davidylan:

And this is supposedly your laughable excuse against religion?

1. Religion deeply scarred human history but that has been over 500 yrs ago. Atheism from the likes of Lenin and Hitler has scarred history more . . . are you afraid of atheists too?

2. What happened in Jos is strictly islamic and for the most part cultural. Southern muslims for instance dont go beheading their christian neighbours. If you feel bad about islam pls head over to their thread instead of decietfully tarring us all with the same brush.

And Obama promptly reversed the order in January . . . no christians are complaining.

Next excuse pls.

This is essentially meaningless and ignorant jargon. The bible is replete with men who ACTIVELY QUESTIONED their faith -

1. Gideon
2. Moses
3. Peter

Just 3 examples shld suffice for now. As i said earlier . . . your problem is not that you are not allowed to "reason" and "question God" . . . your major problem is that you do not want to surrender your will and obedience. I repeat again . . . this constant drivel about "reason" is a sham, so you mean the rest of us in churches are just blank slates with no capacity to reason?

No, your problem is you dont want any moral responsibility, you dont want to leave the life of sin, you are not willing to pay the sacrifice for eternity.

Bizarre statement.  Does religions constraint or obliges any form of moral responsibility?   Where does the religion get its moral code from?

huxley2:

All or some of the following;

1)  They posit a god/deity or some divine entity

2)  They possess various forms of ritualisms

3)  Veneration of god/deity and the representatives of the god/deity.

4)  They are built around some sort of explanatory (usually mythological)  narratives.

5)  Some practitioners of said religions claim supernatural powers

etc, etc, etc

Those are the five most important that come to mind.

What do you think?

I would agree after giving it a cursory/superficial thought.  I wonder though . . .

1) What is the distinction between a God/divinity and other spiritual entities that are not considered to be divinities?  I think it is worth making a distinction cos not all spirits are divinities.

2)Ritual permeates religion but then again it permeates almost every human activities so as to be rendered pointless as a distinguishing characteristic.  Waking up in the morning brushing your teeth and doing 3 press ups (what?! You do more?  don't lie!)  everymorning is a ritual.  Usually about doing something more than 3 or 4 times  we start to approach it as a ritual.

I think what is more important is what the rituals are attempting to achieve.  Such things as reconciliation or purification etc.  

3)Veneration of Gods/diety is very important in my opinion.  Why should any being in the world be venerated?  By veneration I understand that they are treated differently from other beings.  ie a distinction is made in how they are respected.  

4)Explanatory narratives is an instinctual product of humans whether religious or otherwise.  This is what modern science is too.  I wouldn't really consider it a distinguishing characteristic of religion.  

5)As for supernatural powers etc I still haven't heard an acceptable definition of Natural as opposed to Supernatural.  Perhaps the Supernatural powers they claim are just natural powers.  

ps.  I'm not challenging you, but trying to reason WITH you.  What would you think of a people who don't even have a term religion.  They just call it 'the way we do things', or our traditions.  There are many societies where 'religion' is so permeated into the society as to be ubiquitous.  There is actually no such thing as Religion, a separate facet of life from mundanity.

Tùdor:

@davidylan
The jos crisis was 'islamic' - is islam not a religion? Were the xtians also not maiming and killing the muslims?

1. Go and read . . . the jos crisis was politically motivated. I asked earlier, if it was purely about islam why dont southern nigerian muslims kill their brothers and christians? Are they only half muslim?

Tùdor:

When hitler wanted to massacre the jews,didn,t he use the writings of martin luther the so called pentecostal reformer as an excuse?

Apparently you've been reading too much atheist fiction. Do you deny that Hitler was an atheist? So because he (allegedly) used Luther's writings as an excuse we can label his act a "christian" act? why didnt luther kill the jews himself?

And oh what about Lenin?

Tùdor:

The hypocrisy ridden in what is supposedly poor is shocking.that's where reasoning comes in. A god commands people to kill, rape,steal and loot. A god who confesses to jelousy and unforgiveness,a murderous god who commands animals to kill 42 children for just being kids- reason applied here,shows you the lies and hypocrisy.
Why would i wanna surrender my will to such a barbaric entity.
From your bible it shows believers don't have a choice,jonah questioned and was apparently imprisoned in a fish.

Believers have a choice - to believe or to, like you, refuse to believe and live a life absolutely free of God's influence. The Jonah excuse wont wash here . . . infact being swallowed by the fish apparently saved Jonah's life, he would simply have drowned in the sea.

huxley2:

Bizarre statement.  Does religions constraint or obliges any form of moral responsibility?   Why does the religion get its moral code from?

Christianity has no moral code, trust and obey is the fundamental principle. You have a right to opt out.

What are "constraints" to you are no more than principles. You dont enter college just because you are as tall as others in the entry class. You must pass an entrance exam and fulfill other stipulated requirements. Heaven is no different.

@davidylan
''he would simply have drowned in the sea'' - who caused the storm in the first place.so you agree your god is guilty of attempted murder (believers have choice indeed)
Muslims and xtians killing one another in the north and doesn't mean xtians and muslims should murder themselves in china- please reason and stop being deliberately myopic.
Martin luther wrote ''let their (jews) houses and belongings be burnt to the ground and them killed''. It actually sparked a few killings and it was only a matter of time before a lunatic like hitler took his words seriously and propagated it on a large scale. luther was apparently filled/inspired by the holy spirit.
Can you compare what lenin did to the genocide by moses, joshua,gideon and co. The likes of bin laden killing people in the name of god. Lenin is a saint in comparison to moses so shut it.

Tùdor:

@davidylan
''he would simply have drowned in the sea'' - who caused the storm in the first place.so you agree your god is guilty of attempted murder (believers have choice indeed)
Muslims and xtians killing one another in the north and doesn't mean xtians and muslims should murder themselves in china- please reason and stop being deliberately myopic.
Martin luther wrote ''let their (jews) houses and belongings be burnt to the ground and them killed''. It actually sparked a few killings and it was only a matter of time before a lunatic like hitler took his words seriously and propagated it on a large scale. luther was apparently filled/inspired by the holy spirit.
Can you compare what lenin did to the genocide by moses, joshua,gideon and co. The likes of bin laden killing people in the name of god. Lenin is a saint in comparison to moses so shut it.

Weak excuse. find a more genuine one. You're ranting about occurences at least 500 yrs ago.

You comit genocide 500 years ago or next week.you're still and will always be a criminal. It doesn't invalidate your crimes. If moses is at the right hand of god,then it's safe to say hitler is right there with him.

I did say you will never undertand because you are too religiously minded.
-Religions like christianity prevents spiritual growth because it is made up of a bunch of ritualistic practices based around blind obedience to dogma.
-Evolving from lower to higher consciousness,becoming one with the universe,or God(not that maniac in the OT).
-Yes,i do have a clue,but i don't think you do.You confuse religiousity with spirituality just like any other christian.
-Godless?No one can ever be Godless,because God exist within all of us,whether we are aware of it or not.Haven't you ever heard the saying that God is closer to us than our skin?If something is closer to you than your skin,then it is inside of you,no?The only god one can and should be without is that maniacal butcher in the OT.
-How has it prevented intellectual evolution?Because dogmatic religions have always tried their utmost to prevent and or discourage curiousity and inquisitiveness in humans who they come in contact with.These are crucial elements necessary for intellectual growth.Is that not why religion like christianity has always been at loggerheads with science?
-You have time to brainstorm over your thesis?Then you are not much of a christian,because as a true christian you are not supposed to "brainstorm" on anything other than read your bible and pray.
-Make sacrifices to what?Submit my will to whom?
Do i need these principles from religion to be able to live a non-rebellious life?No,i don't.
An,by the way,your intellectual "brainstorming" acts are rebellious acts against your religion.That is something worth thinking about.
-Awareness of what?Simple,awareness that we are all one,the entire mankind.The awareness that we are all one same consciousness,with the universe,with God.That we are not separate from each other,from God,or from what is.That awareness.Even Jesus taught that,but you missed it like most of your fellow christians.
-Only christians make excuses for the falsehoods they try to sell as truth.That is why it shackles people down and keeps them in boxes.
-

davidylan:

this must go down as one of the worst excuses of the yr.
- How does religion prevent you from "evolving" spiritually? Evolving from what to what? Do you even have a clue what spirituality is or you're simply misusing the word like many godless pple have recently started doing? You know nonsense like "spiritual but not religious"?

- How has it prevented you from evolving intellectually? I read my bible daily . . . and i still find plenty of time to read journals and brainstorm over my thesis . . . so hello?

i.e. it asks of you to make sacrifices, submit your will and be obedient to simple principles that are incompatible with a life of rebellion and sin.

Awareness of what?

Its getting increasingly obvious that you people seriously have no excuses at all.

davidylan:

Christianity has no moral code, trust and obey is the fundamental principle. You have a right to opt out.

What are "constraints" to you are no more than principles. You dont enter college just because you are as tall as others in the entry class. You must pass an entrance exam and fulfill other stipulated requirements. Heaven is no different.

Bizarre. Earlier, you attributed moral irresponsibility to the atheists and by implication moral responsibility to the atheist. However, here you just said Christianity has no moral code. Are moral code same as or different from "fundamental principle"?

Are such principle unavailable to non-theists?

jagunlabi:

-Godless?No one can ever be Godless,because God exist within all of us,whether we are aware of it or not

.

Lol, jagunlabi. . . I wonder that no atheist has picked up on that and asked a simple question: 'how do you know that "God exist within all of us,whether we are aware of it or not"??' Do they just take it for granted that your statement also involves them among that "all of us"?

But even more interesting is how you tried to buttress your assertion:

jagunlabi:
Haven't you ever heard the saying that God is closer to us than our skin?If something is closer to you than your skin,then it is inside of you,no?

Hahaha. . . comedy!   Okay, I hear. Now over to you atheists: listen to 'pastor jagunlabi' - whether you know it or not, his way of 'proving' God within you is the above.

I can understand your reaction,afterall your own idea of god is that butcher in the OT.He is the one who is your lord and it is with him that you wish to spend eternity with.Well,i wish you happy eternal life,as long as you don't get on his wrong side(which could be relatively easy according to the bible,the word of god).Let me just tell you that the god you believe in is a form,might be physical or mental(take your pick),but that is all he is,a form,and that makes him an egoic god, a false god.
As for atheists,they will get there in time.
It is just that the christian doctrine has totally perverted and polluted the image of God.

pilgrim.1:

.

Lol, jagunlabi. . . I wonder that no atheist has picked up on that and asked a simple question: 'how do you know that "God exist within all of us,whether we are aware of it or not"??' Do they just take it for granted that your statement also involves them among that "all of us"?

But even more interesting is how you tried to buttress your assertion:

Hahaha. . . comedy!   Okay, I hear. Now over to you atheists: listen to 'pastor jagunlabi' - whether you know it or not, his way of 'proving' God within you is the above.

jagunlabi:

I can understand your reaction,afterall your own idea of god is that butcher in the OT.He is the one who is your lord and it is with him that you wish to spend eternity with.Well,i wish you happy eternal life,as long as you don't get on his wrong side(which could be relatively easy according to the bible,the word of god).Let me just tell you that the god you believe in is a form,might be physical or mental(take your pick),but that is all he is,a form,and that makes him an egoic god, a false god.
As for atheists,they will get there in time.
It is just that the christian doctrine has totally perverted and polluted the image of God.

No offence intended. . . . . .but what is the sense in this u have written?

Never mind.You can't see sense in anything that does not agree with what your religion teaches you.

noetic2:

No offence intended. . . . . .but what is the sense in this u have written?

jagunlabi:

Never mind.You can't see sense in anything that does not agree with what your religion teaches you.

Not at all, my conclusion was derived after I analysed what u said. see below.

jagunlabi:

Let me just tell you that the god you believe in is a form,might be physical or mental(take your pick),

what makes Him physical or mental in this context?

but that is all he is,a form,and that makes him an egoic god, a false god.

For something to be false, there must be a true version. who then is the true GOD?
what makes GOD "egoic"?

As for atheists,they will get there in time.
It is just that the christian doctrine has totally perverted and polluted the image of God.

what is the authentic image of GOD?

Well,there are many examples in the bible OT.If you read it you will see them.For one,he walked through the garden of eden looking for the first pair.That makes him physical.
He fought an overnight wrestling bout with Jacob and lost.That makes him physical.
He also exhibits human traits,negative ones mostly,and "HE" is of the male gender.I could go on all night.

noetic2:
what makes Him physical or mental in this context?

It is not a "who" but a what, because the true God is formless,nameless.It is not bounded to any religion,race or creed.God is the sum total of all that is.

noetic2:

For something to be false, there must be a true version. who then is the true GOD?

The desire to be worshipped for one thing.The desire to be loved too.All this indicate that this god is in need,which means he lacks something,which makes him egoic and imperfect.Most of all,he seems never able to get enough of spilling the blood of the innocent.He is an egoic being of the worst kind.

noetic2:

what makes GOD "egoic"?

The authentic image of GOD is no image at all.The formlessness.It is better to say not what it is not,and you are left with what it is,which cannot be seen,but can be known.

noetic2:

what is the authentic image of GOD?

jagunlabi:

I can understand your reaction,afterall your own idea of god is that butcher in the OT.He is the one who is your lord and it is with him that you wish to spend eternity with.Well,i wish you happy eternal life,as long as you don't get on his wrong side(which could be relatively easy according to the bible,the word of god).Let me just tell you that the god you believe in is a form,might be physical or mental(take your pick),but that is all he is,a form,and that makes him an egoic god, a false god.
As for atheists,they will get there in time.
It is just that the christian doctrine has totally perverted and polluted the image of God.

I can also understand your reaction, and indeed it didn't come as a surprise. The one thing I requested was predictably left unanswered, which again leaves the atheist no nearer any susbtance in your assertions. Would you care to attempt it? Perhaps not; which was why I observed that indeed no atheist would have asked that simple question.

What is the request again?

pilgrim.1:

The one thing I requested was predictably left unanswered, which again leaves the atheist no nearer any susbtance in your assertions. Would you care to attempt it?

jagunlabi:

Well,there are many examples in the bible OT.If you read it you will see them.For one,he walked through the garden of eden looking for the first pair.That makes him physical.
He fought an overnight wrestling bout with Jacob and lost.That makes him physical.
He also exhibits human traits,negative ones mostly,and "HE" is of the male gender.I could go on all night.

man was made in GOD's image, not the other way round. To limit God to the spiritual is to have a biased and uninformed opinion of a "being" u ignorantly claim does not exist.

God is spiritual, man is physical. God is not limited to the spiritual, thats why he intervenes in the affairs of men when called upon in prayers. man is also not limited to the physical, that is why he has the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus.
where would u spend eternity, jagunlabi?

It is not a "who" but a what, because the true God is formless,nameless.It is not bounded to any religion,race or creed.God is the sum total of all that is.

This along with mazaje's recent rhetoric about "naturalism" is the most foolish, unintelligent, uninformed, ignorant and succinctly stupid postulation I have ever heard as an alternative to GOD.

what is the basis of ascribing all that exists to your own version of "GOD" and yet deny HIS capacity to EXIST and CREATE?
do u have any scientific or intellectual, rational or logical evidence/argument to buttress this?

what are the components of all that is? how do they add up to ur own version of "GOD"? what was the process involved? was it mathematical, scientific, logical or merely an uninformed assumption?

The desire to be worshipped for one thing.The desire to be loved too.All this indicate that this god is in need,which means he lacks something,which makes him egoic and imperfect.Most of all,he seems never able to get enough of spilling the blood of the innocent.He is an egoic being of the worst kind.

what does perfection mean? in what context do u understand GOD's perfection?
how does HIS request for worship make HIM imperfect?

The authentic image of GOD is no image at all.The formlessness.It is better to say not what it is not,and you are left with what it is,which cannot be seen,but can be known.

Another meaningless rhetoric. what does formlessness mean? is it the same meaningless?

u ambiguously define a God u claim does not exist to fit into ur preconceived notion of GOD.

jagunlabi:

pilgrim.1 link=topic=278488.msg3960383#msg3960383 date=1243879312:

The one thing I requested was predictably left unanswered, which again leaves the atheist no nearer any susbtance in your assertions. Would you care to attempt it?

What is the request again?

See:

pilgrim.1:

jagunlabi link=topic=278488.msg3958976#msg3958976 date=1243865832:

-Godless?No one can ever be Godless,because God exist within all of us,whether we are aware of it or not.

a simple question: 'how do you know that "God exist within all of us,whether we are aware of it or not"??' Do they just take it for granted that your statement also involves them among that "all of us"?

So the bible was all about a MAN and not god?Is that what you are saying?Yahweh was a man and not a deity?Try and make sense,man.

noetic2:

man was made in GOD's image, not the other way round. To limit God to the spiritual is to have a biased and uninformed opinion of a "being" u ignorantly claim does not exist.

The god of the bible is clearly physical according to the OT,because he behaved like one.

noetic2:

God is spiritual, man is physical. God is not limited to the spiritual, thats why he intervenes in the affairs of men when called upon in prayers. man is also not limited to the physical, that is why he has the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Where?I definitely hope not with El Sadistico!
On a serious note,i will spend my eternity where i was before i came into this existence.I simply return whence i came. I am not worried about that in the least.

noetic2:

where would u spend eternity, jagunlabi?

Not the alternative,but the real one.The god of the bible is the alternative one,and a horrible at that.And no,it is not all those things you called it.Just say you can't wrap your mind around it,yet.That is why religion provided a mental image for your mind to worship.It is simpler that way.

noetic2:

This along with mazaje's recent rhetoric about "naturalism" is the most foolish, unintelligent, uninformed, ignorant and succinctly stupid postulation I have ever heard as an alternative to GOD.

I never deny the existence of a creator and it's creative capacity.I am not an atheist,you know.
But to me,the creator is a force and not some jewish bloodthirsty deity who ran rampage on the middle eastern dessert some thousands of years ago,killing people at will.No,sir!

noetic2:

what is the basis of ascribing all that exists to your own version of "GOD" and yet deny HIS capacity to EXIST and CREATE?

I do,actually,a scientific one.But that is the domain of quantum physics.

noetic2:

do u have any scientific or intellectual, rational or logical evidence/argument to buttress this?

What all that is is?Well all that is in existence.The entire universe and all that it contains therein.I know it is difficult to wrap your mind around it and that is why an ugly image was needed to be created for you,and that was what your religion did.An image of a rampaging dessert deity.

noetic2:

what are the components of all that is? how do they add up to ur own version of "GOD"? what was the process involved? was it mathematical, scientific, logical or merely an uninformed assumption?

Perfection?It can mean a lot of thing to different people.As far as religious people are concern,they always see their gods as spotless,flawless,alknowing,all powerful,all wise,all loving.meaning perfectionWell the biblical god is none of these things,according to the bible.
What is perfection to you?

noetic2:

what does perfection mean? in what context do u understand GOD's perfection?

I already stated why in my earlier post.Don't make me repeat myself.What would you think of a human being like you who pointedly asks you to worship him?
To demand to be worship is an act of egoic state.God is supposed to be EGOLESS.

noetic2:

how does HIS request for worship make HIM imperfect?  

You don't know?It means no form,like spirits,or thoughts,or soul,os,or whatever you want to call it.These are just words,labels.They don't have much importance.

noetic2:

Another meaningless rhetoric. what does formlessness mean? is it the same meaningless?

Again,i never claimed there is no creator(i prefer to use that word) because i ain't no atheist.I just do not subscribe to the god that you subscribe to as existing,the bible god,that is.The butcher god.

noetic2:

u ambiguously define a God u claim does not exist to fit into ur preconceived notion of GOD.

@davidylan: If your capable of reasoning why will you surrender your will to a mere Text book writing by some people in thier language, for thier selfish reasons in the context of the time they wrote it.
Images in your sub-conscious mind shape the basis of your reality, i wonder how you can reason outside the box of religion when images in the churches has become the deity in your sub-conscious mind.

alphamode:

@davidylan: If your capable of reasoning why will you surrender your will to a mere Text book writing by some people in thier language, for thier selfish reasons in the context of the time they wrote it.
Images in your sub-conscious mind shape the basis of your reality, i wonder how you can reason outside the box of religion when images in the churches has become the deity in your sub-conscious mind.

He cannot reason outside the box of religion

Horus:

He cannot reason outside the box of religion

the bible (and the religion it teaches) is just allegories and tales used to reflect the religious views in those times. . . .

Tudor yu are one of the satans the opposer of God. if you do not repent you will damn yur soul to hell.

May God YHVH help you see the way.

Me satan?
May god YHVH punish you. . . .slowpoke

ifele:

Tudor yu are one of the satans the opposer of God. if you do not repent you will damn yur soul to hell.

May God YHVH help you see the way.

did he tell you that he is afraid of hell? if he is ever afraid of hell will he be here posting anti christian post?

Do you deny that Hitler was an atheist?

huh i didn't get the memo on this. you davidylan are something else.

@ Mazaje; allegories and tales (metaphor and simile) stolen from ancient Egyptian spiritual system and astrology, corrupted to allign with thier evil purposes, used to deceive our ancestors by the jews who cloaked themselves as missionaries.