I am so much interested with the atheist website for weeks now. the websites(withheld) are full of brilliant views and logic analysis to debunk the believe of Christian and Muslim god. I try as much as possible to look for an atheist website that has anything to do with African traditional faith, but it seems non exist. .......... I will like to have a friendly discussion with any willing nairaland atheist. most of you guys here on nairaland are brilliant. the subject of the discussion can be on anything interesting. Christian and Muslim are all welcome. and likewise my African traditionalist can contribute. babalawo .you are invited.

vaxx:
I am so much interested with the atheist website for weeks now. the websites(withheld) are full of brilliant views and logic analysis to debunk the believe of Christian and Muslim god. I try as much as possible to look for an atheist website that has anything to do with African traditional faith, but it seems non exist.

reason is that most traditional beliefs are not as encroaching as their Abrahamic counterparts, Abrahamic religions are aggressive to every other religions and themselves too, so it is no surprise that such publicity makes them the obvious target to raw criticism

.......... I will like to have a friendly discussion with any willing nairaland atheist. most of you guys here on nairaland are brilliant. the subject of the discussion can be on anything interesting. Christian and Muslim are all welcome. and likewise my African traditionalist can contribute. babalawo .you are invited.

All right let us do it then

Nice thread, something I will like to know as well.

johnydon22:
reason is that most traditional beliefs are not as encroaching as their Abrahamic counterparts, Abrahamic religions are aggressive to every other religions and themselves too, so it is no surprise that such publicity makes them the obvious target to raw criticism



All right let us do it then

good bro. there is no God . how do you arrive in that conclusion

vaxx:
good bro. there is no God . how do you arrive in that conclusion

The idea of God at the very first conception is more assumptive than empirical, that means that the postulation that there is a God is rather thought formulated rather than empirically backed.

So my disbelief in God is just an act of honesty in my part from my own perspective, i do not pretend to know there is no God i only try not to pretend that i know there is any.

Following...

Reason is that African traditional believers respect atheists and science. If they know you don't believe them they will live you alone.

Not the Christians that always goes for evangelism, winning souls.

Forcing you to believe there imaginary god and if an

atheist or scientist brings out EXPLANATION and FACTS they will bring debate and try to debunk it.

johnydon22:
The idea of God at the very first conception is more assumptive than empirical, that means that the postulation that there is a God is rather thought formulated rather than empirically backed.

So my disbelief in God is just an act of honesty in my part from my own perspective, i do not pretend to know there is no God i only try not to pretend that i know there is any.

since you believe god is an assumption rather than reality or evidence. your logic here will base on the reality of god existence if at all he exist or any proof to back it.

first lets start with the empirical


let analysis this design. spider and human being.
A tiny animal as a spider. Does anybody really believe that such an extraordinarily creature evolved from primordial soup? Just one of these little animal can produce up to seven different kinds of silk entrapment The spider can on demand not only manufacture its personal choice of the seven silks, but reabsorb, breakdown and remanufacture–self-recycling from the component elements. and also look at the complexity of Human being. don't you think this design must come from a creative expert or can it just be a sudden development?

Davidgrey:
That is because "African Traditional myths" are baseless and full of unsubstantiated crap.

have you try to understand african tradition beyond the myth. get the teaching first before you question the faith itself. I also think science evidence of big bang theory those not correlate with human logic. hope you know Charles's Darwin theory of evolution is not yet a fact. despite its large popularity.

Rubish thred. God hate african tradition because of Ham. Ham did eveil and cum shot of d condom of God & Africa becum d wide way to disruption et anally.

vaxx:
have you try to understand african tradition beyond the myth. get the teaching first before you question the faith itself. I also think science evidence of big bang theory those not correlate with human logic. hope you know Charles's Darwin theory of evolution is not yet a fact. despite its large popularity.

Human logic is ignorance, "objectively verified truths" are conclusive and owe human logic no explanation

No one has ever argued that the current ideologue behind "big bang" is factually accurate but.... The process is factual and can't be disputed

The universe expands..... What they did was to rewind the expansion and hence "big bang theory"

Spare me that crap notion about traditional myths.

Davidgrey:
Human logic is ignorance, "objectively verified truths" are conclusive and owe human logic no explanation

No one has ever argued that the current ideologue behind "big bang" is factually accurate but.... The process is factual and can't be disputed

The universe expands..... What they did was to rewind the expansion and hence "big bang theory"

Spare me that crap notion about traditional myths.

human logic is ignorant you say. then what is the importance of critical thinking that begat rational taught. the only evidence of atheism.

big bang failed human logic and that is why some one like me failed to acknowledge it. logically it is disputed.


I ask you once again have you gotten the knowledge of African tradition beyond the myth?

vaxx:
since you believe god is an assumption rather than reality or evidence. your logic here will base on the reality of god existence if at all he exist or any proof to back it.

I don't really grab the very meaning this portrays, care to elucidate?

first lets start with the empirical
let analysis this design. spider and human being.
A tiny animal as a spider. Does anybody really believe that such an extraordinarily creature evolved from primordial soup? Just one of these little animal can produce up to seven different kinds of silk entrapment The spider can on demand not only manufacture its personal choice of the seven silks, but reabsorb, breakdown and remanufacture–self-recycling from the component elements. and also look at the complexity of Human being. don't you think this design must come from a creative expert or can it just be a sudden development?

A natural impression is not necessarily correct, there is never such a thing as a sudden development, if we employ the evolutionary mechanism every intricate feature is from an accumulation of simpler values over long periods of time - that is not a sudden development.

Now to further take the design argument further, it will still lead us to an infinite regress: because humans are intricate i agree, something powerful and able to design this must be equally as intricate and likely even more intricate, so how do we explain the complexity of the designer?

do we say the designer had no designer ?

then we would fail in our own argument since the complexity of humans to us connotes design why then would the complexity of this designer not connote design?

If complexity must be a pointer to design then the design equally or more complex must also have a designer who in turn must require another design and thus it goes into an infinite regress of designers.

So how do we solve that problem?

An eternal complex being? Still it's complexity kill our argument because we will still show that complex functional system can exist without being designed which kills the very idea of complexity must require design

vaxx:
have you try to understand african tradition beyond the myth. get the teaching first before you question the faith itself.

There is a precious lesson that can be learnt from every religion, cultural or philosophical class in this world, this is not peculiar to the African traditional religion

I also think science evidence of big bang theory those not correlate with human logic.

I will like to stress more on this, care to elaborate?

hope you know Charles's Darwin theory of evolution is not yet a fact. despite its large popularity.

Theory is an explanation of FACT. So i don't get how this statement sells.

vaxx:
human logic is ignorant you say. then what is the importance of critical thinking that begat rational taught. the only evidence of atheism.

Understand the point in his statement, Objectively verified facts owes human logic no explanation. E=MC² owes your logic no explanation to be true.

big bang failed human logic and that is why some one like me failed to acknowledge it. logically it is disputed.

anything can be logically disputed, objective empirical substantiation on the other cannot.

as he said "Objectively verified facts owes human logic no explanation"

johnydon22:
I don't really grab the very meaning this portrays, care to elucidate?

first lets start with the empirical

let analysis this design. spider and human being.
A tiny animal as a spider. Does anybody really believe that such an extraordinarily creature evolved from primordial soup? Just one of these little animal can produce up to seven different kinds of silk entrapment The spider can on demand not only manufacture its personal choice of the seven silks, but reabsorb, breakdown and remanufacture–self-recycling from the component elements. and also look at the complexity of Human being. don't you think this design must come from a creative expert or can it just be a sudden development?

A natural impression is not necessarily correct, there is never such a thing as a sudden development, if we employ the evolutionary mechanism every intricate feature is from an accumulation of simpler values over long periods of time - that is not a sudden development.

Now to further take the design argument further, it will still lead us to an infinite regress: because humans are intricate i agree, something powerful and able to design this must be equally as intricate and likely even more intricate, so how do we explain the complexity of the designer?

do we say the designer had no designer ?

then we would fail in our own argument since the complexity of humans to us connotes design why then would the complexity of this designer not connote design?

If complexity must be a pointer to design then the design equally or more complex must also have a designer who in turn must require another design and thus it goes into an infinite regress of designers.

So how do we solve that problem?

An eternal complex being? Still it's complexity kill our argument because we will still show that complex functional system can exist without being designed which kills the very idea of complexity must require design

the first paragraph try to summarized your believed. which is basically on evidence rather than assumption. now back to the designing question.



God(olodumare)by definition according to the Yoruba believe is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question Who created the designer here will be illogical, just like asking for the bachelor marriage certificate? it will be a absurd question. then why is he a bachelor? as you rightly agree that the design need something powerful to get it done. then why doesn't the powerful designer has a designer?, Everything which has a beginning has a creator The universe has beginning therefore the universe has a creator. The universe requires a creator because it had a beginning .God(olodumare)unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn't need a creator.


how can a functional system exist without passing through the hands of an expert?

johnydon22:
Understand the point in his statement, Objectively verified facts owes human logic no explanation. E=MC² owes your logic no explanation to be true.

anything can be logically disputed, objective empirical substantiation on the other cannot.

as he said "Objectively verified facts owes human logic no explanation"

my dear empirical is all about experience or relevant observation which are just mere phenomenon. logic on the other hands test the observation and evaluate it to get if it is actually practical .


if I still remember big bang theory is yet to become a fact.

johnydon22:


There is a precious lesson that can be learnt from every religion, cultural or philosophical class in this world, this is not peculiar to the African traditional religion

I will like to stress more on this, care to elaborate?



Theory is an explanation of FACT. So i don't get how this statement sells.

no sir. a theory is different front fact. theory is all about hypothesis . fact is an evidence. supposing i say the sky took its colour from water. simply because i make a research can be debunked by another researcher. supposing i say sperm produces baby . it is an evidence.

johnydon22:


There is a precious lesson that can be learnt from every religion, cultural or philosophical class in this world, this is not peculiar to the African traditional religion

I will like to stress more on this, care to elaborate?



Theory is an explanation of FACT. So i don't get how this statement sells.

no sir. a theory is different from fact. theory is all about hypothesis . fact is an evidence. supposing i say the sky took its colour from water. simply because i make a research can be debunked by another researcher. supposing i say sperm produces baby . it is a fact with evidence.

vaxx:
no sir. a theory is different from fact. theory is all about hypothesis . fact is an evidence. supposing i say the sky took its colour from water. simply because i make a research can be debunked by another researcher. supposing i say sperm produces baby . it is a fact with evidence.

Edenoscar:
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed, preferably using a written, pre-defined, protocol of observations and experiments. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.
By wikipedia

Hope this helps

Edenoscar:





Hope this helps

base on the same Wikipedia report. this is what is called fact and this is why is difference from theory.


Afactis something that is postulated to have occurred or to be correct. The usual test for a statement of fact isverifiability—that is, whether it can be demonstrated to correspond toexperience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts.Scientificfacts are verified by repeatable careful observation or measurement (byexperimentsor other means).another source from difference.net


theory and fact


1. Facts are observations whereas theories are the explanations to those observations.

2. Theories are vague truths or unclear facts whereas facts are really facts.

vaxx:
the first paragraph try to summarized your believed. which is basically on evidence rather than assumption. now back to the designing question.

more like intellectual honesty aimed at avoiding to pretend to know what you or anyone really dont know

God(olodumare)by definition according to the Yoruba believe is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question Who created the designer here will be illogical, just like asking for the bachelor marriage certificate? it will be a absurd question. then why is he a bachelor? as you rightly agree that the design need something powerful to get it done. then why doesn't the powerful designer has a designer?, Everything which has a beginning has a creator The universe has beginning therefore the universe has a creator. The universe requires a creator because it had a beginning .God(olodumare)unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn't need a creator.


how can a functional system exist without passing through the hands of an expert?

This basically kills your argument of design, if God an even more complex entity does not require design, you have totally defeated your own premise because you have shown something can exist in a highly intricate form without needing to be design.

So remind me the problem here again?

vaxx:
my dear empirical is all about experience or relevant observation which are just mere phenomenon. logic on the other hands test the observation and evaluate it to get if it is actually practical .

i do not get where you definition of logic comes from, it seems drastically wanting.

if I still remember big bang theory is yet to become a fact.

What is this whole thing about a theory becoming a fact?

theories explain observed facts, thats it.

a theory is no more a fact than a fact is a theory..

vaxx:
no sir. a theory is different front fact. theory is all about hypothesis.

hahahahahaha ok let me see if i can break it down, it's obvious you don't understand it.

a hypothesis: Is a scientific thesis/speculation wanting in observations and predictions
a theory: is a scientific thesis that explains an already observed facts but can be falsified by more observations and predictions of it's own makings

fact is an evidence. supposing i say the sky took its colour from water. simply because i make a research can be debunked by another researcher. supposing i say sperm produces baby . it is an evidence.

gravity is a theory;

the facts that are summarized in this theory includes. orbit, attraction of bodies, mass of objects etc.

observed facts like microwave background radiation, expanding universe, abundance of primary elements (hydrogen and helium) these are the facts and the big bang theory connects the dots, formulates a model that is consistent with these observations.

I am honestly hoping my explanation was coherent enough, i pray it is

johnydon22:
i do not get where you definition of logic comes from, it seems drastically wanting.



What is this whole thing about a theory becoming a fact?

theories explain observed facts, thats it.

a theory is no more a fact than a fact is a theory..

No sir. it is actually in line with the topic of discussion.

.
you can learn more about logic here.

Logic Sleuth. H. Armstrong Roberts/ClassicStock/Archive Photos/Getty

there is overlaps between the two I agree. but they are clearly different in meaning. theory is just an intelligence guess while fact is an established phenomenon

johnydon22:
i do not get where you definition of logic comes from, it seems drastically wanting.



What is this whole thing about a theory becoming a fact?

theories explain observed facts, thats it.

a theory is no more a fact than a fact is a theory..

I think you need to understand it. you are actually overlapping.




In science, an idea starts out as a hypothesis as to why or how something is hpening. Those hypotheses undergo a lot of experimental trials in various ways and data is collected. Over time, as more and more data is collected, a hypothesis can be a scientific theory. The more a hypothesis is supported by many different experiments

johnydon22:


hahahahahaha ok let me see if i can break it down, it's obvious you don't understand it.

a hypothesis: Is a scientific thesis/speculation wanting in observations and predictions
a theory: is a scientific thesis that explains an already observed facts but can be falsified by more observations and predictions of it's own makings



gravity is a theory;

the facts that are summarized in this theory includes. orbit, attraction of bodies, mass of objects etc.

observed facts like microwave background radiation, expanding universe, abundance of primary elements (hydrogen and helium) these are the facts and the big bang theory connects the dots, formulates a model that is consistent with these observations.

I am honestly hoping my explanation was coherent enough, i pray it is

I think you need to understand it well. you are overlapping.



In science, an idea starts out as a hypothesis, or guess as to why or how something is happening. Those hypotheses undergo a lot of experimental trials in various ways and data is collected. Over time, as more and more data is collected, a hypothesis can be a scientifics theory. The more a hypothesis is supported by many different experiments and many different experimenters, the stronger the scientific theory. However, scientific theories can change as more data is collected to become scientific fact if the evidence is overwhelming.

johnydon22:


hahahahahaha ok let me see if i can break it down, it's obvious you don't understand it.

a hypothesis: Is a scientific thesis/speculation wanting in observations and predictions
a theory: is a scientific thesis that explains an already observed facts but can be falsified by more observations and predictions of it's own makings



gravity is a theory;

the facts that are summarized in this theory includes. orbit, attraction of bodies, mass of objects etc.

observed facts like microwave background radiation, expanding universe, abundance of primary elements (hydrogen and helium) these are the facts and the big bang theory connects the dots, formulates a model that is consistent with these observations.

I am honestly hoping my explanation was coherent enough, i pray it is

For a quick correction . gravity is a law not theory

johnydon22:


more like intellectual honesty aimed at avoiding to pretend to know what you or anyone really knows




This basically kills your argument of design, if God an even more complex entity does not require design, you have totally defeated your own premise because you have shown something can exist in a highly intricate form without needing to be design.

So remind me the problem here again?

first of all. God is not something. it is not an object or any tangible property. therefore he can not be quantify ,compared or describe. the moment you find an equation to God. then the object stop being God. the traditional faith(olodumare) God for clarification is beyond human understanding base on the IFA teaching

therefore for you saying god is more complex in design will be flawed or less complex because it disagree with IFA touchstone. the touchstone of ifa is the main center of faith(unknown identity )but his reality is overwhelming. I can enlighten you more on it. the design topic is a good example


Yoruba words olo odu ma ire means Owner of the containers of creation and great blessings. anything or definition outside of this is not God.

how can a functional system exist without passing through the hands of an expert?

try the Dohgon University of Thought
we deal with Dohgon Spirituality based on the Dogon tribe of Mali. Professor MOmOh has all the answers you seek

vaxx:
No sir. it is actually in line with the topic of discussion.

.
you can learn more about logic here.

Logic Sleuth. H. Armstrong Roberts/ClassicStock/Archive Photos/Getty

I won't banter over the meaning of logic with you here

there is overlaps between the two I agree. but they are clearly different in meaning. theory is just an intelligence guess while fact is an established phenomenon

nobody have ever argued a theory and fact remains the same i thought i have coherently explained this...