At secluded times - such period when inspiration finds me, this question has bugged me continuously. Why should I be thrown into a battle of consequential choice, paying a price for heaven or hell?

Of course, I got the freedom of choice - but it seems more like I have no choice in the first place or that the liberty of choosing is but false. I never asked to be created. Why wasn't I given the choice of choosing the opportunity to choose or not i.e. choosing to be created or not to be.

How's it fair to be created and thrown into a war of decision making that predates my existence without anyone asking if I wanted a part of it or not? perhaps, there's a third unknown choice which gives a chance to skip eternity to oblivion after death.

There's got to be more to eternity than deeds, choices and religion

Nop!!!
There aint nothing else, either do gud & go to heaven or do bad and goto hell, their aint no grey lines or Third choice.

ofcourse you can choose to be an atheist and wallow in ur scientific thoeries.....in d end if you don't change, na hell be ur final aboard

your fault alone! Salvation is an individual thing,likewise heavenly race! No one is going to take your blames for you not even our dear parents or relatives.. So its solely your fault if you go to hell

Michelle55:
your fault alone! Salvation is an individual thing,likewise heavenly race! No one is going to take your blames for you not even our dear parents or relatives.. So its solely your fault if you go to hell

Not that I don't agree with you but that isn't.... life is said not be fair but God is. Hence, there's something yet unlearned. You and I were created by God only to be brought into this world and placed on a temporary neutral position to choose the same Being that created us in the first place.

gwine0047:


Not that I don't agree with you but that isn't.... life is said not be fair but God is. Hence, there's something yet unlearned. You and I were created by God only to be brought into this world and placed on a temporary neutral position to choose the same Being that created us in the first place.

so what exactly are you driving at if i may ask please?

gwine0047:
At secluded times - such period when inspiration finds me, this question has bugged me continuously. Why should I be thrown into a battle of consequential choice, paying a price for heaven or hell?

Of course, I got the freedom of choice - but it seems more like I have no choice in the first place or that the liberty of choosing is but false. I never asked to be created. Why wasn't I given the choice of choosing the opportunity to choose or not i.e. choosing to be created or not to be.

How's it fair to be created and thrown into a war of decision making that predates my existence without anyone asking if I wanted a part of it or not? perhaps, there's a third unknown choice which gives a chance to skip eternity to oblivion after death.

There's got to be more to eternity than deeds, choices and religion

It is so deep what you just wrote.

People may not understand, but it is really deep. You will find your way soon... Hopefully.

Greetings.

Michelle55:
so what exactly are you driving at if i may ask please?

Life has gotta be a great mystery cause it's just so complicated.

At the end, there'll only be clarity on whether we really freely made the choice or the freedom of choice was an illusion.

Michelle55:
your fault alone! Salvation is an individual thing,likewise heavenly race! No one is going to take your blames for you not even our dear parents or relatives.. So its solely your fault if you go to hell

how is it supposed to be ones fault? I think the guy in charge of creating at fault

Man is born into trouble But this is the victory that overcome the world even your Faith.
Op have faith in God and all will be well

Whose fault is it that Jack died in the movie Titanic?

lastmessenger:
Man is born into trouble But this is the victory that overcome the world even your Faith.
Op have faith in God and all will be well

who's responsible for the trouble?

the Christian version of god is a joke

lastmessenger:
Man is born into trouble But this is the victory that overcome the world even your Faith.
Op have faith in God and all will be well

I do have faith. in fact, it's the only thing I could surrender as I couldn't make sense out of the situation.
Faith makes it easier to accept the existence of incomprehension or lack of knowledge which can be said to be hidden or yet to be revealed. Faith makes it all fair again. I got faith that I'll end up in a good place after death and get the chance to ask God some questions.

NinjaX:
Whose fault is it that Jack died in the movie Titanic?

The mind that found his death to be more touching and sympathetic to the movie's patronizers than he getting to live happily ever after with his love

hopefulLandlord:


who's responsible for the trouble?

the Christian version of god is a joke

If so, every other versions fall lesser than a joke. A supreme being exists, too little evidence pointing to the contrary

gwine0047:


If so, every other versions fall lesser than a joke. A supreme being exists, too little evidence pointing to the contrary

this is assumption, "Supreme being"? and you're sure Yahweh is that being?

you know this from a book written by caveman who thought the earth had a firmament, the earth is flat and the sun rotates round the earth?

a book that contains totally different creation stories in its first two chapters?

a book where a virgin gave birth to god that eventually got killed by three nails?

a book where that supreme being killed all Egyptian firstborn sons in order to free his " "Chosen" people from slavery then gave his "Chosen" instructions on how to make their slaves and even told them how to make it permanent?

hopefulLandlord:


this is assumption, "Supreme being"? and you're sure Yahweh is that being?

you know this from a book written by caveman who thought the earth had a firmament, the earth is flat and the sun rotates round the earth?

a book that contains totally different creation stories in its first two chapters?

a book where a virgin gave birth to god that eventually got killed by three nails?

a book where that supreme being killed all Egyptian firstborn sons in order to free his " "Chosen" people from slavery then gave his "Chosen" instructions on how to make their slaves and even told them how to make it permanent?

I didn't know all these from a book. Look around the world where we live, planets , milky way and sorts; what the you see? You see constructs too perfect to be formed from rocks collision and amalgamation as purported by scientists. Hence, the support of the fact that there's an intelligent being who to us is supreme.

Do you think it's a coincidence that almost all men tend to seek luck , good fortunes and security for loved ones from an unseen force or from someone that can't be seen but believed to be there. Who taught men what's good and what's not?

gwine0047:


I didn't know all these from a book. Look around the world where we live, planets , milky way and sorts; what the you see?

planets are proof of planets, milky way proves milky way

those things prove god same way man proves insect

You see constructs too perfect to be formed from rocks collision and amalgamation as purported by scientists.

this is strawman, I've not in any way argued for the big bang

Hence, the support of the fact that there's an intelligent being who to us is supreme.

how does this prove Yahweh?

do you know there are many creation stories?

oduduwa came down from heaven with chains and a chicken that has many legs

Mbombo created the world by vomiting

just to name 2

these two creation stories have as much proof as Yahweh's own

all gods are just used to fill gaps in our ignorance and you're proving that to be true

Do you think it's a coincidence that almost all men tend to seek luck , good fortunes and security for loved ones from an unseen force or from someone that can't be seen but believed to be there.

this doesn't prove any god it could be a case of mass delusion by those people for all we know

Who taught men what's good and what's not?

man did, man created morals, it varies from society to society, objective morality doesn't exist

NinjaX:
Whose fault is it that Jack died in the movie Titanic?

the movie director and producer

gwine0047:


The mind that found his death to be more touching and sympathetic to the movie's patronizers than he getting to live happily ever after with his love

Newhonourable:


the movie director and producer

Both of you are right. Now you have your answer Op.

The essence of freewill negates responsibility on a third party. If you put your hand in fire and get burnt, is it God's fault? If you refuse to read for your exams and fail, it is God's fault that you are so lazy to read while others are making distinctions in flying colours.

You wear a earpiece listening to music in full blast while crossing a very busy express way but get knocked down and die because you failed to hear the repeated warning horn from a vehicle coming your direction in full speed. Who is to blame in all this, God or your foolishness?

If you will blame God for bringing you to existence then you should also blame God for living a foolish existence that results in your going to hell fire...as if hell is the only place where you will find people who have ever died....

Being found with life it is your choice how you live your life....God does not make that choice for you then why blame Him for your existence? How can the creation blame the Creator for its existence? You guys are really funny.

[quote author=hopefulLandlord post=52540549]

planets are proof of planets, milky way proves milky way


I fail to concur. Even scientists believe things don't just appear - it's always as a consequence of another thing ( reaction, collision, degradation etc ) The mystery to them has always been how things came to be in the first place. Since things can't just come to be by themselves, all logics support these things to be a complex work of someone very intelligence and extraordinary


Am not, for now trying to prove Yahweh but the existence of a supreme being



You say am ignorant. From experience, I've come to know that it's braver to trust in god (whichever one) than to trust in none. You don't believe in God but you believe in the order of GOOD and BAD, RIGHT and WRONG you believe in MORALS. Tell me how far those are from a god.





Delusion? Mass or minute, am not talking about ordinary people born into doctrines or sets of church goers and preachers. I am
talking about ATHEISTS like you who blurt out the phrases "we make our own luck" "god is biggest joke ever" "there's no such thing as good luck or bad".....
But when shit is about to happen maybe not to them but to their loved ones, a TRUE feel arises from and for once their pride fail and they say a word of PRAYER to the god (s) they don't believe exist




Though, moral varies. it follows a particular natural trend

If you believe in hell you, it means you are already in it.

ifenes:
If you believe in hell you, it means you are already in it.

And you are my room buddy

skeendyke:
The essence of freewill negates responsibility on a third party. If you put your hand in fire and get burnt, is it God's fault? If you refuse to read for your exams and fail, it is God's fault that you are so lazy to read while others are making distinctions in flying colours.

You wear a earpiece listening to music in full blast while crossing a very busy express way but get knocked down and die because you failed to hear the repeated warning horn from a vehicle coming your direction in full speed. Who is to blame in all this, God or your foolishness?

If you will blame God for bringing you to existence then you should also blame God for living a foolish existence that results in your going to hell fire...as if hell is the only place where you will find people who have ever died....

Being found with life it is your choice how you live your life....God does not make that choice for you then why blame Him for your existence? How can the creation blame the Creator for its existence? You guys are really funny.

I think you are the funny one here. Since when hasn't the Creature blame the Creator?
It happens every time. That's by the way.
Those instances you gave have series of choice prior to them. Even at that instant, there are plenty of choices one could have made which may not culminate into your proposed results.

My question is why should one suffer as a result of a decision or indecision in a situation he didn't choose to be?

@Gwine... Lets take it another way to make you understand better... I as a Muslim believe in the Holy Qur'an, What makes me believe all that were contained in it? yes, I wasn't there when Angel Jubril was passing over the message from God[The Holy Qur'an] unto Prophet Muhammad{S.A.W} my first reason to believe all that is in it is even beyond the understanding of Prophet Muhd, As it written there what is in the sky before the scientist appearing in today's world are proving what it contains to be true, Muhammad is said to be uneducated that can not read nor write using this to emphasize the point that the Qur'an is none of his scheme. I do not want to go any further without instances.

The Almighty said: (* Romans have been defeated in the lowest land) Romans 2-3:



- The minimum land: spot lower on the surface of the earth and have overcome the Romans in Palestine near the Dead Sea, and when he discussed this verse with the geologist famous (Palmer) in the international scientific conference held in Riyadh in 1979 denied this immediately and announced to the world that there many places on the Earth's surface is lower asked scientists to make sure of his information, and to review the geographical Mkttanh surprised the world (Palmer) map of maps showing topography of Palestine and has been traced by the thick arrow points to the Dead Sea area and has written at its peak (the lowest spot on Earth's surface) were perplexed Professor and declared his admiration and appreciation, and stressed that this Quran must be the word of God.

The Almighty said: (Ikhalqkm in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation of the creature in the darkness of three meaning) 6:



- It was not Mohammed a doctor, and he could not dissect a pregnant woman, and did not receive lessons in Anatomy and Embryology, and even did this science known before the nineteenth century, the meaning of the verse is quite clear Modern science has proven that there are three membranes surrounding the fetus These are:

- First: the membranes that surround the conjoined fetus is composed of the membrane that makes up the lining of the uterus and placental membrane and membrane TB and these three membranes form the darkness first sticking together.

- Second: the wall of the womb and the second is the darkness. Third: the abdominal wall and the third is the darkness. Where to Muhammad Muhammad, peace in this medical information

The Almighty said: (and I have created man from a quintessence of clay * Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed * then created sperm into a clot the clot into bones and clothed the bones with flesh, then we produced it another best of creators) believers, 11-13,

And the Almighty said: (O people, if you are in doubt of the expedition then we have created you from dust, then from a sperm and then from a clot, then from the reconstructed embryo, and unformed to show you) Hajj 5:

- From the previous verses it is clear that the creation of man is in phases as follows:

1 - Soil: The evidence for that, and that all the mineral elements and organic composition and the human body found in soil and mud and the second guide that will become dust after his death no different from the soil in anything.

2 - sperm: and that is not honoring the wall of the egg and the resulting fertilized egg (sperm gamete), which incite divisions phones that make sperm gametes grow and multiply so that the embryo of an integrated, as He says: (Verily We created man from a sperm gametes) Rights 2.

3 - leech: After the cell divisions that occur in the fertilized egg shaped cluster of cells similar in form micro-berry fruit (clot) which is characterized by its ability to hung on the wall of the uterus to draw the necessary food from the blood vessels in it.

4 - embryo: Taatkhalq cells of the embryo to give the limb buds and the members and organs of the body different is composed if cells reconstructed the membranes surrounding Balamadgp (membrane placental as well as villi that will become the salvation of later), they cells unformed, and under study microscopic indicate that the fetus at the stage of the embryo seems like a piece of meat or chewed gum and teeth and marked Odharas Madgp.

Not confirm this verse: (from the embryo, synthetic and non-synthetic) Was Muhammad may Allah bless him and grant him peace Device (ECHO) has defined through this fact?!

5 - The advent of bone: scientifically proven that the bones begin to appear at the end of the embryo stage and this coincides with the order in which said verse (Fajlguena lump bones).

6 - Apparel bone meat: I have proved that modern embryology muscle (meat) to be formed, the bones a few weeks, and clothing associated muscle acidifies the skin of the fetus and this fully agrees with him: (and clothed the bones with flesh).

When supervised by the seventh week of pregnancy, stages of completion are creating the fetus has ended and became a form akin to unborn baby and needs some time to grow and complete its growth and its length and weight and take a question that has known.

And now: Is it possible for Mohammed Mohammed may Allah bless him and grant him peace to make this medical information and had lived in an era where there is ignorance and backwardness

I've looked these verses of the great conference miracle medical VII of the Koran in 1982 and what the world heard of Thai (Tajmas) specialized knowledge of the embryos in those verses even announced immediately and without hesitation that there is no god but Allah, Mohammad is the Messenger of God, also attended the conference, Prof. famous ( Keith Moore) is a senior professor of American and Canadian universities and said (it is impossible to be a prophet knew all these minute details on the stages of creating a perception of the fetus and of itself, and must have been in contact with the senior scientist briefed on the various sciences, not and is God) and has announced his conversion to Islam at the conference held in 1983 and line Qur'an and miracles in Arabic in the university's famous book, taught to medical students in the faculties of America and Canada.

--------------------------------------------------------

Numerical Miracles

each word ho many times have it been mentioned in quran

life 115

Afterlife 115

Satan Angels 88 88 times respectivly

life 145 times death 145 times

men 24 women 24

devil 11 & 11 to seek refuge from it

days 365 month 12

Muslim prayers 5

and had said the word sea 32 times and the word land 13 times ,total 13 + 32=45

- And make the following two equations we get the following:

The equation "1": number of words sea (water)mentioned ÷ the total number of words on land and sea × 100

The equation "2": the number of word land mentioned ÷ total number of words on land and sea × 100

Based on the first equation: 32 ÷ 45 × 100 ==== 71,111111111 percent

At the second equation: 13 ÷ 45 × 100 ==== 28,88888889 percent

Modern science has proven that the ocean water is a 71.111111111 percent of the volume of the earth and the dry land is 28.88888889 Pal hundred (Is this all a coincidence )!!!!

* Eternal Miracle Quran he says: (And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will not accept it when it is one of the losers in the Hereafter).

[color=#770077][/color][center][/center]

gwine0047:


I think you are the funny one here. Since when hasn't the Creature blame the Creator?
It happens every time. That's by the way.
Those instances you gave have series of choice prior to them. Even at that instant, there are plenty of choices one could have made which may not culminate into your proposed results.

My question is why should one suffer as a result of a decision or indecision in a situation he didn't choose to be?

Simple. You are a creation. You have no say in your Creator's decision to bring you to existence. You suffer because you refuse to recognise the fact that you are not greater than your Creator and as a result you can NEVER question His decision. If you are greater than your Creator then it is most likely you don't have to ask this question.

gwine0047:

I fail to concur. Even scientists believe things don't just appear - it's always as a consequence of another thing ( reaction, collision, degradation etc ) The mystery to them has always been how things came to be in the first place. Since things can't just come to be by themselves, all logics support these things to be a complex work of someone very intelligence and extraordinary
Am not, for now trying to prove Yahweh but the existence of a supreme being

could the world be better? on what basis do you regard this "Supreme being" to be intelligent?

and stop trying to muddle things up here, I'm not arguing for big bang

the main point is that what's unknown is unknown and is unknown

we are here, how did we come about? I don't know but I won't fill that with an imaginary friend either

You say am ignorant. From experience, I've come to know that it's braver to trust in god (whichever one) than to trust in none. You don't believe in God but you believe in the order of GOOD and BAD, RIGHT and WRONG you believe in MORALS. Tell me how far those are from a god.

I'm always respectful to those I chat with and I'm pretty sure I NEVER called you ignorant, here are my words

"all gods are just used to fill gaps in our ignorance and you're proving that to be true"

Morals prove god as much as Biro proves Hopefullandlord

what's right and wrong varies from society to society

Delusion? Mass or minute, am not talking about ordinary people born into doctrines or sets of church goers and preachers. I am talking about ATHEISTS like you who blurt out the phrases "we make our own luck" "god is biggest joke ever" "there's no such thing as good luck or bad".....

erhm, all these don't prove the existence of any god bro, we don't know the source of luck or if there's even luck at all; you don't figure any sheet out by praying, you do by getting off your a-ss and getting sheet done

opportunities multiply as they are seized!!!

But when poo is about to happen maybe not to them but to their loved ones, a TRUE feel arises from and for once their pride fail and they say a word of PRAYER to the god (s) they don't believe exist

This thread dismantles what you just said

Though, moral varies. it follows a particular natural trend

tell us those "particular trend"

Will this 'freewill' be present in Heaven?

skeendyke:
The essence of freewill negates responsibility on a third party. If you put your hand in fire and get burnt, is it God's fault? If you refuse to read for your exams and fail, it is God's fault that you are so lazy to read while others are making distinctions in flying colours.

You wear a earpiece listening to music in full blast while crossing a very busy express way but get knocked down and die because you failed to hear the repeated warning horn from a vehicle coming your direction in full speed. Who is to blame in all this, God or your foolishness?

If you will blame God for bringing you to existence then you should also blame God for living a foolish existence that results in your going to hell fire...as if hell is the only place where you will find people who have ever died....

Being found with life it is your choice how you live your life....God does not make that choice for you then why blame Him for your existence? How can the creation blame the Creator for its existence? You guys are really funny.

gwine0047:


And you are my room buddy

Clearly I'm not. You live in a different world

hopefulLandlord:


could the world be better? on what basis do you regard this "Supreme being" to be intelligent?

and stop trying to muddle things up here, I'm not arguing for big bang

the main point is that what's unknown is unknown and is unknown

we are here, how did we come about? I don't know but I won't fill that with an imaginary friend either

I'm always respectful to those I chat with and I'm pretty sure I NEVER called you ignorant, here are my words

"all gods are just used to fill gaps in our ignorance and you're proving that to be true"

Morals prove god as much as Biro proves Hopefullandlord

what's right and wrong varies from society to society


erhm, all these don't prove the existence of any god bro, we don't know the source of luck or if there's even luck at all; you don't figure any sheet out by praying, you do by getting off your a-ss and getting sheet done

opportunities multiply as they are seized!!!

This thread dismantles what you just said


tell us those "particular trend"

Forgive me for misinterpreting you. Now, I wholly understand what you mean. For clarity, my thread was to understand how fair God was with his Creatures. Do we really have freedom, a pinch of it or is it all an illusion. So I believe in God ( Christian version) though I fail to accept the idea of religion.

Educate me please, how do know the idea of God was imagined? How do you know that the void created by the your assertion of the presence of UNKNOWNS isn't suitably filled by the idea you have rejected. You agree we were ignorant and I believe that man cannot stay ignorant for long - he always want to know. How can you tell that that gap wasn't accurately filled? Man needed an explanation, God gave it.