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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism (7884 Views)
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Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by vooks: 2:36pm On Oct 31, 2015 |
WinsomeX:The lengthy diatribe is unnecessary You had a simple job; withdraw the claim you are regurgitating here that 1 Corinthians 14:2 is referring to a pagan experience complete with a pagan deity. Why withdraw? Because it is baseless and a figment of some fertile imagination, and necessarily blasphemous Existence of pagan tongues in first century is no proof. Cessationism has extremely WEAK or non-existent exegetical basis. This is its achille's heel. Seeing no scripture supports them, they must resort to theological gymnastics we are seeing and invoke every imaginable EXTRA-BIBLICAL argument. |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by vooks: 2:40pm On Oct 31, 2015 |
WinsomeX: Winsomex, Unfortunately this is your own rule. And am surprised you would invoke it seeing you have derived unknown tongue vs tongues distinction WITHOUT a single verse to support your Eisegesis. This broda can't keep his own rules,and he expects us to observe them failure to which we are labeled as peddlers of false doctrine A simple question I leave you with is, what is 1 Corinthians 14:4 saying? Once you gain enough courage to answer that, please tell me what scripture 14:4 contradicts or appears to contradict. Cc Gombs 1 Like |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by ABDULADINO(m): 4:40pm On Oct 31, 2015 |
Winsomex, Jude 1:20 supports self edification. |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by WinsomeX: 6:11pm On Oct 31, 2015 |
ABDULADINO: Thank you Abdul. I could easily have consented with you, only that I'm certain that only Pentecostals regard "praying in the Holy Ghost" as stated in Jude 20 as speaking in tongues. The wider spectrum of evangelical Christianity regard such praying as normal, sincere, honest and fervent prayers to God - in understandable language. When Jesus spoke to the woman at the well, he told her of those who will worship God in spirit and in truth. Prayers, a sought of worship, will be in the spirit when it is said in truth. If there are any people NOT praying in truth and therefore not praying in the spirit, it is Pentecostals. I remember hours of meaningless "kabashing" working up the flesh saying we are praying in tongues. The mere fact that you don't know what you're saying is tantamount to not praying in truth and thus not praying in the spirit. Jude 20 is very debatable as to whether or not it is praying in tongues. I would like to see a credible bible commentary render this tongues. What I see many regard it is simple intelligible praying. 1 Like |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by vooks: 6:26pm On Oct 31, 2015 |
WinsomeX: Am dying to see ANY commentary that thinks 1 Cor 14:4 has nothing to do with edification or one that thinks personal edification here is a false doctrine because they can't find ANOTHER scripture on tongues edifying privately. 1 Like |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by vooks: 7:13pm On Oct 31, 2015 |
Winsomex, I trust you are not like many Believers who identify themselves with Reformed camp and have NEVER read any of the Reformers' works. Calvin erred in one too many ways but I believe you need to acquaint yourself with his commentary on 1 Corinthians especially on the spiritual gifts. I have dug up a copy and am sharing it hoping you will go through it. Calvin is no arbiter on matters doctrine but it is a shame when I look at the depths his kids have strayed from him for reasons known better to themselves http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom39.pdf |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by WinsomeX: 7:38pm On Oct 31, 2015 |
^^^ I can't seem to open it at the moment. I'll try later. But Calvin certainly taught tongues. |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by Goshen360(m): 3:36am On Nov 01, 2015 |
I'll re - read, digest and comment later when I'm free. This tongue matter ehnn...no be small thing o. |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by vooks: 4:10am On Nov 01, 2015 |
WinsomeX: Am sorry for that my broda. I just clicked on it and it opened. Check your connection or something. Calvin was somewhat a flip flop on spiritual gifts but we can say he did lay the foundation for Cessationism There had been cessationists since the days of the Church Councils. But as a well-defined viewpoint, modern cessationism starts with John Calvin. Back in the days of the Reformation, the Vatican had sent Robert Bellarmine to win back the people who had joined the Reformed churches. One of Bellarmine's main methods was to point to wondrous signs done by loyal Catholics, and then ask, 'Where's your miracles? How is God working through you?' For a while, at least, Bellarmine was quite effective. Calvin knew he had to respond to that specific challenge. Calvin replied :http://www.spirithome.com/cessationism.html But am not sharing the commentary to show you this but rather you may observe the fatal flaws these post-modern anti-Pentecostals are making in 'combating' Pentecostalism. Read his commentary on 1 Cor 12-14 and then we can exchange notes |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by An2elect2(f): 8:09am On Nov 01, 2015 |
WinsomeX i tend to agree with you but on this one, am amazed. Your understanding of unknown tongues does not tally with the bible's. Pagan gibberish? ah! And i wonder where in the bible was it said that speaking in tongues, the gift of prophecy and healing would cease with the apostles! I don't understand Christians who say they are cessationists. Wondering if they ever coveted any spiritual gift before concluding God no longer edifies His church with them. 1 Like |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by WinsomeX: 7:21pm On Nov 01, 2015 |
An2elect2: I've written all I know all tongues being pagan gibberish. It is sufficient info for whoever wishes to investigate further. Let God grant us all further understanding. An2elect2: I've written a great deal on Cessationism. This thread is not discussing that now. See my thread on John Macarthur's Strange Fire or this link www.cessationism.com for more understanding. |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by MuttleyLaff: 9:45pm On Nov 01, 2015 |
The work of the Holy Spirit has been so totally misrepresented. There are essentially three forces in Christianity. This is called the third force: Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Pentecostalism. And we have said much through the years, the church has, about the errors of Roman Catholicism. We have said a whole lot less about the errors of Pentecostalism because they threaten us with accusations of being divisive, and that causes some people to be silent. I’m not defending the truth for the sake of my own church or the sake of my own opinion. I’m eager to defend the truth for the sake of the Holy Spirit, not that He needs me as a defender, but He needs me to not grieve Him and not quench Him and not insult Him and certainly to recognize what dishonors Him. I feel like the psalmist who said, ''The reproaches that fall on you have fallen on me'' When the Holy Spirit is dishonored, I feel the pain, and it seems to be a very popular sport to do that. This is one of the most abused texts in the New Testament by the Charismatics. I always expect my Bible to bleed here because it’s been wounded so many times. They want us to believe that this is an advocacy for – advocacy text for speaking in tongues, this “groanings too deep for words.” They want us to believe that what this verse is saying is that when you don’t know how to pray in words that you do understand, launch off into glossolalia in words that you don’t understand and this is the Holy Spirit doing what you can’t do. That is not what this verse means, as you will see in a moment. It’s utterly foreign to the reality of the meaning of this text to impose that on it. - culled from Groanings Too Deep for Words by John MacArthur @Ubenedictus @Squad4 @sportsmaster, @ABDULADINO, @gombs, @An2elect2, @Goshen360 WinsomeX is 110% correct in saying that gibberish is what is espoused as talking in a different language among modern day believers By the way, though old habit are difficult to die, its close to 11 years now that I've managed to curtail doing this gibberish or nonsense and I deliberately said, managed, because it sometimes wants to subconsciously rear its ugly head and slip back in Mind you, I do groaning in the spirit (i.e. that's where & when applicable) but dont anymore do gibberish - aside the different kinds of groaning out of pain, out of despair, out of pleasure etcetera, there is a distinction (i.e. particularly in regards to when praying) between groaning in the spirit and talking gibberish Jesus groaned in the spirit (i.e. John 11:33 and John 11:38) but it wasnt the sort of gibberish thing we have and see in modern believers settings or gatherings As said, I, too, when praying intensely do experience groaning in the spirit - it usually is making deep inarticulate sound(s) or grunts during praying, out of pain, anguish, desperation or some strong emotion Want to believe, its similar to, if not on par with that, Hannah style of praying (i.e. 1 Samuel 1:10) No one should allow anyone to label and box them. I dont suffer labelling gladly or lightly. If it were I, instead of accepting a label, I would've asked what, to the questioner's understanding, is a cessationist and what is cessationist all about, for anyone to be called such As from the little familiarity I know of WinsomeX, he shouldnt have easily succumbed to the veiled combative question namely because #1 he believes prophecy hasnt stopped, #2 believes healing hasnt stopped, and #3 believes speaking in different tongues hasnt stopped The above are in one shape or the other still very much around and are presented below as: #1 Prophecy - now in form of word of wisdom and/or the word of knowledge (i.e. 1 Corinthians 12:8') #2 Healing - gifts of healing and various kinds of tongues (i.e. 1 Corinthians 12:28) #3 Different tongue(s) - Apart from the gift of various kinds of tongues in 1 Corinthians 12:28, FLS, is another form of the gift of speaking in a different tongue, albeit some here, like our always on form vooks, might class it as tongue in cheek for referencing it here The thing is, a lot of the time, we read the Bible and take it at face value only, without bothering looking under the hood to find hidden meanings in passages such as 1 Corinthians 14 Also, the desire to understand the bigger picture or motive behind what the person (i.e. Paul) was actually saying in 1 Corinthians 14, is usually not there. In addition, the curiosity to know, what brought the saying about in 1 Corinthians 14, why the saying had to be said the manner/way it was said, the circumstances, the setting, background etcetera is most times absent. It is an unhidden fact, that with the exception of Ephesus, Paul stayed at Corinth longer than any other city in the NT times we know of. Ancient Corinth was a sailing port, hence a cosmopolitan city, where one expects to hear diverse languages spoke, see imported & different customs etcetera and so the believers at Corinth wouldnt be an exception to this as they too would have been exposed to varied external influences, habits etcetera of people from region different to their individual origins Paul, understandably, albeit without having to need two tablets, like Moses needed for his headaches with the Israelites, had his fair share of headaches with the church at Corinth than any other of his Bible recorded visiting place This obviously is due to the diversities in culture, languages, habits, practices etcetera from the wide range of congregating ''outsiders'' in Corinth I have to pause here but will asap continue from where I've temporaily stopped PS: By the way Jude 1:20 has nothing to do speaking in tongues but means what it says out of the tin (i.e. means literally pray in the Holy Spirit, as in like one of those ''thy will be done'' prayers) 1 Like |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by WinsomeX: 4:14am On Nov 02, 2015 |
^^^ I am tempted to ask Muttleylaff how long it took to write this; but I will not. Very well said. I'm looking fwd to the concluding part. |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by vooks: 5:08am On Nov 02, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: MacArthur So Pentecostalism is not Protestantism? Anyways, he can keep all the good tags and slogans for himself and MacArthurism He is so passionate in his war against continuationism that he will not hesitate to label them UNSAVED. To MacArthur either you are Reformed Calvinist or a heretic. That aside, there is this haughty spirit around the dude that he imagines to be the lone voice criticizing Pentecostalism. Books have been penned against the errors of Pentecostalism long before MacArthur penned any. The other thing to note about his criticism is it is ever so uneven. A Cessationist heretic gets a light pat in the back from MacArthur but not a Pentecostal and a good example is the Mar's Hill implosion. The cessationists simply looked the other way as they could not muster enough cojones to criticize or even rebuke their 'own' And now to a more important point or question for you. 1. What is your reading of the verse? Is 1 Cor 14:2 talking about paganism complete with a god in it? 2. Is there ANY merit in some arguments we read here that UNKNOWN tongue is different from tongues? And finally
What is 'different tongue(s)' and how does that differ from 'various kinds of tongues'? And what is FLS? |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by Gombs(m): 7:14am On Nov 02, 2015 |
vooks: Ah... I'm back. I have an off day today. You see the rules my friend create? They give me some laugh. Let me read on. I've missed much |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by Gombs(m): 7:16am On Nov 02, 2015 |
vooks: Me too... |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by Gombs(m): 7:56am On Nov 02, 2015 |
Having read this much, I must say I'm intrigued at this thread. I love the way each one presented matters, devoid of personal tantrums. This is some good start. I'd like to say a thing or two, and I Hope we get some flavor from it. I've always being in the WoF, I've followed Kenyon, Hagin, Idahosa, and now Oyakhilome. I've studied these folks, and what they taught, and I believe them wholly. There are times I rejected what they taught, for example, there are times Hagin contradicted Oyakhilome, at a point, I had to contact joagbaje for counsel. However... This is about tongues, and clearly, they all agree on same, so, I'd write on my thoughts, after some study and experiences. The issue of tongues in the church is a really interesting one, because all Christians ought to speak in tongues. However, due to certain teachings, and religious battery of scriptures,we are where we are today, and God will surely fix His Church. In the Church world today, many people say, “Tongues have been done away with, because the Bible says that tongues will cease.” The Bible does say that one day, tongues will cease (1 Corinthians 13:8–12), but that is not referring to this present Church Age. In Heaven, there will be no necessity for tongues, because that which is perfect will have come (1 Cor. 13:10). There are those who purport to believe in speaking in tongues but do not feel that tongues are necessary for all believers. It’s important to understand that there is a difference between the gift of tongues that accompanies the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which every believer can receive, and the gift of tongues that is a ministry gift. I hope this is understood... It's important. (For a more detailed teaching on this subject, please read, The Holy Spirit and His Gifts Study Guide - Kenneth Hagin) I will be talking about the gift of tongues given for every believer. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is for all those who believe (Acts 2:38–39); therefore, speaking in tongues as an evidence of the Spirit’s infilling is also for all those who believe. This cannot be swept under the carpet. If you're born again, you're qualified for the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and speaking in tongues is an evidence of the infilling of the Spirit. No wonder Jesus said "they shall speak with new tongues" Mark 16:17b Many have been robbed of the blessings God intended them to have by believing that speaking in tongues isn’t for everyone. But the Word shows us that every believer needs to be filled with the Holy Ghost. And the Word says that when we get filled with the Holy Ghost, we will speak with tongues (Acts 2:4). However, speaking with tongues does not occur as just one initial experience of being filled with the Holy Ghost, and then it ceases. Speaking with tongues is a continual experience for the rest of one’s life. Notice that in writing to the Church at Corinth, Paul very definitely encouraged the Corinthian Christians to follow the practice of speaking with tongues in their own private prayer lives. And he gave a number of reasons for it. ...to be continued 1 Like |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by vooks: 9:45am On Nov 02, 2015 |
Gombs: Common Cessationist arguments; 1. 1 Cor 14:4 is the ONLY verse that associates edification from uninterpreted tongues THEREFORE it is unreliable source of doctrine/belief as doctrines are strewn across epistles and verses 2. Paul ONLY dwelt at length on spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians and nowhere else. Therefore, spiritual gifts are non-essential else they could have graced several epistles and perhaps attracted a sermonette by Jesus Christ. You know my broda how we have differed on so many points but am certain you can agree with me that hear are wild arguments from silence. On #1, an honest truth seeker would endeavor to find what the verse means. John Calvin a man from hundreds of years ago figured it; Paul sought to strike a balance between ABUSE and disUSE of spiritual gifts. He will lambast the Corinthians for ABUSE but he extols the merits of the gifts at the same time lest Corinthians turn skeptics like Cessationist. Uninterpreted tongues have benefits but their full value is in interpretation at which point they equal prophecy the highest of all gifts. On point #2, why would Paul dedicate THREE chapters dwelling on a trivial subject? Cessationism is a form of skepticism. You have believers who think virgin birth is a myth but they accept he rest of Christian tenets. A Cessationist probably thinks that it is possible to doubt spiritual gifts and remain a Christian, they are essentially pushing the limits of who a Christian is. I have never seen some gifts in operation and I don't need to see them to believe Holy Spirit gives them out. I have also seen some gifts abused and faked but the fakery need not cloud some simple truth that Holy Spirit still authors genuine gifts. My attitude is simply believing before seeing, just like I believe in Jesus and resurrection without witnessing any. When you think about it, skepticism is he opposite of faith 1 Like |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by vooks: 10:40am On Nov 02, 2015 |
Gombs:You make some points which should be examined in their own like, 1. all believers ought to speak in tongues 2. There is a difference between 'gift of tongues accompanying baptism of Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues as a ministry gift. One thing about spiritual gifts is hat they are not fully defined , and this leaves room for all sorts of creativity and guesswork. For instance, what is Knowledge? What is Wisdom? Hagin made an excellent observation that while possessing a spiritual gift necessarily entails manifesting it, manifesting one does not mean you possess it. He went on and gave examples of prophecy. Holy Spirit may impress onto your spirit a prophetic word for a particular moment but you don't become a prophet. Or healing. Praying for a sick person and God healing them does not mean you have the gift. And so forth Where he erred greatly is arbitrary inventing 'offices' of a particular gift. It is good for the mind but has zero scriptural basis. This is a shining example of the creativity I have just mentioned. To the best of my understanding and I stand corrected, tongues are supernatural ability to speak an unlearned language. And there are no types of tongues or offices or ministry. And the gift is not is not for all believers. All spiritual gifts are beneficial for all but not all walk in all and most certainly not all walk in ANY. And this is not any mistake on their side. Paul was quite particular that the unintelligible has no place in public worship whether it be prayer,song,exhortation. It is discourteous plain and simple. Many Pentecostals have grown into a culture of impunity where this is routinely flouted, and they find censuring it too much seeing they are equally guilty. They resort to theological gymnastics and aberrations such as inventing types of tongues. Cessationists observing this flagrant breach of these clear regulations rightly accuse Pentecostals of anarchy. The half baked dishonest retorts of 'types' of tongues among others don't help at all. So we have the epic clash of Cessationists baseless claims and Pentecostals impunity and thousands of books and arguments in between 2 Likes |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by Gombs(m): 1:04pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
vooks: One thing about spiritual gifts is hat they are not fully defined , and this leaves room for all sorts of creativity and guesswork. For instance, what is Knowledge? What is Wisdom? Well, they can be understood fully, if they're looked into with scriptures. Hagin made an excellent observation that while possessing a spiritual gift necessarily entails manifesting it, manifesting one does not mean you possess it. Very correct. He went on and gave examples of prophecy. Holy Spirit may impress onto your spirit a prophetic word for a particular moment but you don't become a prophet. Or healing. Praying for a sick person and God healing them does not mean you have the gift. And so forth You're getting it right. Hagin was so on point there. Did you read the book? Where he erred greatly is arbitrary inventing 'offices' of a particular gift. It is good for the mind but has zero scriptural basis. This is a shining example of the creativity I have just mentioned. Really!? How exactly? To the best of my understanding and I stand corrected, tongues are supernatural ability to speak an unlearned language. By, "Unlearned", you mean? Keep this verse in perspective.. Acts 2:4 4 And they were all filled with the[b] Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.[/b] And there are no types of tongues Wrong buddy! There are 1 Corinthians 13 1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, or offices or ministry. Wrong again. There are... Ephesians 4:10 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Those are ministry gifts. Paul said Jesus gave them as gifts to the church. And the gift is not is not for all believers. Spiritual gifts are given by impartation (ask for proof), and yeah.. It is for all believers, Paul asked us to desire spiritual gifts. Ministry gifts on the other hand is a calling, not imparted. All spiritual gifts are beneficial for all but not all walk in all and most certainly not all walk in ANY. And this is not any mistake on their side. Paul was quite particular that the unintelligible has no place in public worship whether it be prayer,song,exhortation. It is discourteous plain and simple. Many Pentecostals have grown into a culture of impunity where this is routinely flouted, and they find censuring it too much seeing they are equally guilty. Ummm... I lost you a while ago. Mind rephrasing. They resort to theological gymnastics and aberrations such as inventing types of tongues. Quit flipping buddy! Cessationists observing this flagrant breach of these clear regulations rightly accuse Pentecostals of anarchy. I'd have to let this humor me. The half baked dishonest retorts of 'types' of tongues among others don't help at all. But there are. So we have the epic clash of Cessationists baseless claims and Pentecostals impunity and thousands of books and arguments in between |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by vooks: 1:44pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
Gombs:There are no scripture on Knowledge or Wisdom. But there is plenty of presumption and speculation Did Really!? How exactly?Because there is nothing such as office of tongues and tongues, there is just tongues. By, "Unlearned", you mean? Keep this verse in perspective.. By unlearned I mean a language you have never learned before so you can't communicate in it of your own. For instance, if you have never learnt Mandarin and suddenly you prayed in Mandarin. Unlearned is not in a derogatory sense as in illiterate and ignorant. Wrong buddy! There areI mean the gift of tongues is ONE and the same, you don't have office of tongues, ministry of tongues and then the gift of tongues; all you have are tongues Wrong again. There are...There is no ministry or office called tongues nor administration or discernment yet these are spiritual gifts. Catch my drift? Is this verse EXHAUSTIVE of ministries/ callings? It’s important to understand that there is a difference between the gift of tongues that accompanies the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which every believer can receive, and the gift of tongues that is a ministry gift.It is IMPORTANT to understand that you just imagine this. But it is not exactly imagining but regurgitating Hagin WITHOUT a shred of evidence from the scriptures Why is this 'gift of tongues as ministry gift conspicuously missing from the Ephesians list? Spiritual gifts are given by impartation (ask for proof), and yeah.. It is for all believers, Paul asked us to desire spiritual gifts. Ministry gifts on the other hand is a calling, not imparted.You just cooked another vocabulary. All gifts are from Holy Spirit. Simple biblical truth free of men craftiness. Paul exhorts us to pursue higher gift of prophecy one he had just indicated to be a gift. Seems like you need to teach him a thing or two about impartation vs calling.
Is tongues a MINISTRY/OFFICE? If you don't understand, read it slowly
Once again, tongues are tongues. You don't have ministry/office you just have tongues and Paul is clear that NOT ALL speak in tongues at Corinth 1 Like |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by Goshen360(m): 2:05pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
I have read few comments but still reading. I think vooks has the best scriptural approach\truth to this subject with a little twist to what Gombs is saying. The scripture is plain and simple! |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by Gombs(m): 2:23pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
[quote author=vooks post=39609262] There are no scripture on Knowledge or Wisdom. But there is plenty of presumption and speculation There are... Study the Greek words of the two, in regards the context it's taken from. Because there is nothing such as office of tongues and tongues, there is just tongues. Office of tongues? Did I say there was?
But mandarin is tongues of men... It contradicts the very thing you're trying to cook up. I mean the gift of tongues is ONE and the same, you don't have office of tongues, ministry of tongues and then the gift of tongues; all you have are tongues Ok... So, the tongues of men is same as that of angels? Is this verse EXHAUSTIVE of ministries/ callings? Yup It is IMPORTANT to understand that you just imagine this. But it is not exactly imagining but regurgitating Hagin WITHOUT a shred of evidence from the scriptures I was not done... Stop being edgy. Why is this 'gift of tongues as ministry gift conspicuously missing from the Ephesians list? Slow it down Old sport! By Gift of tongues as a ministry Gift, as I saw it, is the utterances those called to those offices utter, by the Spirit. I wasn't trying to say there's an office of tongues. Jeeez You just cooked another vocabulary. All gifts are from Holy Spirit. Simple biblical truth free of men craftiness. Paul exhorts us to pursue higher gift of prophecy one he had just indicated to be a gift. Seems like you need to teach him a thing or two about impartation vs calling. Some are by impartation...others are by calling... Ask for proof. Is tongues a MINISTRY/OFFICE? It's a gift. Paul is clear that NOT ALL speak in tongues at Corinth That's why he took time to teach them. Wait for my continuation. Cheers |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by vooks: 2:39pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
Gombs:When done just say so. The Corinthians were ALREADY operating in all of the gifts. It is abuse Paul dealt with and not novelty of he same. So their not ALL operating in ALL the gifts is not a sign of ignorance but a fact of life. He never stopped at tongues, he listed ALL the gifts. Paul was not writing to them so they may operate in all but that they may exercise them wisely and maturely. Slow it down Old sport! By Gift of tongues as a ministry Gift, as I saw it, is the utterances those called to those offices utter, by the Spirit. I wasn't trying to say there's an office of tongues.Too proud to admit goofing. So a spiritual gift exercised by anyone called to 'those offices' become a 'ministry gift' different from the average Joe, the 'uncalled'? Question is HOW are the utterances by the Spirit 'those called to those offices utter' different from the utterance by the Spirit manifesting vide an uncalled dude like you? 1 Like |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by Gombs(m): 2:48pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
Too proud to admit goofing. Whatever sails yout boat, son, is fine with me! So a spiritual gift exercised by anyone called to 'those offices' become a 'ministry gift' different from the average Joe, the 'uncalled'? If I prophesy now, does it mean I'm called into the office of a prophet? Don't try to twist my point... I can see you're doing a shoddy job at it. Meanwhile, you didn't answer my question... So, the tongues of men is same as that of angels? Since you said the gifts of tongues are One and the same. Question is HOW are those utterances by the Spirit 'those called utter' different from the utterance by the Spirit manifesting vide an uncalled dude like you? Wait for my continuation son! 1 Like |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by WinsomeX: 2:56pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
Gombs, response to your 7:56am post. I will respond to others as the need arise: Before you proceed, let me offer some explanations to some questions you asked and also ask my questions: 1. MacArthur distinguishing Christianity into Catholicism, Protestantism and Pentecostalism is his own unique way. There is no law that says everyone must see it that way. However, there is wisdom in it bc church history has had these three groups dominating Christendom respectively. Also, the core tenets of many mainline Protestants differ significantly from Pentecostals, that to call Pentecostals Protestant in the strict of the word is to abuse the term. 2. I will need you to point out to me where MacArthur said that Pentecostals or Continutionist were not saved. Please let's not start this discuss with false information. 3. I hesitated mentioning MacArthur on this thread bc little minds are won't to leave issues to attack the source. Please let's stay on issues here and leave Macarthur's person out. 4. Sorry, I think I missed the Mar's Hill implosion thing. What's that supposed to be? 5. You seem to be missing the point in my discussion. I'm not concerned with tongues as private prayer or whether or not tongues is compulsory for Christians to speak. I'm saying modern tongues is not the biblical tongues. That it is at best gibberish and at work pagan demonic ramble, and no one should be involved in it. You attempted to quote 1 Cor 13:8, which says: 1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. According to John MacArthur (permit I reference him again): According to verse 8, we know that all the gifts are going to cease sometime. They're all going to be rendered inoperative. But if you look at verse 8 a little closer, you'll discover some very important distinctions that the Apostle Paul and the Holy Spirit make between tongues, prophecy, and knowledge. The different Greek words that are used indicate that tongues will cease at a different point in time than prophecy and knowledge. This is a very important point. Let me show you why I say that. 1) The Different Words Used a) Katargeo At the beginning of verse 8 it says that prophecies "shall be done away." Other translations say "shall be rendered inoperative," or "abolished." At the end of verse 8 it says that knowledge "shall vanish away." Those two phrases describing the cessation of prophecy and knowledge, are the same Greek verb, katargeo, which means "to be made inoperative." This is not the verb, however, that is used in reference to the cessation of tongues. That's a totally different word: b) Pauo Now there is a purpose in the mind of the Holy Spirit for making a distinction with these two terms, and I want you to understand what it is. Knowledge and prophecy will be rendered inoperative, but tongues "will cease." This is indicated by the use of a different Greek verb--pauo--which means "to stop." So, the first distinction that is made in verse 8 is the use of two different Greek words to describe the cessation of prophecy and knowledge, and the cessation of tongues. The second distinction in verse 8 is... 2) The Different Voices Used a) Passive Voice The verb katargeo, in describing the cessation of prophecy and knowledge, is in the passive voice. The rule of grammar states that when a passive verb is in a sentence, the subject receives the action. So in the case of prophecy and knowledge, something will act upon them to cause them to stop. You say, "What is it that's going to do that?" Well, look at verses 9-10: "For we know in part [the gift of knowledge], and we prophesy in part [the gift of prophecy]. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away [Gk. katargeo]." So, what is it that's going to come and stop prophecy and knowledge? The "perfect thing." We'll identify what that is in a future lesson. Also notice that tongues do not appear in verse 9. Why? Because only prophecy and knowledge are stopped by the "perfect thing." The verb relative to tongues is not in the passive voice. It is in the ... b) Middle Voice The verb that says tongues will cease (pauo) is in the middle voice. Let me show you the differences in the active, passive, and middle voices. In the active voice we would say, "I hit the ball." In the passive voice we would say, "The ball hit me." And in the middle voice (if English had a middle voice) we would say, "I hit myself." In other words, the Greek middle voice is reflexive, indicating that the subject is acting upon itself. The middle voice also indicates intense action on the part of the subject. Literally, then, verse 8 says, "Tongues will stop by themselves." That's the meaning that the middle voice gives to the verb pauo. The Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) uses the middle form of pauo fifteen times to translate the Hebrew word which means "to complete," "to stop," "to finish," "to accomplish," "to end." It has a finality to it. And the reflexive middle voice gives it the idea that it ends all by itself. c. The Inevitable Deduction The gifts of prophecy and knowledge, then, are going to continue on until the "perfect thing" comes and stops them. The gift of tongues is going to stop all by itself. That's what has to be deduced when one looks at the Greek. 6. Lastly, you claim Paul taught that tongues might be used in private prayers. Can you refer me to that scripture, please? |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by vooks: 2:56pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
Gombs:You found this thread civil. Try and leave it that way. If I prophesy now, does it mean I'm called into the office of a prophet? Don't try to twist my point... I can see you're doing a shoddy job at it.I would say a single manifestation of a gift don't mean you are in that 'office'. Hagin long observed this. If you want to be understood, be coherent and more importantly back up your post with scriptures. Meanwhile, you didn't answer my question...A tongue of men or angel remains a tongue and there is no such artificial distinction imagined here; It’s important to understand that there is a difference between the gift of tongues that accompanies the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which every believer can receive, and the gift of tongues that is a ministry gift. Remain civil. 'Son' is demeaning but am least offended. Take your time, if you want a week to go get backup, get Joagbaje,Google, Hagin and all. Winsomex does not mind waiting Here, am only interested in the Word of Life and so far, you are very far from it 1 Like |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by Gombs(m): 3:21pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
Continued... Notice that in writing to the Church at Corinth, Paul very definitely encouraged the Corinthian Christians to follow the practice of speaking with tongues in their own private prayer lives. And he gave a number of reasons for it. 1. Devotional Use—Speaking Divine Secrets There is the devotional use of tongues. Sounds strange, but it's true, and totally biblical. 1 Corinthians 14:2 says, “For he who speaks in a ‘tongue’ addresses God, not man; no one understands him; he is talking of divine secrets in the Spirit” (Moffatt). Here, Paul is talking about the individual Spirit-filled believer employing the use of tongues in his prayer life. notice, it was talking about an individual praying in tongues. Through speaking in tongues, you can pray out the plan of God for your life by the power of the Holy Spirit. Why? How? Because he speaks to God, By then help of the Holy Spirit, who helps us pray as we ought to, making intercessions with groans that cannot be uttered. When I speak in tongues...My Spirit prays. 2. Spiritual Edification Tongues are also used as a means of spiritual edification. The Bible says, “He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifteth himself . . .” (1 Cor. 14:4). The word “edifieth” means to build up. You could see same in the book of Jude 20....it talks about building oneself... Praying in the Holy Ghost. Reading on in the same chapter, The Amplified Bible reads, “My spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive . . .” (1 Cor. 14:14). So praying in tongues is not for mental edification, but for spiritual edification. Simple and clear. 3.Worshipping God The Bible says in Acts 10:46 concerning Cornelius and his household when they began to speak with tongues, “For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. . . .” . Speaking with tongues is a supernatural way to magnify God. Oh! I know that experience! 4. Doorway to the Supernatural Speaking with tongues is the doorway into all the other spiritual gifts. I've not seen any who manifests the gifts of the Spirit, and doesn't speak in other tongues.... I'm yet to see any. Some people want to experience all the gifts of the Spirit at once, but you have to go through the door to get into the supernatural. This is why we have many failed churches. Churches who want to manifest the gifts they've read about,yet they still say tongues are done away with. If you do not speak in other tongues, there are depths in God and Christianity you'd never experience. Also, it is as the Spirit of God wills, not as we will (1 Cor. 12:11). In other words, you can’t force or “put on” a manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit. The Bible teaches us to desire spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 14:1), a point I tried getting vooks to understand...he rather said; Paul exhorts us to pursue higher gift of prophecy one he had just indicated to be a gift A ploy to water down the gifts of tongues. However, the Bible also teaches us to earnestly covet the best gifts (1 Cor. 12:31). Let's remember that those words were written to people who already spoke in tongues. They weren’t written to people who did not speak with tongues. Conclusion: God has given each of us a supernatural means of edifying ourselves, or building ourselves up, spiritually. God has given to us a supernatural means of communicating with and worshipping Him. As a Spirit-filled believer take full advantage of the gift of tongues. Cc: WinsomeX 6. Lastly, you claim Paul taught that tongues might be used in private prayers. Can you refer me to that scripture, please? Scripture,? It's dotted all over 1Corinthians 14... Try verse 4. Paul encouraged the practice of speaking in tongues in their own private prayer life. 1 Like |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by Gombs(m): 3:26pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
vooks: I don't need back up... I've always left a discussion with you when you go haywire and start throwing tantrums. So now, "son" is demeaning? Noted Bro! |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by waldigit: 3:48pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
Squad4: |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by waldigit: 3:49pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
Squad4: Bible interpretation is based on revelation of Holy Spirit. The presence of Holy Spirit and its revelational gift among others is manifest in the gift of diverse of tongues speaking and other gifts. First before you run your conclusion make sure you are solidly relying on revelation from Holy Spirit and not your ability to read and understand. Also I want to draw your attention to another aspect of speaking in tongues you may not appreciate. Tongues are controlled by Holy spirit, its a weapon of warfare just like in the conventional warfare were all radio communication are done in codes. Language are sometimes twisted by Holy Spirit to achieve a particular objective. e.g penticost feast multinational purpose. Holy Spirit can issue a command from the human vessel in form of tongue in a congregation to confuse the camp of enemies by passing across classified information to heavenly host you may not see. I can go on but let me allow the Holy Spirit to do the needful |
Re: Tongues: A Fundamental Flaw In Pentecostalism by vooks: 4:22pm On Nov 02, 2015 |
Gombs:I don't necessarily agree but I will let it pass Regardless of the use of tongues, if uninterpteted, they have no role whatsoever in public worship If you do not speak in other tongues, there are depths in God and Christianity you'd never experience.Another baseless cliche Given that not all speak in tongues, and the Spirit does not divide this gift to everyone, there can't possibly be depths locked in a gift unavailable to all. Also, it is as the Spirit of God wills, not as we will (1 Cor. 12:11). In other words, you can’t force or “put on” a manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit.Paul's desire is for edification for the body of Christ not individuals and that is why he urges tongue speakers to seek interpretation, and he equates interpreted tongues with prophecy which he calls the highest of all gifts. Uninterpreted tongues benefit nobody but the speaker. And he would have none of unintelligible in public precisely because of this 1 Cor 14:12 (KJV) Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Am pretty sure Gombs can't interpret any of his tongues yet he will revel in them as some achievement. Question is, how many has your hours of tongues edified? Very true, but it is a bold lie that tongues are 'there' for everyone. Cc: WinsomeXEven when Uninterpreted, tongues are still potent 1 Like |
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