Last two centuries, the Western ideas have started spreading through out the world, while the Islamic civilization have shrunk slowly. But today, it seems the old civilization (Islam) is comming back while the westerners start to doubt about it. do you think these two great civilizations can coexist side by side ? if yes, what kind of measures should the peace lovers take?

let's hear your opinion[quote][/quote]

what is islamic civilization?

what are the tenets and doctrines of this civilisation? are they amputation, sucide bombing, beheading, terrorism and violence against women?

how does ur islamic civilization correspond to 21st century realities?  how does islam in any way propagate 21st century agitation for civil liberties?

there is no islamic civilization, we simply have belligerent islamic states. Does this mythical civilization contribute anything meaningfully to the world beyond death and violence?

davidylan:

there is no islamic civilization, we simply have belligerent islamic states. Does this mythical civilization contribute anything meaningfully to the world beyond death and violence?

none at all. Just everything evil u can imagine.

And considering that "allah" has also commanded them to conquer the world by force, I wonder what's civilised in that?

islamic civilisation?

ok, that must be what we see in Zamfara state nigeria, poverty, ignorance, unbelievable infant and maternal mortality rates and yeah, polio!

reindeer you didnt add meningitis?

do you think these two great civilizations can coexist side by side ?

Firstly, there is no Islamic "civilisation". A loose group of totalitarian nations practising a barbaric religion can in no way be termed "civilisation".

Secondly, Islam does not want to coexist with any religion. One only has to take a look at the many instances where it interacts with other religions to see that it's only aim is to destroy all that it does not agree with.

honestly the ignorance displayed here is phenomenal. Inshallah when i am less busy i would give an insight into islamic civilisation in the last 1420 years.

A civilisation in the islamic world when europe was leaving in the dark ages , a civilisation that was spread to europe through andalus. A civilisation english people learned from the andalusians and general spanish and pportugeuese people.

Many people never know how the science of navigation came into being. Some are not aware how the clock we use today was developed. Little are aware how the astronomical breakthrough came about and the history of the persicope. Ignorant people never seem to remember the main players in the develpment mathematics. Little do we know the social security veeb practised in western world has been with islamic civilisation thousands of years ago.

How can we forget the encouragment of sciencein islam at a time eurpoeans were killing their scientist cos of the notion that the earth was flat. Little do we remember the islamic civilsation spread from the east to the west to Africa and beyon. The civilastion and islamic architecture of which the taj mahal is stil a living testomony. The great civilisation still standing with evidence in spain till date.

How is it only the criminal penal code of islam you peole choose to single out? Amputation.

reindeer:

islamic civilisation?

ok, that must be what we see in Zamfara state nigeria, poverty, ignorance, unbelievable infant and maternal mortality rates and yeah, polio!

If it is not ignorance how can you single out zamfara state in the context of Islamic civilisation that spans from the gulf of Arabia to the caucuses of Russia. A civilisation that moves from India to the depth of west Africa. You single out the poverty of the zamfara and polio to islam. Honestly please for the sake of intellectualism it would be wise to eat your words. The poverty and famine of Christian ethopia must have been due to islam right or the shacks and slums of the niger delta Nigeria. Somebody says meningitis . . . gosh lets have a healthy debate and intellectual discourse based on maturity and not sarcastic comments that inflames the flames of hatred.

This toic is a very interesting one that we could have a healthy analysis on. If you guys are up for it I am down for it but if it is based on these useless and sarcastic comments trivilising issues to zamfara state when we should be looking at issues globally as most of us live abroad anyway then we would be doing a great justice to the topic.

A civilisation in the islamic world when europe was leaving in the dark ages , a civilisation that was spread to europe through andalus. A civilisation english people learned from the andalusians and general spanish and pportugeuese people.

This is the usual argument used by the ignorant appeasers of Islam.
Where is this civilisation you talk about now? The events you are burbling about took place over 600 years ago!!!
We may as well talk about how great the Roman Empire is. Or Babylon. They have just as much relevance to our lives today.

There is no Islamic civilisation. Perhaps there was in the past but it doesn't exist now.
Even then, I would state the "civilisation" is a loose term to use about Islamic forced colonisation. You may claim that Islam was great for science but you totally fail to mention that most of the scientist were not Muslims - they were the native people in their own conquered lands. The claim that Islam birthed much of science is a fallacy - it merely helped to encourage a climate where scientists could work. But is it doing that now??!!! Emphatically no!!! Islam forces women away at schools, insists that teaching has to be compatible with dogma and in Pakistan alone is responsible for the destruction of thousands of schools. Get real!!! Living on so-called past victories whilst the Islam of today is slowly destroying them is hypocritical, ignorant and just plain false.

Burble on all you like about "great Islamic civilisation" but show me one instance where it survives today. Statements like "it was responsible for creating this or that 600 years ago" are not only misleading but totally irrelevant to the times we live in today.

Bastage

A man that fails to regard his hostory can never live to be a great  man. The poster posted a question about islamic civilastion the decline and the sudden re emergence and wanted insightful contribution. about four peolple posted and said there is no  islamic civilisation which is absolutely false and u have subtly agreed it did exist but declined. In intellectual discourse we look backwards, look at history and then move on to the contemporary to see what is happening. Thisis the spirit of a debate. I have not started anaylysis in the least all i was trying to do was to bring peoples attention to the past.

Bastage:


There is no Islamic civilisation. Perhaps there was in the past but it doesn't exist now.

This is an oxymoron, there is none and then perhaps there was. In the field of history the islamic civilisation is acknowledged.

To butress my point of earlier posters lets frst define civilisation and then we could proceed.

According to princeton dictionary

civilization: the social process whereby societies achieve an advanced stage of development and organization .
Now how can any intellectual say there is no islamic civilisation.

You could hate islam which is fair but denying the obvious is crime to intelleculism.

Now we could go on to analyse islamic civilisation vis a vis modern times.

Bastage:

The claim that Islam birthed much of science is a fallacy - it merely helped to encourage a climate where scientists could work. But is it doing that now??!!! Emphatically no!!! Islam forces women away at schools, insists that teaching has to be compatible with dogma and in Pakistan alone is responsible for the destruction of thousands of schools. Get real!!! Living on so-called past victories whilst the Islam of today is slowly destroying them is hypocritical, ignorant and just plain false.

Burble on all you like about "great Islamic civilisation" but show me one instance where it survives today. Statements like "it was responsible for creating this or that 600 years ago" are not only misleading but totally irrelevant to the times we live in today.

Could you show me an islamic reference or justification for the statement in bold. This is categorically wrong. The extreme teachings of some of the taliban regarding schools has noplace in islam. I have said countless times edcation of women is mandatory in islam and u educate a woman u educate a nation. I urge u to please take that word back "islam forces women out of school" you could put taliban and i care less. Saudi arabia for example has several universities for women, Many of the gulf countries do and in Iran 65% of undergraduates are women so what are we saying here.

Aisha RA was a scholar and transmiteed thousands of hadith, there have been may women scholars in islam, women hold significant place in islam and the cultures of some people should not be the basis to judge islam. In african traditions women never used to have any right and were sex tool for men, in europe women were second class citizens and could not vote, opression of women has forever been with humanity and it is not islam that started it not does islam condone it. This has been the culture of many races since time immemorial lets be objective please.

Islamic civilastion had a resurgence around the 40's and particulalrly in the 70's there was a re awakeining of the islamic identity which is why there is a struggle today. Lets focus this debate on islamic civilisation vs western civilisation in this century and we could move the debate foward.

This is an oxymoron, there is none and then perhaps there was. In the field of history the islamic civilisation is acknowledged.
civilization: the social process whereby societies achieve an advanced stage of development and organization .
Now how can any intellectual say there is no islamic civilisation.

It's no oxymoron. The only slowpoke around here is you.
Tell me where this great civilisation exists. Let me phrase the question so that you understand it and there can be no mistake:

"Where in the world is there a great Islamic civilisation?"

Now how can any intellectual say there is no islamic civilisation.

Only a fool would suggest that an Islamic civilisation exists.

Could you show me an islamic reference or justification for the statement in bold. This is categorically wrong. The extreme teachings of some of the taliban regarding schools has noplace in islam

It has no place in Islam? it's down to the "extremist excuse" again. Sorry pal, that just won't wash. The Pakistan state, an Islamic government ceded a vast swathe of territory to the Taleban. Are you telling me that they didn't know that the Taleban was going to close schools?

. I urge u to please take that word back "islam forces women out of school" you could put taliban and i care less.

Not a chance. Are you saying that the Pakistan government is not Islamic? They're as guilty as the Taleban for the destruction of those schools.

Saudi arabia for example has several universities for women, Many of the gulf countries do and in Iran 65% of undergraduates are women so what are we saying here.

Do you know why Iran has such a large proportion of women graduates? It's because men don't have the chance to go to university - they are swallowed up by the Iranian army and the state before they get the chance to get that education. If there are no men going to university of course the figure for women is going to be higher you dolt.

Aisha RA was a scholar and transmiteed thousands of hadith, there have been may women scholars in islam, women hold significant place in islam and the cultures of some people should not be the basis to judge islam

Oh yeah. Pray do tell - where are these women now? Again you hark back to ancient history to give your ridiculous argument some sort of cretinous foundation.

This has been the culture of many races since time immemorial lets be objective please.

Other cultures did it in the past so that justifies it? They don't do it now. Islam does. Raped your wife lately? I forget. You can't. A Muslim can't rape his wife even if he forces himself on her. She'll get a good beating though won't she? I suppose that's not in the Q'ran or that it's non-Islamic too isn't it?

Islamic civilastion had a resurgence around the 40's and particulalrly in the 70's

Simple question - Where?

Lets focus this debate on islamic civilisation vs western civilisation in this century and we could move the debate foward.

LMAO!!! What Islamic civilisation of this century!!! The only one you seem to be able to use in your argument is the one which existed hundreds of years ago!!!

What is the point in debating with someone who ends all his sentences with insults. . .  slowpoke ,  dolt and so on.

What is the point of debating with someone who says there was never an islamic civilisation?

What is the point of debating with someone who says only a fool will say islamic civilisation existed.

Perhaps he needs to see the meaning of civilisation again.

What is the point a debating with someone who says islam forces women out of school , then says the reason for iran having high women in the schools they were supposedly to be banned from is because men join the army . . . . . i just laugh.

what is the point in debating with someone who uses the actions of few people based on culture to reach a conclusion that 1.2 billion people practise the same  . . . .  this is just a crime to intellectualism i will always say. Apart from Afghanistan and thos border areas how many muslim countries have u heard their women not going to school or stopped from recieving education on a national scale.

Honesty and objectivity is a virtue.

There is really no point debating with you. If there is any othe person in the house who wants to have this honest debate based on mutual respect and free from insults then please your more than welcome.

Don't run and hide.

Answer the question:

"Where in the world is there a great Islamic civilisation?"

You do not understand the meaning of that word if you do you would not be asking such a question.

Dont be childish with your dont run and hide. I affirm my stance i aint debating with someone who cant treat others with respect. I have tried and excercised patience but i maintain my stance.

I understand the word perfectly.

Why won't you answer? If a great Islamic civilisation exists today it should be simple for you to reply with an example.

So I ask you again:

Where in the world is there a great Islamic civilisation?

gombo_s:

Last two centuries, the Western ideas have started spreading through out the world, while the Islamic civilization have shrunk slowly. But today, it seems the old civilization (Islam) is comming back while the westerners start to doubt about it. do you think these two great civilizations can coexist side by side ? if yes, what kind of measures should the peace lovers take?

First, there has been Islamic civilization right from first century of Islamic era which actually has impact on the developed world today. However, to my believe, civilaization is not just a thing you can own forever. It merely could be acquired/steal by someone else and developed upon. Islamic civilization has almost die completely today in many present Islamic nations coz the muslims have left the scope and modality it requires. The bases was actually nothing but knowledge, which not only limited to the religious rituals but also a structure that encompasses every aspect of human life including  law, politics, arts, science etc. For once they left the legend of educating the youngs and seeking for knowledge given the chance for enemy to overcome them and put them in pandemonium, so started the dying civilization. Now, the life of the present muslims leaving under the present western ideololgies have been so mortgaged to the extent that most could not even retraced what belong to them and not.

The ingredients of the so called western ideologies and or civilzation has nothing new other than the acquired civilization from the old ones. The  intrinsic analysis of the western thinkers has no religious concern otherwise only focuses on materialism and improving thier economy through killing of any religious and non religious barrier. Believe me, Islamic ideologies and western one could not be unitarised coz the two are equal and opposite, taking banking sector has an example. Islam has its own banking rules rightly defined from Quran and Hadith which is formalized under Sharia Law and in opposite to that of western thinkers.

It is a simple formula

Western Civilization = Satan Civilization
Islamic Civilization = Faithful Civilization

You will know when your sisters and daughters started fasting with Muslims "Ramadan Diet"

Some people are misinterpreting "violent and forced colonisation" with "civilization".

The French colonised VAST parts of Africa . . . we dont talk of the great french civilization do we?

The Iberian peninsula was an Islamic Civilization.

auwal87:

It is a simple formula

Western Civilization = Satan Civilization
Islamic Civilization = Faithful Civilization

You will know when your sisters and daughters started fasting with Muslims "Ramadan Diet"

retarded formula

bawomolo:

The Iberian peninsula was an Islamic Civilization.

No, it was a muslim colonization of an already existing culture - Spanish.

Would you consider Nigeria a British civilization?

davidylan:

No, it was a muslim colonization of an already existing culture - Spanish.

Would you consider Nigeria a British civilization?

civilizations usually supplant other civilizations. Places like Granada were dramatically transformed. I don't think we are being fair to Islamic history here. The Iberian peninsula was pretty advanced compared to their neighbors in france etc.

bawomolo:

civilizations usually supplant other civilizations. Places like Granada were dramatically transformed. I don't think we are being fair to Islamic history here. The Iberian peninsula was pretty advanced compared to their neighbors in france etc.

and this was due to islam or inspite of it? Was it islam that developed the Iberian peninsula? Wow that would be a slight to the Spanish who conquered most of latin America.

davidylan:

and this was due to islam or inspite of it? Was it islam that developed the Iberian peninsula? Wow that would be a slight to the Spanish who conquered most of latin America.

Yes Muslims from North Africa did bring their technology and architecture to the Iberian peninsula. Their contribution to literacy, the printing press and many other things is undeniable.

bawomolo:

Yes Muslims from North Africa did bring their technology and architecture to the Iberian peninsula. Their contribution to literacy, the printing press and many other things is undeniable.

that is false. You've been reading too many skewed lies . . . so the Spanish were so illiterate they waited for the muslims to introduce literacy to them? Puhlease!

davidylan:

that is false. You've been reading too many skewed lies . . . so the Spanish were so illiterate they waited for the muslims to introduce literacy to them? Puhlease!

you can deny it all you want. But there is a reason it took centuries to conquer the Moors. They were advanced.

bawomolo:

you can deny it all you want. But there is a reason it took centuries to conquer the Moors. They were advanced.

again no proof, just baseless claims.

[center]Stanley Lane-Poole in ‘The Moors in Spain’: Introduction. [/center]

For nearly eight centuries, under the Mohamedan rule, Spain set all Europe a shining example of a civilized and enlightened state. Her fertile provinces rendered doubly prolific, by the industrious engineering skill of the conquerors bore fruit a hundredfold, cities innumerable sprang up in the rich valleys in the Guadalquivir and the Guadiana whose names, and names only commemorate the vanished glories of their past.

", To Cordoba belong all the beauty and ornaments that delight the eye or dazzle the sight. Her long line of Sultans form her crown of glory; her necklace is strung with the pearls which her poets have gathered from the ocean of language; her dress is of the banners of learning, well-knit together by her men of science; and the masters of every art and industry are the hem of her garments.

"Art, literature and science prospered as they then prospered nowhere else in Europe,

"Mathematics, astronomy, botany, history, philosophy and jurisprudence were to be mastered in Spain, and Spain alone. Whatever makes a kingdom great and prosperous, whatever tends to refinement and civilization, was found in Muslim Spain,

"With Granada fell all Spain's greatness. For a brief while, indeed, the reflection of the Moorish splendour cast a borrowed light upon the history of the land which it had once warmed with its sunny radiance. The great epoch of Isabella, Charles V and Philip II, of Columbus, Cortes and Pizarro, shed a last halo about the dying monuments of a mighty state. When followed the abomination of dissolution, the rule of inquisition and the blackness of darkness in which Spain has been plunged ever since.

"In the land where science was once supreme, the Spanish doctors became noted for nothing but their ignorance and incapacity. The arts of Toledo and Almeria faded into insignificance.

"The land deprived of skillful irrigation of the Moors, grew improvished and neglected, the richest and most fertile valleys languished and were deserted, and most of the populous cities which had filled every district in Andalusia, fell into ruinous decay; and beggars, friars, and bandits took the place of scholars, merchants and knights. So low fell Spain when she had driven away the Moors. Such is the melancholy contrast offered by her history."



dawodu - you might want to read this.

[url=http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm[/i]]http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm[/url]

bawomolo:

[center]Stanley Lane-Poole in ‘The Moors in Spain’: Introduction. [/center]

For nearly eight centuries, under the Mohamedan rule, Spain set all Europe a shining example of a civilized and enlightened state. Her fertile provinces rendered doubly prolific, by the industrious engineering skill of the conquerors bore fruit a hundredfold, cities innumerable sprang up in the rich valleys in the Guadalquivir and the Guadiana whose names, and names only commemorate the vanished glories of their past.

", To Cordoba belong all the beauty and ornaments that delight the eye or dazzle the sight. Her long line of Sultans form her crown of glory; her necklace is strung with the pearls which her poets have gathered from the ocean of language; her dress is of the banners of learning, well-knit together by her men of science; and the masters of every art and industry are the hem of her garments.

"Art, literature and science prospered as they then prospered nowhere else in Europe,

"Mathematics, astronomy, botany, history, philosophy and jurisprudence were to be mastered in Spain, and Spain alone. Whatever makes a kingdom great and prosperous, whatever tends to refinement and civilization, was found in Muslim Spain,

"With Granada fell all Spain's greatness. For a brief while, indeed, the reflection of the Moorish splendour cast a borrowed light upon the history of the land which it had once warmed with its sunny radiance. The great epoch of Isabella, Charles V and Philip II, of Columbus, Cortes and Pizarro, shed a last halo about the dying monuments of a mighty state. When followed the abomination of dissolution, the rule of inquisition and the blackness of darkness in which Spain has been plunged ever since.

"In the land where science was once supreme, the Spanish doctors became noted for nothing but their ignorance and incapacity. The arts of Toledo and Almeria faded into insignificance.

"The land deprived of skillful irrigation of the Moors, grew improvished and neglected, the richest and most fertile valleys languished and were deserted, and most of the populous cities which had filled every district in Andalusia, fell into ruinous decay; and beggars, friars, and bandits took the place of scholars, merchants and knights. So low fell Spain when she had driven away the Moors. Such is the melancholy contrast offered by her history."



dawodu - you might want to read this.

[url=http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm[/i]]http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm[/url]

Thanks for unbiased contribution.

@bawamolo.

The passage you've posted talks crap.

Spain didn't sink into ignomy. In fact, after it kicked out the Muslims it became one of the greatest empires on the planet. That crap has simply been written by some idiot Muslim sympathiser (which was basically what Lane-Poole was).
Statements like "Spain set all Europe a shining example of a civilized and enlightened state" are just peurile dross.
One should bear in mind that it was also written over a hundred years ago. At that time, the West was engaged in a fascination with Islam and the East that had never been seen before and has never been seen since. Everything Islamic was in and Islam could do no wrong (probably because in those days any terrorist was summararily executed and they didn't have to put up with the shit that we do nowadays). Anything Egyptian was loooked upon in the same way and in fact, Lane-Poole also wrote books on that subject too.

Even so, the Moors in Spain was how many hundreds of years ago? What relevance does that passage have now?
How does Christian Spain fare against Islamic countries now? Which one is the civilisation?

He wasn't the author of the passage. I think the author's views was basically a reflection from history. There are various authors perceptions regarding the history and muslims lived in cordoba,spain,indonesia,india,philipines,sudan e.t.c. In all, we know how muslims had fell when they started pursuing pleasurable things, however abandoned knowledge and Islamic propagation.

Bastage:

@bawamolo.

The passage you've posted talks crap.

Spain didn't sink into ignomy. In fact, after it kicked out the Muslims it became one of the greatest empires on the planet. That crap has simply been written by some idiot Muslim sympathiser (which was basically what Lane-Poole was).
Statements like "Spain set all Europe a shining example of a civilized and enlightened state" are just peurile dross.
One should bear in mind that it was also written over a hundred years ago. At that time, the West was engaged in a fascination with Islam and the East that had never been seen before and has never been seen since. Everything Islamic was in and Islam could do no wrong (probably because in those days any terrorist was summararily executed and they didn't have to put up with the shit that we do nowadays). Anything Egyptian was loooked upon in the same way and in fact, Lane-Poole also wrote books on that subject too.

Even so, the Moors in Spain was how many hundreds of years ago? What relevance does that passage have now?
How does Christian Spain fare against Islamic countries now? Which one is the civilisation?

it may be a bit biased but the impact the moors left was undeniable. Would you deny there were learning centers in Iraq.

Who built the University in Timbuktu? MUSLIMS

This isn't to say Islam is a religion of bliss but muslims did have a contribution to society.

This isn't to say Islam is a religion of bliss but muslims did have a contribution to society.

DID!!!!

I'd dispute that it had as much impact or was as wonderful as some state it was but that's irrelevant. The question here is where is Islamic civilisation now?

Leaving an imprint on a civilisation or culture is not the same as being a civilisation. The title of this thread is "The West Civilisation V. The Islamic Civilisation".

I ask again - What Islamic Civilisation? Where is it?