Hello to all,
Galatians 5:22-23 states, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,longsuffering, gentleness, goodnesd, faith
Meekness, temperance against such there is no law."
Perhaps we may attempting to convince Mr. NinjaX in the wrong spirit. I understand the zeal & desire to defend God & His word to those that may sincerely be searching for truth, although the delivery may be borderline offensive. As Christians whose life should encompass the above scripture, we need to be very careful about trying to convince those that may not be convicted yet. Actions should set a Christian apart from others. Then..& maybe then, the person may be open to knowing who God is. It is our job to "plant" & the seed and the Holy Spirit's job to "water

Sorry folks,
I accidentally submitted my post before finishing it.
It is the Holy Spirit's job to "water" the seed. Be patient & don't resort to tactics that cause your flesh to behave in a manner opposite of what you profess.
Blessings

MsLady39:
Hello to all,
Galatians 5:22-23 states, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,longsuffering, gentleness, goodnesd, faith
Meekness, temperance against such there is no law."
Perhaps we may attempting to convince Mr. NinjaX in the wrong spirit. I understand the zeal & desire to defend God & His word to those that may sincerely be searching for truth, although the delivery may be borderline offensive. As Christians whose life should encompass the above scripture, we need to be very careful about trying to convince those that may not be convicted yet. Actions should set a Christian apart from others. Then..& maybe then, the person may be open to knowing who God is. It is our job to "plant" & the seed and the Holy Spirit's job to "water

Good.

I have read the verse you quoted, and I loved it because it can be readily applied in dealing with situations life throws at us.

I'd be very glad if the holy spirit (God) makes himself known to me and clearly explains why he lets calamities befall us, and more.

A question for you: do you trust your class tutor so much that you would believe whatever he teaches you in order to do well at exams?

MsLady39:
Sorry folks,
I accidentally submitted my post before finishing it.
It is the Holy Spirit's job to "water" the seed Be patient & don't resort to tactics that cause your flesh to behave in a manner opposite of what you profess.
Blessings

This strongly suggests predestination. Does it mean a person cannot decide to repent? If yes, why bother preaching?

Hi Mr.NinjaX,
That's a good question. I'm out of school, but when I was in school, I had a tutor for some upper level math course. I trusted him to a certain extent.(seeing that he was human)..I had faith simply because he was an expert in something I needed help with. I believed he could help me. I also did my part in practising & studying.
With God, while I have never seen Him, I have to have some measure of faith, first of all, that even exists (Hebrews 11:6). I learn about Him through His word, through prayer etc. Questions I may have, I can express to Him through prayer & then allow the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth in His Word (Isaiah 1:18). So yes...I do trust God fully (Proverbs 3:5,6). Sometimes I really get fearful & anxious...but God knows that. He is after all the Creator of this universe

Ranchhoddas:
This strongly suggests predestination. Does it mean a person cannot decide to repent? If yes, why bother preaching?

Hi,
What I mean is the Holy Spirit begins working with a person who's shown interest in knowing more about God, His existence, one's purpose etc. Every human being has "free-will." No one's destiny is pre-determined. Predestination would take away the whole concept of "choice." People can choose to believe or not believe, but it's not predestined.

MsLady39:




Hi,
What I mean is the Holy Spirit begins working with a person who's shown interest in knowing more about God, His existence, one's purpose etc. Every human being has "free-will." No one's destiny is pre-determined. Predestination would take away the whole concept of "choice." People can choose to believe or not believe, but it's not predestined.

Okay. But how then do you account for people who become converted without showing any interest. Eg Apostle Paul.

Ranchhoddas:
Okay. But how then do you account for people who become converted without showing any interest. Eg Apostle Paul.

Well the apostle Paul was what you could term a Pharisee (meaning he had training to the highest echelon in Biblical matters). So it can't be said that he had no interest in God. When he was named Saul..and was persecuting Christians left & right, he was doing so under the banner of ignorance. He didn't really know God..he only knew what he was trained. Clearly though, there was a desire to serve God (which God knew) & began working with that. Only God knew the right time. Once Saul was enlightened by God- & then became Paul, he became a champion of God.

Ranchhoddas:
Okay. But how then do you account for people who become converted without showing any interest. Eg Apostle Paul.

Also let me remind folks that no one gets converted without having a desire somewhere in his/her heart. The desire may not be fully developed or it may be struggling, but it's there in those who eventually choose Christ. God is not a God of force. He doesn't take away one's right to choose.

MsLady39:


Also let me remind folks that no one gets converted without having a desire somewhere in his/her heart. The desire may not be fully developed or it may be struggling, but it's there in those who eventually choose Christ. God is not a God of force. He doesn't take away one's right to choose.

Okay. Sounds legit.

MsLady39:


Also let me remind folks that no one gets converted without having a desire somewhere in his/her heart. The desire may not be fully developed or it may be struggling, but it's there in those who eventually choose Christ. God is not a God of force. He doesn't take away one's right to choose.

I disagree, there are many instances in the bible that Yahweh took away people's right to chose

I don't want this to delve into a derailing so maybe I'll take you up on it when this is brought up another time

MsLady39:
Hi Mr.Ninja.X,
That's a good question. I'm out of school, but when I was in school, I had a tutor for some upper level math course. I trusted him to a certain extent.(seeing that he was human)..I had faith simply because he was an expert in something I needed help with. I believed he could help me. I also did my part in practising & studying.


With God, while I have never seen Him, I have to have some measure of faith, first of all, that even exists (Hebrews 11:6). I learn about Him through His word, through prayer etc. Questions I may have, I can express to Him through prayer & then allow the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth in His Word (Isaiah 1:18). So yes...I do trust God fully (Proverbs 3:5,6). Sometimes I really get fearful & anxious...but God knows that. He is after all the Creator of this universe

Nice. You see, teachers are one of the people I respect most in the society. They are life changers. The future of the youths rests on their shoulders, and by extension the future of the world. It's the knowledge and qualities these teachers imbible in them that they would use to run the affairs of tomorrow. Thus the importance of teachers cannot be overemphasized.

You trust your teachers so much that you are confident in the knowledge they transfer to you. Teachers (genuine ones) don't discriminate when awarding marks, they rate you according to what your exam sheets shows.
Anywhere you may find yourself, that knowledge you trust would be your guide. It won't lie. As your teacher did not die. It would not depart you in trying times.

But God, who is supposed to be greater than teachers, whom men trust with their lives, does not care about our cause. He discriminates against his own children. He laid plans for the dispute that spread bad blood between Esau and Jacob even before their birth. Evil people thrive. Bad people die. Despite how much we pray, it's more of ugliness we get. God does not follow his own teachings in the bible, but insteads shifts the blame to the devil for convenience. He said our world is unimportant. If so, why did he create us then?

You said you have not seen God, but you believe in him, why?

Would you believe a movie actor has excellent acting skills just because people, books say so, but you haven't witnessed for yourself any of his works? Would you buy his movies based on hearsay? Would you allow such person act in your movie as a producer?

Can you give me a genuine reason to trust God... I really want to, but I can't help it no matter how hard I try to force myself.

hopefulLandlord:


I disagree, there are many instances in the bible that Yahweh took away people's right to chose

I don't want this to delve into a derailing so maybe I'll take you up on it when this is brought up another time

Hi,
If or when you have time, please provide examples of what you stated. It's possible that I may have missed something somewhere..(however I truly in my heart don't think that I have). Looking forward to revisiting your statement.

MsLady39:



Hi,
If or when you have time, please provide examples of what you stated. It's possible that I may have missed something somewhere..(however I truly in my heart don't think that I have). Looking forward to revisiting your statement.

I don't want the conversation to swerve to that end because it might end up being the main conversation but you have to agree with me that Pharaoh for instance had his choice taken away by Yahweh hardening his heart till he eventually killed all firstborn sons and even made him pursue the Israelites

you can agree with me that at many points Pharaoh wanted to turn back and do good but Yahweh took away his ability to carry out his choice

you might say Pharaoh was doomed already by god for his past wrongdoings but the question is "at what point do you cross the sin Rubicon?"

could Yahweh be hardening some people's heart?

Mr. Ninja X,
Sorry for the late reply....first of all, I can truly appreciate your honesty & transparency. I admire that in folks.
All types of sufferering in this world is due to sin..not God. Do you know something? God loves you so much that He made a sacrifice by sending His son to die on the cross so that He could spend eternity with you Mr. Ninja.
I know it's hard to believe but you have to have a measure of faith that He did that and that He will return soon to get His children.
You must have faith. What you don't understand you need to pour out your heart to God..and He will answer you. He's waiting for you Mr. Ninja...He is inviting you to try Him...He loves you.
By the way, I appreciate your comment on
teachers. My late mother was one and so was I for a few years....

Also Mr. Ninja,
Do you know that the best advertising is "by word of mouth"? Sometimes it's what people say about someone or something that can help build or tear down something.
Oftentimes depending on who is making the statement, I am more prone to be open to them or be swayed to go in a particular direction.
If I want to try some new restaurant and I hear good reviews (depending on the person) I may try it.
Or I may just take a step of faith and try the
restaurant because there's something there
is something there that might interest me. However, I won't know unless I try.
I wasn't always living the life of a Christian. I had to grow and take time to develop a relationship with Christ. When I lost my mother 14 years ago--when I was 25. I was devastated. Wouldn't that have been a good time to give up on God?
But I couldn't..in my heart I questioned but I couldn't turn my back on God. We may not get the answers for every tragedy that occurs, but rest assured, God knows and He's there. Death, disease, hunger, wars etc. are all a result of sin. There's a bigger picture here & one day soon it will all be made plain.
Mr. Ninja..I can only invite you to trust God. You won't regret it.

Hi Hopefullandlord,
Ok..I respect that you don't want to turn this conversation into the main one. However, I'm going to have to disagree with your statement. Pharoah was given 7 chances to let the Israelites go. Beginning in Exodus 7:14, "And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharoah's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go."
So given that people are given "free will" & Pharoah who didn't know the True God & wanted to keep the Israelites as slaves in Egypt, it finally was said that God hardened his heart. It wasn't until the last plague where the first born males were slain (which included Pharoah's son) did he finally let the Israelites go (Exodus 12:29). Pharoah, however, never repented of his deeds nor did he humble himself before
God. Pharoah made the choice to not surrender before God, so his mind was set (Exodus Chapter 14).

Hi again,
HopefulLandlord I made a mistake. Pharoah was given "10" chances to let the Israelites go...not "7". There were 10 plagues. I was thinki about the final days of Earth's history where "7" plagues will fall (Book of Revelation). Please forgive my mistake.

MsLady39

Your post misses a particular verse that changes everything, it appeared Yahweh had already planned everything from scratch

consider a verse in exodus that appeared much earlier than even the first plague below:

Exodus 4:21 (NIV)
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

as we can see here, god had already made up his mind and Pharaoh had next to no choice in the matter

now let's try to strike a meaningful balance it with the first verse you used in your quote

Exodus 7:14, "And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharoah's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go."

while Yahweh just stated that "Pharaoh's heart is hardened" looking at the exodus 4:21 one can come to the conclusion that it was god that was hardening Pharaoh's heart! which means his "freewill" and ability to turn away from maltreating the Israelites had been taken away by god

MsLady39

Thanks. I'm only trying to be as honest as possible because I'm really striving to know.

Not at all. You can take your time and reply whenever it's convenient for you. And dont reply if you don't feel inclined to.

Your stance was that sin brought about all the sufferings plaguing mankind.

However when God created the world, his original purpose was for us to live happily in a perfect world forever.... Until the invasion of the devil.

Now, one thing I'm not quite okay with is that, the devil had a dispute with God and he was driven down to earth.

So did God not realise that the devil could turn us against him, since the devil also took some angels from heaven along to our world?

Why do we have to share in the blame of the devil?

Thanks for your concluding statement. And about your mum, I'm sorry about that. Mums are precious gems. And yes, I was a teacher myself too, but only for 6 months. I just love teaching. Impacting in others feels with a kind of satisfaction. It's really a nice profession.
It commands a lot of respect.

Now, you as a teacher has once assumed the position of leadership. And based on your past experience, I believe you understand, to a certain degree, everything about dealing with people.

Now, what action did you take whenever a student did something you feel is bad? Or how best can a troublesome student be handled?

- Would you punish only him to show that you really are unbiased and believe in a system of fair judgement/equity?

- Or would you punish everybody altogether, including students whom got newly enrolled in your class, just to strike general fear in their minds?

I'm sure you'd punish only the defaulter. You wouldn't want innocent people to suffer for crimes they hand no involvement in. That would strengthen your students' trust in you all the more, because you have shown them how fair you could be. And that you love them equally.

But why can't God do same?

Even if we are to excuse Adam and Eve from the picture, what about unborn kids? Why do they have to bear the brunt of the foolishness of their ancestors? So would dead unborn kids go to hell just because they were tainted with the sins of their parents?

And Is that not against conscience? Does God really love us? Or it's we whom are not capable of reconciling to God's kind of love?

MsLady39

Yes, I do understand that. Companies give us a glimpse of services they could render through advertisement by persuading with all sorts of techniques; even appealing to our sentiments.

But you see, the scenario I described and the one you gave cannot compare to the ones concerned with lives. Life is very precious. To me, it's the most valuable treasure on earth. More precious than silver and Gold. No commodity can be used to exchange for life. Life is also delicate. A little mistake on our part could be fatal.

The very idea that God is omniscient defeats the entire existence of man.

You know, from a philosophical point, I have always viewed the world through the lens of a movie ever since I was a kid.

Everything happening here had already been predestined by God. Just like the scripts of movies.
This verily explains why our prayers are not answered. And while the world is rank with so much imperfections.

Our world is a movie. God is the writer and producer of that movie. We the humans are the actors and actresses, or characters on stage.
We could only but act our assigned role and fade off into nothingness. But in this case, we are not to choose the type of character we want to play.

I'd classify our world as a trilogical movie. The first movie began when God first created the world, and then Adam and eve. The movie was a fantasy too unrealistic. It met a lot of negative criticism. So God resolved to make a Sequel.

The second movie began; God added another character (the devil) and changed the theme, and also enlarged the scope. People so loved this movie. It contained better action scenes unlike its predecessor. But as time went on, the movie got stale. People craved for something new. They wanted a twist.

At that time, at that moment; there and then, a new script for an upcoming movie which is the sequel to the last was written. It hit the theatre screens with a bang. God introduced a new protagonist, a hero more powerful than the previous ones to the movie. It's this protagonist (Jesus) that would undo the damages wrecked by the villain in the first movie (when he died on the cross).

We are currently in the third part of that blockbuster movie titled God Vs Devil: Heaven or Hell?

Now, we no longer like the movie. We have been mounting pressure on the producer/writer to make another movie, but he doesn't want to.
He still wants the last movie to continue airing in theatres.

Praying to God to end all sufferings is much the same way. The analogy I gave above emboldens the futility of our prayers.

Unless perharps, God decides to make more movies, our world would remain completely the way it is.

If and when he ever makes a fourth movie, that movie would be the rapture time and the last in the series. Or maybe more will come.

God has got quite a taste in movies. I admire that. He is my model in that regard. I love good movies myself.

In a nutshell miss, prayers, belief, or trust in God is what it is - fruitless. That's what the end of all things, the end of the world is - fruitless.