I have been following the arguements on the "Missing Commandment" thread. I came accross a statement by Imhotep affirming that Martin Luther deleted 7 books from the bible.

I wonder why it is believed in some quarters that these books were originally part of the Bible and were eventually taken out. It makes more sense to believe that there was an attempt to smuggle these books books into the Holy Scriptures and this attempt was rebounded. Moreso, the Jews to whom the books of the old covenant were entrusted do not regard these books as sacred.

So what are your thoughts on these books (Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, First and Second Maccabees and Additions to Esther and Daniel)? Why do catholics insist on claiming these books are inspired and sacred? Is it because it supports false doctrines like prayer for the dead, purgatory, salvation by works and Mary's sinless birth?

- What stops you (or anybody) from deleting 7 more books, or adding 10 more?
- On what basis do we accept this or that book to be part of the bible?

- Martin Luther tried to downplay the canonicity of the epistle of James, because it does not support his 'sola fide' (by faith alone) stories.

James 2:14-26
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,

16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.


23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Below is a quote from One of the Apocryphal books that some people believe are inspired by God.

Tobit 6:5-8: If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish, and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.

Compare with these:
James 4:7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Nobody needs to tell you which one is inspired by God and which one is not. There is always agreement in the Word of God. Its obvious which one does not agree.

lafile:

Nobody needs to tell you which one is inspired by God and which one is not. There is always agreement in the Word of God. Its obvious which one does not agree.

Then you should ignore the entire bible, if you are worried about consistency. Check this out =>

1.
a)  John 5:31 => If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
b)  John 8:14 => Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.



2.
a)   John 1:18-31 => No one has ever seen God.
b)   Genesis 32:30-31 => I [Jacob] have seen God face to face yet my life is spared,
c)  Exodus 33:23 =>Then I [God] shall take away my hand, and you [Moses] will see my back


3.
a)  James 2:21 => Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
b)  Romans 4:2 => For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

4.
a)   Matthew 5:17 => Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
b)   Ephesians 2:15 => having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.


Many more here => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_consistency_and_the_Bible


You might also want to [carefully, very carefully] sift through this thread by our brother bawomolo =>
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112751.0.html

Oh please!
First, the verse you quoted is actually James 2:21 not 22. And if you had read From Verse 20 -24 you would have understood the entire gist.

And so it goes for the other ones you quoted. Complete reading of the verses would show that they actually agree. Don’t take scripture in isolation and out of context.

And don’t distract from what I am saying. Do you actually truly believe the statement in Tobit 6:5-8 (If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish, and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.)? Do you practice it? Do you know anyone it has worked for?

Have you noticed that the Apocrypha contains Historical Inaccuracies? How many times, in how many places and in how many ways did Antiochus Epiphanes die? Check the Macabees.

lafile:

Oh please!
First, the verse you quoted is actually James 2:21 not 22.

Thanks. I have corrected it.

lafile:

And if you had read From Verse 20 -24 you would have understood the entire gist.

And so it goes for the other ones you quoted. Complete reading of the verses would show that they actually agree. Don’t take scripture in isolation and out of context.

Did you also take Tobit 6:5-8 in context??

lafile:

And don’t distract from what I am saying. Do you actually truly believe the statement in Tobit 6:5-8 (If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish, and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.)? Do you practice it? Do you know anyone it has worked for?

Have you noticed that the Apocrypha contains Historical Inaccuracies? How many times, in how many places and in how many ways did Antiochus Epiphanes die? Check the Macabees.

The other books (which you cram with so much gusto) also contain such inaccuracies. Do some research. I have given you enough links to follow.

Really? There is a difference between percieved inaccuracies and blatant lies. There is a difference between what is recorded in the Bible and unrecorded in secular history and statements made in the apocrypha that are historically untrue.

For Example the book of Judith starts with "In the twelfth year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, who reigned over the Assyrians in Nineveh,". But that statement is a lie.

Oh, I just discovered a statement of profound truth form the Apocrypha.

"Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good; and it is a woman who brings shame and disgrace." Sirach 42:14

@poster
The first question you should ask yourself is "how did the bible come about?" well i would answer the question for you, the bible is a collection of several books (about 65 in number) written over a period of six thousand years by several different authors. some of the books are historical records, some are poetry/ literature, some are prophetic while some are law books, the bible is very diverse. the bible did not come into existence until around the year 400AD when the catholic church decided to put together all relevant writtings related to christianity to assist the christian faithful in understanding their faith. It is true that the original bible compiled by the church at that time did contain this seven books (tobit e.t.c) it is also true that the books were later removed because subsequent people that reviewed the original bible agreed that those books had little or no spiritual value to us as christians. I know most of us christians believe the bible to be infallible, even though we don't even understand the origins of the bible. my submission is that even though the bible contains a lot of the word of God, you cannot deny that there is a human element to it. it is this human element that is responsible for this inconsistencies people perceive. it is also this human element that allowed the seven books to be initially included in the bible which was later removed. so saying someone was trying to smuggle the books in to the bible does not make any sense, the books were there originally. You are just being very protective of the bible as you know it.

@ KunleOshob.
Ok, maybe 'smuggle' was the wrong word to use.
The part of the bible christians call the old testament was originally given to Jews. These Jews accepted 39 of them as scripture. After the destruction of the Temple in AD70 by Rome, the Jews decided to once and for all put into one volume all inspired books. This they did in AD 90 and it only included 39 books. The books of the Apocrypha first appeared as part of scripture when the Old Testament was translated into Greek (Septuagint). Note that these book were in existence for hundreds of years before this.

You are right in saying "it is also this human element (fallibility) that allowed the seven books to be initially included in the bible which was later removed". However i often wondered some people (The Council of Trent 1546)decided to include it in the bible even when it was clear to all that it shouldn't be. All the criteria used for declaring a book as canon when applied to the apocrypha showed them as uninspired. So why add them to the bible? Maybe it is being used to uphold ungodly satanic doctrines and traditions that have no basis in the Bible. The Council of Trent was held at a time of the reformation. Moreso, i believe the word of God to be infallible. Adding books like Judith to the Bible is to me an insult.

The essence of my post is for someone to please give me a good reason why these books should be in the bible. They dont make good history books, much less the inspired word of God.

Tobit 6:5-8: If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish, and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and [size=20pt]never come again anymore[/size].

It cant be this easy, haba!

lafile:

Below is a quote from One of the Apocryphal books that some people believe are inspired by God.
Tobit 6:5-8: If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish, and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.

   which type of fish would be better to use? mackerel, red snapper, tilapia or haddock? 

  I remember the first time I read those words, part of the catholic scriptures, I was shocked and amused, that anyone would take those seriously and not immediately think something is wrong.

Nobody needs to tell you which one is inspired by God and which one is not. There is always agreement in the Word of God. Its obvious which one does not agree.

  I had asked brotha Imhotep once if one part of their scripture can contradict another part, why parts of their canon contradict each other, like the above, directly contradicting the word in James, and parts of the scriptures that teach God only forgives sins, etc. . . .he directed me to this link:
  --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_consistency_and_the_Bible.

and I quote: "The Roman Catholic Christian view (especially since the Second Vatican Council) holds that the Bible is inerrant only in the things that God intended to reveal, the inconsistencies being deemed not to belong to these, or being deemed to be figurative and/or allegory."

  so in other words the catholic church believes the parts that contradict were not "intended to be revealed by God", they believe those parts are only figurative and not meant to be taken literally - very convenient if you ask me!  Imhotep pls correct me if I'm paraphrasing wrong

A_K_O:

It can't be this easy, haba!

  why not?  me I'm going to stock my freezer full of all kinds of fish, ready to be smoked or grilled at short notice. Evil spirits BEWARE!!!

@lafile
thanx for your correction and further enlightenment, but that does not take away the fact that the bible was written and compiled by Man. how are we sure that all the other books contain the perfect will of God has the bible as we know it was compiled by man with all our biases and imperfections. Obviously the people that decided to include tobit and co also had their biases.
I still think we as christians beleive in ur sub concious that the bible fully inspired by God, hence it must be the perfect truth. I don't agree with this line of thinking, i think there is an human angle to it. hence the few inconsistentsy people refer to.

JeSoul:

which type of fish would be better to use? mackerel, red snapper, tilapia or haddock? 

ROTFLMAOPIMP!!!!

LOLOLOLOLOL OOOOHHHH SOOOO LOUD AT IGNORANCE.

I wonder how you actually praise God when you spend majority of your time looking for flaws in the Catholic church.
My dear you have lost the focus you claim to have.

God ordered the destruction of mankind, does that seem like a merciful God? Don't compare books of the old with the new, let's compare it with the old.
Dear go and read the book of Tobith well.

Look at all these self righteous people. There is never a time that you are wrong.

You people wonder why atheists and muuuslims won't turn to Jesus.

Sisikill:

ROTFLMAOPIMP!!!!

Sisikill, LOL . . .seriously oh, me I want to know. Can any catholic please tell me which kind of fish is best to use to drive away evil spirits?

Lady,
you can feign laughter all you want YOUR scriptures are staring at you right in the face. Have you nothing to say about it? that you are taught by catholic scriptures to smoke fish body parts in order to drive away evil spirits?

~Lady~:

LOLOLOLOLOL OOOOHHHH SOOOO LOUD AT IGNORANCE.

your own ignorance?

your own ignorance?

Nope, yours and the rest of your members. My dear don't come to preach to me. I have been in your shoes, I was a protestant. I said the same things that you were saying until I saw my mistake. So trust me, I am not the one for you to try to move from the Catholic Church. I certainly won't be a protestant, NEVER.

I at least don't speak out of ignorance. I at least don't speak out of hatred. I have been both ways, the Protestant way where I CONDEMNED God's people and myself in the process. Then I became a Catholic. Took my time to study the church and made up my mind. So I know what I'm talking about.

Look else where.

My people have cleverly avoided  the issues I raised earlier. I repost, if consistency is the criterion for selecting canonical books, how do these play out =>

1.
a)  John 5:31 => If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
b)  John 8:14 => Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.



2.
a)   John 1:18-31 => No one has ever seen God.
b)   Genesis 32:30-31 => I [Jacob] have seen God face to face yet my life is spared,
c)  Exodus 33:23 =>Then I [God] shall take away my hand, and you [Moses] will see my back


3.
a)  James 2:21 => Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
b)  Romans 4:2 => For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

4.
a)   Matthew 5:17 => Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
b)   Ephesians 2:15 => having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.


Many more here => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_consistency_and_the_Bible


You might also want to [carefully, very carefully] sift through this thread by our brother bawomolo =>
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112751.0.html

Jesoul:
so in other words the catholic church believes the parts that contradict were not "intended to be revealed by God", they believe those parts are only figurative and not meant to be taken literally   - very convenient if you ask me!   Imhotep please correct me if I'm paraphrasing wrong

And what do the protestants say about the parts that contradict?  Do they plan to delete them too?

@lafile
You forgot to compare these.

Tobit 4:16 => "Give to the hungry some of your bread, and to the naked some of your clothing. Whatever you have left over, give away as alms; and do not begrudge the alms you give


Matthew 25:35-36 =>
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

@lafile
You also skipped comparing these

Ecclesiasticus (a.k.a Sirach) 2:1-5
1   My son, when you come to serve the LORD, prepare yourself for trials.
2  Be sincere of heart and steadfast, undisturbed in time of adversity.
3   Cling to him, forsake him not; thus will your future be great.
4  Accept whatever befalls you, in crushing misfortune be patient;
5  For in fire gold is tested, and worthy men in the crucible of humiliation.


James 1:2-4
2  Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials, 
3  for you know that the testing  of your faith produces perseverance.
4  And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing

@ those it concerns:


[size=20pt]It is very very unwise to suggest that GOD ALMIGHTY contradicts Himself in His word. It is blasphemous and it does'nt make Him happy.[/size]

It is one thing to admit you don't understand something or that in your opinion, something contradicts itself and pray that God reveals it to you which ever way possible. But to suggest that God contradicts Himself, No No NO!!!!!

imhotep:

And what do the protestants say about the parts that contradict? Do they plan to delete them too?

Nope brotha, I have yet to come across ANYWHERE in our 66-book bible that contradicts another part.
The only contradictions are found in the extra-biblical books that the catholic church has erroneously labelled scripture. Like AKO said, and I've mentioned to you before, God cannot contradict Himself, it is ludicrous to even think that.

A_K_O:

@ those it concerns:
[size=20pt]It is very very unwise to suggest that GOD ALMIGHTY contradicts Himself in His word. It is blasphemous and it does'nt make Him happy.[/size]

It is one thing to admit you don't understand something or that in your opinion, something contradicts itself and pray that God reveals it to you which ever way possible. But to suggest that God contradicts Himself, No No NO!!!!!

A word is enuff for the wise _{I hope}

LOLOLOLOL


You people forgot to check the ones that didn't contradict. Incase you guys forget the atheist and muuuslims without the spirit say that the Bible contradicts, infact there's a thread for it. You guys are here trying to prove them right. Note that they didn't quote anything from the missing books in the Catholic Bible but those from the protestant Bible.

My dears God is not contradictory, period. The books don't contradict anything in the New Testament. Don't forget it is the New testament. The ones you all speak of are of the Old testament.

Compare those books to the Old Testament.

A_K_O:

@ those it concerns:


[size=20pt]It is very very unwise to suggest that GOD ALMIGHTY contradicts Himself in His word. It is blasphemous and it does'nt make Him happy.[/size]

It is one thing to admit you don't understand something or that in your opinion, something contradicts itself and pray that God reveals it to you which ever way possible. But to suggest that God contradicts Himself, No No NO!!!!!

Jesoul:
The only contradictions are found in the extra-biblical books that the catholic church has erroneously labelled scripture. Like AKO said, and I've mentioned to you before, God cannot contradict Himself, it is ludicrous to even think that.

@A_K_O and Jesoul

My brother and sister, the verses speak for themselves. You guys are making dogmatic statements.

1.
a) 2 Kings 2:11 => "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
b) John 3:13 => "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, , the Son of Man."


2.
a) PRO 26:4 => Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
b) PRO 26:5 => Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Let us now cross-reference SOME parts of the deleted books that agree with the NT:

1.
a) Sirach 2:15 => Those who fear the LORD disobey not his words; those who love him keep his ways.
b) John 14:23 => Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:


2.
a) Sirach 3:18 => Humble yourself the more, the greater you are, and you will find favor with God.
b) Matthew 2:12 => And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted

3.
a) Sirach 5:1 => Rely not on your wealth; say not: "I have the power."
b) Luke 12:19-20 => And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

4.
a) Sirach 7: 14 => Thrust not yourself into the deliberations of princes, and repeat not the words of your prayer.
b) Matthew 6:7 => But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking



5.
a) Sirach 7:35 => Neglect not to visit the sick-- for these things you will be loved.
b) Matthew 25:36 => I was sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came unto me.

6.
a) Sirach 18:12 => [The Lord is] Reproving, admonishing, teaching, as a shepherd guides his flock;
b) John 10:11 => I am the[b] good shepherd[/b]: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep

7.
a) Sirach 27:6 => The fruit of a tree shows the care it has had; so too does a man's speech disclose the bent of his mind.
b) Matthew 7:20 => Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

8.
a) Tobit 12:15 => I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord."
b) Rev 8:2 => And I saw the seven angels that stand before God; and there were given unto them seven trumpets

9.
a) Wisdom 3:8 => They [the just] shall judge nations and rule over peoples, and the LORD shall be their King forever.
b) 1 Cor 6:2 => Or know ye not that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world is judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

10.
a) Sirach 35:8 => With each contribution show a[b] cheerful countenance, and pay your tithes in a spirit of joy[/b].
b) 2 Cor 9:7 => [Let] each man [do] according as he hath purposed in his heart: not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

imhotep:

@A_K_O and Jesoul

My brother and sister, the verses speak for themselves. You guys are making dogmatic statements.

Well, I've just discovered among other things you doubt the integrity and reliability of God Almighty, that he would be so foolish to contradict Himself, that you could have even done a better job than Him im writing the bible. Oh, He was so silly to put 'contradicting' scriptures in the bible. Isn't it? This is not dogmatic, right?


I told you, if you don't understand why they are like that, ask for wisdom. He said He will give you freely. It CERTAINLY cannot be that He contradicts Himself. Like you say, learn to live with it.

A_K_O:

Well, I've just discovered among other things you doubt the integrity and reliability of God Almighty, that he would be so foolish to contradict Himself, that you could have even done a better job than Him im writing the bible. Oh, He was so silly to put 'contradicting' scriptures in the bible. Isn't it? This is not dogmatic, right?


I told you, if you don't understand why they are like that, ask for wisdom. He said He will give you freely. It CERTAINLY cannot be that He contradicts Himself. Like you say, learn to live with it.

More dogma?

imhotep:

More dogma?

Bros you hav'nt said anything. I am dogmatic enough to believe that God CANNOT contradict Hmself because He is not DUMB. Everything He does does not have to make sense to us anyway; and sometimes everything people do does not have to make sense to others. The fact that it does not make sense does not make it wrong.

Abraham for instance, must have looked like a dogmatic slowpoke when he went about telling people that His 90yr old wife was going to have a baby, that his 100yr old self would be the father of many nations, without a child at the time. It didn't make sense when Noah was building the ark and those who chose not to believe paid dearly for it. It doesnt make sense for a virgin to conceive, neither does it make sense for a used tomb to be empty.

Cheer up bro, because the scriptures look contradictory does not make God wrong, and does not make His words wrong. I'm dogmatic enough to believe this particular fact with all my heart.

A_K_O:

Bros you hav'nt said anything. I am dogmatic enough to believe that God CANNOT contradict Hmself because He is not DUMB. Everything He does does not have to make sense to us anyway; and sometimes everything people do does not have to make sense to others. The fact that it does not make sense does not make it wrong.

Abraham for instance, must have looked like a dogmatic slowpoke when he went about telling people that His 90yr old wife was going to have a baby, that his 100yr old self would be the father of many nations, without a child at the time. It didn't make sense when Noah was building the ark and those who chose not to believe paid dearly for it. It doesnt make sense for a virgin to conceive, neither does it make sense for a used tomb to be empty.

Cheer up bro, because the scriptures look contradictory does not make God wrong, and does not make His words wrong. I'm dogmatic enough to believe this particular fact with all my heart.

I have been expecting a verse from the bible that says (words to the effect that) "this bible CANNOT contradict itself". I am yet to see this.

Afterall, we are operating in the realm of "sola scriptura". Not so?

In other words => How does "sola scriptura" support all the dogma you have posted so far?

What did i just read?

imhotep:

I have been expecting a verse from the bible that says (words to the effect that) the bible CANNOT contradict itself I

.

Do you know the meaning of the word contradict? My dictionary gives meanings including 'disagree with' and 'say opposite to'. Do you actually believe that the WORD OF GOD can actually disagree with itself or are my eyes deceiving me? Do you need a verse to tell you the WORD OF GOD (in essence, God Himself, because what He says represents who He is) cannot contradict itself? Its like God saying 'A' in one place and then saying 'B' in another place, when A and B cannot both be true. Since one of A or B must therefore be a lie, it can only mean one of two things. Either God is a liar ( Remember Num 23:19?) or one of the statements (A or B) was not made by God.