Stupedinluv,

On my university analogy: It actually depicts the relationship between GOD, man and salvation to a great extent. Let the parents represent GOD, the child the sinner, and university education salvation. The parents tell the child that he cannot be successful in life without university education(just as GOD through various means continues to warn sinners that they will be lost if they do not receive salvation).

The child cannot sponsor himself(just as a sinner cannot save himself). Then the father asks the son "Do you want to go to the university? I can fully sponsor you." The father cannot force him to school(just as GOD cannot force salvation on anybody). The child can either say yes or no to his father.

If he says yes(the sinner accepts and believes Jesus Christ), the father begins to see to it that the child gets university education(GOD cleanses and accepts the sinner as his son, and begins to help him in his Christian race).

Just my own way of depicting it.

Stupedinluv:
Thanks so much. Pls can you quote more bible verses and chapters that support your stance (i have limited time now). I need to be sure of this.

Meanwhile, what do you mean by God is not partial but has chosen the world?

"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, AND CAUSE YOU to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you." - Eze 36:25 - 29

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" - 1 Tim 2:3-6

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach" - 1 Tim 4:9-11

"And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost" - Luke 19:9-10. All (the Whole World) were LOST in Adam, hence, how many did he save? He's not a respecter of persons, he's not partial, he doesn't do favoritism.

"For God has committed them all (the World) to disobedience, that He might have mercy on ALL (the World)." - Rom 11:32

"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die" - John 12:32-33

"For the death that He died, He died to sin once and he did it for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God" - Rom 6:10

"Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world" - John 4:42

"And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world" - 1 John 4:14

Christ is indeed the Savior of the world. How can He be the Savior of the world and yet, at the same time, not save the whole world? If he didn't save the world, then, he is bad at what he does.

There's more, but let's chill here for now. If you have more questions, feel free to ask.

DoctorAlien:
Stupedinluv,

On my university analogy: It actually depicts the relationship between GOD, man and salvation to a great extent. Let the parents represent GOD, the child the sinner, and university education salvation. The parents tell the child that he cannot be successful in life without university education(just as GOD through various means continues to warn sinners that they will be lost if they do not receive salvation).

The child cannot sponsor himself(just as a sinner cannot save himself). Then the father asks the son "Do you want to go to the university? I can fully sponsor you." The father cannot force him to school(just as GOD cannot force salvation on anybody). The child can either say yes or no to his father.

If he says yes(the sinner accepts and believes Jesus Christ), the father begins to see to it that the child gets university education(GOD cleanses and accepts the sinner as his son, and begins to help him in his Christian race).

Just my own way of depicting it.

Salvation is not (y)ours. It's Christ's. We are merely beneficiaries. Study Paul's sayings. There's no such thing as choosing to be saved.

The Potter doesn't ask the Pot whether or not to fix the crack.
The Vine doesn't ask the branch whether or not to give it life.
The Father doesn't ask the Child whether to Birth him or not.

Salvation is the expression of the Potter, Vine and Father... we are merely beneficiaries of God's salvation. You don't ask your dying infant child whether he wants to go to the Hospital or not. Unless, of course, you are not a Father. You don't ask your unconscious wife whether or not she wants blood passed into her, in order to regain consciousness, unless of course you're not a Husband.

All our analogies are very incomplete, because there's in fact no separation between God and man. Whatever God put himself through, man partook in, it's that simple.

Read the five points of Calvinism, specifically unconditional election and limited atonement. You'll understand better. God is sovereign. If you read Romans 9 and Romans 11 you'll understand what Paul was most concerned about. The same questions you ask. For one, freewill isn't a biblical term.
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-we-believe-about-the-five-points-of-calvinism

Stupedinluv:


Okay thanks. But there is something about your interpretion of salvation that does not sit well me. You might have honest intentions but you can still be wrong too.

I have to be sincere, this is not enough proof of free will. This is just like someone taking only what he wants to hear and smartly avoiding many others that are discomforting.

I use to think "whosoever" means just anybody to God and man but couldnt it be that only God knows those "whosoever" and since his apostles are oblivious of them, that term had to be use.. "whosoever"

If salvation was by man's will, why then should God take all the glory! Surely some flesh must glory in his presence. Or do you think its easy to choose God? God must share his glory with some sinners then.

I will come back later with all the chapters and verses that talk of salvation originating from God.

They are many

Stupedinluv:


Lol Are you saying people believe before they are born? Is believing not a spiritual fruit or something of such?

Hmmm.

PrOblem, pls which one comes first: Get birthed first and then believe or believe first and be born. Later sounds ridiculous now that i think of it.

LOOOL. Believing is a fruit of being Born jareee, my dear.

You're born into the family of Mr Adamu, no matter how much believing you do, you could never be Dangote's son. You are born into the species of Chickens, no matter how much believing you do, you could never be the son of a Lion.

It is only them that are Born that can Believe.

It is because we first are Born of God, that we have the power to believe that we are God's children. It is because you were first born of your father, that you had the power to believe and call him father.

It's that simple.

Pr0blem,

I have a question for you: those that will be lost, will it be that they couldn't have done anything about it?

Jesus saw an impotent man by the pool who had lain there for 38 solid years, yet Jesus asked him "do you want to be made whole?" Why do you think Jesus asked him such a question? Don't you know that the could've said "no"?

Think again.

DoctorAlien:
Pr0blem,

I have a question for you: those that will be lost, will it be that they couldn't do anything about it?

Jesus say an impotent man by the pool who had lain there for 38 solid years, yet Jesus asked him "do you want to be made whole?" Why do you think Jesus asked him such a question? Don't you know that the could've said "no"?

Think again.

You have obviously mistaken miracles for Salvation sir. Healing a lame man doesn't translate to making him CONFORMED in the Image of the SON, or ACCEPTED in the Beloved sir. You have obviously missed the point of Salvation if you use such as an example.

Now, let me tutor you using same statements Jesus made, "It is about a shepherd who leaves his flock of ninety-nine sheep in order to find the one which is lost." - It's the Parable of the lost coin, however Jesus says "it's about the SHEPHERD". He made the decision for the supposed lost sheep. The sheep didn't become a goat because it was lost.

Likewise, the parable of the lost "Son", and the parable of the lost "coin". There's something particularly similar in these three parables. ESSENCE! The Son was born a son, and always a Son even when lost. The Coin was always a coin even when lost. The sheep was born and always a sheep, even when lost.

The word "believe" or "faith" that is ascribe to man doesn't have power to cause any change. It only means "to be persuaded about a thing", "to be convinced".

You child, when you give birth to one, does not need to "believe" in you to have your DNA sir. That would be the most ridiculous thing ever. But as he grows, and he hears your words, and knows he bears your name, only then would he be "convinced" that he's your son, and he would have POWER (authority to act out as your son) to be your son.

It's honestly that simple.

Problem,

Those that will be lost, will it be that they couldn't have done anything about it?

The interaction between Jesus Christ and that impotent man represents GOD's relationship with sinners. Someone can choose to be lost. At that particular instance, the impotent man could have told Jesus "I don't want to be made whole", just as we hear some atheists today declare they don't want to go to Heaven.

GOD provided salvation for all in Jesus Christ, but John 3:16 says that you first have to believe. Believing in Jesus Christ is the first step towards salvation.

DoctorAlien:
Problem,

Those that will be lost, will it be that they couldn't have done anything about it?

The interaction between Jesus Christ and that impotent man represents GOD's relationship with sinners. Someone can choose to be lost. At that particular instance, the impotent man could have told Jesus "I don't want to be made whole", just as we hear some atheists today declare they don't want to go to Heaven.

GOD provided salvation for all in Jesus Christ, but John 3:16 says that you first have to believe. Believing in Jesus Christ is the first step towards salvation.

Again, I'm telling you your instance is not accurate to be used as any sort of relationship between God and sinners. Do you not understand Paul when he says "ALL MEN DIED", " WE WERE DEAD". What DEAD man has a choice abeeg? The better instance to perfectly explain God and sinners is Lazarus and Jesus. We are talking about "LIFE", not "healing". Healing is merely a subset of LIFE. He came to give LIFE to ALL them that were dead; this was how he found the LOST.

When Jesus got to the grave, he didn't ask Lazarus (meaning: Whom God helps/saves) if he wanted to be resurrected, that's a very ridiculous question. But he gave Lazarus LIFE.

I'm not sure you know what Sin and Sinner is as used in your Bible. It is DEATH, not a state of partial consciousness or impotence. It's a state of TOTAL and ABSOLUTE UNCONSCIOUSNESS. That's how you Bible put it by Paul's explanations.

Take for instance, your child was drowning in a pool, and it was apparent she was unconscious, would you wait to ask if she wanted to be saved? Really?! In fact, even if she was partially conscious, would you grant her the opportunity to play the "freewill" card? If yes is your answer, you're not worthy of being called Father. Reckon same scenario to Salvation, God and Sinners.

Pr0blem,

Those who will be lost, will it be that they couldn't have done anything about it?

DoctorAlien:
Pr0blem,

Those who will be lost, will it be that they couldn't have done anything about it?

Na wa o. You're still about "those who will be lost". LOOL

Where in scriptures did it say ANY WILL BE LOST?

And if any will be lost, we blame the One who was assigned to watch over them.

The idea that a thing can be "Lost" suggests they "Belong" to someone, and they are "Watched" by that said one.

So, if there's any such case of a "LOST", then the Integrity of their owner should be questioned.

Stupedinluv:
Very good verses and points you have.

But there is something about Romans 10:14 and 17, 20

vs 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Hearing ---> believing----> calling

Faith/Belief comes from hearing.

vs 17 so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

We believe to be saved but we cant believe if faith does not come on hearing the word. You see? so believe/faith is not a product of our will/choice but a product of God's word. God sends faith through his word to us to believe and be saved not decide whether to accept it or not. Abi prOblem?

vs 20 But Esias is very bold and said, i was found of them that sought me not, i was made unto them that ask me not

How can someone (a gentile) find someone he wasnt looking for. Kinda mysterious you dont think?

faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It's by hearing you're mold into who you are--teachings of the Father or teachings of this world. Now, the first level of coming to the Father is to hear. Now, God is saying in these last days, anyone who doesn't have bum bum to sit and hear is in trouble because the next level of faith (New Testament) comes by hearing. This isn't mountain business. How shall they hear without a Preacher? Of course, no one can see the Father for who He is except the Son and no one can see the Son, except Preachers who have heard Him (raised by His words). Now, men cannot hear Him who has destroyed principalities and powers except these Preachers who are tuned to this heavenly network of the Son comes to the scene.

How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? If these Preachers don't come and reveal the Son to men, some will not believe. Our brother, James said, do you believe there is one God? Even demons believe and they tremble. Those are spirits who believe there is one who sits on the THRONE. They once believed in His will before they fell into darkness, and influenced men to be trapped in same darkness like them. They know the truth because they have once felt/seen His glory but we haven't, that's why it's easy to trick men to refuse His invitation unto salvation.he Now, if these Preachers don't reveal the Son, people won't believe because they have not heard the words of Eternal Life (what can really convince them. These are words of wisdom that is not of this world. It's new even though it seems foolish to the world).

How then shall they call on him they have not believed? Of course, they can't begin to call on Him like the days of Seth when they have not heard the words of Truth. When they cannot see they have been lied to by an adversary. Men won't be able to call out His kingdom to earth. Now, about choice, we all choose to believe or reject. Heaven cannot force anyone. In fact, choose ye this day whom you shall serve; choose between life and death. But I will advise you to choose life says Moses. Some will see the tree of life (the words of truth), they will shy away from it like the first Adam did. They will reject it because of its responsibilities. Why? Because the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil speaks of greater things, better promises, far boastful than the tree of life (which is Christ). In fact, to get to Christ, you have to pass through the crucifix and endure the pain and shame. Some, most cannot. They will eventually go for the offer of this world. Now, this is where faith comes in. If I jump at the offer of either of those two trees (it's by choice), no one put AK 47 for my head to pick one. If I choose the tree of life, I chose it by faith. Why by faith, because it is the evidence of things not seen. That's talks of hope. The tree of life does not vouch for itself. It doesn't divulge all its promises at a go. To be candid, it looks unpromising. If I now jump at the offer, not knowing what will happen, heaven will now say, wow, Elohim, this one have faith o, then it will be accounted to me for righteousness. However, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil will infact, tell you, you will be like God, it looks promising, I will give you the world. Only reject the offer of the other tree. Bow down and worship me. As a matter of fact, it is not promising. You have nothing to lose. I accept it, meaning I have been moved by what I see. The TOL dwells in the realm of the unseen while TOGE dwells in the seen realm. It is in the now. You will have the inheritance quickly. You can't tell a man that his reward is in heaven and he won't look at you somehow. You dey mad? Where is heaven? Heaven wey you no even see. Kai, blessed are they who do not see, yet believe. If that man believes without seeing, then he 'stole' heaven's culture which is faith. Much word can't fill a basket. Hope you understand.

pr0blem:


Na wa o. You're still about "those who will be lost". LOOL

Where in scriptures did it say ANY WILL BE LOST?

And if any will be lost, we blame the One who was assigned to watch over them.

The idea that a thing can be "Lost" suggests they "Belong" to someone, and they are "Watched" by that said one.

So, if there's any such case of a "LOST", then the Integrity of their owner should be questioned.

So, according to you, nobody will go to hell or perish?

DoctorAlien:


So, according to you, nobody will go to hell or perish?

God will not condemn what he can fix.

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" - John 3:17

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me" - John 6:38

“You are judging carnally; I am judging no one.” - John 8:15

"As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world." - John 12:47

"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust." - John 5:45

The one who condemns is the one who cannot do the fixing, Moses and his Law. The one who doesn't condemn, is God, he makes sure to fix all them that needs fixing.

Stupedinluv:
I mean for the holyspirit to state that man's will or flesh isnt involved in his spiritual birth, doesnt that speak of foreknowing that some christians in future (which is now) will want to ascribe salvation to their willing power instead of God's thereby taking some of the glory of salvation?

The Spirit of God is wise and all knowing

I was moved by the Spirit to comment on this thread, and I chose to say one of two things to clear the air. Let's first unlearn some "woni-wope" (dem say dem say) news that can confuse and distort accuracy. Man's will wasn't involved in his spiritual birth?TRUE. Does that speak of foreknowing? NO. Was man's will of acceptance involved in switching on the ignition key? YES.

These needs explanations. Man's will was not involved in his spiritual birth or salvation. Why did I say yes? Because what heaven is saying has been misunderstood by some. Man's spiritual birth or salvation is a program designed by the Godhead. Angels' will are not involved, it was the Godhead who designed the software of salvation for mankind. Not an iota of man's efforts was involved to design that program because you can't fight and win against someone higher than you. These are host of wickedness who have sworn and taken oath that men shall not enter into this salvation of the Godhead. Angels' will are not involved because the fallen spirit they want to save man from even comes from among them, even the first world of the angelic. Now, I'm going somewhere. It will take someone with an higher eyes and power to see what Satan has done and provide solution to his formula of death. An "antivirus" or counter formula that's is extremely powerful. Now, if heaven say you weren't saved by your power, it means it wasn't flesh that designed the program of salvation that defeated Satan. It doesn't mean, as misinterpreted that the will (which is the acceptance) wasn't involved in collecting the gift of the salvation program to flush out the virus in our system. Those are two different things. Flesh or man's will can't think where it will have a solution to Satan's kind of death. Give it 1 million years, it can't break through. It can never. It will take the wisdom of Him who has been in eternity past because the angel who designed the software to kill man was also a guy of knowledge. Very smart. You now see why God needed to came via Jesus. Was man's will involved in sending Jesus. No, they weren't even there when the heavenly court gathered to make a pronouncement that man shall be saved. God found us first, before we found Him. However, was man's will of acceptance (choice) to believe in Jesus to save us from Satan's venom involved? YES. Now, the glory of salvation belongs to God, without which we wouldn't have known what is meant to be saved. Do we know the core meaning? NO. All we are just shouting is we want to be saved. It's like advertising a product for Oshodi market where crowd gather, everyone just they collect is own just to feel among. Rashidat come, ask, wetin dem dey do for there? Na one product dem they give for free o. The maker talk say if you follow the manual, use am effectively thrice daily everyday of your life, you go reach a stage where you no go die, you go live, live and live (eternal life) . In fact, you go escape government's prison (hell fire).

Rashidat can't claim glory for designing such a product, na the inventor. She did not contributed anything to that program of producing that drug (which came in the form of the Man, Jesus). Lest any man should boast. However, the will to collect that product which is acceptance is solely on her. Adverts of the drug can come to help convince her that no be fake.. Na original. But it's still her choice. Dear, that's what it means that man's will wasn't involved in salvation program, not the acceptance of it. So, will is involved in acceptance. No be us designed salvation. But na we accept am. God will still say thank you for believing in me. That's how humble He is. When you get the salvation sef. You won't be able to boast about the will of acceptance because what He did for you and went through to produce that drug and make it effective is greater than what you can ever do.

pr0blem:


God will not condemn what he can fix.

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" - John 3:17

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me" - John 6:38

“You are judging carnally; I am judging no one.” - John 8:15

"As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world." - John 12:47

"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust." - John 5:45

The one who condemns is the one who cannot do the fixing, Moses and his Law. The one who doesn't condemn, is God, he makes sure to fix all them that needs fixing.

Will anybody go to hell? Yes or No?

DoctorAlien:


Will anybody go to hell? Yes or No?

What is the purpose of going to Hell sir? If there is going to be a Hell, it has to be in God, for God is the omnipresent ALL that is in ALL. Where does Hell want to exist if God has occupied all the space. God doesn't need hell to do his job.

If all things are in God, and are made up of God, then sending some to Hell is like saying you cut off your finger and threw it in the trash. God has a WHOLE BODY.

There's no such thing as hell. It's not a place anyone goes to. If one person goes, all people go. If one person doesn't go, all people do not go. That's the order of Christ; God.

pr0blem:


What is the purpose of going to Hell sir? If there is going to be a Hell, it has to be in God, for God is the omnipresent ALL that is in ALL. Where does Hell want to exist if God has occupied all the space. God doesn't need hell to do his job.

If all things are in God, and are made up of God, then sending some to Hell is like saying you cut off your finger and threw it in the trash. God has a WHOLE BODY.

There's no such thing as hell. It's not a place anyone goes to. If one person goes, all people go. If one person doesn't go, all people do not go. That's the order of Christ; God.

So according to you, no one will perish? Does these verses agree?

"For GOD so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish..." John 3:16

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Pet. 3:7.

Pr0blem,

If nobody will perish/be destroyed, what do you have to say about these?

"But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psa. 37:38

"Woe to them, for they have strayed from me! Destruction is theirs, for they have rebelled against Me..." Hosea 7:13

"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power." 2 Thess. 1:9.

DoctorAlien:


So according to you, no one will perish? Does these verses agree?

"For GOD so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish..." John 3:16

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Pet. 3:7.

A better read for you to understand - Sir:

John 3:16-17

16 "For thus God loves the world (the universe; the ordered arrangement; the organized system [of life and society]; or: = all mankind), so that He gives His uniquely-born [with other MSS: the only-begotten] Son, (or, reading wste as an adverb: You see, in this manner God loves the sum total of created beings as being the Son: He gives the Only-begotten One; or: reading wV te: For you see, [it is] in this way [that] God loves the aggregate of humanity – even as it were His Son: He gives the uniquely-born One), to the end that all (or: everyone) – the one habitually believing, putting confidence and trusting into Him – would not lose or destroy himself, or cause himself to fall into ruin, but rather can continuously have (or: would habitually possess and hold) eonian life (age-durative life with qualities derived from the Age [of the Messiah]; living existence of and for the ages). [note 1): I have here given the “fact” sense of the aorist tense of the verbs “love” and “give” rather than the simple past tense. The statement by Jesus is a “timeless” fact of God; it signifies that the object of His love and His gift (that object being the cosmos, the universe, the world of men and created beings) is in view as a whole, and both the love and the gift are presented as fact, as one complete whole (punctiliar) which exists apart from any sense of time (i.e., coming from the realm or sphere of the “eternal,” or, “the Being of God;” note 2): Paul Tillich defines "love" (agape): the whole being's drive and movement toward reunion with another, to overcome existential separation; an ecstatic manifestation of the Spiritual Presence; acceptance of the object of love without restriction, in spite of the estranged, profanized and demonized state of the object;

17 "For God does not send forth His [other MSS: the] Son as an Emissary, or Representative, into the world (or: System; aggregate of humanity) to the end that He should continuously separate and make decisions about the world (or: would at some point sift and judge the System, or the aggregate of humanity), but to the contrary, to the end that the world would be delivered (or: that the System could be healed and made whole; that the ordered arrangement should be restored to health; that the aggregate of mankind may be saved – rescued and re-established in its original state): through Him!

Just maybe you should study a little Greek to see the explanation of things behind the English interpretations given you by your translations.

Then, when you get the picture of the most part of scriptures, you'll be able to divide rightly Christ from Culture.

This is the type of gospel men are preaching today that a sinner will not perish even if he continues in his sin.

If there was no problem with man continuing in sin, when then did Jesus come to die?

"He that, being often reproved, hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." Prov. 29:1.

"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Luke 13:3.

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption." 2 Pet. 2:12.

Tell the sinner to repent or else he will be destroyed!

DoctorAlien:
This is the type of gospel men are preaching today that a sinner will not perish even if he continues in his sin.

If there was no problem with man continuing in sin, when then did Jesus come to die?

"He that, being often reproved, hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." Prov. 29:1.

"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Luke 13:3.

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption." 2 Pet. 2:12.

Tell the sinner to repent or else he will be destroyed!

Brother, you think "reproof" in that passage is talking about Sin? Haha! Read it again sir. You need to do a lot of redefining.

You think Sin is the problem? Then you're living in the past Sir. You think "sin" and "no sin" is the purpose of life and creation as implied by your Holy Book? I'm sorry to say, then, you haven't gotten the point of the Book you hold in your hand. Maybe you should take a quick look at this scripture.

"Christ died once and faced the judgment of the entire human race! His second appearance has nothing to do with sin, but to reveal salvation for all to lay a hold of him." — Heb 9:28 ([See Heb 9:11]

He appeared as High Priest before the Throne of Justice once, with his own blood to atone for the sins of the whole world. In his resurrection he appeared as Savior of the world! Sin is no longer on the agenda for the Lamb of God has taken away the sin of the world! Jesus Christ fulfilled mankind’s destiny with death! [1 Cor 15:3-5, Rom 4:25, Acts 17:30, 31.])  Note: (Even in his first coming, he did not come to condemn the world. The Father judges no one for he has handed over all judgment to the son, who judged the world in righteousness when he took their chastisement in his own body. Now in his appearance in us, his body, his mission is to unveil the consequence of redemption through the Holy Spirit. This is not to be confused with the doctrine of his second coming. Many scriptures have been translated and interpreted with only a futuristic value and have consequently neutralized many, like the Jews, to diligently wait for the Messiah still to come. The Messiah has come once and for all as Messiah. Jesus appeared again after his resurrection and now his resurrection life in us as his body is the extension of his second appearance; God making his appeal to an already reconciled world to “be reconciled!” [Acts 3:26, 2 Cor 5:19, 20] The church continued to postpone the reality that God introduced in Christ. We are now already fully represented in his blamelessness! The second coming as doctrine is not in context of these chapters at all! [See 1 Pet 1:10-13] The Aramaic word, maranatha, means our Lord has come!)

pr0blem oo

Thank you for taking your time to explain some things to me.

But i have two questions:

1, Are you saying everyone will be saved? I thought God chose some people, even predestined them. Why choose when he would supposedly save everyone ?

2, Will some people be saved in the grave or after life since you say there is no hell?

TheSixthSense:
Read the five points of Calvinism, specifically unconditional election and limited atonement. You'll understand better. God is sovereign. If you read Romans 9 and Romans 11 you'll understand what Paul was most concerned about. The same questions you ask. For one, freewill isn't a biblical term.
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-we-believe-about-the-five-points-of-calvinism

Which one is calvinism again We are talking Christ you are talking calf.

Anyway thanks sha

Stupedinluv:
prOblem oo

Thank you for taking your time to explain some things to me.

But i have two questions:

1, Are you saying everyone will be saved? I thought God chose some people, even predestined them. Why choose when he would supposedly save everyone ?

2, Will some people be saved in the grave or after life since you say there is no hell?

LOL. Any time dear, I sent you a mail btw. Plus, my moniker is pr(number zero)blem, not pr(letter O)blem. This error makes me miss your mentions.

1. See, a lot more is behind the idea of "salvation" than the concept of whether a few people are selected for heaven or hell. Consider this, if God should choose some people, it is whose fault the others that weren't chosen the fate they have? If God should choose some people before the even beginning the order of the world, why didn't he just work with those number of chosen people, and save himself the stress of the unneeded? If God chooses half of people A for destination B, ultimately it can be said that he chose the other half of people A for destination C (if there are only two destinations B and C).

The concept of Grace is not Grace for some, it is Grace for ALL. This is Grace:
- "who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous." - Rom 4:25
- "Clearly, Christ's love guides us. We are convinced of the fact that one man has died for all people. Therefore, all people have died." - 2 Cor 5:14
- "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved" - Eph 2:5.
- "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." - Col 2:12
- "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" - Eph 2:6
- "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" - Titus 3:7

By the God maths: it's ALL or NONE. He didn't die for a chosen people, so the said verses cannot and do not imply He left some out of this operation called Grace - this has put everybody on equal grounds. So, when God says he can and he would, he wasn't joking. He's titled God the Savior of all because he couldn't fail at what he knows to do best.

2. Interesting question, it is often said, taught or thought that "death" is the end. But have you ever considered this statement made by Paul:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power... And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:24, 28

This is the true END, when the Son returns all the father has given, that God should be all and in all. An end suggests the conclusion of an act/plan.

Jesus also once made this statement "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice" - John 5:28.

Do you think GOD has any limits at all?

In fact, do you remember when Christ told John "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." - Rev 1:18

See, I don't know much about an afterlife, neither have I died, but it is obvious from the writings of you Holy Book that "death" isn't the end; for in fact, death has it's appointed end. LOL

pr0blem:


LOL. Any time dear, I sent you a mail btw. Plus, my moniker is pr(number zero)blem, not pr(letter O)blem. This error makes me miss your mentions.

1. See, a lot more is behind the idea of "salvation" than the concept of whether a few people are selected for heaven or hell. Consider this, if God should choose some people, it is whose fault the others that weren't chosen the fate they have? If God should choose some people before the even beginning the order of the world, why didn't he just work with those number of chosen people, and save himself the stress of the unneeded? If God chooses half of people A for destination B, ultimately it can be said that he chose the other half of people A for destination C (if there are only two destinations B and C).

The concept of Grace is not Grace for some, it is Grace for ALL. This is Grace:
- "who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous." - Rom 4:25
- "Clearly, Christ's love guides us. We are convinced of the fact that one man has died for all people. Therefore, all people have died." - 2 Cor 5:14
- "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved" - Eph 2:5.
- "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." - Col 2:12
- "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" - Eph 2:6
- "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" - Titus 3:7

By the God maths: it's ALL or NONE. He didn't die for a chosen people, so the said verses cannot and do not imply He left some out of this operation called Grace - this has put everybody on equal grounds. So, when God says he can and he would, he wasn't joking. He's titled God the Savior of all because he couldn't fail at what he knows to do best.

2. Interesting question, it is often said, taught or thought that "death" is the end. But have you ever considered this statement made by Paul:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power... And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:24, 28

This is the true END, when the Son returns all the father has given, that God should be all and in all. An end suggests the conclusion of an act/plan.

Jesus also once made this statement "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice" - John 5:28.

Do you think GOD has any limits at all?

In fact, do you remember when Christ told John "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." - Rev 1:18

See, I don't know much about an afterlife, neither have I died, but it is obvious from the writings of you Holy Book that "death" isn't the end; for in fact, death has it's appointed end. LOL

So sorry i have been very busy.
I have read all you have said. Its sounds sensible but will do more reading in my free time

Forgive my not-answering-pm principle.

Weeew pr0blem not PrOblem, duly noted.