@ Malik

@Bobbyaf,

You haven't brought anything new, but have kept going round in circles and recasting your ideas in new clichés. It's really simple: if Christ is the one who in Daniel 9:26 "shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary", then you're saying that the same Christ is the one called "the abomination of desolation" that stands in "the holy place" in Matthew 24:15!

Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

I am saying nothing of the sort. The text is pretty obvious. It speaks of the Messiah as being cut off, and it also speaks of the other prince whose people would destroy the Jerusalem temple. Besides, I am not concerned about verse 26 as I am concerned about how you see the "he" in verse 27.

Thats my focus. There has never been a qualm between us and verse 26, so why keep referring to it. Lets look agin at verse 27 because that is where the issue lies.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I am saying that both pronouns "he"as seen in "and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" and the "he shall make it desolate is the same Jesus. Although in verse 26 it speaks of the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, in actual reality, it is Jesus who shall make it desolate even until the consummation. What does Jesus have to do with Jerusalem becoming desolate you might ask? Well, it was He who through Daniel had long ago predicted the demise of Jerusalem seeing it is He who sees the future. As long as Jesus is God, and if we are to accept that His word is true, then He is saying in the latter part of verse 27 that any attempt to restore Jerusalem before the end of time would be futile.

Thats why verse 27 says that He(Christ) shall make it desolate, or allow it to remain desolate until the end. This has absolutely nothing to do with Christ being the abomination of desolation, because of allowing the deslation to remain, since as dru already explained that the expression cannot be a person, but a situation.

The word abomination means that situation that is loathsome and disgusting to God or His people, while desolation means a state of emptiness and void.

@Bobbyaf,

There really shouldn't be any prolonged arguments about this issue, unless you just want to hold on to an inconsistent idea without carefully considering the texts in the Scriptures. Dru missed it altogethr and I'm surprised that you're now pandering onto to her misconception that the expression "the abomination of desolation" in Matthew 24:25 refers to a(n) situation/event rather than to a person. How you read a Greek construct is beyond me, and I'll quote it for you again:

Matthew 24:15 -

οταν ουν ιδητε το βδελυγμα της ερημωσεως το ρηθεν δια δανιηλ του προφητου SBεστως TAεστος εν τοπω αγιω ο αναγινωσκων νοειτω.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

You can see that a situation does not "stand in the holy place", and until you calm down and carefully look into Scripture, you'll still keep going round ferreting and substituting inconsistent ideas into the texts. First, it was Christ, then it was a Roman Emperor, . . . now it is a situation. What you fail to see there is that Christ wasn't referring to Himself as the "abomination of desolation" [βδελυγμα της ερημωσεως] that stands in the holy place! Much less was He referring to a situation standing there!

The construct in Greek treats it as a phrasal noun and refers to someone who stands there in the holy place, and to make it unmistakably lucid, Christ points out that He was referring to Daniel's prophecy. When you turn to the prophecy in question in Daniel 9:26-27, there you find again that it was not a situation/event standing in the holy place, but a despicable individual with his army who comes to "destroy the city and the sanctuary" (v. 26).

Quoting Daniel 9:27 -

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Notice carefully that this verse identifies three things that this individual would do:

(a) he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

(b) and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

(c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

You'll find that the "he" in this verse would be pointing to one of the individuals in verse 26 - the Messiah or the prince that shall come. The reason it could not be referring to the Messiah is that in verse 27,

(a) Christ did not confirm a covenant with anyone for one week!

(b) He did not cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease in the midst of the week in question

(c) He did not influence an overspreading of abominations nor make it (the overspread) desolate.

Who then could this verse be referring to? Christ in Matthew 24:15 points out that he is none other than the individual called by the phrasal noun "the abomination of desolation" [βδελυγμα της ερημωσεως] who "stands in the holy place". And what about "the overspreading of desolations"? Look again in Matt. 24:21 - the incomparable tribulation that will take place.

At any rate, when you study the Greek construct (it shouldn't be difficult to do if you're familiar with basic Greek) in Matt. 24:15, you can't sustain the idea that Drusilla put forward advocating the phrasal noun ("the abomination of desolation" as a situation. The word "abomination" in that verse is βδελυγμα = (bdelugma), and does not mean a "situation that is loathsome and disgusting to God or His people." To insist on that is to push an idea not sustained at all in God's Word.

@ Malik

@Bobbyaf,

There really shouldn't be any prolonged arguments about this issue, unless you just want to hold on to an inconsistent idea without carefully considering the texts in the Scriptures.

So why do you keep coming back? Inconsistently you say? Hahaha, you seem to be a joker on top of everything else!

Dru missed it altogethr and I'm surprised that you're now pandering onto to her misconception that the expression "the abomination of desolation" in Matthew 24:25 refers to a(n) situation/event rather than to a person. How you read a Greek construct is beyond me, and I'll quote it for you again:

And how that greek expression translates into a person is just as beyond me! In fact any honest person knows that Jesus was referring to the destruction of the temple in AD70 If you recall what Jesus said to the christians who listened to Him, then you would once and for all exit from your head the notion of a single individual. Let me give you a little context and reminder:

Matthew 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here Jesus is telling His listeners to look out for a sign, being referred to as "the abomination of desolation" that will stand in the Holy place. What does that mean? It means an event that would see the pagan armies of Rome surround the temple walls, which to the jews then was an abomination. This took place in AD66, which gave the true believers ample time to flee the city. In fact the very response of the jewish army revealed how serious a matter it became that warranted a revolt against Rome's first attempt to lay seige. Those who faled to interpret that event and remianed in Jerusalem suffered tremendously.

Of course others interpret that expression as being the Jewish people's abomination that led to their own desolation.

Matthew 24:15 -
οταν ουν ιδητε το βδελυγμα της ερημωσεως το ρηθεν δια δανιηλ του προφητου SBεστως TAεστος εν τοπω αγιω ο αναγινωσκων νοειτω.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

You can see that a situation does not "stand in the holy place", and until you calm down and carefully look into Scripture, you'll still keep going round ferreting and substituting inconsistent ideas into the texts. First, it was Christ, then it was a Roman Emperor, . . . now it is a situation.

Not only are you suffering from amnesia, because no where was it said by me that Christ was the abomination of desolation, but you make up stuff when your argument goes nowhere.

This quote won't make it any more clearer. You're still left with an expression that can only be properly interpreted by what took place in history. What you're trying to do is to give your private interpretation in order to suit what you believe.

What you fail to see there is that Christ wasn't referring to Himself as the "abomination of desolation" [βδελυγμα της ερημωσεως] that stands in the holy place! Much less was He referring to a situation standing there!

So why do you insist that anyone said that Christ is the abomination of desolation?

The construct in Greek treats it as a phrasal noun

Bravo! tell me whats new! 

and refers to someone who stands there in the holy place,

Well, in truth and in fact General Titus and his army did eventually stand in the Holy Place after the city was burned to the ground. So in both instances an event took place.  His soldiers actually placed their pagan symbols and Roman standards in the place where the temple stood. That in itself was considered an abomination under Jewish law.

and to make it unmistakably lucid, Christ points out that He was referring to Daniel's prophecy. When you turn to the prophecy in question in Daniel 9:26-27, there you find again that it was not a situation/event standing in the holy place, but a despicable individual with his army who comes to "destroy the city and the sanctuary" (v. 26).

Let me pull my last scriptural reference and show you something particular about what Luke the apostle said about the whole matter. While Matthew and Mark use the term directly as "abomination of desollation", listen to how Luke refers to the matter:

Luke 21:20
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Plain and simple isn't it? 

Quoting Daniel 9:27 -

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Notice carefully that this verse identifies three things that this individual would do:

(a) he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

(b) and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

(c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

You'll find that the "he" in this verse would be pointing to one of the individuals in verse 26 - the Messiah or the prince that shall come. The reason it could not be referring to the Messiah is that in verse 27,

Well in this case it would be the people of the prince, which is separate from Christ. I believe you're confusing the issue somewhat. Christ causing the abomination of desolation, is different than being the individual you are talking about. All of those three things that you make reference to qualifies what Christ would be accomplishing.

In other words the Romans actually destroyed the temple, but it was Christ who allowed them to do it. How many times have we read in the scriptures that God allowed Israel's enemies to overthrow them.

(a) Christ did not confirm a covenant with anyone for one week!

Yes He did!

(b) He did not cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease in the midst of the week in question

(c) He did not influence an overspreading of abominations nor make it (the overspread) desolate.

History has proven otherwise. At AD31 Christ did that when He died. The veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom siginifying that the sacrificial ceremonies were obsolete. God's word through the prophet Daniel had insisted that the desolation would continue to the end, meaning that no power on earth can reverse the situation before Christ returns. That temple that was destroyed would remian in that useless state until Jesus returns where His heavenly temple will be the only meaningful temple.

Who then could this verse be referring to? Christ in Matthew 24:15 points out that he is none other than the individual called by the phrasal noun "the abomination of desolation" [βδελυγμα της ερημωσεως] who "stands in the holy place". And what about "the overspreading of desolations"? Look again in Matt. 24:21 - the incomparable tribulation that will take place.

At any rate, when you study the Greek construct (it shouldn't be difficult to do if you're familiar with basic Greek) in Matt. 24:15, you can't sustain the idea that Drusilla put forward advocating the phrasal noun ("the abomination of desolation" as a situation. The word "abomination" in that verse is βδελυγμα = (bdelugma), and does not mean a "situation that is loathsome and disgusting to God or His people." To insist on that is to push an idea not sustained at all in God's Word.

Take it up with Dr. Luke

Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

@Bobbyaf,

Without judging your character, I observe that you've not been consistent in your interpretation of the texts under discussion. M4malik has pointed that out, and I'm persuaded that's the case. You would really help the discussion forward if you demonstrate more grace in your speech.

@m4malik,

I don't think you should react unnecessarily to Bobby's language, if you have to reply at all.

@4get_me

@Bobbyaf,

Without judging your character, I observe that you've not been consistent in your interpretation of the texts under discussion. M4malik has pointed that out, and I'm persuaded that's the case. You would really help the discussion forward if you demonstrate more grace in your speech.

Listen to me well my friend I don't need your advice about consistency. Its either you contribute to the topic or not. This is not a kindergarten section of the board. People are entitled to their views.

Obviously you are in agreement with Malik, and I have no problem with that, but its also obvious that you're biased in your remarks, being quick to point out that I need to demonstrate more grace in my speech.

I am still looking forward to your commentery in either case.

4get_me:

I don't think you should react unnecessarily to Bobby's language, if you have to reply at all.

Oh well, I thought I was the only one who saw his inconsistencies, and there's no need for me to reply to such. Thanks for your observations.

Bobbyaf:

Listen to me well my friend I don't need your advice about consistency. Its either you contribute to the topic or not. This is not a kindergarten section of the board. People are entitled to their views.

I was entitled to mine as well.

Bobbyaf:

Obviously you are in agreement with Malik, and I have no problem with that, but its also obvious that you're biased in your remarks, being quick to point out that I need to demonstrate more grace in my speech.

Oh I get it - you got miffed at my agreeing with m4malik, and I suddenly became "biased" because there's a rule against agreeing with people on Nairaland? As for the grace part, you may continue as so pleases you.

m4malik:

Oh well, I thought I was the only one who saw his inconsistencies, and there's no need for me to reply to such. Thanks for your observations.

No, there's really no need, and thanks for taking that option.

Oh I get it - you got miffed at my agreeing with m4malik, and I suddenly became "biased" because there's a rule against agreeing with people on Nairaland? As for the grace part, you may continue as so pleases you.

None of the above 4get_me. I see you're no better than those you warn about not being graceful, huh?. Insinuations will get you nowhere.

Yes I will continue being honest with who I am. I cannot pretend to being who I am not.

You surprise me!

Keep sounding off Bobby - it's your forté, isn't it?

Bobbyaf,

I think it will be good for you if you can imbibe a teacheable spirit. For obvious reasons, I think this is lacking in you. Even when the obvious is stated, you still hold to your pre-existing notions and keep "slaughtering" the scriptures like no man's business.

You have lumped events together, lumped characters together, and lumped timing together. This has made it difficult for me to even begin to correct you. But with the way you have responded so far, I am berginning to think that it might be a waste of time trying to prove the scriptures to you line upon line. You have your mind made up, and as far as I'm concerned, as long as you are saved, you are still better off, and the rest, you will understand as time goes by.

Our discussions here have made me to do some more studies of end-time events, though I have my persuasions already. I have learned from everyone's contributions and I hope we can continue to be scholarly and humble enough to admit when we miss it.

Bobbyaf,

I think it will be good for you if you can imbibe a teacheable spirit.

I hear you T, but is it fair to have people say negative things only because you disagree with them? I am teachable, and I assume we are to some extent, but you'll have to come with convincing arguments, and so far all I have seen are opinions.

For obvious reasons, I think this is lacking in you. Even when the obvious is stated, you still hold to your pre-existing notions and keep "slaughtering" the scriptures like no man's business.

Tell you what lets see how it goes from here on. I will cut my passionate drive which can come over the wrong way, and I hope people will show some respect for other opinions, even if they do not agree.

You have lumped events together, lumped characters together, and lumped timing together. This has made it difficult for me to even begin to correct you. But with the way you have responded so far, I am berginning to think that it might be a waste of time trying to prove the scriptures to you line upon line. You have your mind made up, and as far as I'm concerned, as long as you are saved, you are still better off, and the rest, you will understand as time goes by.

I think part of the problem lies in the way we tend to present information. If its ok with you guys probably we can break things down piece by piece, so as to avoid too much info all at once.

Our discussions here have made me to do some more studies of end-time events, though I have my persuasions already. I have learned from everyone's contributions and I hope we can continue to be scholarly and humble enough to admit when we miss it.

Thats good you've been motivated to research more. I never stop researching.

Malik,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Drusilla,

I beg you again to look at the text in Matthew 24:15. The exact words used in that text are -

οταν ουν ιδητε το βδελυγμα της ερημωσεως το ρηθεν δια δανιηλ του προφητου SBεστως TAεστος εν τοπω αγιω ο αναγινωσκων νοειτω.

Notice the two words emboldened in red - (a) βδελυγμα = (bdelugma) - detestation, specifically idolatory.

(b) ερημωσεως = (erēmōsis) - despoliation, pillaging, spoiling.

The word used for 'abomination' in that verse is not ειδωλολάτρης (eidōlolatrēs) but βδελυγμα (bdelugma), and the latter is used in Greek to express something 'detestable' and specifically idolatory (See a Greek NT lexicon or Strong's Exhaustive Concordance or Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries).

You are missing my point entirely because I agree with you on the word being: bdelugma and referring to idolatry. What I am pointing out to you is that people are called -- idolators, not idolatry. Idolatry refers to the actions of idolators. [/b]If the verse wanted to point to a person, then it would not have used the word for [b]idolatry.

At any rate, the question still stands as to if at all the figure called "abomination of desolation" refers to Jesus Himself?

Malik, the words "abomination of desolation" [size=16pt]do not[/size] refer to any person. Neither Jesus or the Anti-Christ.

This is where a lot of commentators and Bible students get confused, because they understand that the context would not point to Jesus as "the abomination," and then they wonder if actually Daniel 9:27 was referring to Jesus in the first place. It is clear that those who say that Jesus was the one referred to in Matt. 24:15 are in fact calling Him "the abomination!" Does that make any sense according to the context?

We do not have to believe that the words abomination of desolation refer to any person. Since the plain languages of the bible teaches that it is an EVENT not a person.

Malik et al,

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

There are only 3 persons mentioned in this scripture.

1. Ye who see
2. Daniel the prophet
3. Whoso readeth

You are turning the event "abomination of desolation" into a "4th person" in this scripture.

Yet there is no scriptural justification for believing that "abomination of desolation" is anything other than an event as the scripture and language shows.

The "abomination of desolation" is not a person.

You see Dru the problem is solved when we allow scriptures to interpret themselves.

In Matthew 24:15,16 it says:
15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

In Luke 21:20 it says:
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

In Matthew 24 its "holy place"

The problem lies with how people see the expression "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation". They expect to see some lone anti-Christ some time in the future controlling a temple that doesn't exist, and will never.

You see when Jesus made that comment about leaving the then Jerusalem after they see the sign of the armies surrounding Jerusalem as Luke says, it becomes that much clearer that the event had to have been in AD66, when the armies of Rome came the first time. The jewish army somehow defended the temple, but the mistake they made was not to have listened to Jesus' warning to flee the city. Thats why Jesus said "let not your flight be in the winter or on the sabbath day"

Jesus knew that in AD70 General Titus would have returned with a greater force to finally destroy the temple, and slaughter hundreds of thousands of Jews.

So in summary the abomination of desolation was indeed directly caused by the Roman army. If Luke says it they have no choice but to accept.

My people, but the world was predicted to end in August 2006. What happened. Is this just like the many predictions of old which ended in a wimper.

The christian write and caryy on as if they have a contract with God. Some of them are claiming that they will not dieand therefore judged in that state. My people, unfortunately, when death comes no one can delay it. You will unable to tell the once who are still alive the reality at that time, even thoygh you might have loved them so dearly while death has not overtaken you.

Some try to explain away the Bible verses, but they have no authority nor having any scholarship. The real issue is whether the material source that you are using is pure or even a good source for that matter. It does not matter the luster, a fools gold is exactly that. It has no weight.

You need the god, who protects and is the Only One that can forgive. Not the Okey dokey concept that all of a sudden somebody appeared on the world stage to take away your sins. The God who forgives is able to forgive without having to kill any one in order to forgive the sins of others including later generations. I wonder why the companions of Jesus continue to do good and worship God the way their leader Jesus taught them.

This above is before Paul enter to the fold of the companions of Jesus. Yes, I know, some of us will not quickly cast away Paul in the face of tremendous evidence to do so. Who do you believe, Jesus or Paul. If you believe Jesus, then learn about him from every available source and find out the real truth about him and follow his directive, even if you have to through away your present believe and come into a new way.

@Olabowale,

olabowale:

My people, but the world was predicted to end in August 2006. What happened. Is this just like the many predictions of old which ended in a wimper.

One thing you have to understand is that people have always made "predictions" and they failed because such 'prophets' disregarded the Scriptures. In fair exchange, could you help us with any authentic 'prediction' that Muhammad made that has proven any better than these failed 'prophets'?

olabowale:

Some try to explain away the Bible verses, but they have no authority nor having any scholarship. The real issue is whether the material source that you are using is pure or even a good source for that matter. It does not matter the luster, a fools gold is exactly that. It has no weight.

I wonder what authority or scholarship you have on either the Bible or the Qur'an, as is quite obvious that you have not been able to defend some of the quotes in the Qur'an in some other threads.

Meanwhile, you have just demonstrated poor scholarship by trying to insinuate that the "material source" (the Bible, supposedly) is not pure, or that it is not even a good source. It's either you have a problem with the Qur'an itself or with the "Allah" of Islam who claimed to have both sent down, revealed and confirmed the same "material" you repudiate! In other words, if "a fools gold is exactly that", then you make me wonder that *Allah's* claim in the Qur'an has no weight!

olabowale:

You need the god, who protects and is the Only One that can forgive. Not the Okey dokey concept that all of a sudden somebody appeared on the world stage to take away your sins.

The first part of your statement really needs to sink down into your heart - you really need that God who both protects and forgives every sin; and only in Jesus Christ can you find real protection and forgiveness that God offers. Think about it for a moment, if Muhammad actually found that protection and forgiveness in the true God, how come he pitifully cried in his dying moments that he was not sure what *Allah* would do to him in that day? Those who find true forgiveness can know even now and here that their future is secure - and that is precisely what Jesus Christ came to offer in His death and resurrection.

Second, the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the Cross was and is not an 'Okey dokey concept' that happened all of a sudden - it was long predicted in the Scriptures of the Old Testament found in the Bible, precisely in the Psalms of David which the Qur'an categorically endorses as having been sent down, revealed, confirmed and given by the *Allah* of the Islamic faith. Surprised? Let me remind you what the Qur'an says *Allah* did with the Psalms of David in Sura 4:163 (Yusuf Ali translation) -

"We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.."

Now if it is true that Islam's *Allah* gave the Psalms to David, what is written in the Psalms about Jesus death on the Cross? See, for example, the following -

"All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. . . I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. . . They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture." (Psa. 22:7-8, 14, & 18).

"I am poured out like water" is a typical Jewish expression that the Biblical prophets well understood as indicating the death of someone; and to this the prophet Isaiah was very clear in declaring Jesus' atoning death with something akin to this expression -

"Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:12).

Indeed, the Psalms of David (which the Qur'an endorses) clearly reveal and confirm that Jesus' death for the sinners was not a sudden 'okey dokey concept' - it was long predicted, not only by prophet David, but also by Isaiah, (Isaiah 53), by Moses (in Gen. 3:15), by Zechariah (Zech. 12:10 - "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced", and by a few others. Biblical prophecies are easy to understand, and God by His Spirit is more than willing to give revelation and understand of these things to anyone who asks Him by faith in Jesus' name.

olabowale:

The God who forgives is able to forgive without having to kill any one in order to forgive the sins of others including later generations.

That may well be true - but the fact that He gave His only begotten Son Jesus Christ for our sins goes deeply to show the immeasurable love and grace of the heart of God. Sin brings death (otherwise, why does Islam preach that sinners would be destroyed on Judgement Day?); but notice that God who seeks to forgive undeserving sinners layed the debt of man's sins on His own righteous Son, so that those who believe in Him would not have to face the second death - which is divine judgement on that great Day.

Jesus Himself confirmed that no one could kill Him unless the Father permitted it - "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father" (John 10:17-18).

Jesus was not afraid of death, but He went to the Cross for sinners and not for Himself - because it was so determined by prophecy long before Jesus was born.

olabowale:

I wonder why the companions of Jesus continue to do good and worship God the way their leader Jesus taught them.

Why should we stop doing good and worshipping God in Spirit and in truth - as Jesus "our leader" taught us? Infact, you have clearly exposed here the Islamic distaste of Jesus, because right from the onset it has always been a matter of "us" and "them" - for that is what Muhammad came to preach. Muhammad knew from the very onset his claim to have been sent by God would be exposed as false, so he tried to give credence to it by claiming that his own *Allah* was the same that sent Jesus!

olabowale:

This above is before Paul enter to the fold of the companions of Jesus. Yes, I know, some of us will not quickly cast away Paul in the face of tremendous evidence to do so. Who do you believe, Jesus or Paul. If you believe Jesus, then learn about him from every available source and find out the real truth about him and follow his directive, even if you have to through away your present believe and come into a new way.

If Muhammad truly believed in the truth about Jesus, he most definitely would have thrown away his believes in Islam and come to the real truth - Jesus Himself, who proclaimed "I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE" (John 14:6). This has nothing to do with Paul, because Jesus made that bold declaration about Himself before Paul became a Christian. Jesus truly saves, and He still offers that salvation to all who would receive by simple faith.

@4get_me; My dearest sister, it is true that i am not a scholar of the Bible nor of the Qur'an. However, people who hold scholarship on these books or the religions the books came for could be people whose deeds are not are in essence opposite the teachings of the books.

First, all i know is that I just do not see why the God that created all things, without prior examples needs to kill some body innocent to forgive sinners.Afterall, He is God Who is full of Mercy. He did not have to come down to humilate Himself in the hand of His creation. This last sentence is addressing some of the people who say that Jesus is himsel God! I am not sure if you are also in this group.

God Who defeated Pharaoh, at the zenieth of his power, having jurisdiction over 1/3 of the whole world. This defeat came at the hand of a runway, a person who was not eloquent in speech. this man was Moses. Moses did not have anything except his supporting stick. That was enough material for God. Such is the power of the Most powerful, The irresistable.

I have answered as much as I can of the flood of questions that the christians have asked. My Muslim brothers and sisters who have more knowledge and even greater faith/belief than me have done better job. may God reward them. If you accept guidance is for your own good, if you reject it, you are free as well.

Some people will simply hear the call to prayer, their haerts will melt. They will hurry to accept islam. It is as if the thirsty was given a cold drink to quench the thirst.

Bobbyaf,

Good job letting scripture interpret scripture.

Neither the language or the interpretation should lead one to believe that the 'abomination of desolation' is a person.

It is an event.

Dear Olabowale,

olabowale:

@4get_me; My dearest sister, it is true that i am not a scholar of the Bible nor of the Qur'an. However, people who hold scholarship on these books or the religions the books came for could be people whose deeds are not are in essence opposite the teachings of the books.

I'm not quite clear about the last line of your statement; care to clarify?

olabowale:

First, all i know is that I just do not see why the God that created all things, without prior examples needs to kill some body innocent to forgive sinners.

I understand your difficulty. However, there are a few things you might want to consider:

(a) God did not need to kill an innocent person in order to forgive sinners; however, He gave His Son in love to redeem sinners - and I count as one of those for whom Christ died and rose again.

(b) Second, this redemption in Jesus Christ was severally prophecied in the Biblical Scriptures that the Qur'an itself endorses - which all include those mentioned earlier, long before Jesus was born: the Law of Moses (Genesis 3:15), the Psalms of David (Psalm 22); and the prophecy of Isaiah (Isaiah 53), and Zechariah (Zech. 12:10). I'd amicably offer that our Muslim friends look at the Qur'an again and ask why it reports that *Allah* endorsed the very books of the Bible containing these prophecies of Jesus' death for sinners. If these books of the Bible already made these prophecies, why did the *Allah* not reject them altogether instead of claiming that He actually gave the Psalms to David and the Law to Moses?

(c) Third, it is a common belief in Islam that Jesus will return again, then die and be raised to life (resurrected). In other words, Islam believes in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, although places these events at some point in future. My question is, why would this same innocent Jesus have to die at some point in the future if Islam denies His death and resurrection now, since He is innocent and sinless?

(d) It is yet more evident that in the Qur'an, Jesus death and resurrection are spoken of by His own lips - "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! (Sura 19:33, Yusuf Ali trans.).

These are just references to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, hidden in golden nuggets in the Qur'an. However, the important issue is that in reference to your question, why God who created all things would need to kill somebody innocent to forgive sinners. The simple answer I could give you is that Jesus took my place, as determined by divine prophecy, so that a sinner like me could be saved from divine wrath on Judgement Day. More than that, the death of Jesus on the Cross set me free from sin's aweful grip, sanctified me by His shed blood, defeated Satan, and gave me the assurance of God's forgiveness in my heart. I personalise these things because I know that Jesus death and resurrection are real, even though many people have a difficulty in understanding what God can do for those who believe in Jesus Christ.

olabowale:

Afterall, He is God Who is full of Mercy. He did not have to come down to humilate Himself in the hand of His creation. This last sentence is addressing some of the people who say that Jesus is himsel God! I am not sure if you are also in this group.

That may well be true from a human point of view; however, the big picture is that while He did not have to come down to humiliate Himself in the hands of His creation, He amazingly chose to do just that - to give men the chance to prove their wickedness to the uttermost! This is how the Bible puts it in one of the Psalms of David (remember that the Qur'an endorses the Psalms as well?) --  "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet" (Psa. 22:16).

Yet, in all of this display of wickedness, the prophet Zechariah recorded that this very same One would pour out the Spirit of grace and of supplication upon those who pierced Him (Zech. 12:10)! Could anyone measure such forgiving mercy? Indeed, God is full of Mercy, and in no one else was that mercy demonstrated than in Jesus Christ.

No doubt, I am one of those who believe that what the Scriptures declare about Jesus reveal Him to be God Himself. I know how 'blasphemous' this may sound to our Muslim friends; but if I deny what the Bible reveals about Jesus, then my Muslim friends should be ready to deny as well whatever the Qur'an has endorsed, in that the Qur'an made a blasphemous mistake in stating that *Allah* actually was the one who revealed and confirmed the very Biblical texts that teach about the deity of Jesus Christ in the Psalms of David (see Psalm 2:12 for example - "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him".

olabowale:

God Who defeated Pharaoh, at the zenieth of his power, having jurisdiction over 1/3 of the whole world. This defeat came at the hand of a runway, a person who was not eloquent in speech. this man was Moses. Moses did not have anything except his supporting stick. That was enough material for God. Such is the power of the Most powerful, The irresistable.

Yes, and I'm happy for you if you believe the Biblical account of Moses being used of God to overthrow Pharaoh with the instrumentality of a mere stick. I'd like to add by way of reminder that God has also used other less means of instrumentality to secure great victory for His people. However, nothing overturns or stands in the way of God's sure prophetic Word. What He declares, He also performs - and if He declared prophetically that Jesus' death was for sinners (Isaiah 53:12), who is able to resist that?

olabowale:

I have answered as much as I can of the flood of questions that the christians have asked. My Muslim brothers and sisters who have more knowledge and even greater faith/belief than me have done better job. may God reward them. If you accept guidance is for your own good, if you reject it, you are free as well.

Sometimes, I find your inputs quite cordial even though I may not agree with most of them. In fair exchange, all I'm trying to do is amicably offer you some reasoning from both the Qur'an and the Bible as to the matters being discussed to the effect that Jesus is and was exactly what the Bible calls Him - the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Matt. 16:16), and this was prophetically confirmed by the Psalms of David that the Qur'an said *Allah* sent down and confirmed (see again Psalm 2:12 that specifically mentioned "the Son" in whom we should put our trust!).

olabowale:

Some people will simply hear the call to prayer, their haerts will melt. They will hurry to accept islam. It is as if the thirsty was given a cold drink to quench the thirst.

A call to prayer is all well and good; but what God is seeking is a genuine relationship with those who worship Him - and that is what Jesus came to offer everyone freely by the huge cost of His atoning sacrifice on the Cross. This is why Jesus often referred to God in the Bible as "Father"; and He taught His disciples to pray to God as "Our Father in Heaven." As far as I know, *Allah* in Islam does not offer that relationship, and what then does a call to prayer avail if those who worship God see Him as distant from the deepest needs of their hearts?

I enjoyed some of the challenges you raised so far; but here is something as food for thought. Why was Jesus called Christ in the Qur'an, if He was not the Saviour?

Lastly, I'm male, not a "sister". 

@4get_me; Brother, forgive me about the woman thing. Sometimes, I will have so many things doing in one go.
The issue about scholarship is very simple. Some people are what you call, too know. Yet, they have little faith at best.

Having a son does not fit the majesty of God. Read Suratul Mariam in the Qur'an.
When God states that muslims should believe the Tourah, Sabur and Injil, books revealed before Qur'an, it simply means this; Each book was pure in revelation as long as the prophet who received the book was alive. That prophet was a living example of that book. He was using it to lead the community in his charge. However, when the prophet dies of, as in the case of Moses and David (AS) or raised up as in the case of Jesus (AS), after some time, as the true companions and true followers dies off, you will have a new generations.

These new generations may be zealots, religious superclass and/or influential nobilities who are more political that religious. These people may want to take a ruling class approach and/or political and financial advantages of the ordinary people. Therefore, they enter into a strategy, wherby they modify the pure book to fit the new agenda. Inorder word, poluting this book from its original pure form.

Please do not forget that the religious books of the Jew and the christians were in the hands of the religious upper class for a long time. Ordinary people used to go to this aristocrats of their religions to ask about religious matters.

Unlike the Qur'an. The Qur'an was from its first revelation, of a mere 5 verses, was memorized, written down and used in religious and communual matters. Everyone was encouraged to learn the Qur'an. Anyone could correct even the most learned when mistake is made.

God stated in many parts of the Qur'an that every man shall taste death. that is a sign of our mortality. In Suratul Al Rahman, God states the face of everything shall perish, except His Own face. So in the case of Jesus (AS), when he comes to the earth, in his return, he will live out the rest of his life. Then when every moment of it has been utilized, he will die like every prophet (AS), indeed like every human being. He will then be recreated like you and me, for the Day of judgement.

As to the peace on him, the day of his birth, the day of his death and the day he will be raised up, that was a sign that even the Bible did not record for him. remember this was a statement which he made in defence of his mother, while he was a babe, helpless, supposed to be too young to speak. This was definately a sign of prophethood.

We must agree that if you look at the account of him sayimg that peace is upon him in the day of his death, one would see that it is not the death that was recorded by the christian book. In the christian Book, the death is very violent. There was no peace in it.

My story about Moses was directly from the Qur'an. Read Chapter 20. You will be amazed.
The love of Muslims to God is very genuine. The Muslims begins every affair by mentioning God's name. We praise God in every occasion. When a muslim is afraid of God, that muslim runs to Him. Seeking refuge in Him against the evils of his own soul, from other creations and asking for full protection from God.

@olabowale,

Again, many thanks for your calm and reasoned response, even though I beg to disagree with most of what you've posted. The ITK (I-too-know) syndrome happens in many quarters, and you've aptly encapsulated the sad case of 'little faith' that follows largely from that.

1. Having a "son" may not fit the majesty of God in Islamic thought; neither would the concept of "slave" befit a relationship that speaks about the character of God's love for people. The difficulty in this is that Muslims are made to believe "sonship" and "Father" implies God had a wife and sired an offspring as men do in biological procedures. This is nowhere taught in the Bible; and Muhammad's disdain about this divine relationship was so conspicuous in the Qur'an (Q.5:116), because Christianity has never taught that the Trinity was the Father, Mary the Mother and Jesus the Son; rather, it has always been the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19).

2. It is interesting to follow your reasoning about God's revelation to prophets prior to Muhammad's time. So, if the revelation was pure as long as the prophet who received the book was alive, does the death of the said prophet invalidate the purity of the revelation that was supposed to have come from God? If that is so, then since Muhammad is dead, the Qur'an has become impure by the same rule. There should be no arbitrary rules about this: as long as you surmised that the revelations came from God, then God is able to keep and preserve His revelation from corruption down through the ages.

3. The aristocrats known as the 'Caliphs' who succeeded Muhammad in Islamic history fit well your description of nobilities who are more political than religious. In the case of the Qur'an, it is no secret that the third Caliph 'Uthman ibn 'Affan "modified the 'pure book' to fit the new agenda", or in other words, polluting the Qur'an from its original 'pure form' by ordering that only his redaction version stands while all the other extant copies of his day be burnt. If there was a need to burn other copies of the Qur'an, it only points to the fact that the Qur'an had corrupt variant readings - which again shows that Islam's holy and 'pure' book was afterall not so pure from the very onset of Islamic history.

4. It is meaningless that Christ's death should be put at the end of the world simply because the Qur'an mentions that every man shall taste death. I have offered that the death of Christ was prophecied in the very same books that the Qur'an endorses, particularly in the Psalms of David (see again Psa. 22:16 - "they pierced my hands and my feet" which is clearly in reference to the crucifixion of Jesus). That same Psalm 22 in verse 14 mentions the prophetic death of Christ as being "poured out like water", which the prophet Isaiah (ch.53:12) explained by God's inspiration as a sacrifice for sins --

"Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

5. I know you believe what the Qur'an states; but do you also believe what it states about the Psalms of David? One of such Psalms mentions that Christ was crucified by the piercing of His hands and feet; and so you see that Christ's death would be meaningless unless it had a significance. That significance was explained by several prophets long before Jesus was born. Correct me where I'm wrong, but it is remarkable that the very prophet who mentioned and explained the significance of Jesus' death was not mentioned at any one time in the Qur'an! That prophet was Isaiah, and you can turn to Isaian 53 and read the full narative for yourself. Is there any reason why such an important prophet should go unnoticed in Islam - or was it that if Muhammad had mentioned him, then Muslims would have questioned Muhammad's and *Allah's* denial of Jesus' crucifixion in the Qur'an? Jesus Himself believed that Isaiah was a prophet (see Matt. 13:13-14 and 15:7); and if Muhammad missed that, there is a suspicious element to the denial of the Crucifixion in the Qur'an.

6. The violent death that the Bible mentions in Jesus' case has been explained in one of my rejoinders, quoting the same Psalm 22:16 where it states: ". . . the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet." The violence there only shows the wickedness of man, and the apostle Peter referenced it aptly when he said in his great sermon on Pentecost in Acts 2:23 -- "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." The 'determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God' in Peter's statement is clearly in reference to prophecies like in Isaiah 53 about the violent death that the Messiah would suffer for man's redemption.

7. The big picture is the resurrection - Jesus rose from death and so demonstrated His power to save. He is the Christ, the Saviour and Lord of all, and whoever puts their trust in Him (as Psalm 2:12 says), shall be saved and blessed. This blessing includes the peace Jesus offers to the heart, and I dare say that a true believer in Jesus Christ knows that peace on the inside despite the violence he sees around him.

Why the Qur'an is denying what the Psalms say about the death by crufixion of Christ which happened in the past but puts it in the future is sad. It only means that many are led to deny the very act that would save them. . . until the truth is revealed to them too late as to how Muhammad was the one who denied what would have saved him and Muslims.

8.

olabowale:

My story about Moses was directly from the Qur'an. Read Chapter 20. You will be amazed.
The love of Muslims to God is very genuine. The Muslims begins every affair by mentioning God's name. We praise God in every occasion. When a muslim is afraid of God, that muslim runs to Him. Seeking refuge in Him against the evils of his own soul, from other creations and asking for full protection from God.

May God bless all those who run to Him when in fear and doubt, even as David mentions in the Psalms - "What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee" (Psa. 56:3). However, Muhammad would know nothing about the story about Moses if he didn't get it from the Bible.

Besides, I don't doubt that many Muslims love God - and I've witnessed many sincere and genuine love in many people. However, in a relationship, love goes both ways and flows in both directions. I don't know where in the Qur'an or to what degree it is said that *Allah* loves man. I'm still carefully reading the Qur'an, but it might help if you have a reference that says *Allah* loves man unconditionally.

In the Bible, we see God's love for man in John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life", and Rom. 5:8 ("But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". In consequence, we can truly respond in love to God because of what He did for us - "We love him, because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). No one can truly love God if he/she has not known the God who loves unconditionally and freely. That God loves us so much that, rather than call us "slaves", He desires us to be known as His "children" who call Him "Father."

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not." (1 John 3:1).

You have nothing to lose if you can know that love the Father gives. It is still offered - by simply trusting in His Son, just as again the Psalms say: " Kiss the Son, . . . Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him" (Psa. 2:12). May I persuade you to read the Psalms of David that *Allah* in the Qur'an says he sent down upon David - those Psalms show that Christ was both crucified and resurrected for our salvation. Do you believe in the Psalms? Will you trust in the Son as the Psalms say in chapter 2:12? Or will you deny what the Qur'an says about *Allah* sending the Psalms upon David?

Jesus says: "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me." Don't wait until a future death of Christ - it will never happen! The choice is yours - Jesus is Lord! 

@4get_me: Did you know that every Muslim at the United nations, yesterday, started his speech by praising God, the Almighty Allah!. No christian ever did the same. God, to the non Muslims has His place. He does not belong in the political arena. Unlike the Muslims, God is the Holder of everything. His Honor abounds over all things. So when the Muslims begins an event, praising of God is necessary. The affairs of the Bedroom is never began without seeking the protection of God, from the evil one.

Your mentioning that jesus said that he should be followed is true. The people who were to follow him were the people of his generation, before Muhammad (AS) came on the scene. From the time of Muhammad, until the end of the world, everyone must follow Muhammad. There is no exception to this commandment of God. Who ever then cling to any old prophet or other form of leadership, that person has done it to his/her own personal Peril.

Every prophet was the commander of his time. Jesus time has came and gone. He was a true slave of his Lord. The One God Who created him, without a conjugal relationship between a man and his mother (AS).

There was atime in existence that jesus never was. Infact Jesus soul was taken out of the back of Adam (AS), at the same time the souls of every man, inclusing the not yet born was taken.
Yes Jesus was a word coming forth from his Lord. Jesus was a command of God. Your word is your command. Every creation is a word/command of God. The command/word clicks our being to begin. The big bang theory concept of the evolutionist is nothing but the command of God, 'BE'.

In this command of 'BE', the thing that is commanded to be created begins to take form, until its full completion. The voice of God is audible, to those intended receiver who are being instructed. Moses heard God voice. So were other prophets. The Angels hears Him. But no one has seen Him!. He is above all His creations. Jesus (AS), was seen by his followers and people of his time. Jesus (AS) ate and carried on activities and functions of mere mortals. Jesus was a sign of the might of God. Just in the same way you and me and all God's creations are.

The earth floats in suspension, without any visible fulcrum. The heavens are layered on top of each other, as if one envelopes the other nearer to the earth. Yet you will not find any pillar! God and Jesus are not the same. God is so unique that He declares His uniqueness in the 112 Chapter of the Qur'an. You have never seen anything compared to Him. If you believe that God is Jesus, you have transgressed all bounds. You should return back to your senses. Ask God for forgiveness. Follow the path of salvation in religion. The path that is direct to God's Mercy. For God is the Owner of true Mercy. No one else.

@Olabowale,

Interestingly, I've just posted a rejoinder in another thread (Jehovah Or Yahweh Is Not The Same As Allah) to show that the *Allah* of the Qur'an is not the God of the Bible. I'm sorry, but this is not to deliberately offend you; rather, when all things are considered, you'll find it so, and this is the reason why I often now type "Allah" in asterix (**) to distinguish what I'm trying to point out.

At the end of the day, Muslims may praise *Allah* even in political arena, and politicians today will not want to allow the same 'freedom' to Christian beliefs and convictions. In the same United States of America where you presently reside, what segment of society in that country have been most politically opposed to Christians and the Church? Refresh your memory that not long ago, the debate against the Ten Commandments were politically motivated. However, your surmation actually does not lend weight at all to the notion that Islam must be the way to God simply because Muslims praise *Allah* on the floor of the United Nations.

If you have read the Bible, you would see that Jesus came with a timeless message - offering Himself for the salvation of the world, according to the prophecies of the OT prophets. "God so loved the world," not just the Jews (John 3:16) - and that was Jesus' own statement, where again in that text He said that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Muhammad's claim to have been sent to all the world is weakened by the very same prophecies that the Qur'an endorsed, particularly the Psalms of David. I have time and again made reference to what the Qur'an says about the Psalms; it's up to my Muslim friends to either deny what the Qur'an says (because that is a hard pill to swallow); or to acknowledge the Psalms and investigate the Crucifixion and divine Sonship of Jesus Christ.

olabowale:

There was atime in existence that jesus never was. Infact Jesus soul was taken out of the back of Adam (AS), at the same time the souls of every man, inclusing the not yet born was taken.

Do Muslims really believe in all the Biblical prophets as the Qur'an says in Sura 2.136? - - 'Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." '

If you really believe in all the prophets of the Bible, then you will understand that Jesus was not created by God; but being God Himself, He existed long before He was born. See Micah 5:2 in the Old Testament - "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." There again, Muhammad in the Qur'an would not have made any reference to Micah a confirmed Old Testament prophet - and for good reasons, because it states what Muhammad and *Allah* deny in the Qur'an.

olabowale:

In this command of 'BE', the thing that is commanded to be created begins to take form, until its full completion. The voice of God is audible, to those intended receiver who are being instructed. Moses heard God voice.

It is remarkable that Moses and other Biblical prophets heard the voice of God (as is alluded in the Qur'an about Moses in Q.4.164 -- "Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;-"; but the great prophet Muhammad who claimed to have come from that same God did not hear His voice, but only got his revelations from "angels". Does that not make you think deeply about Muhammad's claims of having been sent by the God of the Biblical prophets?

olabowale:

Jesus (AS), was seen by his followers and people of his time. Jesus (AS) ate and carried on activities and functions of mere mortals. Jesus was a sign of the might of God. Just in the same way you and me and all God's creations are.

I think you're beginning to lose the plot, dear friend. If Jesus was a sign of the might of God in just the same way you and me and all God's creations are, how come Muhammad couldn't do the same things Jesus accomplished, which the Qur'an even acknowledges - His miracles and powerful works?

olabowale:

God and Jesus are not the same.

Oh, really?? Then I guess you would have had to say it to His face the very day He stated that: "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). He also said this: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (John 5:17). What Muhammad could not accept, he denied. Don't make that mistake, because the very same Qur'an you read show that in endorsing the Biblical prophets, it was actually endorsing what they taught. Again, remember that very prophet - Isaiah - that Muhammad failed to mention?? This is what he called the Messiah in prophecy - "his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6).

olabowale:

God is so unique that He declares His uniqueness in the 112 Chapter of the Qur'an. You have never seen anything compared to Him.

The uniqueness of God - ah, that's something I may agree with you on. 

However, I'm sad to notice that the very angels speaking to Muhammad in revelation have often tried to compare themselves with *Allah* when they claimed to have done the same work of creating man. Let me quote just two of them:

Q.15:26 - "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape."

Q.19:67 - "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?"

So, who is the Creator - who created man: was it *Allah* alone; or those angels who associated and compared themselves to the Creator be claiming what they did not do? This is a dilemma for many Muslims, and the earlier they come to their senses about these issues, the better for them.

olabowale:

If you believe that God is Jesus, you have transgressed all bounds. You should return back to your senses. Ask God for forgiveness. Follow the path of salvation in religion. The path that is direct to God's Mercy. For God is the Owner of true Mercy. No one else.

I cannot deny what the Bible states about who Jesus is; and if the Qur'an endorses the Biblical prophets and the Psalms of David, then there is no crime in believing that the Bible is true in what it declares about Jesus Christ. God in His true mercy has sent His own Son Jesus Christ for the salvation of our souls. This is what the very same prophets of the Bible proclaimed; and if you deny that, then you're denying what the Qur'an said about the Psalms and all the prophets - and you'll be making the same grave error that Muhammaed made - denying the true revelation of God in all the prophets that could have saved his own soul. Don't make that mistake, dear friend.

Let me remind you again about the Son of God in Psalm 2:12: "Kiss the Son, . . . Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him." It's either we trust in Him, Jesus Christ the Son as the Psalms say; or my dear Muslim friends should surprise us by denying the Qur'an ever endorsed the Psalms. You can't have it both ways. Jesus Christ is "the Son" in the Psalms that the Qur'an claimed came from *Allah* upon David.

Which shall it be - deny the Qur'an by denying the Psalms; or accept what the Qur'an said about the Psalms by believing Psalm 2:12??

May God in His mercy help you out of the mistake Muhammad made. Regards.

@ Drusilla's quote:

Bobbyaf,

Good job letting scripture interpret scripture.

Neither the language or the interpretation should lead one to believe that the 'abomination of desolation' is a person.

It is an event.

To God be praised dear sister Dru. The bible will always defend itself even during trying circumstances. Keep praying and studying, so that you can "rightly divide the word of truth"