Greetings,

I see a lot of questions on here about original sin, etc, but none of them touch on the point that as a believer has always bugged me so I've decided to ask myself.

We are told in the bible that God created us in his own image to be perfect. Adam and Eve were given freewill and under temptation from the devil they disobeyed God so their downfall is their own fault. God has no blame. He is not the author of sin.

But what confuses me is that if God made us in our entirety then doesn't that mean that he gave us the capacity of disobedience? And subsequently the devil as well? If not there where did this ability come from? It cannot have come from any other than God surely because then he wouldn't be the complete creator. So it has always seemed to me that even though Adam and Eve made a choice to sin, as we do today, the ability to even consider such a choice came from God. In Romans there is a passage that goes "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" Now this is used in a different context but it also tells us that we are moulded by God to do his will and that he sometimes wills us to do dishonour, as we see with Pharaoh. I can foresee that someone will argue that Pharaoh had already hardened his heart so God just used that for a purpose so please remember my original question. Where did this ability to disobey God's will come from? If he is the creator of all things didn't it come from him?

This has been confusing me for a long time so would love some good answers. I used to go to a bible study group that was great but didn't really offer much on this subject.

Thanks in advance and please no petty debates

from the devil's workshop ofcourse.

If God took away the ability to think and choose our lifestyles, then we wouldn't be the intellectual and spiritual beings that we are, which of course was the intention of god(let us make man in our own image...Genesis 1:26 ). We wouldn't be any different from animals who just take nature as it is, behave according to instincts and never according to logics and meanings.

We(Adam) made a bad choice in the beginning, by choosing to live according to the value system of the devil(tree of knowledge of good and evil...) instead of the mindset of god(of every tree being good...Genesis 1:31 ). So by Adam choosing this tree of knowledge of good and evil it became human nature\mindset, thus the origins of sin, bitterness, conflicts, diseases and ultimately death.

Note that this tree of knowledge of good and evil is not science, as some people have erroneously interpreted it. Rather, It is the mindset that tells you that god did not create everything good, that some of god's works were good and some were evil and must be avoided. this is contrary to god's wisdom(God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good...Genesis 1:31 ). This was actually the laws of moses in the beginning when it became human nature\mindset and is why the Law is always saying Thou shalt not..., thou shalt not...

So the purpose of christ's dying and resurrection is to legally abolish this law(knowledge of good and evil) and for us to revert-back(repent) to the original mindset of god, ie: that there is NO SIN in nature(Genesis 1:31 ). All things are pure to him that is pure(Titus 1:15 ).

The bible doesnt say God created man perfect.

It says God saw His work and it was good.

^^^

So was man not part of his work??

i was referring to this statement by the op:

We are told in the bible that God created us in his own image to be perfect

this is the original passage in Gen 1 with the exact words:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NIV

And God saw that it was good

repeated each time God created.



vs 31:

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good

good and very good in total. Not "perfect".


Gen 2:

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone

first mention of "not good", and it was in reference to the man's being alone.

so, in essence, God was fully aware of the potential for things to go wrong, meaning he knew the tempter would come. And created man specifically with the capacity to choose between good and evil.

okeyxyz: ^^^

So was man not part of his work??

i agree with your response.

my post was for the op.

Hallo Nk,

Interesting thought but what exactly do you mean by:

Nkeon:
Thanks in advance and please no petty debates

I guess you are not ready for a proper discourse...


#Why even bother creating the thread?

Nkeon: Greetings,

I see a lot of questions on here about original sin, etc, but none of them touch on the point that as a believer has always bugged me so I've decided to ask myself.

We are told in the bible that God created us in his own image to be perfect. Adam and Eve were given freewill and under temptation from the devil they disobeyed God so their downfall is their own fault. God has no blame. He is not the author of sin.

But what confuses me is that if God made us in our entirety then doesn't that mean that he gave us the capacity of disobedience? And subsequently the devil as well? If not there where did this ability come from? It cannot have come from any other than God surely because then he wouldn't be the complete creator. So it has always seemed to me that even though Adam and Eve made a choice to sin, as we do today, the ability to even consider such a choice came from God. In Romans there is a passage that goes "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" Now this is used in a different context but it also tells us that we are moulded by God to do his will and that he sometimes wills us to do dishonour, as we see with Pharaoh. I can foresee that someone will argue that Pharaoh had already hardened his heart so God just used that for a purpose so please remember my original question. Where did this ability to disobey God's will come from? If he is the creator of all things didn't it come from him?

This has been confusing me for a long time so would love some good answers. I used to go to a bible study group that was great but didn't really offer much on this subject.

Thanks in advance and please no petty debates

ur question shows a leang twrds a partculr disposition.
Even if u hav no satisfactory answer look at contrdctions frm ur assuption.

1.) all things come frm God. Includg d tot to dsobey him.
2.) adam was not the originatr of the disobedient tot tht led 2 sin.
3.) this tot entered adams mind and adam executed it.
4.) God put this tot in adam,since God originates all thngs.
5.) based on 4 adam is innocent of d tot he possessed and hence innocent of d action he was guilty of.
6.) God judged adam 4 d evil tot tht originated frm God.
7.) God is inconsistent ,based on 6,
he orignates evil, implants it in adam,
who executes it not knowg he's tempted by God, God arrves after adam has fallen fr his temptation.catches adam red handed and whoops adams asss!

U only need 2 read d bible to see ur errors.

1.) if God is guilty of sin,He cant b Fair,holy and Just.
2.) if God is guilty of sin , He cant Judge satan or man of sin. With wat standard?
3.) the integrity,power of God's wrd rests on his purity and holiness.
If God is sinful, his wrd would lack power.
And if his wrd lacks power, the physcl universe wud collapse cuz the bible says the wrld is held together by the wrd of his power.

4.) if God sins they wont b a trinity but a duality or duo.
Cuz the other members of d God head cant felloship with sin.

5.) if God sins he'll die.
Cuz d wages of sin is death.

6.) if God sins heaven wud bcome corrupt,
thts y in revelations certain class of beings arent allowed into heaven.
In otherwrds, impure beings.

7.) if God sins then He by nature isnt all sufficient , he has an inadequacy he needs to fill.
E.g Satan, wasnt all powerful,so he sought to unseat God to get More power.
Adam and Eve wanted More knowledge.
Judas wanted more money..
What More does God want,tht wud make him sin?

8.) if God were to sin,He isnt omniscient.
Satan ddnt know he'll be kicked out of heaven,b4 his rebellion.
Adam ddnt know he'll lose his dominion to satan.
Achan ddnt know he'll lose his life
fr stealg Gold
etc
But if any of these beings knew how it wud end for them they wudnt hav sinned.


9.) if God tmpted man to sin, then
went thru all d xpense of sendg Jesus to die and get humiliated, and watched the atrocities of sinful men thruout the ages,like hitler,abacha,idi amin,stalin,etc. And restarted d process again by drowning out the first corrupt sets of humans,
then He is a Fool.
Only a fool and sadist wud cause so much pain intentionally then go to great expensve lenghts to clean it up.

But God isnt such.

10.) there many scriptures shwg God cant lie, there is darkness found in him,
he tempts no man,
he rejoices in d prosperity of the saints etc

okeyxyz: If God took away the ability to think and choose our lifestyles, then we wouldn't be the intellectual and spiritual beings that we are, which of course was the intention of god(let us make man in our own image...Genesis 1:26 ). We wouldn't be any different from animals who just take nature as it is, behave according to instincts and never according to logics and meanings.

We(Adam) made a bad choice in the beginning, by choosing to live according to the value system of the devil(tree of knowledge of good and evil...) instead of the mindset of god(of every tree being good...Genesis 1:31 ). So by Adam choosing this tree of knowledge of good and evil it became human nature\mindset, thus the origins of sin, bitterness, conflicts, diseases and ultimately death.

Note that this tree of knowledge of good and evil is not science, as some people have erroneously interpreted it. Rather, It is the mindset that tells you that god did not create everything good, that some of god's works were good and some were evil and must be avoided. this is contrary to god's wisdom(God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good...Genesis 1:31 ). This was actually the laws of moses in the beginning when it became human nature\mindset and is why the Law is always saying Thou shalt not..., thou shalt not...

So the purpose of christ's dying and resurrection is to legally abolish this law(knowledge of good and evil) and for us to revert-back(repent) to the original mindset of god, ie: that there is NO SIN in nature(Genesis 1:31 ). All things are pure to him that is pure(Titus 1:15 ).

Thanks for responding but it doesn't answer my question at all. Where did we get the ability to make bad choices?

striktlymi: Hallo Nk,

Interesting thought but what exactly do you mean by:




I guess you are not ready for a proper discourse...


#Why even bother creating the thread?

There is a big distinction between a proper discourse and a petty debate. A lot of threads on this forum start off well then go off topic and result in insults swapped between a few individuals. I'm sure you would agree that isn't a good debate. A good debate will have disagreements for sure but will tackle the subject.

Please share any thoughts you have on the OP. Thanks!

Tpfkakambo:

ur question shows a leang twrds a partculr disposition.
Even if u hav no satisfactory answer look at contrdctions frm ur assuption.

1.) all things come frm God. Includg d tot to dsobey him.
2.) adam was not the originatr of the disobedient tot tht led 2 sin.
3.) this tot entered adams mind and adam executed it.
4.) God put this tot in adam,since God originates all thngs.
5.) based on 4 adam is innocent of d tot he possessed and hence innocent of d action he was guilty of.
6.) God judged adam 4 d evil tot tht originated frm God.
7.) God is inconsistent ,based on 6,
he orignates evil, implants it in adam,
who executes it not knowg he's tempted by God, God arrves after adam has fallen fr his temptation.catches adam red handed and whoops adams asss!

U only need 2 read d bible to see ur errors.

1.) if God is guilty of sin,He cant b Fair,holy and Just.
2.) if God is guilty of sin , He cant Judge satan or man of sin. With wat standard?
3.) the integrity,power of God's wrd rests on his purity and holiness.
If God is sinful, his wrd would lack power.
And if his wrd lacks power, the physcl universe wud collapse cuz the bible says the wrld is held together by the wrd of his power.

4.) if God sins they wont b a trinity but a duality or duo.
Cuz the other members of d God head cant felloship with sin.

5.) if God sins he'll die.
Cuz d wages of sin is death.

6.) if God sins heaven wud bcome corrupt,
thts y in revelations certain class of beings arent allowed into heaven.
In otherwrds, impure beings.

7.) if God sins then He by nature isnt all sufficient , he has an inadequacy he needs to fill.
E.g Satan, wasnt all powerful,so he sought to unseat God to get More power.
Adam and Eve wanted More knowledge.
Judas wanted more money..
What More does God want,tht wud make him sin?

8.) if God were to sin,He isnt omniscient.
Satan ddnt know he'll be kicked out of heaven,b4 his rebellion.
Adam ddnt know he'll lose his dominion to satan.
Achan ddnt know he'll lose his life
fr stealg Gold
etc
But if any of these beings knew how it wud end for them they wudnt hav sinned.


9.) if God tmpted man to sin, then
went thru all d xpense of sendg Jesus to die and get humiliated, and watched the atrocities of sinful men thruout the ages,like hitler,abacha,idi amin,stalin,etc. And restarted d process again by drowning out the first corrupt sets of humans,
then He is a Fool.
Only a fool and sadist wud cause so much pain intentionally then go to great expensve lenghts to clean it up.

But God isnt such.

10.) there many scriptures shwg God cant lie, there is darkness found in him,
he tempts no man,
he rejoices in d prosperity of the saints etc

Well I wasn't making those assumptions. As explained, I'm a bit confused. However, I see your point on the contradictions but then what gave us the ability to sin? I think that's what I'm unsure about.

tpia@:


so, in essence, God was fully aware of the potential for things to go wrong, meaning he knew the tempter would come. And created man specifically with the capacity to choose between good and evil.

Ok, but again my question is where did the ability come from? I mean where did the devil get his ability for rebellion? You seem to be saying that God created us to choose between good and evil so was this the case for the devil as well?

Nkeon:
Thanks for responding but it doesn't answer my question at all. Where did we get the ability to make bad choices?

I already answered you in my first paragraph by:

okeyxyz: If God took away the ability to think and choose our lifestyles, then we wouldn't be the intellectual and spiritual beings that we are, which of course was the intention of god(let us make man in our own image...Genesis 1:26 ). We wouldn't be any different from animals who just take nature as it is, behave according to instincts and never according to logics and meanings.

In other words: this ability came from God.

Nkeon:

There is a big distinction between a proper discourse and a petty debate. A lot of threads on this forum start off well then go off topic and result in insults swapped between a few individuals. I'm sure you would agree that isn't a good debate. A good debate will have disagreements for sure but will tackle the subject.

Please share any thoughts you have on the OP. Thanks!

Hey Nk,

Since you have cleared up your meaning of the phrase: "Petty debate"...I guess I can now share my thoughts on the OP...

okeyxyz:

I already answered you in my first paragraph by:


In other words: this ability came from God.

Ok. That's the answer I often come up with as well thought most other Christians I have spoken to have said this cannot be so. I suppose the next question would be why...

Nkeon:

Ok. That's the answer I often come up with as well thought most other Christians I have spoken to have said this cannot be so. I suppose the next question would be why...

Like I said before in my first paragraph; the ability to consider and choose your own path is what makes us the intellectual and spiritual beings that we are. Otherwise we are no different from animals. Mainstream Christians don't like to look at god this way(as the source of this ability to choose wrong) because it goes against their own human sentiments of morality.

Nkeon:

Ok, but again my question is where did the ability come from? I mean where did the devil get his ability for rebellion? You seem to be saying that God created us to choose between good and evil so was this the case for the devil as well?

If God created us to choose between both good and evil so that He can honour those that chose well and punish those who chose poorly, why would bother going through this whole process when He already knows the outcome. He knows the good from the evil so why go through the process of life, judgement and punishment? Why not just go straight to judgement and punishment and skip the life part?

Now what have we here?...

Nkeon: Greetings,

I see a lot of questions on here about original sin, etc, but none of them touch on the point that as a believer has always bugged me so I've decided to ask myself.

Okay, let's see what this 'bug' is...

Nkeon:
We are told in the bible that God created us in his own image to be perfect.

Yes, God did create us in his image but it would be wrong to say we were created to be perfect...however, it is proper to say that we were created with the ability to attain perfection but not that we were created to be perfect.

Nkeon:
Adam and Eve were given freewill and under temptation from the devil they disobeyed God so their downfall is their own fault. God has no blame. He is not the author of sin.

Correct!

Nkeon:
But what confuses me is that if God made us in our entirety then doesn't that mean that he gave us the capacity of disobedience?

The fact that we are created with free will gives us the ability to choose to either obey or disobey. You would be correct that God did give us the capacity to say NO to him.

Nkeon:
And subsequently the devil as well?

In line with the foregoing, then YES!!!

Nkeon:
If not there where did this ability come from?

From God like I pointed out before.

Nkeon:
It cannot have come from any other than God surely because then he wouldn't be the complete creator.

Gbam!!!

Nkeon:
So it has always seemed to me that even though Adam and Eve made a choice to sin, as we do today, the ability to even consider such a choice came from God.

Yes!!!

Nkeon:
In Romans there is a passage that goes "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" Now this is used in a different context but it also tells us that we are moulded by God to do his will and that he sometimes wills us to do dishonour, as we see with Pharaoh.

The conclusion there is not accurate...there is a need here to understand what sacred scriptures is trying to let on. Like you rightly said, the ability to do good or bad is from God through the freedom he gives to everyone...

The passage is telling us that whatever we choose to do...whether good or bad, is done because God allowed us to do it. He has the ability to disallow it but he choose not to because doing so would go against one of his fundamental principles: Allowing man to choose...

Now, if God can stop us from doing wrong or right by depriving us from this ability to choose, but decides not to then whatever we choose to do is deemed to have been done by God because he refused to tamper with our freedom.

In a nutshell...the passage is saying that God gave man free will, God knows what man will do with his freedom and God will not deprive us of this freedom to choose either good or bad...

Nkeon:
I can foresee that someone will argue that Pharaoh had already hardened his heart so God just used that for a purpose so please remember my original question. Where did this ability to disobey God's will come from? If he is the creator of all things didn't it come from him?

Like I said before, the ability to choose comes from God but God does not force anyone to choose good or bad. That we do on our own. Note that this ability God gave us is a good thing...