If you were to publish a research paper to show reward of honesty and hard work, what yardsticks would you use to measure this in Nigeria? I'm involved in one and I have headache figuring out who got their wealth genuinely.

The yardsticks will be
1 A verifiable evidence of the person's starting point i.e how much wealth did he inherit/tranfer from predecesors
2 Records of incomes,employments and wages paid by employers
3 Records of tax settlements
4 Records of investments and yields

Now,it is impossible to obtain all such records for ANY Nigerian.
Even if you do,you will realize that no wealthy Nigerian is clean.

All the same,happy researching.

Thanks for your reply. I don't think it'll be right to make a sweeping statement that no Nigerian is clean.

I hope others will contribute as well.

Before proceeding,what do you think of those 4 yardsticks i posted?Do you think they are appropriate?Because I am also very interested not only in the outcome of the research but in having a framework for future assessments.

what I thought of that isn't there is , whether the person has been indicted by colleagues, public or law. what do you think?

helpee2:

what I thought of that isn't there is , whether the person has been indicted by colleagues, public or law. what do you think?

Good thinking. That should be included as well but we have to see that that is limited because our legal system is just a mere political tool and could and can still not really convict a lot of financial and other frauds.

If a person's wealth has been questionable or controversial then you shouldn't be included among genuine rich people. You don't need to be convicted and of course politically motivated indictment could easily be discerned. Thanks all the same.

Ok.Ride on.Please keep me posted.

Forensic auditing will never do it.
Try Philanthropy-True wealth spreads Philanthropy around. Hospitals,Sports Competitions,Scholarships irrespective of Tribal affiliation.
Falsely gotten wealth donates exclusively to Village Associations/Hometowns/Political Parties.

Humility.
I've never met a humble thief/Ritualist. they're in ur face all the time. in the news constantly.
True wealth is quiet. the owner realises he's a Custodian only.

trisurface, it seems you don't understand the purpose of the topic. What I want to know is in what ways can you use to know that a rich Nigerian got their money honestly. We're not looking at how he spends it because that is difficult to measure. Anybody can spend his money the way he wants since he owns it.

I'm doing a research, what are the criteria I should use to measure? See the suggestions above as a guide

Well,
Perhaps U shld track how he spends it. Expenditure is in the Public Domain. Frequently, income isnt. Thats why VAT is more successful than Income Tax.
Everything that Validator sent in can be faked/corrupted.
How the So called wealth is used cannot be faked. Note that Spending patterns emerge even in a Money Laundering scheme.

We are coming at the same problem from 2 aspects. U're interested in How accounting & legal ramifications can prove the veracity of Wealth.
I'm coming froma sociological angle into an Accounting angle. I say how he spends establishes & invites a case to be opened on how he got it.

My Tuppence.

Most personal expenditure are not documented. That makes it difficult to measure. May be you can break it down for my understanding because you seem logical but I don't quite get it.

trisurface:

Well,
Perhaps U shld track how he spends it. Expenditure is in the Public Domain. Frequently, income isnt. Thats why VAT is more successful than Income Tax.
Everything that Validator sent in can be faked/corrupted.
How the So called wealth is used cannot be faked. Note that Spending patterns emerge even in a Money Laundering scheme.

We are coming at the same problem from 2 aspects. U're interested in How accounting & legal ramifications can prove the veracity of Wealth.
I'm coming froma sociological angle into an Accounting angle. I say how he spends establishes & invites a case to be opened on how he got it.

My Tuppence.

I quite disagree with the statement in bold.Philanthropy can easily be faked.
Political office holders steal the money that belongs to the people and do a lot of "philanthropy" from it.
People defraud their companies and donate a lot to the churches and mosques.They are very humble until when yawa gas ! Abiola/Murtala spent a lot of the money they stole from Nigeria on the common Nigerian citizen in the name of philantropy.
Philanthropy can easily be faked.
While the yardsticks I outlined earlier will work in a developed country,it is practically impossible to execute in Nigeria because it involves "records" and as you are aware,we don't keep records.
I don't see it working.However,helpee2 may still be able to find a way.Nobody knows it all.

there is no genuine wealth (as we understand it) in nigeria. don't be deceived. we have people who have never been corrupt. we have them and many of them are comfortable but they are not popular as their bank balances are only modest. but those who have wealth and are known, forget it. they are corrupt. very corrupt! those who have properties - home and abroad, are corrupt by default.

if you don't agree, please reveal a name here, and, i will dig that person up for you.
ok?

Ola,

What do you think about people like Christopher Kolade, Pst. E.A. Adeboye, Pst Sam Adeyemi, Dr. Sunny Ojeagbese, Ohiwere of Unilever,etc? Don't think of only politicians, govt contractors or billionaires that have no base. We are looking at people you can use to encourage younger ones that hard work, patience, doggedness, consistence, etc pay so Nigeria can be like America, UK and other responsible nations. Surely it is possible to have a billion without being cooked.

Please let your reply be constructive and based on plausible claims not on sentiments.

^^^^^^^^^
i am not ready to engage nigerians when it comes to discussing pastors. it is usually emotion-ladened and devoid of substance. sorry about that.
kolade is more or less a politician these days. you don't become a high commissioner without being one. a lot goes into a job like that. about ojiagbese and ohiweri; i have to do a bit of investigation. i know them as businessmen though. and, i think ojiagbese is also a contractor. i don't really see them as wealthy as we understand wealth in nigeria. they are comfortable, i guess. can they afford 6 children at oxford university at once? do they have up to 2 properties each in london and america (all our top politicians have these)? i still need to do a bit more of work. but, most nigerians would agree, they don't belong to the list of top 500 wealthy nigerians.
got the point?

and a person does not have to be indicted to be corrupt. has obasanjo been indicted? ibb, tukur, tinubu, buhari, osoba, saraki? or even pat utomi?the list is endless.

If i am to suggest a yardstick, i will use the following:

1. The value of their companies or quoted stock
2. The number of job created

In my point of view, the yardsticks that are used to measure Nigerians who earned their wealth genuinely way might be high yield of his investments, property acquisition and also how much his company is worth. Although in this country, some people believe that when someone is wealthy, they might be thinking that the person might be into fraud or ritual but not all wealthy Nigerians are like that.

the yardstick,
this is a very simple yardstick:
tell us the person's name;
his background and that of his family;
when the he/she first go into business or start his professional career (most nigerians don't start anything meaningful until late 20's)?;
what was his/her profit/salary then?;
when was that?;
what is his/her income/salary now?;
when did the turnaround come about in his life that he is now worth billions?;
how did it happen (the story)?;
how much is he/she/family worth then?;
how much is he/she/family worth now?;
his/her business line;
his suppliers/customers?;

by the time you have provided answers to all these, you would be stared on by some grumpy skeletons.

helpee2:

If you were to publish a research paper to show reward of honesty and hard work, what yardsticks would you use to measure this in Nigeria? I'm involved in one and I have headache figuring out who got their wealth genuinely.

Problem started when you equated reward of hard work with wealth. But that is for another day.
Can you define what you mean by honesty and hard work please. And don't find it simple as this would be the real catalyst that would produce fruitful result for your research.

Holla!

Precap2,

I'm surprised that u don't believe there's reward for hard work but like u said we'll leave it for another day.

Honest here means without cheating, stealing or any unethical means of earning an income. I know u understand me but u want to make an academic issue out of it. It's about problem resolution and not a parliamentary issue where arguments hold sway. Pls suggest how we can measure it to be able to advise people after us to make this nation a better place. Our friends and relatives are running away to other countries where accountability is the order of the day. We should be able to initiate something here to better our society. That's the purpose of the research and discourse.

Hard work will mean that the person in question didn't just wake up one morning and became rich. He passed through a process of learning, making mistakes, failing at times, but kept at what he was doing and finally made something out of it. Wealth or success in my definition is not being unable to count your money but being able to take care of u and ur family needs, building people to get out of poverty, giving back to society and most of all being a good example to others. What can we say of people like Balarabe Musa, Abubakar Umar, David Tam West, Wole Soyinka, Femi Falana, Late Gani Fawehinmi, Agbakoba, Fashola, etc. You are not likely to find an angel in any part of the world.

helpee2:

Precap2,

I'm surprised that u don't believe there's reward for hard work but like u said we'll leave it for another day.

Honest here means without cheating, stealing or any unethical means of earning an income. I know u understand me but u want to make an academic issue out of it. It's about problem resolution and not a parliamentary issue where arguments hold sway. Pls suggest how we can measure it to be able to advise people after us to make this nation a better place. Our friends and relatives are running away to other countries where accountability is the order of the day. We should be able to initiate something here to better our society. That's the purpose of the research and discourse.

Did I really say there was no reward for hard work? Forgive me if I did but I think what I said was equating reward for hard work with wealth. I still don't think they mean the same.
I am hardly academic in my approach to things, so your charge of academic doesn't apply, only that I've seen discussion that would have otherwise produced useful results degenerate to endless definitions because terms were not defined from beginning.
Since you're talking about honesty and hard work in terms of wealth, may I inform you that your definition of honest thus: (Honest here means without cheating, stealing or any unethical means of earning an income.) basically excludes every living rich human I know all over the world. You can give me just one example and all will be well.
Please don't give me a rich man from any religious book, we can't research them.

Holla!

Precap2,

See my poster immediately after the one u commented on. Look at the list of people mentioned therein and make your comments

The list you referred to might be this: Balarabe Musa, Abubakar Umar, David Tam West, Wole Soyinka, Femi Falana, Late Gani Fawehinmi, Agbakoba, Fashola, etc.

I might not have a dossier on them but I'll ask around. But. . .
1. Balarabe Musa was the first impeached governor in Nigeria (if I remember well, I could be wrong). He was governor of Kaduna state. The list of his sins then were read to him and he found it difficult to clear his name of any wrong doing and was impeached. And that was when Naija was not playing this kind of dog eat dog politics.
2. Abubakar Umar was a MILAD (I'm not so sure now) but if he is who I'm thinking about, then all military boys that became rich stole from our coffers. I intend to keep this generalization until proven wrong.
3. Wole Shoyinka. . . hmmmmmm, wait till I have more facts. His case is as twisted as he is.
4. Femi Falana and Gani Fawehinmi are in the same business, using NGOs to make money abroad without spending it on the purpose. That doesn't sound very honest to me. I would have specifically mention a $200,000 issue concerning Late Mr Fawehinmi but. . . hey. . . speak no evil of the dead.
5. Agbakoba can wait till later, but. . .
6. Fashola built the biggest house in his family in Surulere after he became governor. You need to see this house and questions will begin. I was shown the house when I was around town and singing his praises like media men.

. . . More to come as I research.

Holla!

Precap2,

You could have seen me laughing!

Are u saying no Nigerian earned his success or wealth by honest means? Just bear in mind that even in the so called developed world, u won't get an angel. Angels belong to the heavenly realm. Now let me tell u a little about some of the people I mentioned:

1. Balarabe Musa was impeached because NPN had majority in the State House of Assembly and he was voted Governor on PRP ticket. From the 1960s he had always stood on the side of alimajiri- the poor. There was no empirical thing against him. It was purely political.
2. Abubakar Umar was surely a Military Administrator. He did something that very few people anywhere in the world would ever do. He applied for his Masters degree programme as a Governor. He chose to leave the position of a governor to pursue a Masters degree. How many people can do that? He valued a Masters degree to that position. If he was a corrupt and an unclean person, he would never do such a thing. Also, since he left the military, he has always spoken out about the wrongs of the govts we've been having. Nobody has ever cast any aspersion on his person or government.
3. Wole Soyinka may have began what has turned out to be cultism in the university but he has always lived above board. When he established Road Safety Commission, it worked well. I remember that defaulters were issued tickets on the spot to pay fines to the bank not what obtains today.
4.Fashola- that's good information about him. but ask any Lagosian who has really been a governor in Lagos State and he won't waste a minute to say it's Fashola. Lagos was the dirtiest state before he came to power but it has moved up in scale. The roads are better, Oshodi traffic jam that was unresolvable has been resolved. If you have ever been to Lagos, Lagos you would know that before he came to power some roads there were not used by motorists but that's history now. He is the only governor that does not drive people away with siren he using the road. He doesn't entertain owambe to launch any of his projects, especially during official hours. there's more about him I can't go on. He's touched the lives of Lagosians and the politicians don't like it. So they've started a campaign of calumny against him but the ordinary Lagosian like me knows he has no equal yet.
5. As for Falana and the activists I haven't heard of them not using money meant for group activities personally. What I know is that they have been in and out of detention and are still willing to do so till death. how many of us can withstand that? I used to work for govt and there was a time they had a campaign against Falana that he inherited his uncle's chambers and deprived his cousins of their father's estate. They asked that we paste them in all campuses but some of us knew it was a lie and didn't do it. What I'm saying is if there was anything against them, govt will be the first to use it against them.

However, our aim is to bring out people that will encourage the younger ones about accountability and hard work as bases for success. Don't we have role models in Nigeria at all? How do we get them?

Hello all,
Please let us clearly establish the yardsticks before we begin to analyze each wealthy individual.

VALIDATOR:

The yardsticks will be
1 A verifiable evidence of the person's starting point i.e how much wealth did he inherit/tranfer from predecesors
2 Records of incomes,employments and wages paid by employers
3 Records of tax settlements
4 Records of investments and yields

Now,it is impossible to obtain all such records for ANY Nigerian.
Even if you do,you will realize that no wealthy Nigerian is clean.

All the same,happy researching.

Also,we must clearly define wealth.How much money do we call wealth. N10billion,N1 billion naira,N500Million,or what?

in this world, if you are not an inventor like zuckerberg, head of of a multinational like APPLE, or an international investment bank boss e.g goldman sachs, then you can't be wealthy without 'deals'.
that tells you that 99.9% of wealthy people are not clean.
chikena on this topic!

VALIDATOR,

I'm looking at people who can go wherever they want to go, buy whatever they want to buy and may not need to work for the rest of their life no matter their present age. In other words, financial independence and that could be in different categories. If you have a business that nets (not gross) 1m monthly you could be considered successful. the number of the millions do not really matter except we're looking for the richest. but that's not our aim here. So look within this parameter and we'll be heading somewhere.
I love your first suggestion. If we continue in that direction we'll get somewhere.
Thanks for a lively discussion.

helpee2:

VALIDATOR,

I'm looking at people who can go wherever they want to go, buy whatever they want to buy and may not need to work for the rest of their life no matter their present age. In other words, financial independence and that could be in different categories. If you have a business that nets (not gross) 1m monthly you could be considered successful. the number of the millions do not really matter except we're looking for the richest. but that's not our aim here. So look within this parameter and we'll be heading somewhere.
I love your first suggestion. If we continue in that direction we'll get somewhere.
Thanks for a lively discussion.

We have just avoided a pitfall.
If it is just N1m/month then we should be able to get a handful of people who got it legitimately.N1m/month is just about USD 80,000 per year at the rate of NGN 150=USD 1.That is not what most nigerians will consider as wealth. I was actually thinking in terms of billions of naira per year.

VALIDATOR,

Consider that an entry point but not limited to it. The bracket is elastic but let's not just focus on the upper upper class. I'm not looking at people who loot to make their descendants redundant. People you can bring out to encourage others. That in spite of his sincerity, labour & all he could still get to that bracket. I believe a man who saves $80k in a yr even in America isn't a poor person.