novicali:
I just want to know if it is proper for someone that has received holy ghost to still go through water baptism. I mean in case you spoke to an unbeliever and he o she received the message and accepted Jesus in his or her life. And you laid hand on him or her, he or she starts to speak in tongues. Please present your points with cogent reasons!

chalantmike:
the rite of baptism is a significant rite to any Christian, it signify dying with the old man and rising with the a new, or putting down the old self and rising as a new man, holy sport has never been a caterion or must have or not have in other to go for baptism, regardless mandatory as a Christian yhud should undergo baptism, the holy spirit is more than just speaking in tongues, way more.

do yhud have discerning spirit ?, an unbeliever can not have the real holy spirit, on what would it be built?, Buh the the holy spirit can be replicated ,camouflaged as. that unbeliever does not have the holy spirit yet, the consciousness of God yes, the new Christian would have that, Buh the spirit of God NO.

novicali:
Please expatiate on your points cos I’m getting something but not clear. How can a new christian not have Holy Ghost, who convicted him? And is Spirit of God different from Holy Ghost? Again do we have fake Holy Ghost?

novicali:
Please expatiate on your points cos I’m getting something but not clear. How can a new christian not have Holy Ghost, who convicted him? And is Spirit of God different from Holy Ghost? Again do we have fake Holy Ghost?

chalantmike:
how can a new Christian not have the holy spirit?

- the holy spirit like every state,takes actual experience and awareness, ask yhurself for the fact that one is a Christian, does it mean that they possess the holy spirit?.

how do yhu expect a new Christian, like the recently converted yhu stated to posses the fruit of the spirit, which is actually an evidence of the holy spirit, more than even the speaking of tongues.

the holy spirit is a state an awareness, it can be dramatized ,replicated, people speaking gibberish does that make it the holy spirit or the language of tongues, Buh speaking seemingly gibberish and acting in a certain way, is a sign of the holy spirit.

OK to put it clearly, what are the physical evidence that a person possess the holy spirit, speaking in tongues, acting a certain etc, all those qualities can be replicated, this where the spirit of discernment comes in, funny enough modern day Christians don't have, the spirit of discernment is just another branch or function of the holy spirit by the way.

the consciousness of God is not necessarily the holy spirit, by consciousness of God I mean "do this", " don't do that", "if I do this,God will not be happy with me" etc,its an individual awareness of the presence of God, Buh the holy spirit bears witness to that, and in every case that is one function of the holy, listen when I said a new Christian can not have the holy spirit, I was referring to speaking in tongues, in particular not the holy spirit as a whole.

every Christian is on a spiritual journey, yhu don't teleport from level 1 to level 10 ,over night.

the above is why after a while, a new Christian would feel as if they have lost the holy spirit"which they never really had per say, its just misconception", even without sinning, what they actually lost is the God consciousness, maintaining God consciousness take actual effort, imagine having to filter the words in yhur head before yhud say them, or having to dialog in yhur head before yhud do anything yhud want to do, "Having to fight yhur old habit ,thoughts,sinful way,things that yhu once took for granted " that is really stressful.

in every Christian the holy spirit functions differently and exhibits differently ,what makes a Christian is having mastered the God consciousness, and a totally submission to it, it is that submission that helps yhu attain that state "Holy spirit" which then bears witness and fruit " fruit of the spirit" in every Christian.

baptism in a way is a form of conditioning preparing yhu for the manifestation of the holy, see it as an initiation ,cause that Is exactly what it is.

a new Christian can not just start speaking in tongues, he doesn't even know which function of the holy spirit he is more susceptive too, at that stage they probably Dnt know who they are in Christ.
like I said its a journey.

novicali:
Thanks once again it is getting interesting here! However, I have say that some of the things you said here rather confusing.
1. I must tell you that a new christian (new convert/born-again) has the Holy Ghost in him or her because it was the Holy Ghost that induced him or her to accept Christ, immediately that is done He dwells in him in order to direct him. Though the only thing required of him is to grow in the knowledge of Him. knowledge therefore becomes the key to maturity and that is why he needs to start attending bible studies and other training.
2. Water Baptism should and have not been a way of preparing one for the manifestation of the Holy Ghost... See Acts 10 and confirm.
3.The Jesus experience during His water baptism was a sign to convince John that He is the Messiah.
4. A new christian can just start speaking in tongues (ask Cornelius and his family)
5. By knowledge and inclination of your mind towards the instruction of the Holy Ghost you wouldn't find it difficult to obey His instruction as regards to your habits and characters.
6. please dont confuse water baptism and baptism they are not the same... Baptism can mean a teaching e.g Baptism of John is not the water baptism but the teaching of John the baptize as regards to the coming of the messiah.

chalantmike:
I think I get where yhur misconception is from, yhu feel the holy spirit is a right of every Christian, having the holy spirit is as simple as repenting.

on what then is it built on?. its not repentance of sin, cause Christ and the disciple stayed away from sin, and still for awhile never had the holy spirit, in fact to Christ the holy was nothing more than a prophecy that should come to pass, till he got it,

" so that all that is written in the scripture might be fulfilled "
do yhu remember this line, in the verse of the baptism, water baptism and baptism occurred at the same time here.

to the disciples the holy was a promise and comforter , they had to waited,its was never an automated system, they didn't receive it the day they greed to follow Christ,like Christ they had to wait, some of the disciples even went back to their old profession, ways while waiting.


a new Christian is like a farm land, yes cleared of all bushed and weed, the holy spirit in this scenario is like a seed if yhu plant it before the land is ready, the weeds will regrow n kill it. the God consciousness is the conditioning while the land waiting, ensuring that no weed would grow back.
a
on what is the holy spirit built on?, let me help yhu out, READINESS .
read the bible don't just read the print "even Christ said Woman my hour has not yet come"

remember accepting Christ is the requirement to be a Christian, not the holy spirit, Buh to be a spirit filled full armoured, spiritual functioning Christ, mean yhu need the holy spirit for that.

Christian is no different from one who uses a public phone,a public line, he would still receive response, get answers to prays etc.

spirit filled Christian is one who bought a private line, a mobile phone and goes everywhere with it.

both Christians still make and receive calls duo. #Smiles.

donnie:


Yes it's possible to believe in Jesus and not have the Holy Spirit. This was the situation with the believers whom Paul met at Ephesus. (Acts 19:1-7)

Yes the Holy Spirit does convict sinners of their sin. But the decision to accept Christ is theirs to make. However, salvation goes beyond conviction... the Spirit actually Baptizes the believer into the body of Christ and he is saved (1cor12:13). But the Holy Ghost may not reside in him as yet.

In some cases as on Pentecost or at the house of Cornelius, one can have both experiences at once (Acts2:1-4; Acts10:44-46).

There is no fake Holy Ghost. You may try to fake or mimmick His manifestations though, but that's making room for demonic influence in your life.

Spirit of God, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost all refer to the same person of the trinity. "Holy Ghost" is King James English tho.

As per water baptism... Why not? ...he should be baptised. That's exactly what happened in the case of Cornelius with Peter (Acts10:44,47).

novicali:
You got it wrong you know! Those people in the book of Acts 19:1-7 cannot be called believers as in believing in Christ, because they never heard the gospel. Yes they said that they were baptized unto John's baptism, meaning they only heard the preaching of John concerning the coming messiah (which is the baptism of repentance). Then Apostle took them through the message of Christ (which is the death burial and resurrection and even His ascension) see (1cor 15:1-5) and they believed then he laid hand on them Holy Ghost came in them and they started speaking in tongues. The baptism in this content and context is not water baptism but teaching!

novicali:
I have to say that I appreciate your effort to enlighten me in this topic. However, I must confess some of the points you have made are just inept as regards to the issue or the bone of contention here.
1. According to your statement, a new converts doesn't have Holy Ghost. If this is true, it nullifies this statement in bible that "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come (2Cor 1:21-22)NIV. Again if your statement is true, it overrules the fact that in 2 Cor 5:17-18 the bible says that "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation" take not that it says 'all things are of God' meaning that the new converts now belong to God and thee is no way he can belong to God without the seal of the Holy Ghost! Mind you i didn't say because he has been baptized therefore he belong to God but because he has accepted the message of Christ which is the only message that grant someone salvation see 1Cor 15:1-4.
2. I think you are yet to come terms with the fact that someone can be sealed with the Holy Ghost and not having the wherewithal in spiritual maturity which is a function of knowledge. Now, take for instance in the case of a new born baby, either born (male or female) that he is a new born baby should not take the fact that the baby is a complete human being and in him is all that it will take to be a full foliage man or woman intact, though not developed. assuredly, the sexual organs are intact, it will only take growth to make them mature for reproduction and the same is applicable to new convert he has the Holy Ghost but it will take growth which is a function of knowledge to make the effects of Holy Ghost in his life to be noticed. It is not baptism that will bring out the Fruit of the Spirit in him or her.
3. like I said earlier baptism was given to John in order to help him recognize who the Christ is "Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.” (jn 1:32 -34). That was why the ministry of baptism was given to him. The question is this, why didn't all the people John baptized received the Holy Ghost as Jesus did? Also, remember John and Jesus were cousins and he is a man of senses there is no way he would have accepted that Jesus is the messiah ordinarily without that sign.
3. Why didn't Jesus baptize his disciples, and why did the Holy Ghost came on them without them being baptized? Therefore, I still maintain that water baptism is one of those activities in the gospel that Jesus allowed because they are not the end. And that is why He placed a disclaimer on all of them in John 16:12-13. As a result, I have to say that Holy Ghost baptism takes preeminence over water baptism and if someone has been baptized by Holy Ghost water baptism is just a formality that can be done away with.

chalantmike:


OK oya this, is the holy spirit, the spirit of Christ?, what or who do yhu think the holy spirit is?, is Jesus Christ God in the literally sense of God himself?.
Summary:
1. God in creation
2. Jesus Christ in Redemption/Salvation of man
3. Holy in the regeneration
Just the same person!

if yhu can answer those I think yhud get the concept here.
when God needed to come as man, Jesus Christ was birthed, Jesus Christ is nothing more than an extension of God.

when God needed to interact with man spiritually, the holy spirit was birthed, as an extension of God himself, the holy spirit maintains a very separate personality and entity from God same as Jesus Christ.

Well correct but i dont like the word extension because I think it limits the essence of God deity!

look at this verse
Matthew 12:31, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.”

what do yhu notice, the holy spirit is a very very very very separate entity from God and Jesus, now look at this Jesus own his own spirit, his own entity,his own identity. God owns his own spirit ,his own identity, his own entity. the holy spirit owns his own spirit,his own entity, his identy.

do not confuse the holy Trinity to mean all three are the same, the trinity means "Three becoming one" an example is an egg.
partially correct ... though if you have used wax as in candle or water as an example it would have been better!
the book of genesis, "the spirit of the lord moved upon the face of the waters" not the holy spirit.
please check the Hebrew meaning the word spirit in this verse you quoted.
the holy spirit has always been a visitor in human affairs until Christ left before the holy came down to perform fully, very little is known of the holy spirit before the new testament, but very much his own of the spirit of God in the old testament.
Correct!
study yhur bible in the old testament there was no speaking, which universally is evidence of the holy, so also the fruit of the spirit.

in the old testament the spirit of God worked with man directly without a medium, people who were in contact where called prophets. i think its because God worked with man directly thats why he was prone to anger,jealousy and hard boss.
Incorrect because God is not emotional and cannot change no matter what! Anyone who thinks that God can be angry, jealous and hard is yet to understand the nature of God.

Christ came and corrected that,we saw a more calm,forgiving and loving father, one not to be fear,one compassionate but still abit prone to anger. remember what happened in the temple,remember what Christ did to that fig tree,that was swift anger and attribute of his father.
This shows that the representation of God in Old Testament was wrong and is subject to verification!

when Christ left, the holy spirit was sent to maintain a relationship with man, here we see a more personal,friendly,chatty side of God, the kind of God YHU can have a conversation with, the kind of God that yhu can call yhur friend,a comforter,literally here yhur better of seeing God a working partner,a friend, than an Almighty deity ready to smith yhu or waiting for yhu to sin.
Buh the holy has a down side,he will not forgive blasphemy, and remainant of the anger of God.
Well the three have the same nature. Jesus died for every sin except the sin of unbelief. Whoever that did not believe the finished work of Christ has blasphemed the Holy Ghost because the person is saying that what the Holy Ghost has come to confirm is a lie and at the last day will not be forgiven.
the holy spirit, the spirit of God are very different things, spirit of God is just the God consciousness I mentioned.
I am appalled by this because is very incorrect!

water baptism is a rite ,symbolic gesture,spiritual gesture of putting the old man to rest and raising a new, baptism of the holy spirit is the baptism of fire, a new converted can be acted upon by the holy spirit, Buh the holy spirit will not stay, the holy spirit is very very very very thorough ,he searches the heart, Christ is even more tolerant to sin than the holy spirit, that level of spotlessness a new Christian can hardly posses, the Spirit of God or God consciousness on the other hand is patient.
1. please try to get the meaning of the word 'baptism of fire' used in that verse or better still study and dig deep is important because your thought about it is wrong.
2. If the holy ghost cannot stay why convicting the person? why taking a house you cannot live inside? Salah!
3. Is the holy Ghost does not tolerant sin who sanctifies the believer? This doesn't mean that He condoles/accept sin!
4. Who makes the believer to grow into maturity and how?

if a spirit filled Christian, man of God sins,he loses the holy spirit immediately, Buh the spirit of God,the God consciousness he does not lose, it is this God consciousness that patiently wants to stir yhu back to God, its safe to say we as humans all have to certain degree,that part of ourselves that is always akin to God, if yhu like be an idol worshipper.
There is confusion here! The spirit of God and Holy Ghost are the same and even the spirit of the believer have been joined together with God's Spirit (1 Cor 6:17).
Summation
The relevance of water baptism expires with the end of John the baptist ministry. "I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God” (Jn 1:33-34). Question: have the Holy Ghost come and is He baptizing people today? For one to be born-again he or she has to be born of Spirit, therefore, you need to have the Spirit in order to be born of Him. If your father didn't give birth to you there is no way you can answer your father's name. Though you many not look like your father facially, or even character wise but the reality is that his gene is in your blood and definitely you will reflect him as you grow and learn more about him.

chalantmike:
I can give yhu close to 20 names of people/ antagonists in the bible who had the consciousness of God,this people were idol worshippers, mediums,seers etc.

I can instance where the spirit of God,the God consciousness stirred some of this people to attack the Israelites, help the iseralites, identify and was against the Israelites, and were punished for going against the Spirit of God.

the holy spirit is different from the spirit of God.

sonofthunder:
brother, hurry up now and go read the book of Acts... the answer you seek is there... cheers!

novicali:
You dont just read the book of Acts to understand this issue, it requires thorough studying!

sonofthunder:

of course... and have you started doing that? what's been your findings so far?

novicali:
Any church leader who establishes doctrine in his church based on the book of Acts is very myopic in the knowledge of the Scripture. The book of Acts is not a book of doctrine rather an eye witness account of the fluctuation in the character of the Apostles as regards to their knowledge of the Scripture. The Church in the book of Acts is a baby church because there was limited revelation knowledge of Christ among them until Apostle Paul came in from Arabia! The Epistles are the books of doctrine and they demystified the errors that took place in the book of Acts. So I don't necessarily need to read the book of Acts to get the answers to this question!

novicali:
■ I just want to know if it is proper for someone that has received holy ghost to still go through water baptism. I mean in case you spoke to an unbeliever and he or she received the message and accepted Jesus in his or her life. And you laid hand on him or her, he or she starts to speak in tongues. Please present your points with cogent reasons!

■ the rite of baptism is a significant rite to any Christian, it signify dying with the old man and rising with the a new, or putting down the old self and rising as a new man, holy sport has never been a caterion or must have or not have in other to go for baptism, regardless mandatory as a Christian yhud should undergo baptism, the holy spirit is more than just speaking in tongues, way more.
■ do yhud have discerning spirit ?, an unbeliever can not have the real holy spirit, on what would it be built?, Buh the the holy spirit can be replicated ,camouflaged as. that unbeliever does not have the holy spirit yet, the consciousness of God yes, the new Christian would have that, Buh the spirit of God NO.