ziga:

What studies have been done to show that they are not effective CEOs despite all the inadequacies that Nigeria presents to them

What studies have you done to infer that other members of the health care team won't do better?

drered: I won't drop something that is relevant to the point I'm making cuz the number of ignoramuses here are enormous hence the need for proper education. I really don't care much about who becomes CEO, matter of fact in the whole fracas between NMA and JOHESU the least of my concern is who gets to head hospitals. I'd just prefer it was any competent person with required qualification and experience .. But then when the competency of other professions are questioned in trying to prove a point then things have to be set straight..

The competency of leaders are justly and unjustly criticized everyday.

But just like you said, not every ignoramus who says something is making sense.

We don't change institutions just because some "ignoramus" believes something that he does not even understand.

Let us look at all the problems with Nigeria's healthcare or even with Nigerian hospitals.

Is it due to the Doctors or the CMDs?

drered: What studies have you done to infer that other members of the health care team won't do better?

And from what you say here, why should we change the system when we "don't have anything to say that "other members of the health care team won't do better"

Why are you jumping to a solution when you haven't identified the problem?

If you take your car to a mechanic, do you buy new equipment without knowing that they will actually work for your situation?
You sound like you are a smart guy but your logic is all over the place.

lol. we are all guilty of the bolded. The best should head. As for bad belle, I comment my reserve.

ziga:

It is funny how you choose to be rational whenever it suites you.

I love how you analyzed the article to show that maybe you can't prove cause and effect from it.

But please show me what studies you have done to show that non-medical CEOs are the solution to Nigeria's health problems.

Please prove it to me after correcting for "extraneous variables"

All this shout about CMD or no CMD is bourne out of bad belle.

Let us work together to improve healthcare in Nigeria.

Let us fulfill our individual responsibilities. Nobody should do more than he has been trained to do. And if you no fit, commot for road!!!

ziga:

The competency of leaders are justly and unjustly criticized everyday.

But just like you said, not every ignoramus who says something is making sense.

We don't change institutions just because some "ignoramus" believes something that he does not even understand.

Let us look at all the problems with Nigeria's healthcare or even with Nigerian hospitals.

Is it due to the Doctors or the CMDs?



And from what you say here, why should we change the system when we "don't have anything to say that "other members of the health care team won't do better"

Why are you jumping to a solution when you haven't identified the problem?

If you take your car to a mechanic, do you buy new equipment without knowing that they will actually work for your situation?
You sound like you are a smart guy but your logic is all over the place.

The dots can't all be connected for you sir.. Part of the problem with the health care system is the repression of a greater number of the members of the healthcare team and if you know anything about management you'd know this will greatly affect productivity and output. When a people are made to feel that they are not-so-relevant and they can't and should not reach the peak of their careers just cuz the doctors want it that way their will be a problem, a big one sir. Why are doctors not agitating and going on strike cuz of the extremely poor quality of care they are forced to give due to lack of funds to the hospital? Or the dearth of machines and equipment to make diagnosis and carry out certain procedures? So making the position of CEO exclusive to doctors has fixed one of our many healthcare problems? All you saying here is you don't change institution when it doesn't suit you but then you'd clamour for changes like the creation of surgeon general, the CONMESS salary scale from the previously unified one and all the other systems that centres on the doctor. Talk about double standards..

drered: Think sir, the dots can't all be connected for you.. Part of the problem of the health care system is the repression of a greater number of the members of the healthcare team. And if you know anything about management you'd know this will greatly affect productivity and output. When a people are made to feel that they are not-so-relevant and they can't and should not reach the peak of their careers just cuz the doctors want it that way their will be a problem, a big one sir. Why are doctors not agitating and going on strike cuz of the extremely poor quality of care they are forced to give due to lack of funds to the hospital? Or the dearth of machines and equipment to make diagnosis and carry out certain procedures? So making the position of CEO exclusive to doctors has fixed one of our many healthcare problems ba? All you saying here is you don't change institution when it doesn't suit you but then you'd clamour for changes like the creation of surgeon general, the CONMESS salary scale from the previously unified scale and all the other systems that centres on the doctor. Talk about double standards..

Haba? Here you go again.

Making inferences with no logic.

I have not said anything here. You are the one making all the inferences. All I have said is you can't and shouldn't make a change just because of your feelings about an issue. That is a horrible leader.

Poor judgement, being impulsive, emotional and reactive have never ever made anything better!!!

Can you tell me how Doctors have repressed other health workers, or how they have prevented them from carrying out their healthcare responsibilities.

Or can you tell me how the CMD has prevented nurses from taking care of their patients or Lab scientists from carrying out their duties.

In what ways have the CMDs impeded the development of medicine in Nigeria. And how will things be better if a CEO/manager/administrator is employed. How exactly will they improve the facilities?

I am logical, but if you keep up with your rants, I don't think we can have a rational conversation here.

I have not said anything about a Surgeon general position and how does the creation of CONMESS affect other workers.

Are the Docs/CMD paying their salaries?

ziga:

Haba? Here you go again.

Making inferences with no logic.

I have not said anything here. You are the one making all the inferences. All I have said is you can't and shouldn't make a change just because of your feelings about an issue. That is a horrible leader.

Poor judgement, being impulsive, emotional and reactive have never ever made anything better!!!

Can you tell me how Doctors have repressed other health workers, or how they have prevented them from carrying out their healthcare responsibilities.

Or can you tell me how the CMD has prevented nurses from taking care of their patients or Lab scientists from carrying out their duties.

In what ways have the CMDs impeded the development of medicine in Nigeria. And how will things be better if a CEO/manager/administrator is employed. How exactly will they improve the facilities?

I am logical, but if you keep up with your rants, I don't think we can have a rational conversation here.

I have not said anything about a Surgeon general position and how does the creation of CONMESS affect other workers.

Are the Docs/CMD paying their salaries?

. In your previous post you asked why I was jumping into a solution when there was no problem, well the problem with making the position of CEO exclusive to MD's has been identified and the solution has been proffered in earlier posts. Appointments should be based purely on competency/qualification/leadership skills and this will include other members of the health care team and greatly boost morale except you argue that all this qualities are exclusive to MD's then I have nothing to say further on this. Lol. You are the one not being rational sir, i brought that up cuz it is very relevant to the discussion and it points to the double standards expressly shown by MD's. It affected everyone cuz u singled out two professionals from a pool and agitated for a better welfare package when everyone should have been carried along. Matter of fact that was a major contributing factor to all this brouahaha, JOHESU was created to agitate for a better welfare for its members and in classic NMA style they get involved in trying to counter demands that had been made to their employer, the government by saying it isn't "best" for the patient. The repression is very clear sir. PCN saw what applied in developed countries took a delegate including all the deans of the faculties of pharmacy there, they got back laid a framework for the pharm. D programme that was more clinically oriented since the role of the pharmacist in hospitals is limited to the mechanical dispensing of drugs which is clearly unproductive relative to their academic coverage. They forwarded this to the NUC that gave them an initial go ahead..and then Medical and Dental consultants of Nigeria took PCN to court concerning it saying in explicit terms that it wasn't best for the patients with other doctors stating here that it is the life long goals of other members of the healthcare team to be called doctors and that was what the whole point of the pharm. D programme is.. The consultancy issue by other members of the health care team being blocked by MD's is another example.. Loads of instances but I'd rather stop here. If this isn't clear enough for you or "too emotional" and "impulsive" then I'd rather not go further..

prettyprettywow: That some hospitals are headed by Drs does not mean that it is their birth right. it means that the Drs who are in such positions have the extra requirement to lead the hospital coupled with their medical knowledge (MBA, MHA, and not just MBBS). The medical knowledge is just an added advantage. But here, Nigerian physicians do not want to acquire the relevant requirement before ascending such position. What we are saying is that MBBS is not=CEO. The researcher used the words "non-medical CEOs and professional CEOs". Get the right skills, and you can all line up for the post. If we have a medical worker with good managerial skills, experiences and relevant requirement, then he is welcomed to be CEO. And not a JJC in administration. That's my point.

Nigerians gave the physicians enough time to prove themselves, but they failed. Leadership of the hospital has been in the hands of Nigerian Physicians for decades, and look where they led us (188th out of 190) and you are here quoting research carried out in the developed world

Let me correct something you said. All current CMDS in Nigerian Teaching Hospitals/ Federal Medical Centres have an administration/ management/public health qualification in addition to MBBS and fellowship. Nobody ever said MBBS alone qualifies a Doctor to become CMD/CEO. They do have admin-related qualifications also.
About the ranking of Nigerian health sector you posted above, pls tell me any other sector in the Nigerian economy that is ranked high worldwide? That ranking is a consequence of an overall corrupt system in the WHOLE country and not just the health sector. You can't expect the health sector alone to rise out of corruption when it is an integral part of a corrupt "whole". The health sector will improve as the country gradually drops its corrupt and inefficient practices. To say the least, that argument is getting old. Health administrators would have also been mired in the same country-wide "mess" (not health sector-specific) if they were the ones heading hospitals in Nigeria.

drered: 235 out of 6500 hospitals, a meagre 0.04% is led by physicians and you don't think its for a reason? Even the physicians that lead this hospitals have added qualifications and leadership skills or you think this qualities are by default inherent in doctors? In saner climes they apply what works.. And what works isn't making dr's CEO just cuz they are doctors cuz if that was it, it will be expressed in the number of hospitals led by MD's..

I read an article once that Doctors in the USA shy away from becoming administrators because they earn significantly less during their administrative tenure than when they were doing clinical work. It was posited that the country is trying to change that and this was yielding results as in 2013 (or thereabout...don't crucify me, can't remember the exact year) medical Doctors made up the highest number enrolling for an MBA at Harvard Business School. you can do a google search on it.

Hospital administrators in USA earn very high salary, higher than the Drs. This is one aspect that is driving up the cost of health care in US today. So don't come here and say that Drs earn less as administrators, na big lie. Health workers in US that are interested in administration are getting their MBA, Drs inclusive. I have a friend that is in pharmacy school, but takes classes for her MBA during summer. So when it's time to appoint, the best man will be appointed. Where is it posited that they are trying to change that?

thegeneral84:
I read an article once that Doctors in the USA shy away from becoming administrators because they earn significantly less during their administrative tenure than when they were doing clinical work. It was posited that the country is trying to change that and this was yielding results as in 2013 (or thereabout...don't crucify me, can't remember the exact year) medical Doctors made up the highest number enrolling for an MBA at Harvard Business School. you can do a google search on it.

drered: . In your previous post you asked why I was jumping into a solution when there was no problem, well the problem with making the position of CEO exclusive to MD's has been identified and the solution has been proffered in earlier posts. Appointments should be based purely on competency/qualification/leadership skills and this will include other members of the health care team and greatly boost morale except you argue that all this qualities are exclusive to MD's then I have nothing to say further on this. Lol. You are the one not being rational sir, i brought that up cuz it is very relevant to the discussion and it points to the double standards expressly shown by MD's. It affected everyone cuz u singled out two professionals from a pool and agitated for a better welfare package when everyone should have been carried along. Matter of fact that was a major contributing factor to all this brouahaha, JOHESU was created to agitate for a better welfare for its members and in classic NMA style they get involved in trying to counter demands that had been made to their employer, the government by saying it isn't "best" for the patient. The repression is very clear sir. PCN saw what applied in developed countries took a delegate including all the deans of the faculties of pharmacy there, they got back laid a framework for the pharm. D programme that was more clinically oriented since the role of the pharmacist in hospitals is limited to the mechanical dispensing of drugs which is clearly unproductive relative to their academic coverage. They forwarded this to the NUC that gave them an initial go ahead..and then Medical and Dental consultants of Nigeria took PCN to court concerning it saying in explicit terms that it wasn't best for the patients with other doctors stating here that it is the life long goals of other members of the healthcare team to be called doctors and that was what the whole point of the pharm. D programme is.. The consultancy issue by other members of the health care team being blocked by MD's is another example.. Loads of instances but I'd rather stop here. If this isn't clear enough for you or "too emotional" and "impulsive" then I'd rather not go further..

Please leave all your JOHESU/NMA issues at the door.

I am not interested in all that sh|t.

And if you are interested in patient care/healthcare, you will not be talking politics here.

If you can tell me exactly how a Doctors job has affected other healthworkers jobs please let me know. If not leave all your repression is clear talk. One of the problems with government hospitals is that nobody is nobody's boss. If people were accountable, a lot of the crap that has been happening wouldn't even get to this stage!!!

The FG is the one responsible for making CONMESS/CONHESS, civil service levels or whatever else you choose to argue. So direct your frustrations where it is supposed to go. The FG equally needs CEOs to run their affairs. Haha.

We play politics with everything and then wonder why Nigeria doesn't work. As long as na our pikin, even if him dey lead us enter lagoon!!!

I think we should privatize and let business minded CEOs run the health sector (as well as everything else in Nigeria for that matter) without any FG interference, that way at least we will be able to make better use of our facilities!!!

drered: . In your previous post you asked why I was jumping into a solution when there was no problem, well the problem with making the position of CEO exclusive to MD's has been identified and the solution has been proffered in earlier posts. Appointments should be based purely on competency/qualification/leadership skills and this will include other members of the health care team and greatly boost morale except you argue that all this qualities are exclusive to MD's then I have nothing to say further on this. Lol. You are the one not being rational sir, i brought that up cuz it is very relevant to the discussion and it points to the double standards expressly shown by MD's. It affected everyone cuz u singled out two professionals from a pool and agitated for a better welfare package when everyone should have been carried along. Matter of fact that was a major contributing factor to all this brouahaha, JOHESU was created to agitate for a better welfare for its members and in classic NMA style they get involved in trying to counter demands that had been made to their employer, the government by saying it isn't "best" for the patient. The repression is very clear sir. PCN saw what applied in developed countries took a delegate including all the deans of the faculties of pharmacy there, they got back laid a framework for the pharm. D programme that was more clinically oriented since the role of the pharmacist in hospitals is limited to the mechanical dispensing of drugs which is clearly unproductive relative to their academic coverage. They forwarded this to the NUC that gave them an initial go ahead..and then Medical and Dental consultants of Nigeria took PCN to court concerning it saying in explicit terms that it wasn't best for the patients with other doctors stating here that it is the life long goals of other members of the healthcare team to be called doctors and that was what the whole point of the pharm. D programme is.. The consultancy issue by other members of the health care team being blocked by MD's is another example.. Loads of instances but I'd rather stop here. If this isn't clear enough for you or "too emotional" and "impulsive" then I'd rather not go further..

Nigerians have an ego problem. We love titles.

The title Doctor can be acquired by anybody who fulfills the requirements. Just like Professor.

But in the hospital, the name Doctor is not a title. It is a job description. It also happens to be a title.

For example, if a nurse has a PHD. The nurse can bear the title Doctor. But she is still a nurse in the hospital.

So, how do you identify such a person to patients and other hospital staff without creating chaos.

Anybody can have their PHD or D.Pharm or whatever.

But when you are in the hospital, nobody cares about your titles. Patients want to know who their Doctor or nurse or pharmacist is.

If everybody in the hospital ends up being called Doctor, if a patient asks to speak to his Doctor, then we have to figure out if it is Doctor nurse or Doctor pharmacist or Doctor Doctor.

Abeg, why are we causing all the confusion. How does it matter what title you have. Just do your jobs.

The worst thing is that most health workers are not even doing what their job description states. For example, people don't realize that a Matron should listen to whoever her patient's Doctor is!!!

SMH!!!

The same principle applies to consultancy. Common things, we haven't done, we are talking about consultancy. What are we consultancying for

Simple lab procedures, we can't do. Pharmacists don't realize that they shouldn't dispense prescription meds without a prescription.

Same thing goes to Docs. We are still practicing with the most rudimentary tools, and we think a Surgeon general will be the fix.

Abeg, let us do our simple jobs first!!!

ziga:

Please leave all your JOHESU/NMA issues at the door.

I am not interested in all that sh|t.

And if you are interested in patient care/healthcare, you will not be talking politics here.

If you can tell me exactly how a Doctors job has affected other healthworkers jobs please let me know. If not leave all your repression is clear talk. One of the problems with government hospitals is that nobody is nobody's boss. If people were accountable, a lot of the crap that has been happening wouldn't even get to this stage!!!

The FG is the one responsible for making CONMESS/CONHESS, civil service levels or whatever else you choose to argue. So direct your frustrations where it is supposed to go. The FG equally needs CEOs to run their affairs. Haha.

We play politics with everything and then wonder why Nigeria doesn't work. As long as na our pikin, even if him dey lead us enter lagoon!!!

I think we should privatize and let business minded CEOs run the health sector (as well as everything else in Nigeria for that matter) without any FG interference, that way at least we will be able to make better use of our facilities!!!

Now who has gotten emotional, impulsive and reactive?

ziga:

I think we might be saying the same thing.

Management comes mostly with experience. Added qualifications however will be a bonus.

So, just like the universities are not run by outside CEOs, hospitals shouldn't be run by outside CEOs.

yea ... Exactly!

prettyprettywow: Hospital administrators in USA earn very high salary, higher than the Drs. This is one aspect that is driving up the cost of health care in US today. So don't come here and say that Drs earn less as administrators, na big lie. Health workers in US that are interested in administration are getting their MBA, Drs inclusive. I have a friend that is in pharmacy school, but takes classes for her MBA during summer. So when it's time to appoint, the best man will be appointed. Where is it posited that they are trying to change that?

Pls do a google search on "why few doctors head hospitals in USA" and " role of medical doctor in the medical team (of US, UK, Canada and Australia). U might wanna modify your post after that.