gatiano:
higher with alcohol, and with alcohol a reduced sentence, murder without intent. correct me if i'm wrong. that is not the issue. drinking prohibited by sharia is what we are talking about. people who are groom to be sharia judges, officers and lawyer like i said are educated thoroughly. and i accept that such personnel are few in this world.

question: of what good is alcohol? in my own view, only revenue to the government. what other use is there? i was a heavy drinker, beer, vodka, samagon, spirits, expensive when i'm loaded and home made when broke. what use is there in drinking alcohol?

Some people can't survive without following the national hockey league. Other people love cricket. A friend of mine MUST put salt on his watermelon before he eats it. Some people like the buzz of being drunk.

Liking alcohol is not the issue. A drunk man who goes to sleep after drinking is bothering no one. He has a right to do anything he wants to HIS OWN BODY.

is that the good of alcohol? atleast prostitutes feed their children if they've got one or some, and feed their old parent. it has a good and has many bad. Alcohol has no concrete good and the rest bad, just for the sake of sakes, one bottle might be ok to have occasionally out of the reach of the adolescents and the children. but really, there is no good in it, it is just addiction. And the drunk man bothers his wife with that bad alcoholic breath, and if he is not married, he would have become more of a drunk before he marries eventually.

if you know people that can't survive without hockey or cricket, they need a doctor (lol). it doesn't mean i don't enjoy some leisure time myself. i am still thinking about what i won't be able to live without minus ALLAH the sustainer.

Weah96:


Some people can't survive without following the national hockey league. Other people love cricket. A friend of mine MUST put salt on his watermelon before he eats it. Some people like the buzz of being drunk.

Liking alcohol is not the issue. A drunk man who goes to sleep after drinking is bothering no one. He has a right to do anything he wants to HIS OWN BODY.

THEFT

As earlier stated, Shari'ah advocates have no logical or moral defense for the draconian penalties of Shari'ah. Their usual defense has always been on the basis of "deterrence". Yet, they have been able to win even non-Muslim liberals to their side.

Qur'an 5:38
As for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off the hand of either of them in requital for what they have wrought, as a deterrent ordained by God, for God is almighty, wise.

As you already know, the penalty of theft under Shari'ah is amputation. Theft of any item beyond a fixed monetary value is punished by amputation. For this reason, Shari'ah advocates can boast of lower incidence of theft in Shari'ah compliant states.
At face value amputation seem to be the ultimate measure to eliminate theft, but when we bore deeper, there are loopholes.

You see, the penal code exist also to protect life of criminals, not merely to penalize criminals. Those turned of by "jungle justice" in rural parts of underdeveloped nations. Penal codes also exist to ensure criminals pay equitably and proportionately for their crimes, not negligibly or excessively. Shari'ah law fails in this regard. Too much focus is laid on deterrence while justice or redemption for criminals is totally forgotten.

If you amputate a thief, you render him handicapped forever. Daily, he suffers for a crime even long after he has repented. Theft victims eventually recover or replace their belongings but a thief loses his hand permanently under Shari'ah. How can this be justice?

Once a thief is not always a thief. Secular laws that mostly imprison thieves captures the spirit of the scriptures better than Shari'ah. The toll of the penalty is temporary, reversible and offers thieves a second chance to make to set things right. Shari'ah law condemn thieves to misery forever.

Because this penalty for theft is unethically excessive. It violates the moral and scriptural principle of equity and moderation in handling criminal. Amputating a thief is just as good as burning down a car simply because the driver violated parking rule. It fair well as a deterrence, but it falls short of justice.

To ensure equity and balance in dealing with thieves, the value of the item(s) stolen have to be considered. That is why our first inquiry on learn of a theft is; "what was stolen?". Shari'ah failure to take this into account lead it to decree amputation for any thief, whether the stolen good is a gallon of gasoline or a motorcycle. Of course, a thief is a thief, but to penalize one who stole a piano and one who stole a van equally by amputation is injustice and disproportionate.

In the end, having lost academically, Shari'ah advocates begin invoke the scriptures.

Of course, the Qur'an 5:38 commands that thieves' 'hands' be 'cut'. But contrary to the exegesis of orthodox Muslim scholars, 'cut' and 'hands' may be metaphors in Arabic. You can't understand the Qur'an if you treat all the verses literally. Parables, Metaphors and other figures of speech can be found in the Qur'an.

The word 'cut' in the above verse is 'iqtaa' in Arabic, occuring in 14 other instances in the Qur'an, of which 12 imply non physical or metaphorical cutting. Again, the word 'hand' in the above verse is 'aydi' in arabic and is used often as metaphors for power, means or resources.

Keeping all these in mind, it is more appropriate to interpret 'cut their hand"; the penalty of theft as cut their means or resources. This may be applied by imprisonment which translate as cutting their time, or fine which translate as cutting their wealth, or labor which translate as cutting their strength.

This is in tune with modern secular laws and captures the Qur'anic spirit of proportionality and moderation regarding penalty or retaliation.

Sooner or later, you would call me a troller, for saying the truth. and to all that do not know, The truth is what the muslims (when i mean muslims, i mean muslims) will die for, A muslim will say the truth until his/her death.
why would you lie like that? why would a person just cut off the hand of a man or a woman that steals on a first occasion? what kind of Quran do you read? or do you simply use the quran that suit your interest?

Surah 5:38-39
5:38 And (as for) the man and the woman addicted to theft, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.

5:39 But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, Allah will turn to him (mercifully). Surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

what does the word addicted mean to you? and what about the following verse? do you have to cut that off? brother please, i did not say there aren't hypocrites out there. but investigate properly before you launch.

usermane:
THEFT

As earlier stated, Shari'ah advocates have no logical or moral defense for the draconian penalties of Shari'ah. Their usual defense has always been on the basis of "deterrence". Yet, they have been able to win even non-Muslim liberals to their side.



As you already know, the penalty of theft under Shari'ah is amputation. Theft of any item beyond a fixed monetary value is punished by amputation. For this reason, Shari'ah advocates can boast of lower incidence of theft in Shari'ah compliant states.
At face value amputation seem to be the ultimate measure to eliminate theft, but when we bore deeper, there are loopholes.

gatiano: Surah 5:38
And (as for) the man and the woman addicted to theft, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.

poor translation there, "addicted" is not in the verse.

Do your homework, Mister. Shari'ah punishes theft on first offense. Why don't you test that?

what kind of Quran are you reading? that is why it is required for muslims to study Arabic not from the religion point of view, but as a new language, so also, it is advisable for christians to learn Hebrew because it is the original text of both the Torah and the Gospel.
for muslims out there, especially newly arrived, Maulana Muhammad Ali translation is the best. and one more thing, quit confusing Hadith for Quran. Prophet Muhammad never wrote or made the hadith, the hadith is based on what the later people wanted or wished.

as for you, go ahead and keep on lieing and confusing people causing mischief. Addicted is there, and besides, cutting off the hands is an allergorical meaning, it does not mean that literally until it becomes a maximum punishment, meaning that it is the last stage. before that, imprisonment would be used first.
like i have stated in earlier post, the judges or officers of sharia laws are trained scientists, they will examine the theif first to ensure that he or she has no disorders.

and i will confess, i don't know arabic, do you know arabic fluently?

usermane:


poor translation there, "addicted" is not in the verse.

Do your homework, Mister. Shari'ah punishes theft on first offense. Why don't you test that?

gatiano:
Sharia is good, it is a law that put people in check, the problem is how it is applied. for example a sharia personnel must be a scientist, he must have studied a whole rage of subjects for not less than 25 to 40 years. example. a good sharia personnel would not say, kill prostitutes, no he won't, he would address first the work and duty of the woman in the society, he would ensure that the men in the society keep their responsibility to the society and their family. when all that is proper, then any protitute and her customer and love-vendor must be brought to justice.
A good sharia personnel will not suddenly stop a man that drinks 8 bottles of beer everyday, that is killing the man, the purpose now will be to save the man by helping him spiritually to stop drinking by reducing the beer, like, make the man start drinking 6 bottle for a whole month, then reduce to five, then to 4 till he can do without the beers, it might take 6 to 9 months. this is how sharia can clean up a whole country, plus also remove officials stealing public funds. sharia is science and mathematics.

According to you and not according to Islam and definitely not according to your quaran or hadith.Also not according to the general practise of Islamists in Iran,Pakistan,Saudi & worldwide that know Islam more than you.
?Sharia
Moreover you think its right to kill a prostitute after scientifically trying to address the cause of the prostitution & she continues.Are there not more mild punishments like imprisonment.Why must your religion always be about death,slaughter,beheading and blood letting.Did the prostitute shed blood?

You made a good point, the question is what happened to Islam? The Quran is a perfect book, You won't find it lacking, it is so clear and balanced that i consider it it best of all books. The problem was that three generations after Prophet Muhammad (saw) died, the arabs changed course of Islam, instead of the Quran, they created the hadith. the hadith is the cause of all the problems in the muslims words. hadiths were created years after the death of the prophet. hadith is for the arabs to control blacks and hide the truth from the black people. I for one use only the Quran. And one would find that all the books contain some allergorical meaning, but some people without indepth or with full knowledge of it would just chose to give it their own meaning to achieve their personal aim. so it is in the bible. while you christians love to point fingers at muslims, you forget to look at yourselves and your past.

Anomnity:

According to you and not according to Islam and definitely not according to your quaran or hadith.Also not according to the general practise of Islamists in Iran,Pakistan,Saudi & worldwide that know Islam more than you.
?Sharia
Moreover you think its right to kill a prostitute after scientifically trying to address the cause of the prostitution & she continues.Are there not more mild punishments like imprisonment.Why must your religion always be about death,slaughter,beheading and blood letting.Did the prostitute shed blood?

gatiano:
You made a good point, the question is what happened to Islam? The Quran is a perfect book, You won't find it lacking, it is so clear and balanced that i consider it it best of all books.

I don't agree that the quran is a perfect book.Many verses in it clearly promote unjustified bloodshed and slaughter.You cannot claim to know more than all the multitudes of Islamists and Islamic scholars in Iran,Iraq,Saudi,Pakistan that live by the quran alone and are breathing slaughter against harmless,crimeless,innocent people all because they are infidels.

bring on the verses brother, bring it on, let us settle here and now, i haven't read the whole of Quran, not even 30%, but i'm very sure that you are very wrong. bring it on if you are true. throw out the verses where in it says kill without a reason.

Anomnity:

I don't agree that the quran is a perfect book.Many verses in it clearly promote unjustified bloodshed and slaughter.You cannot claim to know more than all the multitudes of Islamists and Islamic scholars in Iran,Iraq,Saudi,Pakistan that live by the quran alone and are breathing slaughter against harmless,crimeless,innocent people all because they are infidels.

usermane:
Because this penalty for theft is unethically excessive. It violates the moral and scriptural principle of equity and moderation in handling criminal. Amputating a thief is just as good as burning down a car simply because the driver violated parking rule. It fair well as a deterrence, but it falls short of justice.

To ensure equity and balance in dealing with thieves, the value of the item(s) stolen have to be considered. That is why our first inquiry on learn of a theft is; "what was stolen?". Shari'ah failure to take this into account lead it to decree amputation for any thief, whether the stolen good is a gallon of gasoline or a motorcycle. Of course, a thief is a thief, but to penalize one who stole a piano and one who stole a van equally by amputation is injustice and disproportionate.

In the end, having lost academically, Shari'ah advocates begin invoke the scriptures.

Sharia also misses it because they'll cut off the hand of a poor petty criminal that steals a motor bike but will ignore a thieving government official that steals millions or billions of government funds with his pen.I've never heard of a rich man that ever got amputated in sharia regions yet many of them looted to wealth.You only get to see poor,wretched folks being amputated.

gatiano:
bring on the verses brother, bring it on, let us settle here and now, i haven't read the whole of Quran, not even 30%, but i'm very sure that you are very wrong. bring it on if you are true. throw out the verses where in it says kill without a reason.

Now I know you are probably seeking prolonged arguements because you and I know that so many threads and posts have been made on this matter on this forum.I'm not in the mood for that sort of thing now so you can easily use nairaland search tool to find the relevant posts and threads.

Username: Because this penalty for theft is unethically excessive. It violates the moral and scriptural principle of equity and moderation in handling criminal. Amputating a thief is just as good as burning down a car simply because the driver violated parking rule.

Three persons are not blessed with the complete understanding of the Qu'ran.The first is one who is not versed in Arabic.The second is on who persists in committing a major sin or indulged in act of religious innovation.The third is the one who's a rationalist even in the matter of faith and feels embarrassed when he reads an Ayah of the Qu'ran which he is not able to fully rationalize[Keemiyaa-E-Sa'daat]

The underlined applied to you usermane.To you, some verses of the Qu'ran are harsh and you try as much as possible to rationalize them out with your brain.It leads to nothing but error and utter ruins.
May Allah(Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala) guide us.

usermane:
Of course, the Qur'an 5:38 commands that thieves' 'hands' be 'cut'. But contrary to the exegesis of orthodox Muslim scholars, 'cut' and 'hands' may be metaphors in Arabic. You can't understand the Qur'an if you treat all the verses literally. Parables, Metaphors and other figures of speech can be found in the Qur'an.

I don't think you are the in the position to write exegesis of the Qu'ran.This is so because a exegesis written by a person based on personal opinion is prohibited and will to lead to nothing but utter ruins.There are no less than 15 subjects that one must be versed in before laying hands on writing exegesis of the Qu'ran.

Specialists had laid down that anyone attempting a commentary of the glorious Qu'ran should be well-versed in 15 subjects which will be listed below:

1)Lughat(The Philosophy Of Language): It helps in understanding the appropriate meaning of words.Mujahid(May Allah be pleased with him)says ''One who believes in Allah and the day of Judgement should not open his lips in the respect of the Qu'ran unless he is thoroughly conversant with the philosophy Of Arabic Language''.

Quite often, an arabic word has several meanings.A person may be knowing only one or two of them, though in a given context the actual meaning may be different.

2)Nahw(Syntax):A branch of grammar which helps in understanding the relation of a sentence to another and also the I'raab(vowel sounds) of the letters of a word.A change in I'raab(vowel sounds) often means a change in meaning.

3)Sarf(Etymology):A branch of grammar which helps in knowing the root words and conjugations.The meaning of a word changes with the change in the root and with a change in its conjugation.

Ibn Faris(May Allah be pleased with him) says ''One who loses the knowledge of etymology loses a great deal''.
Imaam Zamakhshari(May Allah be pleased with him) mentioned that when a certain person wants to translate an Ayah of the Qu'ran.

Surah Al-Isra 17:71 -(And remember) the Day when We shall call together all human beings with their Imâm(leader)

He supposed that the plural of the arabic word 'Umm' is 'Imaam'.If he had been conversant with sarf, he would have known that the plural of 'Umm' is not 'Imaam'.

4)Ishitiqaaq(Derivates):It is necessary to have the knowledge of derivates and their root words because if a word has been derived from two different root words, it will have two different meanings.For example, the word 'Maseeh' is derivable from 'Masah' which means 'to touch or to move wet hands over' and also from 'Masaahah' which means measurement.

5)Ilm Ma'aani(Knowledge Of Semantics):This is so because phrase constructions are understood from their meanings.

6)Ilm Bayyan(Knowledge Of Figures of Speech):Figures of speech like similes and metaphors due to which expressions or shades of meanings or similies and metaphors become known.

7)Ilm Badee'(Knowledge Of Rhetoric):The knowledge which reveals the beauty of language and its implications.

N.B(5,6 and 7 are the branches of Ilm Balaaghah(Knowledge Of Oratory) and are considered very important subjects which a commentator should master because the glorious Qu'ran is a prefect miracle and its amazing construction can only be understood after mastering these subjects.


Ilm Qiraa'ah(Knowledge Of The Art Of Pronunciation):This is so because different methods of recitation sometimes convey different meanings and sometimes one meaning is preferred to another.

9)Ilm Aqeedah(Knowledge Of The Fundamentals Of Faith) :This is necessary to explain certain analogies.The literal meaning of certain Ayahs of The Qu'ran referring to Almighty Allah is not the correct literal meaning.
For example, the analogy in the verse.
'The Hand of Allah is over their hands'.
Without a comprehensive knowledge of Tawheed Asma Wa Siffat, one can't explain this because hands can't be described and aren't physical.

10)Usoolul Fiqh(Principles Of Islam Jurisprudence):These are necessary for reasoning out and finding arguments in the basic support of statements.

11)Asbaabun Nuzool(Circumstances surrounding the cause of revelation):The meaning of an Ayah will be better understood if we know how,why and when it had been revealed.Sometimes the true meaning of an Ayah is understood only if we know the circumstances surrounding the reasons the verse had been revealed.This will help in taking verses in context and not out of context.


12)An Naasikh Walaikum Mansookh:This is the Knowledge Of commandments that have subsequently been abrogated or changed, so that abrogated commandments can be distinguished from standing ones.

13)Ilm Fiqh(Knowledge Of Islamic Jurisprudence):Because it's only through this knowledge that we arrive at a complete understanding of general principles.

14)The knowledge Of Ahadith(Plural Of hadith-sayings of the Prophet(Peace and blessings be upon him and household):
Some Ahadith happen to be commentary of certain brief verses of the Qu'ran.We


15)The last but most important is the Wahbi Ilm(The Gifted Knowledge) bestowed by Almighty Allah upon his selected slaves.


An Hadith says 'Whosoever acts upon what he knows, Almighty Allah bestows upon him the knowledge Of things unknown to him'.

Ali Ibn Abi Talib(May Allah be pleased with him) says: 'I swear by Him who made paradise and created life that I possess nothing special except the clear understanding which Allah bestows upon me in respect of the Qu'ran'.

How many of the above do you possesses?

Usermane: The word 'cut' in the above verse is 'iqtaa' in Arabic, occuring in 14 other instances in the Qur'an, of which 12 imply non physical or metaphorical cutting. Again, the word 'hand' in the above verse is 'aydi' in arabic and is used often as metaphors for power, means or resources.

This is very dubious on your own part.The verse reads wa sariku wa sarikat qatu fa'aqtau aydihuma jaz'a bimaa Qa-Tàà-à(Qaf tà Àin) means to cut in arabic and you failed to show us where 'Aydi' in arabic is often used as power or means or resources.These are verses the arabic word 'Aydi' is used.

Surah An-Nisa 4:43 -..................fatayammamoo saAAeedan t ayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekum inna Alla ha kana AAafuwwan ghafooran

..................perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands (Tayammum).Truly, Allah is Ever Oft-Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving.

Aydi means hands here not power nor resources.
Another one.
Surah An-Nisa 4:62 -Fakayfa itha asabathum museebatun bima qaddamat aydeehim..................

How then, when a catastrophe befalls them because of what their hands have sent forth..................
Why don't you translate Aydeehim in the above verse to their power instead of their hands?
There are many examples, Aydi is hands not power.
Kindly give us your own.

Usermane: Keeping all these in mind, it is more appropriate to interpret 'cut their hand"; the penalty of theft as cut their means or resources. This may be applied by imprisonment which translate as cutting their time, or fine which translate as cutting their wealth, or labor which translate as cutting their strength.
This is in tune with modern secular laws and captures the Qur'anic spirit of proportionality and moderation regarding penalty or retaliation.

Your explanations do not hold water and laughable, it's your personal thinking which should be thrown into the dustbin.

For cutting of hands of thieves to take place, it must be a state where is Zakat is fully integrated in the economy and it serves as a social seciruty to feed and cater for the unemployed. You cannot cut a thief's hand for stealing food as he was hungry and it is the responsibility of the state to feed him.This punishment is a dettrent again in an islamic society and prevents anyone from stealing.
This is a beautiful story.
Once,Ibn Umar(ra)went to the market and someone picked his pocket.When people in the market realized that his money was stolen,they started to make dua to destroy the person that robbed Ibn Umar(ra).

At this moment,Ibn Umar (ra) raised his hands and said, O Allah,if this person took it because he was in need,O Allah,bless this money for him. O Allah,if he is a professional thief,O Allah,then make this one the last of his sins.

This is a noble companion of Muhammad(pbuh) asking Allah to bless a thief if he has stolen because he was hungry.

CONCLUSION

If you consider Shari'ah academically, morally or spiritually, it is utterly bereft. Yet it get the vote of 90% of Muslims, non-Muslim leftists and liberals, most of whom are ignorant of Shari'ah decrees.

Make no mistake, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There is more to the injustice and oppression in Shari'ah than death for apostates, stoning adulterers or amputating thieves. In my next article; Shari'ah II: Phantom Heaven, i will delve further into other areas of Shari'ah.

Regarding my metaphorical interpretation of Qur'an 5:38, please read more here; http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm

For the sake of time, i had refrained from elaborating extensively on this verse in this thread. I have met individuals who understand Arabic far more than many orthodox clerics today, and they interpret this verse metaphorically.

lanrexlan:
Your explanations do not hold water and laughable, it's your personal thinking which should be thrown into the dustbin.

For cutting of hands of thieves to take place, it must be a state where is Zakat is fully integrated in the economy and it serves as a social seciruty to feed and cater for the unemployed. You cannot cut a thief's hand for stealing food as he was hungry and it is the responsibility of the state to feed him.This punishment is a dettrent again in an islamic society and prevents anyone from stealing.

I wholly disagree with you on this. A critical study of your own tradition imply that several cases of theft were dealt with during the the Prophet 's time and people even stole after losing one hand. Here is a sample:

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:

A thief was brought to the Prophet (ﷺ). He said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Messenger of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his hand. So his (right) hand was cut off. He was brought a second time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Messenger of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his foot. So his (left) foot was cut off. He was brought a third time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Messenger of Allah! So he said: Cut off his hand. (So his (left) hand was cut off.) He was brought a fourth time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Messenger of Allah! So he said: Cut off his foot. So his (right) foot was cut off.

He was brought a fifth time and he said: Kill him. So we took him away and killed him. We then dragged him and cast him into a well and threw stones over him.

Sunan Abi Dawud » Book of Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud) » Hadith 4396

That, according to your traditions happened in the Prophet 's days, in the Islamic state where Zakat distribution and amputation for theft is enforced, supposedly serving as measures to eliminate theft. How come all these barriers or measures didn't deter or prevent the same man from stealing again and again(5 times) until all his limbs were amputated and he eventually had to be killed? I don't know how it is possible for a man steal after losing both hands and feet, but thank God i no longer buy hadith, otherwise like you, am left with no choice but to believe this ridiculous fable.

Mister, the knowledge of the scriptures is not in the language. It is in the reasoning.


Qur'an 10:100
It is not for a person to acknowledge except by God's leave. He casts the affliction upon those who do not reason.

Qur'an 17:36
Do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these are held responsible for that.

Qur'an 39:18
The ones who listen to the word, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

usermane:
CONCLUSION

If you consider Shari'ah academically, morally or spiritually, it is utterly bereft. Yet it get the vote of 90% of Muslims, non-Muslim leftists and liberals, most of whom are ignorant of Shari'ah decrees.

Make no mistake, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There is more to the injustice and oppression in Shari'ah than death for apostates, stoning adulterers or amputating thieves. In my next article; Shari'ah 2, i will delve further into other areas of Shari'ah.

Non Muslim leftists don't support sharia law. Where did you get your information?

it shows that you are not confident with what you are saying, you are a mischief maker, you don't read, you follow just what others say, it may be that in the end, you are a heaven candidate but just because you are follower of what you are not sure of, you would follow the devils to hell. call out your friends, come in hundreds, i'm all here, show me where quran says spill blood.

Anomnity:
Now I know you are probably seeking prolonged arguements because you and I know that so many threads and posts have been made on this matter on this forum.I'm not in the mood for that sort of thing now so you can easily use nairaland search tool to find the relevant posts and threads.

Weah96:


Non Muslim leftists don't support sharia law. Where did you get your information?

Yes, leftists and liberals like George Galloway in the West support Islamists in fighting for Shari'ah. They have succeeded markedly in several states of Europe, notably UK.

usermane:


Yes, leftists and liberals like George Galloway in the West support Islamists in fighting for Shari'ah. They have succeeded markedly in several states of Europe, notably UK.

I didn't know that. But are you sure these guys are leftists or anarchists? They may be trying to rapidly precipitate a complete breakdown in law and order. That's anarchism, not leftism.

gatiano:
it shows that you are not confident with what you are saying, you are a mischief maker, you don't read, you follow just what others say, it may be that in the end, you are a heaven candidate but just because you are follower of what you are not sure of, you would follow the devils to hell. call out your friends, come in hundreds, i'm all here, show me where quran says spill blood.

When your cover has been blown you folks resort to insults.I'll not descend so low to join issues with you.Since you are bent on insults the discussion should end here.But I'll leave you with this.Go and check the relevant verses that your type in Iraq,Palestine,Iraq,boko haram and ISIS are quoting to justify their bloodshed.

gatiano:
it shows that you are not confident with what you are saying, you are a mischief maker, you don't read, you follow just what others say, it may be that in the end, you are a heaven candidate but just because you are follower of what you are not sure of, you would follow the devils to hell. call out your friends, come in hundreds, i'm all here, show me where quran says spill blood.

Kill those who don't believe in Allah

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Use violence even if it contravenes common sense:

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Punishment for non Muslims MUST occur on earth otherwise Allah becomes a liar:

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Polytheists will be struck with terror. Trinitarians beware:

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Jihad should be greeted with a reward as long as the jihadist claims to do the will of Allah:


Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."


Allah prefers violent Muslims to the non violent ones:

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward"

Kill non believers by decapitation. Other means may be accepted.

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Good Muslims should not sit at home. Use your financial resources for Jihad:
Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant."

Find more violent Quranic verses from the religion of peace here:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

Username. I ll like you to understand something if you care. The aspect of sharia is like the constitution of a country, the best person who will be able to explain a constitution is not the citizen of a country but either a judge or a lawyer.
If you agree with the above, what a muslim who doesn't study shariah in islam would give you is likely to be proportional to what citizens would tell you about their constitution. Why, where, when a particular is appied may not be gotten from all moslems.
Now i will like to challenge you. If truely you want to learn, learn from both sides, ask question from both sides. Those who are in support and against it. But i doubt if we have some1 on nairaland who has full knowlege of shariah. God knows best. Peace be with you all.

you are a liar, and you lack a faculty, wisdom and intiative to want to learn, study or read.

Anomnity:
When your cover has been blown you folks resort to insults.I'll not descend so low to join issues with you.Since you are bent on insults the discussion should end here.But I'll leave you with this.Go and check the relevant verses that your type in Iraq,Palestine,Iraq,boko haram and ISIS are quoting to justify their bloodshed.

george upon weah 96, i knew you would come, and its good, just a moment, let me have my meal. and when quoting words either from the bible, or Quran, always start from the beginning of the sentence. " And" really cannot start a sentence. just a moment.

Weah96:


Kill those who don't believe in Allah

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Use violence even if it contravenes common sense:

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Punishment for non Muslims MUST occur on earth otherwise Allah becomes a liar:

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

gatiano:
you are a liar, and you lack a faculty, wisdom and intiative to want to learn, study or read.

please, dont call som1 u want to explain something to a liar. It elevates the barrier between you and the person. The one you know explain it to them in the best of manners. When it get to a point of argument and insult, try and keep silent or walk away. Even muslim like me learn from your post, dont keep us off with insults. May God protect us all

usermane:
Regarding my metaphorical interpretation of Qur'an 5:38, please read more here; http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm

Comparing the issue of theft during the time Yusuf(as) and the time of prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is ridiculous.The faith of the past Prophets(Peace be upon them all) is the same but their shariah is definitely different.

Surah Al-Maeda 5:48 -And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures).
So judge among them by what Allâh has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you.To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allâh had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allâh; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ

To each Prophet be his own shariah.So using Benjamin(Brother Of Yusuf)'s case is not feasible.

Usermane: For the sake of time, i had refrained from elaborating extensively on this verse.I had met individuals who understand Arabic far more than many orthodox clerics today and they interpret this verse metaphorically.

@Underlined, it's not about being vast in arabic language alone, it goes beyond that.I gave you 15 subjects in which one must possesses before he can interpret the Qu'ran.How many do you or the people you met possess?

There's a man that also vast in arabic language, he had a PhD in arabic studies he's a muslim but doesn't offer solat.To him, solat in arabic language doesn't basically mean a mechanical worship with your mind fully present as taught by the Prophet(Peace be upon him and his household), to him it's just supplication so he can lie on his bed performing his own solat.I think that's how you too also offer yours.
Some words in arabic language when used in Qu'ranic context is quite different.Typical example is the word 'Salat'.

Usermane: I wholly disagree with you on this. A critical study of your own tradition reveals that several cases of theft were dealt with during the the Prophet 's time and people even stole after losing one hand. Here is a sample:



That, according to your traditions happened in the Prophet 's days, in the Islamic state where Zakat distribution and amputation for theft is enforced, supposedly serving as measures to eliminate theft. How come all these barriers or measures didn't deter or prevent the same man from stealing again and again(5 times) until all his limbs were amputated and he eventually had to be killed? I don't know how it is possible for a man steal after losing both hands and feet,

Stealing sometimes doesn't mean the person doesn't have the resources.He/she just have the urge to steal.Have you heard of kleptomania? About Rich people that suffered from kleptomania? They have the resources but yet still steals.
People do things based on their selfish desires, even if the resources is abundant people still want more and some doesn't care the care they get it.Greed is the cause.
Yorubas will say 'O le mu esin lo odo, o le fi agidi fun lomi mu' meaning 'You can a horse to the river, but you can't force it to drink'.

Usermane: but thank God i no longer buy hadith, otherwise like you, am left with no choice but to believe this ridiculous fable.

That's your problem, not mine.You don't buy hadith and yet you are using hadith to say there's no hadith funny one.

Usermane: Mister, the knowledge of the scriptures is not in the language. It is in the reasoning.

Where did I say the language only? I listed 15 things you must possess if you want to have a deep understanding of the Qu'ran.Language is one of them, you neglected the rest.

Language also plays an important role because if you don't have the correct command of the language you may end up saying rubbish.Reading D.O fagunwa 'Ogboju Ode ninu Igbo Irunmole' and Wole Soyinka's translation of it, you will see the difference is clear.

The sahabas were vast in arabic language and yet they will even ask the meaning of certain words in arabic they don't understand.
Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "Nothing is left of the prophetism except Al- Mubashshirat." They asked, "What are Al- Mubashshirat?" He replied, "The true good dreams (that conveys glad tidings).
Don't the sahabas know what Al-Mubashirat is in arabic? They do, but they don't understand the context in which the Prophet(Peace be upon him and household) used it.There are many examples of such, understanding arabic language isn't tantamount to understanding the Qu'ran.
@underlined, if we were to follow the reasoning and interpretation of each tom, dick and harry then we will be in nothing but loss and we will follow nothing but error.The Qu'ran says in Al-Anaam [6:116] And if you obey most of those on the earth, they will mislead you far away from Allâh's Path. They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie.
So if you brought forth your so called reasoning and I brought forward my so called reasoning and Everyone brought forth his/her own reasoning we will have nothing but contradicting opinions.

So we don't follow personal reasoning in matters relating to the Qu'ran and worship in Islam.

Usermane:
Qur'an 10:100
It is not for a person to acknowledge except by God's leave. He casts the affliction upon those who do not reason.

Qur'an 17:36
Do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these are held responsible for that.

Qur'an 39:18
The ones who listen to the word, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Lol, intelligence? Even the people of Thamud and Ad' were intelligent, Allah(Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala) testifies to it but yet their intelligence leads them to nothing but ruins.

When you start to interpret scriptures with your so called intelligence, it will only lead to commotion.

Surah Al-Imran 3:7 -It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book . In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allâh. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding.

I am sorry, and thankyou for the warning, it shows maturity. just misinformation and mischiefs causes a lot of bloodshed. When i was a kid, i will steal chocolate and anything, mMy dad will always beat the hell out of both my right and left hands, and it may proceed to my bumbum. He later told me when i'm grown, that how will he have beaten me because of a common chocolate that he bought for us to eat? He scolded me because i refused to confess that i took it, i was lieing and beside too much chocolate is not good in a warm weather like ours. Lies destroys people and the world. some lie to protect self (ok Good), and some just lie to cause bloodshed out of intentional or ignorant mischief. thankyou brother, i will watch it.

ypeace:

please, dont call som1 u want to explain something to a liar. It elevates the barrier between you and the person. The one you know explain it to them in the best of manners. When it get to a point of argument and insult, try and keep silent or walk away. Even muslim like me learn from your post, dont keep us off with insults. May God protect us all

Weah96
First thing brother, when you read from the internet (its good), but you are required to verify and/or investigate. It doesn't take any of your time, it adds up to your wisdom and knowledge and it helps you understand better. you've probably just browse some links, copy and paste without reading it or you read it and loved how it suit your desire and you just didn't care about the truth. anyways that been said, its nice that you came up with an arguement through which we might both learn a thing or two.

You wrote: Kill those who don't believe in Allah
my question to you is what is the difference between ALLAH, GOD, JEHOVA, ELEDUMARE, ELLEDUA, EL, YAHWEH, MARDUKE, BRAHMA? Are they not all refering to the same one Creator?
How then will GOD/ALLAH, order the death of those who true believe and are righteous?

2:62 Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, they have their reward with their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

You quote: Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

show the or tell me the quran translation that you read from. does it make sense to say "disbelief is worse than killing", it implies GOD lack the brain to comprehend simple sentence. what is to disbelief? whether one believes or disbelief is an abstract verb, and how can that be compared to the verb word "killing" which is a direct action word? from google and wikipedia we can check the meaning of Fitna :

Fitna (or fitnah, pl. fitan; Arabic: فتنة , فتن‎: "temptation, trial; sedition, civil strife"[1]) is an Arabic word with extensive connotations of trial, affliction, or distress.
so where did you get the word "disbelief" from? Here is the verse from Maulana Muhammad Ali translation, and in full 2: 189-193

2:189 They ask thee of the new moons. Say: They are times appointed for men, and (for) the pilgrimage. And it is not righteousness that you enter the houses by their backs, but he is righteous who keeps his duty. And go into the houses by their doors; and keep your duty to Allah, that you may be successful.

2:190 And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors.

2:191 And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, and persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it; so if they fight you (in it), slay them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

2:192 But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

2:193 And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah. But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

A righteous muslim will never be the aggressor.

if a person ventures into my properties with the intention of taking it over, i have the right to protect my life, my familys' lives and properties. The united state gives the right to shoot on trespassers or buglars. and since an aggressor will keep coming back, kill him once and for all and/or send him out or banish him, not just that but to send them out from where they have send us out. what is wrong in taking back what belongs to me? what is wrong with africans wanting back their lands under their full control, what would be wrong with native americans wanting back their whole lot of land? The palestinians too.

Persecution is worse than slaughter. what does persecution means? all of the black people of the world are and are still persecuted by the europeans (christian), slavery is persecution.
according to wiki: Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another individual or group. The inflicting of suffering, harassment, isolation, imprisonment, internment, fear, or pain are all factors that may establish persecution. Even so, not all suffering will necessarily establish persecution. it further went on to say- The suffering experienced by the victim must be sufficiently severe. The threshold level of severity has been a source of much debate. which means that they do not know the effect or degree of what that persecution can do to a humanlife. and you would have the gust to put down black people.

in your heart, decide for yourself which is worse.

And fight not with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it; so if they fight you (in it), slay them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

2:192 But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

2:193 And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah. But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
These are clear messages to those that have understanding.

your quotes: Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

can you just go on fighting like a bull without reason? that is possible with the devils no doubt. what does fighting means in this context? does it only mean throwing punches, shooting and stabbing? what about fighting cancer? what about fighting against lowly desires? what about striving? what about ensuring that you complete your fast till when it is required to be broken while you are as hungry and thirsty as hell? don't you know it requires strength/fighting to not burst out when you are extremely angry? what about fighting against lust so as to prevent divorce, adultery or fornication which may lead to either disease or killing of a new life? now from your beloved google/wiki what is fight?
take part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons.
"the men were fighting"
synonyms: brawl, exchange blows, attack each other, assault each other, hit each other, punch each other; More
struggle, grapple, wrestle;
informalscrap, have a set-to, roughhouse, engage in fisticuffs
"two men were fighting"
violent, combative, aggressive, pugnacious, truculent, belligerent, bellicose, scrappy
"a fighting man"
antonyms: peaceful
engage in (a war or battle).
"there was another war to fight"
synonyms: (do) battle, go to war, take up arms, be a soldier; More
engage, meet, clash, skirmish
"they fought in the First World War"
engage in, wage, conduct, prosecute, undertake
"a war fought for freedom"
quarrel or argue.
"she didn't want to fight with her mother all the time"
synonyms: quarrel, argue, bicker, squabble, fall out, have a fight, have a row, wrangle, be at odds, disagree, differ, have words, bandy words, be at each other's throats, be at loggerheads;
informalscrap
"they are always fighting"
struggle to put out (a fire, especially a large one).
"two fire trucks raced to the scene to fight the blaze"
endeavor vigorously to win (an election or other contest).
campaign determinedly for or against something, especially to put right what one considers unfair or unjust.
"I will fight for more equitable laws"
synonyms: campaign, strive, battle, struggle, contend, crusade, agitate, lobby, push, press
"fighting against wage reductions"
struggle or campaign against (something).
"the best way to fight fascism abroad and racism at home"
synonyms: oppose, contest, contend with, confront, challenge, combat, dispute, quarrel with, argue against/with, strive against, struggle against
"they will fight the decision"
attempt to repress (a feeling or an expression of a feeling).
"she had to fight back tears of frustration"
synonyms: repress, restrain, suppress, stifle, smother, hold back, fight back, keep in check, curb, control, rein in, choke back;
informalkeep the lid on
"Tyler fought the urge to stick his tongue out"
take part in a boxing match against (an opponent).
move forward with difficulty, especially by pushing through a crowd or overcoming physical obstacles.
"she watched him fight his way across the room"
archaic
command, manage, or maneuver (troops, a ship, or military equipment) in battle.
"General Hill fights his troops well"

pick any one of the meaning. all is of the actions of your mind. and that, you must fight, you must fight to say/keep and share the truth.

your quote: Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
You refuse to mention why that is, so i will quote from 3:55-57. cutting GOD's words to suit a lowly desire, you must fight it from inside yourself by yourself.

3:55-57 Quran:
3:55 When Allah said: O Jesus, I will cause thee to die and exalt thee in My presence and clear thee of those who disbelieve and make those who follow thee above those who disbelieve to the day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, so I shall decide between you concerning that wherein you differ.

3:56 Then as to those who disbelieve, I shall chastise them with severe chastisement in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.

3:57 And as to those who believe and do good deeds, He will pay them fully their rewards. And Allah loves not the unjust.

The unjust people have the habit of lieing against the prophets, they did so on all of the prophets, They lied on Jesus, and even we as muslims, if we do not believe in the truth teachings of Jesus, we are to suffer now in the devils' world and suffer in the hereafter after the devils are removed. but who so ever believe and do good deeds will have their rewards, even the devil too (devil is a man).

your quote: once again cut short. Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

from Quran 3: 149-151
3:149 O you who believe, if you obey those who disbelieve, they will make you turn back upon your heels, so you will turn back losers.

3:150 Nay, Allah is your Patron, and He is the Best of the helpers.

3:151 We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the Fire. And evil is the abode of the wrongdoers.

in Yoruba, it is said that a dog that walks with a sheep will eat shiiit. GOD does not need to punish the polytheist. what they do brings suffering on them, except those that fool them to do so. as you can see the pastorpreneurs and the chief priest that the polytheists obey.

so brother, i will stop here for now, read for yourself the complete context and then bring your arguements.

as a believer in the teachings of Elijah Muhammad and from His Teacher Who was GOD himself, we know who the devils are and also we know what the arabs are that they created the hadith to fool the world to suit their hunger for power and control. Muhammad did not write the hadith. the Quran is clear enough.

i may continue maybe.

[quote author=Weah96 post=28877234]