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Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith - Islam for Muslims - Nairaland

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Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by usermane(m): 1:59am On Jun 18
The Qur'an reiterates that it is a complete book. Therefore, to become a genuine Muslim, one has to believe that the Qur'an alone is fully sufficient for spiritual life. And so the notion among traditionalists that Islam cannot be fully practised based on the Qur'an alone evidently spells the traditionalists' deviation from the Qur'an or worse still, denial of the Qur'an.

The traditionalists justify their claims of the insufficiency of the Qur'an and need for their traditions(hadith) on ground that the Qur'an does not teach fundamental doctrines like Salat, since the hadith cover these doctrines, Hadith become an essential in practice of Islam. There are two flaws to this logic.

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Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by usermane(m): 2:02am On Jun 18
The first flaw in this logic is it negates the role of the Qur'an as the criterion for valid or invalid, truth or false, right or wrong. Simply put, every tenet of Islam has to be confirmed by the Qur'an. If a detail in Islam cannot be verified Qur'anic wise, it is basically invalid or at best, unnecessary.

The second flaw properly brings us to the topic of this piece. You can't learn salat from the Hadith. For the sake of clarity, take the early Muslims after Muhammad as case study. In order for them to have learnt salat from the hadith, hadith must meet the following requirements;

I. There has to be an hadith or a couple of hadith from the same narrator outlining the complete detailed steps and sequences recommended for salat. This will prove that the Muhammad did invest his time in elaborating and recording salat which he supposedly was taught by the angel of revelation.

II. This hadith has to be sahih and mutawatir(generally known) since salat is a generally accepted tenet of Islam.
It is only reasonable that if something is going to be generally practiced in a community, it has to be generally known by all the inhabitants. Not just one or two persons who may have never even met.

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Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by usermane(m): 2:04am On Jun 18
There is no single hadith or couple of hadith from the same narrator demonstrating all the steps of salat in detailed sequence. There exist hadith that mention key areas like tone of recitatation, number of rakas, recitations while standing etc but none of them combines all this details that wholly make up salat.

Next, given that these hadith were not graded at this time, they couldn't be considered sahih. Finally, virtually all of these hadith were non-mutawatir. And thus, most early Muslims either never heard of hadith teaching salat or or heard one or two hadith teaching specific parts of salat rather than the whole salat. Salat then becomes like a broken puzzle, it pieces scattered randomly in different locations.

An early Muslim, Mr X though fortunate to have one piece of the puzzle cannot solve the puzzle and has no idea where to obtain the other pieces, how many of these pieces exist or how to identify a real piece from a fake.

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Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by usermane(m): 2:07am On Jun 18
As Mr. X cannot solve this puzzle, the early Muslim could never learn salat from hadith. For him to do so, he'll access to all the existing hadith on salat in form of compilations as we have now. But there were no such compilations in his days.

Not withstanding their oblivion to tons of hadith explaining salat, the early Muslims performed salat in uniformity. The only logical explanation of this is that Mr X or the early Muslim did not learn salat from the Hadith, for if he did, his undertanding and practice of salat would be vastly different.
Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by AbdelKabir: 7:42am On Jun 18
ان الذين يكفرون بالله ورسله ويريدون ان يفرقوا بين الله ورسله ويقولون نؤمن ببعض ونكفر ببعض ويريدون ان يتخذوا بين ذلك سبيلا اولئك هم الكافرون حقا

Verily those who disbelieve in Allaah and his messengers, they wish to distinguished between Allaah and his messengers, they say we believe in some part and disbelieve 1 in some, the wish to hold on to between this and that, these people in truth are disbelievers....




1 - و قال الله تعالى :ومن يكفر بالايمان فقد حبط عمله وهو في الاخره من الخاسرين

Whoever disbelieves in (the articles of) faith his deeds has already become dust and he will be in the hereafter among the losers.


When jibril alayhi salaatu wa salaam asked 'Oh Muhammad tell me about faith" The messenger sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam said: it is belief in Allaah, his Angels, his books, his messengers, the last day and its belief in qadr be it good or bad
Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by usermane(m): 9:53am On Jun 18
AbdelKabir:
ان الذين يكفرون بالله ورسله ويريدون ان يفرقوا بين الله ورسله ويقولون نؤمن ببعض ونكفر ببعض ويريدون ان يتخذوا بين ذلك سبيلا اولئك هم الكافرون حقا

Verily those who disbelieve in Allaah and his messengers, they wish to distinguished between Allaah and his messengers, they say we believe in some part and disbelieve 1 in some, the wish to hold on to between this and that, these people in truth are disbelievers....




1 - و قال الله تعالى :ومن يكفر بالايمان فقد حبط عمله وهو في الاخره من الخاسرين

Whoever disbelieves in (the articles of) faith his deeds has already become dust and he will be in the hereafter among the losers.


When jibril alayhi salaatu wa salaam asked 'Oh Muhammad tell me about faith" The messenger sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam said: it is belief in Allaah, his Angels, his books, his messengers, the last day and its belief in qadr be it good or bad

What are you insinuating?

Quran 41:3
A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

Everything the messenger taught is already covered in the Qur'an, this is what proves the Qur'anic verses are detailed.
Anyone, any Muslim who believes that the Qur'an is devoid of any atom of Islamic guidance is insincere or ignorant.

Please clear your mind of sectarian teachings, opinions of sages, traditions of mortals and approach the Qur'an with objectivity and reason.
Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by AbdelKabir: 10:10am On Jun 18
usermane:


What are you insinuating?

That whoever tries to distinguish between Allaah and his messenger, believing in one and disbelieve in one is in truth a disbeliever.....

Quran 41:3
A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

Using the verse you brought, what can you say about the last part "for people who understand?"

Allaah says the prophet was raised in order to EXPLAIN the Qur'an for us, where is this explanation?

Everything the messenger taught is already covered in the Qur'an, this is what proves the Qur'anic verses are detailed.
Anyone, any Muslim who believes that the Qur'an is devoid of any atom of Islamic guidance is insincere or ignorant.

Please clear your mind of sectarian teachings, opinions of sages, traditions of mortals and approach the Qur'an with objectivity and reason.

In order not to waste my time, do all the "qur'aniyoon" pray fundamentally in a same manner?
Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by usermane(m): 10:46am On Jun 18
AbdelKabir:


That whoever tries to distinguish between Allaah and his messenger, believing in one and disbelieve in one is in truth a disbeliever.....



Using the verse you brought, what can you say about the last part "for people who understand?"

You think it has a meaning that discredit my interpretation of the verse? If so, cut the crap. Otherwise, why even ask. Don't come playing mind games with me.

Allaah says the prophet was raised in order to EXPLAIN the Qur'an for us, where is this explanation?

In order not to waste my time, do all the "qur'aniyoon" pray fundamentally in a same manner?

For your first question.
If we agree that the Qur'an is detailed, then it is only logical to assume that the prophet explanation is derivable and verifiable from the Qur'an. For the prophet to have explanations that cannot be verified with the Qur'an is contradictory to Qur'anic verses.

For your second question
I and most most of the Qur'an focused Muslims I know agree that there is more than one way to perform salat. Thus, our salat may or may not be fundamentally the same.
You are the one wasting your time. The questions you raised so far have no bearing with the topic of this thread.
Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by AbdelKabir: 10:55am On Jun 18
usermane:


You think it has a meaning that discredit my interpretation of the verse? If so, cut the crap. Otherwise, why even ask. Don't come playing mind games with me.

Already drifting to the path of "war of words"? Common its just one question and you couldn't control yourself....

Anyway, what does " for people who understands " means?


For your first question.
If we agree that the Qur'an is detailed, then it is only logical to assume that the prophet explanation is derivable and verifiable from the Qur'an. For the prophet to have explanations that cannot be verified with the Qur'an is contradictory to Qur'anic verses.

Logically speaking, when you want to explain something, how can you use that thing to explain itself properly?

For your second question
I and most most of the Qur'an focused Muslims I know agree that there is more than one way to perform salat. Thus, our salat may or may not be fundamentally the same.

How do you pray and what part of the Qur'an points to the correctness of your salaah?

You are the one wasting your time. The questions you raised so far have no bearing with the topic of this thread.

Easy tiger grin
Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by usermane(m): 12:16pm On Jun 18
AbdelKabir:


Already drifting to the path of "war of words"? Common its just one question and you couldn't control yourself....

Anyway, what does " for people who understands " means?

Not a chance. I suppose you are only asking cos you believe its meaning discredit my understanding of the verse. You either tell us the meaning or forget it.

Logically speaking, when you want to explain something, how can you use that thing to explain itself properly?

If that thing is a book that state it is detailed, then its passages will provide all the necessary details required to comprehend it. A book can can be self explanatory.

How do you pray and what part of the Qur'an points to the correctness of your salaah?

I'll answer that question another time. To do so here will entirely derail the thread. I want this thread to be fixated on the salat according to hadith. Does the hadith teach salat? If yes, how did the early Muslim manage to perform salat uniformly in oblivion to many hadith on salat? Rather than multiple, unconnected reports by a few companions on different steps in salat, why isn't there a single hadith of the prophet fully demonstrating salat to many companions? These are focus of this thread. In a way, they'll help you better understand my position on salat, how and why I arrived at my conclusion.

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Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by Empiree: 4:29pm On Jul 30
Why would they?. They learned directly from him (saw).

Documents (ahadith) retained for later generations (us) to learn from.

Logical?
Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by AlBaqir(m): 7:10am On Aug 01
usermane:


If yes, how did the early Muslim manage to perform salat uniformly in oblivion to many hadith on salat? Rather than multiple, unconnected reports by a few companions on different steps in salat, why isn't there a single hadith of the prophet fully demonstrating salat to many companions? These are focus of this thread. In a way, they'll help you better understand my position on salat, how and why I arrived at my conclusion.


# Had it been you believe in any Hadith at all, you find a popular Hadith of Nabi which says, "Pray (Salat) as you SEE ME PRAYING".

# Salat is more of a practical thing than being writing. The companion saw Nabi praying, they followed step by step for 23 years and this is maintained and passed down the generation. For example, Imam Malik Ibn Anas was born and breed in Madina. He met couple of sahabah and topmost tabi'in (students of sahabah). He saw them praying Salat. This was how detailed documentation of Salat begin in writing and fiqh book developed.


# If Qur'an had taught details of A, B, C, to Z, then what's the role of Messenger via whom the book was revealed?


Surah Al-Jumua, Verse 2:

He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Apostle from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error


* Quran says, " Pray Salat".

* Salat is practical.

* Then Nabi demonstrated it for them

* And it is maintained and passed down the generations.


# Why scanty information on Salat in the books of hadith:

We do not expect anyone who met the Prophet to learn Salat via writing but Practice. If s/he sees something "new" or "unique" to a particular Salat or question is asked concerning an aspect of Salat, then you don't expect a complete description of Salat in Hadith. Yet, Hadith exist with detailed description of obligatory part of Salat.

* I would've love to quote but its useless since you do not believe in hadith/Sunnah.

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Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by Nobody: 1:59pm On Aug 01
Very funny. . a kafir quoting hadith on akam issue. . u belief in akam and u disbelief in aqeedah. . k . albaqir
Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by udatso: 3:12pm On Aug 01
AhluSunnah:
Very funny. . a kafir quoting hadith on akam issue. . u belief in akam and u disbelief in aqeedah. . k . alba.qir. aqir
Wallahi, you can be so annoying. Kafir or not he has made good points to refute the op. What contribution have you brought forward? If you have nothing reasonable to say, keep quiet and learn.
@usermane I really wish you had answered abdelkabir's questions. You brought a verse to support your claim and you feel explaining it will derail the thread? How illogical

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Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by Empiree: 3:30pm On Aug 01
AhluSunnah:
Very funny. . a kafir quoting hadith on akam issue. . u belief in akam and u disbelief in aqeedah. . k . albaqir

Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by Nobody: 3:31pm On Aug 01
udatso:

Wallahi, you can be so annoying. Kafir or not he has made good points to refute the op. What contribution have you brought forward? If you have nothing reasonable to say, keep quiet and learn.
@usermane I really wish you had answered abdelkabir's questions. You brought a verse to support your claim and you feel explaining it will derail the thread? How illogical
Laughing. . .vex your anger on the shite maybe he can become a muslim
Re: Early Muslims Didn't Learn Salat From The Hadith by Nobody: 3:35pm On Aug 01
He is the same thing with the guy that reject hadith... they are both kufar. . . rejecting hadith is absolutely the same with rejecting eeman. .

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