If you knew enough about the laws of physics, and you had a powerful enough computer, theoretically you could perfectly simulate the entire universe from start to finish. When I say perfect, I mean perfect. In our simulation, every thing that has ever happened in this universe and ever will happen in this universe will happen exactly the same way in our simulation. Every thought that every living being has ever had, every action that every living being has ever taken, will occur in exactly the same manner every single time the simulation is run.
That means that no matter what, all of your thoughts and actions you've ever had and will ever have, have been predetermined by the laws of physics. Nothing you do or think can possibly change that fact because you were always going to have those thoughts and were always going to do those things. Everything you do is because the creator determined that's what you have to do when he set the laws of physics into motion with the Big Bang. You do not have a choice. Free will is an illusion because we are bound by the laws of physics.

The only circumstance in which we wouldn't be bound by the laws of physics is if the creator admitted that his creation was flawed from the start and needed to be modified, so he intervened at some place and time to cause a change in events. In which case free will would still not exist.
Rejection of Yahweh as the demiurge is not something I have chosen. He predetermined that I would be born under the circumstances that I was, and that the chemicals in my brain would react a certain way to cause me to feel this way, and that I would sin.

Taking this argument to its logical conclusion demonstrates that nothing anybody ever does is "evil" because they never had a choice in the first place. It wasn't Hitler's fault that his brain didn't work right and caused him to kill all those people and then himself. The creator forced him to do all of that, so the blame for all evil in the universe can be placed squarely on the creator.

So why is he going to send anyone to a place of eternal torment for everything he forced them to do in the first place? It sounds like he is a sadist who gets off creating beings, forcing them to suffer in this universe, then forcing most of them to experience an incomprehensible amount of suffering in Hell for all eternity after death, and those who are left will be forced to go to "heaven" to be with this maniac for all eternity with the knowledge that their loved ones are experiencing an incomprehensible amount of suffering forever and ever.

Change my view that free will doesn't exist and that Yahweh is actually the Satanic Demiurge.

cool but wrong

YorubaMuslims:
cool but wrong

Ok. Do you mind elaborating?

Free will?

You didn't decide whether to come to this world or not

You cannot resist death when it comes.

You didn't even know that you existed while you were in the womb.

You cannot decide the outcome of your daily life.

God decides the fate of mankind in these aspects.

In decision making, God allows man to do whatever he wants while the Devil deceives man to do evil.

All in all, man is a deciding factor because he has free will and he is therefore punished for his actions.

As HopefulLandlord said, the world is the way Yahweh wants it. If not, he would have changed it given that he is all powerful and all knowing.

Thought provoking

XxSabrinaxX:
If you knew enough about the laws of physics, and you had a powerful enough computer, theoretically you could perfectly simulate the entire universe from start to finish. When I say perfect, I mean perfect. In our simulation, every thing that has ever happened in this universe and ever will happen in this universe will happen exactly the same way in our simulation. Every thought that every living being has ever had, every action that every living being has ever taken, will occur in exactly the same manner every single time the simulation is run.
That means that no matter what, all of your thoughts and actions you've ever had and will ever have, have been predetermined by the laws of physics. Nothing you do or think can possibly change that fact because you were always going to have those thoughts and were always going to do those things. Everything you do is because the creator determined that's what you have to do when he set the laws of physics into motion with the Big Bang. You do not have a choice. Free will is an illusion because we are bound by the laws of physics.

The only circumstance in which we wouldn't be bound by the laws of physics is if the creator admitted that his creation was flawed from the start and needed to be modified, so he intervened at some place and time to cause a change in events. In which case free will would still not exist.
Rejection of Yahweh as the demiurge is not something I have chosen. He predetermined that I would be born under the circumstances that I was, and that the chemicals in my brain would react a certain way to cause me to feel this way, and that I would sin.

Taking this argument to its logical conclusion demonstrates that nothing anybody ever does is "evil" because they never had a choice in the first place. It wasn't Hitler's fault that his brain didn't work right and caused him to kill all those people and then himself. The creator forced him to do all of that, so the blame for all evil in the universe can be placed squarely on the creator.

So why is he going to send anyone to a place of eternal torment for everything he forced them to do in the first place? It sounds like he is a sadist who gets off creating beings, forcing them to suffer in this universe, then forcing most of them to experience an incomprehensible amount of suffering in Hell for all eternity after death, and those who are left will be forced to go to "heaven" to be with this maniac for all eternity with the knowledge that their loved ones are experiencing an incomprehensible amount of suffering forever and ever.

Change my view that free will doesn't exist and that Yahweh is actually the Satanic Demiurge.

I have noticed of late that the Devil has successfully deceived men to think that God is the cause of their woes.

The deceived men are his foot soldiers to fight the almighty at Amagedon.

" And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him."
(Zechariah 3: 1)


Resist here means to accuse him.

The bible calls him the accuser of the brethren.

He deceives the world to sin and accuse them before the holiness of God.

When there is hunger and malnutrition, someone had stolen money meant for thousands of people.... He listened to the devil....

...There are cries of sorrow as a result of killings and loss of loved ones. .....Someone took that decision to shot and kill....

The Devil is responsible for the atrocities of mankind... But mankind should be punished since he has the free will to reject the devil's suggestions.

Why don't we accept to do good since we have free will?

This is why mankind will be punished.

Originakalokalo:



I have noticed of late that the Devil has successfully deceived men to think that God is the cause of their woes.

The deceived men are his foot soldiers to fight the almighty at Amagedon.

" And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him."
(Zechariah 3: 1)


Resist here means to accuse him.

The bible calls him the accuser of the brethren.

He deceives the world to sin and accuse them before the holiness of God.

When there is hunger and malnutrition, someone had stolen money meant for thousands of people.... He listened to the devil....

...There are cries of sorrow as a result of killings and loss of loved ones. .....Someone took that decision to shot and kill....

The Devil is responsible for the atrocities of mankind... But mankind should be punished since he has the free will to reject the devil's suggestions.

Why don't we accept to do good since we have free will?

This is why mankind will be punished.

I chose to ignore you previously but your blatant ignorance on the subject needs to be called out.

"Why don't we accept to do good since we have free will"
Are you sure you even read my first post? Or you just skipped it to rant about my lack of belief for your fairytales because of your dogma and intolerance?

Do you mind explain to me how freewill can occur in a universe where every event has been predetermined by an omniscient creator?

Ranting about my unbelief is helping neither you or me. So if you have nothing else to say, don't let your stubborn ignorance disgrace you here. Just leave, quietly.

XxSabrinaxX:

I chose to ignore you previously but your blatant ignorance on the subject needs to be called out.

Let's leave this part.

XxSabrinaxX:

"Why don't we accept to do good since we have free will"
Are you sure you even read my first post? Or you just skipped it to rant about my lack of belief for your fairytales because of your dogma and intolerance?

Let's leave this part too.

XxSabrinaxX:

Do you mind explain to me how freewill can occur in a universe where every event has been predetermined by an omniscient creator?

A man can decide to wake up in the morning and commit suicide... He takes the decision.

Another can decide to commit adultery or fornication for his pleasure.....He or she takes this decision.

You decided to insult me because you think you have the power to do that....You took that decision. Did the almighty asked you to insult me?

Man is responsible for all his actions.... The devil deceives him to do that for the obvious repercussions...But he decides to obey....

XxSabrinaxX:

Ranting about my unbelief is helping neither you or me. So if you have nothing else to say, don't let your stubborn ignorance disgrace you here. Just leave, quietly.

I have decided not to insult you in return because I have decided to obey the one that lives in me.

He is greater than the deceiver that lives in the world.



To everyone,

The Devil is a lair, a their, and an accuser of the people.

Don't be deceived by him.

Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Do good, resist evil and obey the law. You have the freewill to do this.

God bless you all.

I happen to take a compatibilists view of the free will debate, mainly because it seems to take into account both the deterministic nature of the universe and our apparent agency in making choices.

Free will means you are allowed to suffer.
Just make sure it is not obvious.
Reality is a bitch.

XxSabrinaxX:
If you knew enough about the laws of physics, and you had a powerful enough computer, theoretically you could perfectly simulate the entire universe from start to finish. When I say perfect, I mean perfect. In our simulation, every thing that has ever happened in this universe and ever will happen in this universe will happen exactly the same way in our simulation. Every thought that every living being has ever had, every action that every living being has ever taken, will occur in exactly the same manner every single time the simulation is run.
That means that no matter what, all of your thoughts and actions you've ever had and will ever have, have been predetermined by the laws of physics. Nothing you do or think can possibly change that fact because you were always going to have those thoughts and were always going to do those things. Everything you do is because the creator determined that's what you have to do when he set the laws of physics into motion with the Big Bang. You do not have a choice. Free will is an illusion because we are bound by the laws of physics.

The only circumstance in which we wouldn't be bound by the laws of physics is if the creator admitted that his creation was flawed from the start and needed to be modified, so he intervened at some place and time to cause a change in events. In which case free will would still not exist.
Rejection of Yahweh as the demiurge is not something I have chosen. He predetermined that I would be born under the circumstances that I was, and that the chemicals in my brain would react a certain way to cause me to feel this way, and that I would sin.

Taking this argument to its logical conclusion demonstrates that nothing anybody ever does is "evil" because they never had a choice in the first place. It wasn't Hitler's fault that his brain didn't work right and caused him to kill all those people and then himself. The creator forced him to do all of that, so the blame for all evil in the universe can be placed squarely on the creator.

So why is he going to send anyone to a place of eternal torment for everything he forced them to do in the first place? It sounds like he is a sadist who gets off creating beings, forcing them to suffer in this universe, then forcing most of them to experience an incomprehensible amount of suffering in Hell for all eternity after death, and those who are left will be forced to go to "heaven" to be with this maniac for all eternity with the knowledge that their loved ones are experiencing an incomprehensible amount of suffering forever and ever.

Change my view that free will doesn't exist and that Yahweh is actually the Satanic Demiurge.

You are too bitter my friend. Bitterness dulls the brain. This won't take you anywhere.

Freewill can exist in a predetermined universe. There are two choices for mankind in the universe: live a righteous or wicked life...You either choose good or evil. If there exists no freewill no one will go to Heaven.

FAQ: If God already knows who will end up in hellfire why did he create them in the first place? I don't know.. . He probably created them for a purpose. A hell bound soul is nothing but a zombified soul.
(Bible calls eternal destruction "second death" by the way.)
Unrepentant souls deserve second death. They lack empathy and feel no remorse. They have been zombified by the devil. They do not care about eternal destruction else they'll repent. Don't feel sorry for the wicked, they feel nothing and deserve nothing. .

Originakalokalo:


Let's leave this part.



Let's leave this part too.



A man can decide to wake up in the morning and commit suicide... He takes the decision.

Another can decide to commit adultery or fornication for his pleasure.....He or she takes this decision.

You decided to insult me because you think you have the power to do that....You took that decision. Did the almighty asked you to insult me?

Man is responsible for all his actions.... The devil deceives him to do that for the obvious repercussions...But he decides to obey....



I have decided not to insult you in return because I have decided to obey the one that lives in me.

He is greater than the deceiver that lives in the world.



To everyone,

The Devil is a lair, a their, and an accuser of the people.

Don't be deceived by him.

Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

God bless you all.

Your post makes no damn sense. Its almost like you don't even read my posts before replying.

If an omniscient being should create a man, the actions of said man have already been predetermined by the omniscient creator. See Psalms 139:1-4, 44:21.
If a man chooses to take his life, God is aware of it because his knowledge has no limits.
Conclusion: If an omniscient creator like God exists, then free will cannot also exist. These are mutually exclusive properties. I've done my best to explain where i'm coming from, its left for you and your christian crew to understand.

A good question to ask is:

Does Yahwah (or insert any god that pleases you) have Free Will?

In other words is he faced with options that he has to choose from. And the choices he makes, could he have chosen not to make them.

In other words is Yahweh (or whatever god) bound by his character and circumstances to act in a certain manner or is he free to even act outside of character.

When we settle the matter with Yahweh or whoever then we can move on to lesser issues like the free will of Humankind.

XxSabrinaxX:

Your post makes no damn sense. Its almost like you don't even read my posts before replying.

If an omniscient being should create a man, the actions of said man have already been predetermined by the omniscient creator. See Psalms 139:1-4, 44:21.
If a man chooses to take his life, God is aware of it because his knowledge has no limits.
Conclusion: If an omniscient creator like God exists, then free will cannot also exist. These are mutually exclusive properties. I've done my best to explain where i'm coming from, its left for you and your christian crew to understand.

OpenYourEyes1:


You are too bitter my friend. Bitterness dulls the brain. This won't take you anywhere.

Freewill can exist in a predetermined universe. There are two choices for mankind in the universe: live a righteous or wicked life...You either choose good or evil. If there exists no freewill no one will go to Heaven.

FAQ: If God already knows who will end up in hellfire why did he create them in the first place? I don't know.. . He probably created them for a purpose. A hell bound soul is nothing but a zombified soul.
(Bible calls eternal destruction "second death" by the way.)
Unrepentant souls deserve second death. They lack empathy and feel no remorse. They have been zombified by the devil. They do not care about eternal destruction else they'll repent. Don't feel sorry for the wicked, they feel nothing and deserve nothing. .

Why would an "all loving" god create a human just so he can condemn him to hell?
Where's the fairness in that?

Free will can NOT exist in a predetermined universe because every action you take has already been predetermined. God is aware of all the choices you are about to take BEFORE you even take them.

It's amazing how after two threads, even YOU have not managed to solve this riddle.

PastorAIO:
A good question to ask is:

Does Yahwah (or insert any god that pleases you) have Free Will?

In other words is he faced with options that he has to choose from. And the choices he makes, could he have chosen not to make them.

In other words is Yahweh (or whatever god) bound by his character and circumstances to act in a certain manner or is he free to even act outside of character.

When we settle the matter with Yahweh or whoever then we can move on to lesser issues like the free will of Humankind.

And what's your answer to that question?

XxSabrinaxX:

And what's your answer to that question?

Character is Destiny
- Heraclitus (535bce-475bce)

Heraclitus believed that a person’s character is their fate. Character — the sum total of a person’s traits — influences the choices a person makes, and the consequences of those choices ultimately become that person’s destiny.

https://bertramsblog.com/2012/10/20/character-as-fate-and-fate-as-character/

PastorAIO:


Character is Destiny
- Heraclitus (535bce-475bce)


https://bertramsblog.com/2012/10/20/character-as-fate-and-fate-as-character/

So... you're saying God has free will then?

In other words do we have Character. Yes indeed, we are defined by our character. Does our character determine our actions and the choices we make. Yes indeed it does.

Does God have a Character?

Of course, otherwise God would be featureless, non existent.

Therefore along with everything else in the universe that has character and is bound to act according its character God (whichever one) cannot exercise freedom of Will but rather will act in that manner prescribed by his Character.

Just like it is the character of dried leaves to catch fire when you put a flame to them due to the very nature of what dried leaves are.

XxSabrinaxX:

So... you're saying God has free will then?

If you believe God to be without Character and absolutely featureless. In other words if you believe God to be nonexistent then yes he would have free will then.

PastorAIO:


If you believe God to be without Character and absolutely featureless. In other words if you believe God to be nonexistent then yes he would have free will then.

What's YOUR own take on this?

XxSabrinaxX:

What's YOUR own take on this?

I take it to be absolutely correct.

XxSabrinaxX:

Your post makes no damn sense. Its almost like you don't even read my posts before replying.

If an omniscient being should create a man, the actions of said man have already been predetermined by the omniscient creator. See Psalms 139:1-4, 44:21.
If a man chooses to take his life, God is aware of it because his knowledge has no limits.
Conclusion: If an omniscient creator like God exists, then free will cannot also exist. These are mutually exclusive properties. I've done my best to explain where i'm coming from, its left for you and your christian crew to understand.

OK.

Originakalokalo:



I have noticed of late that the Devil has successfully deceived men to think that God is the cause of their woes.

The deceived men are his foot soldiers to fight the almighty at Amagedon.

" And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him."
(Zechariah 3: 1)


Resist here means to accuse him.

The bible calls him the accuser of the brethren.

He deceives the world to sin and accuse them before the holiness of God.

When there is hunger and malnutrition, someone had stolen money meant for thousands of people.... He listened to the devil....

...There are cries of sorrow as a result of killings and loss of loved ones. .....Someone took that decision to shot and kill....

The Devil is responsible for the atrocities of mankind... But mankind should be punished since he has the free will to reject the devil's suggestions.

Why don't we accept to do good since we have free will?

This is why mankind will be punished.

The devil must be more powerful than God then. If not, how can a supposedly omnipotent God stand so helpless while the devil is decimating all his supposedly beloved creatures

Jman06:
The devil must be more powerful than God then. If not, how can a supposedly omnipotent God stand so helpless while the devil is decimating all his supposedly beloved creatures

You have a choice to listen to the devil or to God.

Accept Jesus as your Lord and saviour and be saved.

Through Jesus, you will be able to say No to the devil's suggestions.

Originakalokalo:

OK.

Good

XxSabrinaxX:

Your post makes no damn sense. Its almost like you don't even read my posts before replying.

If an omniscient being should create a man, the actions of said man have already been predetermined by the omniscient creator. See Psalms 139:1-4, 44:21.
If a man chooses to take his life, God is aware of it because his knowledge has no limits.
Conclusion: If an omniscient creator like God exists, then free will cannot also exist. These are mutually exclusive properties. I've done my best to explain where i'm coming from, its left for you and your christian crew to understand.

Man is no computer that can be programmed to function in a certain way. God determines no ones action. Are you trying to tell me that Adam was programmed to eat the forbidden fruit?

bloodofthelamb:


Man is no computer that can be programmed to function in a certain way. God determines no ones action. Are you trying to tell me that Adam was programmed to eat the forbidden fruit?

Given that God is omniscient and Adam was created by him, the answer is YES. Adam was programmed by God to eat the forbidden fruit.

XxSabrinaxX:

Given that God is omniscient and Adam was created by him, the answer is YES. Adam was programmed by God to eat the forbidden fruit.

First of all, what is the meaning of omniscient?

Originakalokalo:


You have a choice to listen to the devil or to God.

Accept Jesus as your Lord and saviour and be saved.

Through Jesus, you will be able to say No to the devil's suggestions.

I wonder why God would create devil, humans, sin, good, bad, freewill and then put all into this same planet earth. And then still expect man to live sinless life.

It's either he is a sadist who takes pleasure in seeing man suffer eternal pains in hellfire or he is not as powerful as Christians want us to believe. Or he simply does not exist!

bloodofthelamb:


First of all, what is the meaning of omniscient?

Well, according to vocabulary.com(srsly use the internet, don't be asking me these kind of questions):

Omniscience comes from the Latin omnis meaning "all" and scientia meaning "knowledge."
Omniscience is a state of possessing all the knowledge there is — pretty impressive. In a religious sense, people believe in a higher being that has omniscience. In literature, omniscience can refer to the perspective of a narrator who is all-knowing or has the ability to see into the minds of all his characters.

Jman06:
I wonder why God would create devil, humans, sin, good, bad, freewill and then put all into this same planet earth. And then still expect man to live sinless life.

It's either he is a sadist who takes pleasure in seeing man suffer eternal pains in hellfire or he is not as powerful as Christians want us to believe. Or he simply does not exist!

OK.

Peace..