Scholar8200:
Let's consider:

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 2:1

1. It says we are to sin not- that is the norm, a state of true soul health
2. It says IF not WHEN any man sins. Meaning it might come as a surprise, not a normal aspect of the new life.
3. It says we have an Advocate with the Father. Meaning If sin comes in, we will once again need the mediation of our Advocate, not a flippant claim of, "God sees me through Jesus hence it does not matter". The imagery here is what was painted in the OT when a trespasser came to the High Priest with a sacrifice. However, now, He is the Advocate, He is the sacrifice, we come by faith and repentance.
4. Does this mean we are free to continue in the sin-and-repent vicious circle?

6 [b]No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him
1 John 3:6[/b]AMP

Simply tell us what we need to do to be saved, list it all out, as no other condition will be accepted after salvation.

5solas:


I thank God for the bolded!
I think it is the reason for most of the opposition to eternal security.
In trying to show salvation can be lost, why is your focus on that which is done AFTER salvation, when it is NOT what saves, since it (what is done AFTER salvation) must necessarily be the EFFECT of salvation and NOT the CAUSE?



Flowing from your flawed reasoning above,it is clear your conclusion must necessarily be wrong.


In short, your submission should be we are not yet saved since we still have some things to do to be saved or perfect our salvation.


This is correct but nothing to the purpose since it is what we need to do, AFTER salvation!


Surely not a pre-qualification test for salvation .

you are right! What is done after salvation is as a result of being saved that is my point.

I know there is eternal security in Christ. Salvation is not based on our works at all but based on the saving power of Christ both in saving and in keeping us. We have no power at all to save ourselves.
Amen

solite3:
you are right! What is done after salvation is as a result of being saved that is my point.

So your argument amounts to nothing! You cannot hold a believer gets lost for not doing what he is supposed to do AFTER salvation! For what he does AFTER salvation can not and does not contribute to that salvation!

solite3:
I know there is eternal security in Christ. Salvation is not based on our works at all but based on the saving power of Christ both in saving and in keeping us. We have no power at all to save ourselves.
Amen

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have seen the whole point of the argument!

5solas:

So your argument amounts to nothing! You cannot hold a believer gets lost for not doing what he is supposed to do AFTER salvation! For what he does AFTER salvation can not and does not contribute to that salvation!

Grace and Truth came by Jesus and here's what HE said:

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 15:6-8

Implication is:
1. The Vine holds the branch yet the branch in HIM that is fruitless will be cast forth! Whither your claims of Eternal security, once saved always saved? Or predestination?

2. Note that the branch to be cast forth was once IN the Vine! This knocks down your claims that some people that backslid in the NT were not actually saved.

3. We are saved by faith but if that faith does not , by the Indwelling Spirit(not by self-effort or struggling), reveal itself in fruitfulness we are cast forth just like Israel was and we CANNOT lay claims to be His disciples! And in the end, we shall be told,"I never knew you"

Scholar8200:
Grace and Truth came by Jesus and here's what HE said:

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 15:6-8

Implication is:
1. The Vine holds the branch yet the branch in HIM that is fruitless will be cast forth! Whither your claims of Eternal security, once saved always saved? Or predestination?

2. Note that the branch to be cast forth was once IN the Vine! This knocks down your claims that some people that backslid in the NT were not actually saved.

3. We are saved by faith but if that faith does not , by the Indwelling Spirit(not by self-effort or struggling), reveal itself in fruitfulness we are cast forth just like Israel was and we CANNOT lay claims to be His disciples! And in the end, we shall be told,"I never knew you"

You are responding to my response to Solite3, whereas you have left my question to you unanswered.
List the things we need to do to be saved. Without knowing them, we will not know if we are saved or not and definitely cannot argue intelligently, if a believer can lose salvation or otherwise.

5solas:


You are responding to my response to Solite3, whereas you have left my question to you unanswered.
List the things we need to do to be saved. Without knowing them, we will not know if we are saved or not and definitely cannot argue intelligently, if a believer can lose salvation or otherwise.

The highlighted is the focus of this thread hence find your answers thereto here:

Scholar8200:
Grace and Truth came by Jesus and here's what HE said:
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:6-8
Implication is:
1. The Vine holds the branch yet the branch in HIM that is fruitless will be cast forth! Whither your claims of Eternal security, once saved always saved? Or predestination?
2. Note that the branch to be cast forth was once IN the Vine! This knocks down your claims that some people that backslid in the NT were not actually saved.
3. We are saved by faith but if that faith does not , by the Indwelling Spirit(not by self-effort or struggling), reveal itself in fruitfulness we are cast forth just like Israel was and we CANNOT lay claims to be His disciples! And in the end, we shall be told,"I never knew you"

5solas:

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have seen the whole point of the argument!

yes he does it on one condition if we surrender to him

5solas:

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have seen the whole point of the argument!

yes he does it on one condition if we keep surrendering to him

5solas:

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have seen the whole point of the argument!

yes he does it on one condition if we keep surrendering ourself to him

5solas:


You surely do not know the opinion of the reformers on this matter, so I will bear with you.

who are reformers?Are they not saints?Any born again child of God is a reformer, not to talk of Pastor W.F Kumuyi a world-wide evangelist and christian leader.

Scholar8200:
Grace and Truth came by Jesus and here's what HE said:

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 15:6-8

Implication is:
1. The Vine holds the branch yet the branch in HIM that is fruitless will be cast forth! Whither your claims of Eternal security, once saved always saved? Or predestination?

2. Note that the branch to be cast forth was once IN the Vine! This knocks down your claims that some people that backslid in the NT were not actually saved.

3. We are saved by faith but if that faith does not , by the Indwelling Spirit(not by self-effort or struggling), reveal itself in fruitfulness we are cast forth just like Israel was and we CANNOT lay claims to be His disciples! And in the end, we shall be told,"I never knew you"

Nice point

solite3:
yes he does it on one condition if we surrender to him

Sufficient for me is this admission:

solite3:
I know there is eternal security in Christ. Salvation is not based on our works at all but based on the saving power of Christ both in saving and in keeping us. We have no power at all to save ourselves.
Amen

Scholar8200:
Grace and Truth came by Jesus and here's what HE said:

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 15:6-8

Implication is:
1. The Vine holds the branch yet the branch in HIM that is fruitless will be cast forth! Whither your claims of Eternal security, once saved always saved? Or predestination?

2. Note that the branch to be cast forth was once IN the Vine! This knocks down your claims that some people that backslid in the NT were not actually saved.

3. We are saved by faith but if that faith does not , by the Indwelling Spirit(not by self-effort or struggling), reveal itself in fruitfulness we are cast forth just like Israel was and we CANNOT lay claims to be His disciples! And in the end, we shall be told,"I never knew you"

petra1:


Nice point

You are being hood-winked! Before you know it, you will find yourself, in Rome!

Scholar8200:
Grace and Truth came by Jesus and here's what HE said:

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 15:6-8

First of all, add 15:16

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Those in Christ are chosen for salvation! So you got it wrong here! In your own chosen passage! And the whole of scripture will equally prove you false!
Secondly, those chosen are ordained to do good works! They are not the people you imagine them to be, who choose sin over Him.

Scholar8200:
Implication is:
1. The Vine holds the branch yet the branch in HIM that is fruitless will be cast forth! Whither your claims of Eternal security, once saved always saved? Or predestination?

This is laughable. To be taken seriously you have to identify what saves a man, if you don't know it,you will continue making false conclusions.

Scholar8200:
2. Note that the branch to be cast forth was once IN the Vine! This knocks down your claims that some people that backslid in the NT were not actually saved.

So Ananias and Sapphira got lost for their lies, right? Is telling the truth or refraining from lying one of the conditions for salvation then?
Come up with your list!

Scholar8200:
3. We are saved by faith but if that faith does not , by the Indwelling Spirit(not by self-effort or struggling), reveal itself in fruitfulness we are cast forth just like Israel was and we CANNOT lay claims to be His disciples! And in the end, we shall be told,"I never knew you"

Those who are saved are ordained for good works! So your argument amounts to nothing!
Eph.2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Stick to the subject! Leave those things we ought to do AFTER we are saved and tell us those things we need to do to be saved.

alolatee:



who are reformers?Are they not saints?Any born again child of God is a reformer, not to talk of Pastor W.F Kumuyi a world-wide evangelist and christian leader.

Unfortunately, he doesn't know this truth, however great he may be in other areas.

5solas:


First of all, add 15:16

Those in Christ are chosen for salvation! So you got it wrong here! In your own chosen passage! And the whole of scripture will equally prove you false!

In trying to force that verse to agree with you you contradict the part that says a branch will be cast off!

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:2

If they were 'chosen' for salvation like you claim, what meaneth this attached condition?:

Ye are my friends, [size=18pt]if[/size] ye do whatsoever I command you.
John 15:14

Secondly, those chosen are ordained to do good works! They are not the people you imagine them to be, who choose sin over Him.

Relate this to:
Every [size=18pt]branch in me[/size] that beareth not fruit [size=18pt]he taketh away[/size]: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:2

This is laughable. To be taken seriously you have to identify what saves a man, if you don't know it,you will continue making false conclusions.



So Ananias and Sapphira got lost for their lies, right? Is telling the truth or refraining from lying one of the conditions for salvation then?
Come up with your list!

refer to my response to this request.

Those who are saved are ordained for good works! So your argument amounts to nothing!
Eph.2:10

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:2

So are you trying to say the True Vine has 2 TYPES of branches - those that can be taken away and those that cannot be removed

Stick to the subject! Leave those things we ought to do AFTER we are saved and tell us those things we need to do to be saved.

Thread is on Eternal security.

Scholar8200:
We are saved by faith. Now can a believer fall or depart from the faith?Are there any warnings to believers of this possibility? If yes, what are the consequences if that happens?

Your answer to this answers all the above.

The matter is not as ''simple'' as you try to make it. If it were you would have easily refuted us who hold that a believer cannot lose salvation.
You must dribble past Jesus and His teachings first! Not to talk of other parts of the scriptures!

Matthew 24

22[b] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[/b]
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Who are the elects? Do you see any chance of them losing salvation? These are things you have to examine critically before concluding.

5solas:

The matter is not as ''simple'' as you try to make it. If it were you would have easily refuted us who hold that a believer cannot lose salvation.
You must dribble past Jesus and His teachings first! Not to talk of other parts of the scriptures!

We dont need to go too far. First clarify your stand bearing John 15:2 in mind.
[size=14pt]
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:2[/size]

Matthew 24

Who are the elects? Do you see any chance of them losing salvation? These are things you have to examine critically before concluding.

That passage speaks of the time of the Great Tribulation and Bible tells us who the elects will be at that time after the rapture of the Church:

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
Jeremiah 30:7

The GT would focus on Israel and the latter would seek the Messiah Who they once rejected. Hence after the rapture/catching away of the Church, the elect in that context of Matthew 24 refer NOT to the Church(already gone) but to Israel.

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 45:4

Scholar8200:

We dont need to go too far. First clarify your stand bearing John 15:2 in mind.
[size=14pt]
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:2[/size]

That passage speaks of the time of the Great Tribulation and Bible tells us who the elects will be at that time after the rapture of the Church:

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
Jeremiah 30:7

The GT would focus on Israel and the latter would seek the Messiah Who they once rejected. Hence after the rapture/catching away of the Church, the elect in that context of Matthew 24 refer NOT to the Church(already gone) but to Israel.

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 45:4

So in the context of Matthew 24, the elects cannot but be saved, right?

5solas:

So in the context of Matthew 24, the elects cannot but be saved, right?

In the context of Matthew 24, the salvation of the elects refers to their deliverance from the rampaging antichrist. Not the salvation by Grace.

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be [size=18pt]saved out of it[/size].

Jeremiah 30:7


After 3.5 years of this trouble, then follows the battle of Amargeddon which starts with the Descent of Jesus Christ and the destruction of the antichrist, false prophet and their armies. At this time, the Israelites would receive Him.

Matthew 24 focuses Eschatological happenings!

Scholar8200:
In the context of Matthew 24, the salvation of the elects refers to their deliverance from the rampaging antichrist. Not the salvation by Grace.

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be [size=18pt]saved out of it[/size].

Jeremiah 30:7


After 3.5 years of this trouble, then follows the battle of Amargeddon which starts with the Descent of Jesus Christ and the destruction of the antichrist, false prophet and their armies. At this time, the Israelites would receive Him.

Matthew 24 focuses Eschatological happenings!

The question is simple enough, the elects at the time of the GT, is it possible for them to be deceived and be other than saved?

5solas:

The question is simple enough, the elects at the time of the GT, is it possible for them to be deceived and be other than saved?

According to the setting of the passage, the elect (israel), will be saved from the GT by the shortening of the days.
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened
Matthew 24:21,22

here we see what the elect would be saved from during the GT.

Hence, inasmuch as the elect during the GT is not the Church, your attempt at applying Matthew 24 to the Church is wrong

Scholar8200:
According to the setting of the passage, the elect (israel), will be saved from the GT by the shortening of the days.
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened
Matthew 24:21,22

here we see what the elect would be saved from during the GT.

Hence, inasmuch as the elect during the GT is not the Church, your attempt at applying Matthew 24 to the Church is wrong

You have taken so much pains to avoid answering a simple ''yes'' to my question.
That those are great tribulation elects is not in contention here. The attributes of these elects is . Do they share the same attributes as these:
1 Peter 1

1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Who are the elects referred to above? Do you see the possibility of these losing salvation?

5solas:

You have taken so much pains to avoid answering a simple ''yes'' to my question.
That those are great tribulation elects is not in contention here. The attributes of these elects is . Do they share the same attributes as these:
1 Peter 1

It is a contention! The elects during the GT refer to those originally so called in Isaiah 45 which I quoted before! Why will the Church be here to face the GT? If the Church will be here then who are the elects then, and what or who does the GT serve to awaken?

Who are the elects referred to above? Do you see the possibility of these losing salvation?

Peter was not writing on eschatological events!!! Indeed there are various parts of the NT where the Church is called the elect, in fact one passage calls the Church the Israel of God. However, we are referring to a time when the spiritual elects/Israel - the Church- will no longer be on Earth. Then the nation - Israel- called the elect in Isaiah 45 will be the reference and object.

Scholar8200:
It is a contention! The elects during the GT refer to those originally so called in Isaiah 45 which I quoted before! Why will the Church be here to face the GT?

I am not contending with you over who the elects referred to (in Matthew 24)are. My contention is who the elects are in the Bible as a whole. If they are different in different contexts you should say so. My contention is that the elects without distinction cannot be other than saved . Leaving Matthew 24 (to avoid contention) I arrived at 1 Peter 1:2 and asked if the elects there can be lost or if their attributes differ from that of those in Matthew 24 and it is difficult to get a straight answer from you.

Scholar8200:

If the Church will be here then who are the elects then, and what or who does the GT serve to awaken?

Do I understand you to be referring to the Church as the elects here? You know that is my contention.

Scholar8200:

Peter was not writing on eschatological events!!! Indeed there are various parts of the NT where the Church is called the elect, in fact one passage calls the Church the Israel of God. However, we are referring to a time when the spiritual elects/Israel - the Church- will no longer be on Earth. Then the nation - Israel- called the elect in Isaiah 45 will be the reference and object.

Stop playing to the gallery!
Leave Matthew 24 and all that pertains to it and simply tell me if the elects, referred to by Peter, can lose salvation.

5solas:

I am not contending with you over who the elects referred to (in Matthew 24)are. My contention is who the elects are in the Bible as a whole. If they are different in different contexts you should say so.

I have said so before! See:

Indeed there are various parts of the NT where the[b] Church is called the elect[/b], in fact one passage calls the Church the Israel of God. However, we are referring to a time when the spiritual elects/Israel - the Church- will no longer be on Earth. [b]Then the nation - Israel- called the elect in Isaiah 45 [/b]will be the reference and object.

My contention is that the elects without distinction cannot be other than saved . Leaving Matthew 24 (to avoid contention) I arrived at 1 Peter 1:2 and asked if the elects there can be lost or if their attributes differ from that of those in Matthew 24 and it is difficult to get a straight answer from you.

That's because the elect in Matthew 24 are not the same with those in 1Peter hence no correlation nor basis of comparison. The salvation referred to in the parlance of the one is different from that referred to by the other hence no basis of comparison exists!

Stop playing to the gallery!
Leave Matthew 24 and all that pertains to it and simply tell me if the elects, referred to by Peter, can lose salvation.

That was not the purpose of the Letter. Besides, Peter wrote this below, do you therefore assume to know better?:

20 For if[b] after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[/b]

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2 Peter 2:20,21

Take note, they were genuinely saved but they backslid! Whither your claims of Eternal Security??! Or are there 2 classes of Christians the saved but not elects, and the saved and elect


This is very similar to Paul writing about the Church and Israel thus:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, [size=15pt]if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off[/size].

Romans 11:21,22

All based on John 15:2. Recall that this verse started by saying Israel were:

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Romans 11:2

You appear confused about the word 'elect' and ''foreknew'. Understand that they also were cut off! Whither the basis of "Eternal Security".

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation but only them that believe experiences this power. However, if we fail to hold fast and continue in the faith, we are cast forth and if we dont make our way right will be told, "I never knew you"!

Scholar8200:
I have said so before! See:



That's because the elect in Matthew 24 are not the same with those in 1Peter hence no correlation nor basis of comparison. The salvation referred to in the parlance of the one is different from that referred to by the other hence no basis of comparison exists!


That was not the purpose of the Letter. Besides, Peter wrote this below, do you therefore assume to know better?:

20 For if[b] after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[/b]

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2 Peter 2:20,21

Take note, they were genuinely saved but they backslid! Whither your claims of Eternal Security??! Or are there 2 classes of Christians the saved but not elects, and the saved and elect


This is very similar to Paul writing about the Church and Israel thus:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, [size=15pt]if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off[/size].

Romans 11:21,22

All based on John 15:2. Recall that this verse started by saying Israel were:

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Romans 11:2

You appear confused about the word 'elect' and ''foreknew'. Understand that they also were cut off! Whither the basis of "Eternal Security".

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation but only them that believe experiences this power. However, if we fail to hold fast and continue in the faith, we are cast forth and if we dont make our way right will be told, "I never knew you"!

Artful dodger! Simply give your opinion of what he meant, if you don't know it, say so.
How can you write about other things but ignore my question? Explain 1 Peter 1:2.

Scholar8200:
I have said so before! See:



That's because the elect in Matthew 24 are not the same with those in 1Peter hence no correlation nor basis of comparison. The salvation referred to in the parlance of the one is different from that referred to by the other hence no basis of comparison exists!


That was not the purpose of the Letter. Besides, Peter wrote this below, do you therefore assume to know better?:

20 For if[b] after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[/b]

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2 Peter 2:20,21

Take note, they were genuinely saved but they backslid! Whither your claims of Eternal Security??! Or are there 2 classes of Christians the saved but not elects, and the saved and elect


This is very similar to Paul writing about the Church and Israel thus:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, [size=15pt]if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off[/size].

Romans 11:21,22

All based on John 15:2. Recall that this verse started by saying Israel were:

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Romans 11:2

You appear confused about the word 'elect' and ''foreknew'. Understand that they also were cut off! Whither the basis of "Eternal Security".

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation but only them that believe experiences this power. However, if we fail to hold fast and continue in the faith, we are cast forth and if we dont make our way right will be told, "I never knew you"!

Artful dodger! Simply give your opinion of what he meant, if you don't know it, say so.
How can you write about other things but ignore my simple question? Explain 1 Peter 1:2.

5solas:

Artful dodger! Simply give your opinion of what he meant, if you don't know it, say so.
How can you write about other things but ignore my simple question? Explain 1 Peter 1:2.

My opinion of what Peter meant? Here's why error thrives, resort to not what is written(viz z viz parallel verses) but what we wish / think it says or means!!!

I will rather see what Peter wrote to understand his position (as Inspired) on Eternal security:

For if after they have escaped the pollutions[/b]of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, [b]they are [size=16pt]again entangled therein[/size], and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning
2 Peter 2:20

Once saved but again lost!

Scholar8200:


My opinion of what Peter meant? Here's why error thrives, resort to not what is written(viz z viz parallel verses) but what we wish / think it says or means!!!

I will rather see what Peter wrote to understand his position (as Inspired) on Eternal security:

For if after they have escaped the pollutions[/b]of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, [b]they are [size=16pt]again entangled therein[/size], and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning
2 Peter 2:20

Once saved but again lost!

The belief that a believer can lose salvation is false! You merely deceive the uninitiated while the initiated laugh at you. The belief is a conclusion founded on faulty premises. Keep it! Why those of us who believe we can't be lost will keep ours. Our belief is founded on the revealed truths which it is clear you are not ready to consider. Farewell!