shadeyinka:




I guess you mean that THERE IS NO WORD or TEXT as rapture in the Bible. The word RAPTURE describes the words “caught up” or “taken away” . So what?

0ubenji:

Hold on, sir, b4 u start doin copy and paste of some orthodox theological junk u don't understand. Do u intend to confuse readers with these mumbo-jumbo?
Let the audience learn in layman's terms. All these highly digressive perspectives of urs can't elude me. Keep that in Mind
Now, to the subject matter.

1. Enoch's case has nothing to do with rapture...in view of the fact that ur idea of rapture is the trasnport of saints into another state. U seem to forget Enoch wasn't the only saint on earth as at when he was taken up into heaven. So are u telling me there's "selective rapture" ?...lolz

2. Abeg, give a scriptural reference that implies the transfiguration of Noah and all other saved creatures b4 the flood and another evidence in the case of lot being taken into a figure.

P.S: Counter my points in context with or without scriptural backings(as u please), but don't come[b] pasting stuffs here u obviously dint read Up b4 pressing the SUBMIT button. Remember, I know how to paste too.[/b]

Contrary to popular belief, Adam and Eve were expelled
from Eden not because they ate the forbidden fruit of the
tree of knowledge of good and evil, but in order to prevent
them from eating from the tree of life (both forbidden trees
are in Genesis 2:9) which would have made them eternal.
God doesn’t like competition! Here is the verse (Genesis
3:22-23): “And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us,
knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put
forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and
live for ever. [23] And the Lord God sent him out of the
paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was
taken.”

JONAH WAS NOT SWALLOWED UP BY A WHALE


We all know the tale of Jonah and the whale(since we were kids)… but how well
do we know it?
Well enough to know that he wasn’t eaten by
a whale? It was no mammal that ate Jonah – it was a huge
fish – though its type is not mentioned. Of course, I am
presuming that any smart xtian reading this list would wanna question my assertion.

Well, here is the eye opener: the book of jonah recorded it was a fish(tho of an unmentioned type). This confusing "whale" term came from the book of Matthew 12 vs 40 where it was used with reference to that story. The bone of contention here is the translation errors involved.

Yet again, I know some religious fanatic reading this( the types that would refuse to fault the bible for anything) would still disagree, in an attempt to debate that both bible references mean the same thing.
Just chill, Sir/Ma, A whale is not a fish. #Q.E.D

THERE's NO SUCH THING AS RAPTURE

The “Rapture” is not in the Bible!

large number of christians (many of whom also believe
that only that , which is in the Bible can be true; Yea rite! "Rapture" aint in the bible.)

it was actually invented in the 1600s by one Cotton Mather –
otherwise famous for murdering women by strangling them
to death (by hanging) in the Salem witch trials. The term in

the Bible commonly mistranslated to the word “rapture”
actually comes from the Greek ἁρπάζω (harpazo) which
actually means “caught up” or “taken away” and it refers to
one person only (Philip).

P.S: Opposing views are welcomed. Atleast open your bible and read thoroughly(and understand in context) before coming forward with a debate

0ubenji:

I never implied directly or indirectly that those that wud meet the lord are sinners. U can quote me on any part of my writing where I said so..
My point is "getting caught up". To meet the lord has nothing to do with ur idea of rapture.
Obviously u'e been speaking but not listening sinx. #Strange

Noah and his family — "the good guys". The bad guys
were taken('caught up' in the flood) and the good guys were left behind!

-------------

After Sodom
and Gomorrah went up in smoke, who was left?

Lot and his
daughters — "the good guys". The bad guys were taken('caught up' in the fire) and
the good guys were left behind!.

Ii is only when the bad guys have been taken away unto judgement, then the good guys left behind will be caught up with the lord upon arrival.

0ubenji:

Yet again, u quoted a scriptural reference u got no understanding of.
Sir, that passage actually talks bou the defeat of satan. I fink I'll not give u a cheap and direct answer on this. It'll come in form of a rhetoric
U asked me. Who does satan decieve after the Millenial reign"...I guess u don't want to assume it's the saints satan decieved.
Well, verse 9 tells us how satan was defeated, so on whose behalf was satan defeated by God?
The same sinners that he must have left on earth to suffer chey?

0ubenji:

I gave u a detailed comparison of three scriptural references which were indeed prophecies and promises, u're stil askin for cross-examination of scripture with scripture, promise and prophecies..
Kindly open ur dictionary to check the meaning of words b4 u use them..
The funny thing is that u r yet to gimme any scriptural cross examination, u merely quoting various scriptures haphazardly to backup ur claims on rapture. U really have a loose perspective on this.
Not to worry, I'll help separate the RELEVANT seeds from the shaft.

0ubenji:

Lolz...yet again u just showed ur shallow understanding of subject matter...u don't just debate scriptural meanings and What they imply with one translation of the bible. That makes u reek of bigotry or ignorance.
If u're looking for "left"...go read the passage in ESV(english Standard Version), NET(new english translation) and ASV(American Standard Versions) bible Translations to mention a few. #CaseClosed

Scholar8200:
Well, it is NOT the saints but those left behind after the Battle of Armageddon:

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:16
They were not part of the armies of the Beast (Rev 19: 19-21), but are the ones who, for the time of the Millenial reign will be free from deception because the Devil is bound. Once same is loosed, they, not the saints,will be deceived!

This lays to rest your claims of sinners being taken first before the saints!!!

Scholar8200:

Interesting, what does this imply, 2 raptures isnt it?


And

Scholar8200:
Well, why didnt you just quote from these? Why use the word in the midst of the KJV especially when the word as used in Matthew 24 is not found in 1 Thessalonians in the same version?

solite3:
Adam was expelled not because of competition with God but
because God didn't want him to live forever in that fallen
state

solite3:
nobody knows the type of fish biologically whale is no fish
but by resemblance it looks like a fish OK?

0ubenji:

On the rapture issue, u made no point. U merely highlighted "caught up" which I already emphasized is not the same as "rapture"...I'll appreciate apt points pls..tnx

Hmmn...u got such an interesting perspective on why God purportedly sent Adam and Eve out of Eden.
So, sending them out of the Garden and heaping quality curses upon them is an indication that he wants them not to remain in a fallen state.
I never knew Irrevocable curses of pain can put man on a risen state.
JESUS IS LORD.

0ubenji:

Even the Person swallowed by the fish, don't know the kind of fish that swallowed him up?. Yet he cud write the book of Jonah(as we're made to bliv) in detail about every other thing. The last time I checked, the books of the bible were supposedly written under some sort of Divine inspiration and revelation. You, my friend, are bout to tel me now that the description of a fish must av eluded both the Eyewitness and victim of the Incident as well as the Divine spirit that inspired him to write the book too?

solite3:
the type of fish is unimportant to the message it carries

0ubenji:

Stop muddling things up, u av shifted from the false ideology of rapture .....

0ubenji:

"Behold adam become as one of
us,
knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he
put
forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat,
and
live for ever"


If that passage don't come across to u as some sort of avoidance of competition, then I'd leave u to ur opinion. You should ask urself why "satan" who's in competition with God is the same person God warns Adam and Eve against, so as not to take upon themselves the sort of wisdom he promises dem if dey cud go against God's will.

Hmmmn...human being; a spirit, then needs to die again to be rebirthed, yet u say he is ETERNAL by nature. You are about to confuse urself with delicate terms sir.

[quote author=0ubenji post=48226300]
The authencity of acclaimed facts gives credence to a story.

U implying that if I give u $1Million as at this moment(for no apparent reason), the source of the cash is unimportant to u, you'd rather stick to my claim of incredible benevolence?
Ur remark is a careless one, sir.
It means it's very well acceptable to employ dubious means for a good cause, provided the motive is good.

U seem to fink I got a prob with jonah. Not exactly, if u wud re-read my original post. I gave credence to the fact that he(jonah) [b]was swallowed by a fish, not a whale. [/b]This is coz I choose to give credence to his story from the perspective of an eyewitness's account.
I choose to not be dragged into a debate of the authenticity of acclaimed authorship of the book of jonah as at dis time; atleast not to derail the thread. Tnx and do ava gudnite

solite3:
bold this goes to show you don't even understand what
you wrote. You are the one who suppose to tell me the type of fish since you said it is not a whale
I neither agreed nor disagreed with you
It may or it may not be a whale
You are saying whale is not a fish only because scientist do
not classify whale as fish but remember the author was not
a scientist.
So the burden of proof lies with you sir!

shadeyinka:


Death is NOT a cease-action of life. Death simply means a separation or disconnection of a mans soul and spirit from his body. A man exists fully and consciously even without his body. Check out Lazarus, Abraham and the Rich man...

By Gods nature, why should He be afraid of anything except the god you refer to is not the Almighty, All knowing and Omnipresent God. I have s feeling that the god you are referring to is LIMITED! I hope not.

mojeer678:
.

Scholar8200:
That is Love in display!!!!! If Adam and Eve had taken from that tree after the fall, there would be NO possibility of Redemption! They would have sealed their fate, hence God Who loved them prevented that from happening! Perfect Love you cant resist!!!

----------------------
But it is an acquatic animal! Besides, this shows the original- http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/12-40.htm. Before you scream, remember they were translating,not transliterating.
----------------
Read 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-17 There the rapture is described. Call it any name, that is the description. Just like some call it communion, holy communion, sacrament,Lord's supper but still all refer to the same thing!

promise10:

Wow, you just made a lot of sense with the bolded response up there.

God bless you bro!

0ubenji:

I am supposed to tell u d type of fish the author to describe?. U askin if he was a scientist, forgetting he wasn't a trained writer in any way either, yet he wrote with such skill. If I encounter a kind of animal in the bush, I don't need to be a scientist to give a detailed description(as an eyewitness), so that someone who may apun to knw the creature(from the description) can recognize it and probably name it, TO AVOID CONFUSION. That, my friend, is common sense. How do u even reason on this, sir? It's very Strange I must say.
My write-up on jonah nd the whale in the context of my original post(If u read to comprehension) is to exterminate any sort of confusion as to whether it's a fish or whale and it ended thr. Pointing out that, they aint the same. I never raised any issue on the type of fish. You're the one here putting jonah on the hot seat as to the type of fish he strangely refused to describe AT ALL.
Bro..what exactly is ur argument. I find myself lecturing u somehow and it aint kool to me. Find a perspective to holdon onto jaree. We need to learn on forums such as these.

It was no mammal that ate Jonah – it was a huge
fish – though its type is not mentioned. Of course, I am

solite3:
yes this is a forum where we learn but learning also include corrections
Look at your statement
@ bold you said it wasn't a mammal but a fish. The correction there is, you cannot use modern day ways of classification to discredit the fact that it may be a whale because the method of classification of animals back then is different.
Again since the type wasn't mentioned how did you know if it wasn't a whale?

Pls take note it may or may not be a whale but for the sake of clarity I stand with matt 12:40.
Shallom

0ubenji:

I tot bou counterin an issue in ur comment asap, but then I saw ur white flag.
I like the way u ended ur write-up, that u choose to stand with matt 12:40. Ehen! Atleast u now av a perspective(opposed to Jonah's tho). I never forced my view up ur throat. Remember, I stated that opposing views are welcomed. Remain Blessed.

solite3:
God bless you remain rapturable

0ubenji:

Haha..advocating for rapture now?
Hmmn "remain rapturable"....Lolz...I love ur humor...


#We're officially friends.
BUT,

This doesn't stop us from being on opposing sides(if necessary) in subsequent debates of relevance.
TERMS & CONDITIONS APPLY..lolz

0ubenji:
The “Rapture” being referred to in a passage in 1Thessalonians 4:16-18, where Christians are “caught up” in the
clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” have been largely misconcieved.

Many Christians believe,
and promote, that this being “caught
up” to meet the Lord will occur before the Great Tribulation
sometime in the near future. Christians will simply vanish(as we've always assumed),
meet Jesus somewhere in the air, and then return with Him
to Heaven to await the end of time.
But notice, in 1Thessalonians 4:15, Paul says that “…we who are alive,
who are left,” shall be caught up.
This is a very important
point to stress to rapture enthusiasts.
Those who are “left”
get caught up to meet the Lord.

Keep that in mind as we look
at these next couple of Scripture passages.

The "rapture" concept got their ideology from a passage in
Luke 17:22-37(the very one scholar8200 refused to read up for understandable reasons), and a similar passage in Matthew 24:29-44, which
"strongly compares" the coming of the Lord to the days of Noah and
the days of Lot.

Matthew 24 puts it this way: “As were the
days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man…[they
ate, they drank, they married] and they did not know until
the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the
coming of the Son of man. Then two men will be in the field,
one is taken and one is left. Two women grinding at the mill,
one is taken one is left.”

----------------------------

“One is taken, one is left” — the Rapture right?

Jesus takes
the Christians and leaves behind non-Christians!

That’s how rapture enthusiasts interpret these passages..

---------------

Well, there are however. Two problems with these "rapture” interpretation:

First, in the passages from Luke 17 and Matthew 24, Jesus’
coming is compared to the days of Noah and the days of Lot.
Let’s think about that for a moment. After the flood, who was
left?

Noah and his family — "the good guys". The bad guys
were taken('caught up' in the flood) and the good guys were left behind!

-------------

After Sodom
and Gomorrah went up in smoke, who was left?

Lot and his
daughters — "the good guys". The bad guys were taken('caught up' in the fire) and
the good guys were left behind!.

------------------

The second problem with the dogmatic “rapture” interpretation,
has to do with what I mentioned above: 1 Thessalonians 4
says that those who are “left” get to meet Jesus in the air.

-----------------

You want to be left behind. Why? Because those who are left
behind get to meet Jesus on His return to earth.

Again, when
you put 1 Thessalonians 4 together with Matthew 24 and
Luke 17, it becomes quite apparent that the good guys are
the ones left behind to meet Jesus.

------------------

And, if you need further proof of that, there’s a passage in
Matthew 13 that pretty much seals the deal.

Matthew
13:39-43, “…and the enemy who sowed them [the bad seed]
is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the
reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and
burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son
of man will send His angels and they will gather out of His
kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers(the bad guys), and throw them
into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their
teeth. Then the righteous(the ones that remain after the bad ones have been taken and dealt with) will shine like the sun in the
kingdom of their Father.”

------------------------------

So when Scripture says that “one is taken and one is left,” as
it does in Luke 17 and Matthew 24, it is not talking about the
Rapture, it is talking about the harvest at the close of the
age(which we have translated to the rapture ideology, as evident in these sermon and xtian films).

The ones who are taken, as it says in Matthew 13, are
the evildoers. The angels will take them and toss them
into the furnace of fire(somewhere else). So, the "rapture ideology" got it
wrong. The ones taken are not the good
guys, they are the evildoers. The ones who are left behind
are the ones who get to be caught up in the clouds to meet
Jesus in the air(to go nowhere actually) at His Second Coming, when He will bring all
of the angels and saints with Him and there will be a new
Heaven and a new earth.

Ii is only when the bad guys have been taken away unto judgement, then the good guys left behind will be caught up with the lord upon arrival. There's nothing like "the good guys will vanish or get caught up, then the bad guys remain to suffer whatever stuff with the destruction of the earth". That is a misnomer, which in itself nullifies the ideology of rapture, to say, it's not anywhere in the bible.



In other words, there will be no Rapture like the ones you have always believed. The rapture ideology teach the
opposite of what Scripture actually says.


Cc: Scholar8200, honourhim, solite

--------------------------

You both should educate urselves by visiting the link below which has various bible translations of the Luke 17:22-37 and Matthew 24:29-44 where the "rapture" ideology actually came from. 1thessalonians 4:16-18 only buttress the idea, emphasizing on who are "left behind" after the judgment of the bad guys have taken place. Toggle different translations as u please.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+17:22-37