Let me state a few point about Jesus life on earth before he was crucified.
That Jesus reached out to his disciples one after the other asking them to FOLLOW ME .
take of the word FOLLOW
Matthew 4:20 Says ,And they straightway left their nets, and FOLLOWED him.
That this is how Jesus gathered his disciples,plus the miracles they saw,until a great multitude of disciples followed him.
Matthew 19:2 Says,And great multitudes FOLLOWED him; and he healed them there.
That they abandoned or sell all that they had and give the money to the poor (including their love ones and all their cares ) to embark on a terrible journey(a journey described as the great tribulation in Matthew 24) with Jesus from Galilee to Jerusalem where Jesus was to be crucified.
Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and FOLLOWED thee; what shall we have therefore?
That the sole reason for following Christ was to inherit the kingdom of God(Christianity ) which was to be revealed on earth when Christ is crucified at Jerusalem.
and that, as they journeyed moving from one city to the other towards Jerusalem, he gave his disciples power(to carry out signs and wonders ) to go into the cities to preach and bring more disciples to follow the now multitude of disciples to Jerusalem.
Now, with this basic knowledge, it is pertinent that Jesus himself went into one of those cities to preach,during which he encountered a master in Israel (who must have read the scriptures about the coming Messiah but could not understand ) known as Nicodemus.
After telling him except ye be BORN AGAIN you shall not see the kingdom of God (you shall not become a Christian)
remember, it was a transition from Judaism (the religion of the Jews ) to Christianity ( the Christian faith )
therefore the righteousness of God was revealed from faith to faith at crucifixion.
So, he told Nicodemus, in
John 3:7, Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Meaning, i want to come out plain and tell you what i mean by born again.
He then told him a parable in
John 3:8, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
let me explain this parable.
The wind there represent the multitude or crowd of disciples following Jesus. Nicodemus in his sight and ear, sees and hear about the multitude of disciples following Jesus but could not tell where they are coming from and where they are going to (all though they were going to Jerusalem ).
then Jesus ended by saying, so is every man that is born again.meaning,all these disciples you see following me are the born again.
The bottomline is,for Nicodemus to see the kingdom of God it is expected that he should join the crowd of disciples and FOLLOW Jesus to Jerusalem where the kingdom of God is be revealed at his crucifixion. THEREFORE, BORN AGAIN SIMPLY MEANS THE EVENT OF THE DISCIPLES FOLLOWING JESUS INTO CHRISTIANITY (not yet in Christianity but on their way to Christianity ).so born again were not yet saved because they were still under Judaism the old covenant, even at the following.
Remember, it was a transition from Judaism(the religion of the jews) to christianity (the Christian faith ).therefore the righteousness of God was revealed from faith to faith at crucifixion.
now,not all who followed Jesus and called him lord lord(not everybody among the born again ) ended up seeing the kingdom of God (ended up becoming christians ) but only about 120 of them, check act 1:15. out of the 5000 who eat bread and fishes.
Example of a disciple who was born again who didn't see the kingdom of God was Judas Iscariot, he died on the way, he was unfortunate.
Another example is john the baptist, he also died. Hence, the least person (the greatest sinner ) in Christianity is greater than john the Baptist and all the prophets of old testament (prophets of Judaism ).
You can see that born again was not in Christianity but in Judaism (another religion entirely just like Islam ) and Christianity is far better than born again. Therefore it is far better to be called a Christian than to be called born again.
The painfull thing is that Christians now hijacked the name born again, boasting that they are righteous than any other Christian thereby causing division in the body of Christ.
Please desist from boasting,no man on earth is righteous. We are all justified by faith and not by our dirty works. And that faith is Christianity.
therefore, everybody in Christianity are saved irrespective of who you are or your sin status

Sorry to counter you but when Jesus said that people that are born again again are like the wind, He was saying that the presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of someone makes that person a mystery to his generation. This means that ordinarily you can never explain or understand what the born again person is doing because he is working according to a different plan and understanding. That is why the Bible said that spiritual things are foolishness to those outside the faith.

To be a Christian is simply to live a life that is Christ like. Because according to the Bible, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, we need a form of transformation from our sinful nature to the Christ like nature and that is where born again comes in. As Jesus explained to Nicodemus, it is like having to die to sin and come alive in Christ. The only problem is that we tend to misuse the term and that is why you see people say they are born again and yet there is no difference between their lifestyle before and after.

We also need to know that simply because we were born in a Christian home does not necessarily make us Christians. To be called a Christian, one needs to have that personal encounter where he/she accepts Jesus into his/her life and forsake the old ways and live in righteousness, holiness and purity

)
you are very free to counter me, but make it objective
you are truly talking mysteries, meanwhile Jesus Christ was not talking mysteries if you follow all the conversation he had with Nicodemus in john 3
Infact, Jesus stated it clearly in
John 3:12 saying If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
meaning, all the things he was telling him was earthly, true life events as it applied at that very moment he was talking. so there was nothing, mysterious there.
or did you see the holy spirit there in the context of that conversation with Nicodemus?
you are right about being Christlike,
to be Christlike simply means to be saved by grace. to accept christ is the same thing as being christlike which is the same thing as to join Christianity because it is in Christianity that our salvation is sure.
to accept Christ is the same thing as saying, i was in islam, then i accepted to be converted into Christianity after hearing the word of God. because Jesus is the founder of Christianity.
nevertheless,to change from old ways or repentance is another thing entirely. but it doesn't assure us salvation

paxonel:
Let me state a few point about Jesus life on earth before he was crucified.
That Jesus reached out to his disciples one after the other asking them to FOLLOW ME .
take of the word FOLLOW
Matthew 4:20 Says ,And they straightway left their nets, and FOLLOWED him.
That this is how Jesus gathered his disciples,plus the miracles they saw,until a great multitude of disciples followed him.
Matthew 19:2 Says,And great multitudes FOLLOWED him; and he healed them there.
That they abandoned or sell all that they had and give the money to the poor (including their love ones and all their cares ) to embark on a terrible journey(a journey described as the great tribulation in Matthew 24) with Jesus from Galilee to Jerusalem where Jesus was to be crucified.
Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and FOLLOWED thee; what shall we have therefore?
That the sole reason for following Christ was to inherit the kingdom of God(Christianity ) which was to be revealed on earth when Christ is crucified at Jerusalem.
and that, as they journeyed moving from one city to the other towards Jerusalem, he gave his disciples power(to carry out signs and wonders ) to go into the cities to preach and bring more disciples to follow the now multitude of disciples to Jerusalem.
Now, with this basic knowledge, it is pertinent that Jesus himself went into one of those cities to preach,during which he encountered a master in Israel (who must have read the scriptures about the coming Messiah but could not understand ) known as Nicodemus.
After telling him except ye be BORN AGAIN you shall not see the kingdom of God (you shall not become a Christian)
remember, it was a transition from Judaism (the religion of the Jews ) to Christianity ( the Christian faith )
therefore the righteousness of God was revealed from faith to faith at crucifixion.
So, he told Nicodemus, in
John 3:7, Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Meaning, i want to come out plain and tell you what i mean by born again.
He then told him a parable in
John 3:8, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
let me explain this parable.
The wind there represent the multitude or crowd of disciples following Jesus. Nicodemus in his sight and ear, sees and hear about the multitude of disciples following Jesus but could not tell where they are coming from and where they are going to (all though they were going to Jerusalem ).
then Jesus ended by saying, so is every man that is born again.meaning,all these disciples you see following me are the born again.
The bottomline is,for Nicodemus to see the kingdom of God it is expected that he should join the crowd of disciples and FOLLOW Jesus to Jerusalem where the kingdom of God is be revealed at his crucifixion. THEREFORE, BORN AGAIN SIMPLY MEANS THE EVENT OF THE DISCIPLES FOLLOWING JESUS INTO CHRISTIANITY (not yet in Christianity but on their way to Christianity ).so born again were not yet saved because they were still under Judaism the old covenant, even at the following.
Remember, it was a transition from Judaism(the religion of the jews) to christianity (the Christian faith ).therefore the righteousness of God was revealed from faith to faith at crucifixion.
now,not all who followed Jesus and called him lord lord(not everybody among the born again ) ended up seeing the kingdom of God (ended up becoming christians ) but only about 120 of them, check act 1:15. out of the 5000 who eat bread and fishes.
Example of a disciple who was born again who didn't see the kingdom of God was Judas Iscariot, he died on the way, he was unfortunate.
Another example is john the baptist, he also died. Hence, the least person (the greatest sinner ) in Christianity is greater than john the Baptist and all the prophets of old testament (prophets of Judaism ).
You can see that born again was not in Christianity but in Judaism (another religion entirely just like Islam ) and Christianity is far better than born again. Therefore it is far better to be called a Christian than to be called born again.
The painfull thing is that Christians now hijacked the name born again, boasting that they are righteous than any other Christian thereby causing division in the body of Christ.
Please desist from boasting,no man on earth is righteous. We are all justified by faith and not by our dirty works. And that faith is Christianity.
therefore, everybody in Christianity are saved irrespective of who you are or your sin status

this is what we call, rightly dividing the word of truth. it is so scares to hear this

paxonel:
)
you are very free to counter me, but make it objective
you are truly talking mysteries, meanwhile Jesus Christ was not talking mysteries if you follow all the conversation he had with Nicodemus in john 3
Infact, Jesus stated it clearly in
John 3:12 saying If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
meaning, all the things he was telling him was earthly, true life events as it applied at that very moment he was talking. so there was nothing, mysterious there.
or did you see the holy spirit there in the context of that conversation with Nicodemus?
you are right about being Christlike,
to be Christlike simply means to be saved by grace. to accept christ is the same thing as being christlike which is the same thing as to join Christianity because it is in Christianity that our salvation is sure.
to accept Christ is the same thing as saying, i was in islam, then i accepted to be converted into Christianity after hearing the word of God. because Jesus is the founder of Christianity.
nevertheless,to change from old ways or repentance is another thing entirely. but it doesn't assure us salvation

but people are still saying Christianity is to be christlike, like being very good, 100% like Christ, so they are born again?

Alexis86:

but people are still saying Christianity is to be christlike, like being very good, 100% like Christ, so they are born again?

it is not true that anybody is Christlike. well all have adamic nature in us

paxonel:

it is not true that anybody is Christlike. well all have adamic nature in us

so what happen at Antioch where the name Christians were first called? they saw them doing good.

Alexis86:

so what happen at Antioch where the name Christians were first called? they saw them doing good.

if we are to adopt the name Christians we should have it at the back of our mind that Christianity didn't start at Antioch.
Antioch didn't save anybody.
Christianity started at the cross long before Antioch

paxonel:

if we are to adopt the name Christians we should have it at the back of our mind that Christianity didn't start at Antioch.
Antioch didn't save anybody.
Christianity started at the cross long before Antioch

that's true

Alexis86:

that's true

now, the implication of born again doctrine is that, by virtue of the fact that it makes a christian think he is righteous than any one else in Christianity, it makes that Christian feel that God loves "Him " specially,that he is the favorite of God more than anyone else in Christianity, even in the same congregation. (i have heard pastor adeboye telling his congregation he is the favorite of God than anyone else in that same congregation, and the church members telling themselves i will be more favoured by God today in this church than anyone else )
a situation where the church member will start telling himself, me, me. .and me alone and my love ones, and my friends.. he becomes selfish and bias in his prayers without thinking about the poor church members around him.
God give me car
God give me money
God kill my enemies
the doctrine makes christians think that God is bias
image a person with this kind of mindset assume a postion of authority by chance, what will he do?
he will siphon all the money for himself alone.
99% of Nigeria christians are like that unconsciously, they don't know.
because, 99% of them still hold the doctrine of born again
.

paxonel:

now, the implication of born again doctrine is that, by virtue of the fact that it makes a christian think he is righteous than any one else in Christianity, it makes that Christian feel that God loves "Him " specially,that he is the favorite of God more than anyone else in Christianity, even in the same congregation. (i have heard pastor adeboye telling his congregation he is the favorite of God than anyone else in that same congregation, and the church members telling themselves i will be more favoured by God today in this church than anyone else )
a situation where the church member will start telling himself, me, me. .and me alone and my love ones, and my friends.. he becomes selfish and bias in his prayers without thinking about the poor church members around him.
God give me car
God give me money
God kill my enemies
the doctrine makes christians think that God is bias
image a person with this kind of mindset assume a postion of authority by chance, what will he do?
he will siphon all the money for himself alone.
99% of Nigeria christians are like that unconsciously, they don't know.
because, 99% of them still hold the doctrine of born again
.

lol

Alexis86:

lol

it is funny... lol

Hmmm! Christ like behaviour..

paxonel:

it is funny... lol

paxonel:

it is funny... lol

but it is not bad praying for car, money, protection and there were instances in the bible where some people were favorites of God, for instance, David. David was favorite over Saul

Alexis86:


but it is not bad praying for car, money, protection and there were instances in the bible where some people were favorites of God, for instance, David. David was favorite over Saul

it is not bad praying for car, money, protection.
if christians think fellow christians or anybody else are hunting them spiritually, that is a big lie.
they should go to babalawo to practice their African traditional diabolism and leave church alone.
church should be a place for love.
it is true that David was favorite of God,there are other example like Jacob and Esau but that was old testament days.
in Christianity, nobody is favorite of God, God is not bias, God loves everybody equally whether you are black or white, poor or rich, short or tall, beautiful or ugly, intelligent or dull

paxonel:


it is not bad praying for car, money, protection.
if christians think fellow christians or anybody else are hunting them spiritually, that is a big lie.
they should go to babalawo to practice their African traditional diabolism and leave church alone.
church should be a place for love.
it is true that David was favorite of God,there are other example like Jacob and Esau but that was old testament days.
in Christianity, nobody is favorite of God, God is not bias, God loves everybody equally whether you are black or white, poor or rich, short or tall, beautiful or ugly, intelligent or dull

i think that ,pastor adeboye is saying that some christians are favorite than others based on experience. some church members are rich, others are poor, yet in the same congregation. it shows that God is blessing some and leaving others unblessed, so there is this contest for the few available blessing in the church... lol

Alexis86:

i think that ,pastor adeboye is saying that some christians are favorite than others based on experience. some church members are rich, others are poor, yet in the same congregation. it shows that God is blessing some and leaving others unblessed, so there is this contest for the few available blessing in the church... lol

lol...
do we go to church to contest for air to breath, or to contest for the sunlight to photosynthesize our crops or rainfall,so that we can have food to eat?
or do we go church to contest for the strength and wisdom to work hard and acquire wealth?
if we truly go to church to contest for these things, of a truth people like aliko dangote would have been poor dogs today.
because, dangote i know, is a comited Muslim.
he do not go to church in the first place, talkless of contesting

paxonel:


lol...
do we go to church to contest for air to breath, or to contest for the sunlight to photosynthesize our crops or rainfall,so that we can have food to eat?
or do we go church to contest for the strength and wisdom to work hard and acquire wealth?
if we truly go to church to contest for these things, of a truth people like aliyu dangote would have been poor dogs today.
because, dangote i know, is a comited Muslim.
he do not go to church in the first place, talkless of contesting

in otherwords, everybody in the church are blessed with the potential to make money like dangote, so long there is air, rain and sunshine?
how about, resources for making wealth such as land or capital (money ) that dangote had?
don't you think we should go to church to pray that God should bless people with money?
there are people in church out there, who have great ideas but lark resources such as money to implement their ideas

Alexis86:

in otherwords, everybody in the church are blessed with the potential to make money like dangote, so long there is air, rain and sunshine?
how about, resources for making wealth such as land or capital (money ) that dangote had?
don't you think we should go to church to pray that God should bless people with money?
there are people in church out there, who have great ideas but lark resources such as money to implement their ideas

everybody in church have potential to make wealth, that means, God is not the cause of anybody's poverty, he gives everybody equal ability and opportunity by making rain and sunlight available.
but capital, no
God didn't give anybody capital, not even dangote.
and God will not give anybody capital in church miraculously.
it's just that, some people were born into wealth while others into poverty, that differences is not Gods doing. it's a product of right and wrong decisions taken by our forefathers years back. not God.
so, we shouldn't go to church to pray for capital.
if you find yourself in a poor family, you need capital from your church to start a business and they give it to you, then you are lucky.
that means, you were not there for prayer in the first place, but your target was that capital.
prayer was a disguise.
but so far, how many churches do that?

paxonel:


everybody in church have potential to make wealth, that means, God is not the cause of anybody's poverty, he gives everybody equal ability and opportunity by making rain and sunlight available.
but capital, no
God didn't give anybody capital, not even dangote.
and God will not give anybody capital in church miraculously.
it's just that, some people were born into wealth while others into poverty, that differences is not Gods doing. it's a product of right and wrong decisions taken by our forefathers years back. not God.
so, we shouldn't go to church to pray for capital.
if you find yourself in a poor family, you need capital from your church to start a business and they give it to you, then you are lucky.
that means, you were not there for prayer in the first place, but your target was that capital.
prayer was a disguise.
but so far, how many churches do that?

I'm getting you,
let's go back to the born again thing, from all indication in the Bible it is certain that born again is not and order in Christianity But within the transition from Judaism to Christianity. But i still think that, over the years, born again has been used to separate the goats from the sheep in Christianity which i think it is justifiable, because, consider the evil that is associated with all religions (Christianity is not exempted ),in order to check evil in the world, the born again movement was postulated in Christianity

Alexis86:


I'm getting you,
let's go back to the born again thing, from all indication in the Bible it is certain that born again is not and order in Christianity But within the transition from Judaism to Christianity. But i still think that, over the years, born again has been used to separate the goats from the sheep in Christianity which i think it is justifiable, because, consider the evil that is associated with all religions (Christianity is not exempted ),in order to check evil in the world, the born again movement was postulated in Christianity

you are right,
born again has been used to separate the goats from the sheep, but at what expense?
at the expense of the mental and intellectual development of church members?
may be we should device other means to separate the sheep from the goats or our parents should train their children at home so that we will not end up raising goats in churches, because,
they made us to believe that born again is the same thing as being saved. meanwhile,there was no salvation as at the time Jesus met Nicodemus,
and church members can't develop the intelligence and critical mind to investigate the scripture to see the contradiction behind this , that is not a source of worry to our political and religious leaders.
i think it is high time for the educated extract of the Nigerian population start reading the Bible as though it is a mentally, intellectual developing curriculum against reading it for a mere religious and spiritual gratification or we are seen as a laughing stock and as a people in contradiction to the natural human instinct.
Europeans who brought Christianity to Africa have overcomed this born again problem, they have a better orientation, even western or black American pastors hardly use the phrase born again, find out. i listen to them a lot . certainly because they are not sure of it origin in Christianity.
so we really need a change in Africa

paxonel:



you are right,
born again has been used to separate the goats from the sheep, but at what expense?
at the expense of the mental and intellectual development of church members?
may be we should device other means to separate the sheep from the goats or our parents should train their children at home so that we will not end up raising goats in churches, because,
they made us to believe that born again is the same thing as being saved. meanwhile,there was no salvation as at the time Jesus met Nicodemus,
and church members can't develop the intelligence and critical mind to investigate the scripture to see the contradiction behind this , that is not a source of worry to our political and religious leaders.
i think it is high time for the educated extract of the Nigerian population start reading the Bible as though it is a mentally, intellectual developing curriculum against reading it for a mere religious and spiritual gratification or we are seen as a laughing stock and as a people in contradiction to the natural human instinct.
Europeans who brought Christianity to Africa have overcomed this born again problem, they have a better orientation, even western or black American pastors hardly use the phrase born again, find out. i listen to them a lot . certainly because they are not sure of it origin in Christianity.
so we really need a change in Africa

but most of our parents here in Africa are not educated enough to train and bring up their children, so the Nigerian government have leave their children at the mercy of our religious leaders who they see as role models to teach them moral issues from the Bible

Alexis86:


but most of our parents here in Africa are not educated enough to train and bring up their children, so the Nigerian government have leave their children at the mercy of our religious leaders who they see as role models to teach them moral issues from the Bible

may be the government should think of how to get educated parents, parents who are willing to give birth to limited number of children that are within their financial capacity to train,and let go of african tradition which promotes multiple birth that leads to poverty.
that implies that they should invest more on the education sector,update our schools curriculum and make it a quality one, then subsidize it and made tuition fee affordable for the common man
and also power to run our education facilities.
because, the standard of our schools here in Africa is nothing to write home about

paxonel:


may be the government should think of how to get educated parents, parents who are willing to give birth to limited number of children that are within their financial capacity to train,and let go of african tradition which promotes multiple birth that leads to poverty.
that implies that they should invest more on the education sector,update our schools curriculum and make it a quality one, then subsidize it and made tuition fee affordable for the common man
and also power to run our education facilities.
because, the standard of our schools here in Africa is nothing to write home about

it's true, we just hope that someday we will have a better representatives of. the people to rule this nation