First, Im Metaphysical and addressing you as that; I dont know why you made a leap from Metaphysical to all these other identities. Can you clarify your reason or why you think calling me any name other than Metaphysical adds any credit to, or take away anything from the points I raised.

Second, please clearly identify your purpose when making contributions on this topic. There are three sides on the issue of Yoruba origin. The academic side is the most popular but it is also the least informed or least knowledgeable on the truth of Yoruba origin. When confronted, the academicians give us a list of writings on Yoruba history, forgetting that these writings themselves subsist on the truthful oral records. Any writing on Yoruba history, however excellent its penmanship, is baselined on oral recounts. Where the writer meets with unresolved inquiry, the gap is filled with his own imagination drawing from his academic training. This is embellishment. It is no just the author that embellishes, oral historians are not immune from the same human ideals calling forth and evoking the spirit to extoll and praise, or to belittle and crush.

Therefore the aspects of Yoruba history that readers, audience and consumers are fed via a medium of narration; written records or oral records, must naturally be expected to be colorful and tainted with exaggeration or suppression. It cannot be thrown out wholesale, but must be validated and supported and reinforced by aspects which do not require a medium to be understood. In other words, there are aspects which need human interpretation to be understood and there are aspects of Yoruba which are self-evident in their own truthfullness, and they are unaffected by any exagerration or suppression.

These self-evident truths has always been my interest and focus here. I have read many of these books and journals you listed, as well Mahaman Gaani's narration of his people and their roots. I have also gone into the Ajami version of Sultan Bello's story on Yoruba. I have covered the entire book called Negroland of The Arabs and read Batutta's and Khaldun's accounts. Ibn Khaldun was a Sufi and his views greatly reflects it. The Golden Bough...and many other books on myths, mysteries, cults, magics and all many other writings at universal level often use the law of average to conclude on the collective psychology of a race. They study and research cultures the same way they conduct population headcount...statistical average!

Yoruba is not an average culture, its an exceptional civilization and until we have study disciplines like we do Egyptology, Greek, Latin, Roman, the secrets of Yoruba origin remains concealed to those writing and analysing it purely on academic scale.

I simply do not talk or share my views from an academic standpoint because as Ive said, it is less authentic than the pure elementals in which the truth of Yoruba origin is cemented and readily visible. We see it in arts, sounds, letters, rootwords, worship rituals, ancient landmarks and even names.

The problem some of you academic analysts have is you want to be authority on Yoruba, and anyone who does not share in your views and approach is immediately branded "conjectural"; "speculative"; "conspiracy theorist"; "unintelligent", and so on. Yet, as many initiatives as has been taken by people like myself, amor4ce, tony_spike; prexios, to evoke interest and bring what we individually know into a common basket and point of aggregation from which readers can filter and take what they need or contribute they have, I am yet to see any post created by any on the other side to probe the validity of the root question.

Perharps you opened a topic on Benin Art & Architecture which prompted Lakal to open a corresponding one on Yoruba. Then midstream TerraCotta had to come in to show off the academic argument. I will be intimidated if Im not well versed in the literatures of Yoruba history.

Each side has its part to play in the quest, Im playing mine humbly and I never assert any authority but I will challenge anybody to a step by step re enactment and retracing of Yoruba footprints from Ife back to its root in AfroAsia.

Enjoy your time off, be well and see you on return.

MetaPhysical: This is exactly my point, you answered my question from a textbook approach. Knowledge of self must transcend dictionaries, google, wiki, textbooks, and so on.

The head of Ifa worldwide is Araba; but what does Araba mean?

Rabbi is a priest of the Jewish faith but what does Rabbi mean?

Arab is the name of a race but what does Arab stand for?

Yoruba, Bariba, Yauri, Babur; these are all ethnic groups in Nigeria. Bariba people talk about Kisra and in that legend they share that the Yoruba, Bariba and Babur are all one people dating back to Assyria. In Yoruba we have the legend of Asara reliving the Assyrian experience between Abraham and Nimrod.

Could Yoruba, Bariba and Babur people all be lying about their origin in Assyria?

Yoruba, Bariba and Babur share similar facial marks and body tattoo; are each city dwellers; are ruler-states and each had a thriving Kingdom.

Robin Law and all other profiled writers missed this important link between the three most important Kingdoms of Nigeria..

The Samuel Johnson's book in circulation is a bridged version of the original. What is it in the original version that the European publishers did not want in public knowledge? We will never know but there is enough of what we know to convince that Yoruba had a footprint in AfroAsia. If Yoruba's oral history is not credible enough for acceptance, is the Bariba's and the Babur's supporting history of a shared Yoruba origin also unacceptable?

Let's explore something else. Look at the following. These are traditional rites on one hand by Yoruba traditional worshippers and on the other by Muslims.

When on the knees (Orukun in Yoruba) Muslims call it Rukuh. When facedown on the ground (S'oju de or F'ori ba'le in Yoruba) Muslims call it Sajjada.

What are the connecting links between rites of worship in Ifa and in Islam? How did Yoruba oral historians, uneducated and unlettered, know about Assyria (Asara) and Midyan (Mondiana) ?

Are we still in doubt about the authenticity of their records?

I have to ask again for a non-textbook meaning of Araba, Arab, Yoruba and Rabbi.

There are two roots - Ra - and - Ba -

I'm going to keep this short:

I understand where you're arguing from, you showcased this in a thread with Prexios which is good, but I must say the angle from which you're arguing from doesn't interest me - Why? Because I'm no linguist, etymologist or historical linguist so it is useless trying to break down sounds, tongues, accents etc to connect one group with another. I'm going to assume you're one of specialists I listed? If yes then it would be nice to watch you break things in a conving way and if possible with links - you have the floor sir.

Furthermore, I've not read nor done a study on Yauri, Bariba or Babur. I'll do my research and see what I can find. And no I've never heard of Asara in Yoruba history - could you share something on this?

Ifa worship and Islam are at opposite ends, lets not even venture into that.

If you're dealing with this solely from the linguistic aspect then good. Educate some of us who have never looked into history from that angle.

Lastly, I'm solely against the Hamitic Hypothesis school. I'm so myopic and close minded about it, so trying to debate or convince it won't get anywhere sir. I still say where the people who settled in Ile-Ife pre-Oduduwa era origins be left while other things are focused on.

This is an open forum, 9ja. I do not come here to convince anyone, I come in to share in knowledge. Im firm on what I believe and I know well that other beliefs exist beside mine, I do not preach but I share.

If we don't know what Arab means how are we then to intelligently reject Araba or Yoruba or Rabbi as a proto-linkage in the ascent root of ancient Arabs?

Are there any other people in black Africa that have an Araba in their priesthood? If they exist Im yet to know but Im open to learn.

We cannot hide behind academic writings for evidence and say they are conclusive when, in open discussions like this one, no one on the academic side have any personal input to add outside of the author's opinion. It beats logic!

Leo Frobenius is touted by European society as an expert on African studies but in reality he is not. He set out to collect cave paintings and graphics in North Africa because back in his home country at the time successful studies in Egypt dynasties and antiquity was a door to fame and prominence and status. In North Africa he ended up with other Europeans who have ventured into the interior of Africa and looted and pirated artifacts and heirlooms. He began a new career at that point...to go into interior of Africa and find his own treasureland to loot. In Ife and in Bini, there are accounts of treasures carted away fraudulently by Frobenius. Yet many Eurocentric writers find this pirate credible and use his writings and view of the locals for reference.

Mungo Park is celebrated in our school textbook but Mr Park was another looter and pirate who met his end in Bussa. Why do we celebrate him in our history, what is his relevance to the history of Yoruba, Igbo or Hausa or any other ethnic group in this country to warrant him a place in our textbook?

De Gregrinous was in North Africa to study crop cultivation and soil types for agricultural research. Somehow he ended up following River Niger and then into Nigeria. He was the one who published the Gaani letter in the link produced by Physics in his last response. What is an agriculturist studying soil type in North Africa doing in Bussa and at the King's palace? He is looking for his own loot.

African kingdoms were sitting treasures, open and welcoming and unsuspicious of the ambitious Europeans arriving to pillage the land under the guise of exploration. Overnight, they become essay writers and experts and chroniclers of Negro's Africa.

It continues till today. Experts on African issues are paid huge retainership by CNN, Foxnews and Banks. Someone spent 6 months in Kenya, another 8 months in Johannesburg and without stepping foot anywhere else he becomes expert on Africa and make money on a bestseller, full of unapplicable projections.

Anyway, I shouldnt condemn writers and overnight experts too much, they play a role in the economies and i respect that, even though i have no respect for their view on my culture and its origin.

On Asara, I usually do not provide links and reference source to any topic of discussion but i will make exception here for you.

http://books.google.com/books?id=7XSiGw4_qlAC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=asara+legend+of+yoruba&source=bl&ots=u008a1qdNo&sig=V-WLgupK_tU-hrQqdhrYiadgTOk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=f5JuUqnzHYSGyAHtuoGoCQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAg

http://books.google.com/books?id=_FHgHAOp_x4C&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=asara+legend+of+yoruba&source=bl&ots=KliO6-UwCH&sig=X8PLcqcsPtWVZkgH6xUX_52An_M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sJRuUuzeAYm6yAG51YCQBQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAzgK


If you need more info outside of these use the keyword "Asara Legend Yoruba", and filter through.

I would love to show you that Jewish rites is mixed into Ifa rites and that Ifa rites is prototype for Islam rites. Thats still one of my mission to drop that bombshell in here one day. This is not the time for it. Everything in the Old Testament from where Noah was instructed about constructing the Ark of the Covenant to the point where he decreed for his sons is all pure Odus of Ifa. The numbers, the animals, the formulas, the flood, the dimensions, the offerings, the altar and the shrine, the cleansing....everything, even The Ark itself is all footprint for Ifa.

Nairaland is inappropriate for such a revelation.

I enjoyed chatting with you brother.

Does anyone know anything about yoruba exposure to the river niger prior to colonization?

Thats what i was trying to ask on the other thread before some people let their personal issues take over their keyboard.

Tpia,

It became River Niger after colonization. Prior to that the Negro Empires controlled right of way and access to it and monopolized it for trade. There were two sections of the river, and they were Jolibe (Djolibe) and Quorra (Kuora, from which we got Kwara).

Kakanfo was a trading port on the Djolibe and people from differemt parts of the Sudan caravaned there to trade.

Yoruba's influence and power on the Quorra is magnified in the establishment of a military outpost and the creation of the Aare Ona Kakanfo position. Yoruba collected tax on the Quorra.

thanks.

just wondering to what extent exactly yorubas knew of the river niger.

tpia@:
thanks.

just wondering to what extent exactly yorubas knew of the river niger.

The Yoruba name for the Niger is Oya, so it was a known geographic feature. It features heavily in Yoruba myth through the relationship of Sango and Oya (the goddess) as well. Economically, some scholars view it as a kind of trade "highway" of the past as well, possibly sending goods like gold and ivory from areas around Ife to the other centralized economies in the inland Niger Delta (today's Mali).

9jacrip:

I'm going to keep this short:

I understand where you're arguing from, you showcased this in a thread with Prexios which is good, but I must say the angle from which you're arguing from doesn't interest me - Why? Because I'm no linguist, etymologist or historical linguist so it is useless trying to break down sounds, tongues, accents etc to connect one group with another. I'm going to assume you're one of specialists I listed? If yes then it would be nice to watch you break things in a conving way and if possible with links - you have the floor sir.

Furthermore, I've not read nor done a study on Yauri, Bariba or Babur. I'll do my research and see what I can find. And no I've never heard of Asara in Yoruba history - could you share something on this?

Ifa worship and Islam are at opposite ends, lets not even venture into that.

If you're dealing with this solely from the linguistic aspect then good. Educate some of us who have never looked into history from that angle.

Lastly, I'm solely against the Hamitic Hypothesis school. I'm so myopic and close minded about it, so trying to debate or convince it won't get anywhere sir. I still say where the people who settled in Ile-Ife pre-Oduduwa era origins be left while other things are focused on.

Well said.

Yorubas came before Arabs, so why is it that some of you are in this mindset of inferiority complex.

Fulaman198: Yorubas came before Arabs, so why is it that some of you are in this mindset of inferiority complex.

Yoruba were never and are not Arab neither did they come from Arabia - both have nothing in common

9jacrip:

Yoruba were never and are not Arab neither did they come from Arabia - both have nothing in common

I'm quite aware hence what i wrote

TerraCotta:

The Yoruba name for the Niger is Oya, so it was a known geographic feature. It features heavily in Yoruba myth through the relationship of Sango and Oya (the goddess) as well. Economically, some scholars view it as a kind of trade "highway" of the past as well, possibly sending goods like gold and ivory from areas around Ife to the other centralized economies in the inland Niger Delta (today's Mali).

the ife connection might be a bit of a stretch, since ife is centrally located and not near the river niger.


ife seems more concerned with the coast and ocean.

is there any way to find out if yorubas knew the extent of the niger- where it ended. [i suppose they didnt].


also, thanks for answering.

MetaPhysical: This is an open forum, 9ja. I do not come here to convince anyone, I come in to share in knowledge. Im firm on what I believe and I know well that other beliefs exist beside mine, I do not preach but I share.

If we don't know what Arab means how are we then to intelligently reject Araba or Yoruba or Rabbi as a proto-linkage in the ascent root of ancient Arabs?

Are there any other people in black Africa that have an Araba in their priesthood? If they exist Im yet to know but Im open to learn.

We cannot hide behind academic writings for evidence and say they are conclusive when, in open discussions like this one, no one on the academic side have any personal input to add outside of the author's opinion. It beats logic!

Leo Frobenius is touted by European society as an expert on African studies but in reality he is not. He set out to collect cave paintings and graphics in North Africa because back in his home country at the time successful studies in Egypt dynasties and antiquity was a door to fame and prominence and status. In North Africa he ended up with other Europeans who have ventured into the interior of Africa and looted and pirated artifacts and heirlooms. He began a new career at that point...to go into interior of Africa and find his own treasureland to loot. In Ife and in Bini, there are accounts of treasures carted away fraudulently by Frobenius. Yet many Eurocentric writers find this pirate credible and use his writings and view of the locals for reference.

Mungo Park is celebrated in our school textbook but Mr Park was another looter and pirate who met his end in Bussa. Why do we celebrate him in our history, what is his relevance to the history of Yoruba, Igbo or Hausa or any other ethnic group in this country to warrant him a place in our textbook?

De Gregrinous was in North Africa to study crop cultivation and soil types for agricultural research. Somehow he ended up following River Niger and then into Nigeria. He was the one who published the Gaani letter in the link produced by Physics in his last response. What is an agriculturist studying soil type in North Africa doing in Bussa and at the King's palace? He is looking for his own loot.

African kingdoms were sitting treasures, open and welcoming and unsuspicious of the ambitious Europeans arriving to pillage the land under the guise of exploration. Overnight, they become essay writers and experts and chroniclers of Negro's Africa.

It continues till today. Experts on African issues are paid huge retainership by CNN, Foxnews and Banks. Someone spent 6 months in Kenya, another 8 months in Johannesburg and without stepping foot anywhere else he becomes expert on Africa and make money on a bestseller, full of unapplicable projections.

Anyway, I shouldnt condemn writers and overnight experts too much, they play a role in the economies and i respect that, even though i have no respect for their view on my culture and its origin.

On Asara, I usually do not provide links and reference source to any topic of discussion but i will make exception here for you.

http://books.google.com/books?id=7XSiGw4_qlAC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=asara+legend+of+yoruba&source=bl&ots=u008a1qdNo&sig=V-WLgupK_tU-hrQqdhrYiadgTOk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=f5JuUqnzHYSGyAHtuoGoCQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAg

http://books.google.com/books?id=_FHgHAOp_x4C&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=asara+legend+of+yoruba&source=bl&ots=KliO6-UwCH&sig=X8PLcqcsPtWVZkgH6xUX_52An_M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sJRuUuzeAYm6yAG51YCQBQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAzgK


If you need more info outside of these use the keyword "Asara Legend Yoruba", and filter through.

I would love to show you that Jewish rites is mixed into Ifa rites and that Ifa rites is prototype for Islam rites. Thats still one of my mission to drop that bombshell in here one day. This is not the time for it. Everything in the Old Testament from where Noah was instructed about constructing the Ark of the Covenant to the point where he decreed for his sons is all pure Odus of Ifa. The numbers, the animals, the formulas, the flood, the dimensions, the offerings, the altar and the shrine, the cleansing....everything, even The Ark itself is all footprint for Ifa.

Nairaland is inappropriate for such a revelation.

I enjoyed chatting with you brother.

Sorry I've not been able to provide response ever since you posted. I broke my reading glasses and I've been lazy.

I went through the books hosted on the links you provided. From your own post you said Asara means Assyria and you posited that how come Yoruba know of Assyria. Bro, from the links you provided, Asara is said to be human, an idol caver for Oduduwa. How did you arrive at Asara being Assyria?

The works are based on oral traditions which Arab/Mecca historians cannot even verify nor affirm a connection to and if they have I would be glad to read on it if you'd please share. Furthermore, from the links, the Oduduwa/Lamurudu/Paganism/Islam mixture caused a major uprising and one of the books said 'civil war', given how Arabs are ardent chroniclers and historians - one would expect a very major happening of that nature be recorded in their history - if there's any work on this verifying the Arabs/Mecca have a record of such and an accurate or close details of the dramatis personae, please share.

Those books place the Oduduwa/Mecca era after Mohammed's period. But riddle me how Lamurudu believed to be Nimrod would reign after Mohammed had long passed? Or is it another Nimrod/Lamurudu and not the one from the bible?

In a nutshell, the Arab/Mecca theory is just a means to proselytize and validate Islam. This can be seen from the authors going as far as saying something of an invasion from Mecca and a Quran was taken to Ife which is hung and called Idita - this is totally false. And I realize this is why you're trying to tout similarities between Ifa and Islam? If we begin to delve into Ifa you'll find Islam is far different -besides Ifa contains philosophies which could be found in Buddhism, does this mean Oduduwa came from China/Japan? Also the offering of animals and some philosophies are similar to that of Judaism in the bible - did Oduduwa migrate from Canaan?

It is generally believed that Mohammed's period was 6th/7th century, the subsequent centuries witnessed turmoil over who would succeed Muhammed, the war of apostasy which was rebellion against who took over from Mohammed and Christian Arabs, the conquest against Christians (Byzantine?), Arab Slave trade started around 10thCentury/with spread of Islam into North Africa. Oranmiyan founded Oyo around 12th Century - if Oduduwa possibly migrated during the rebellion war around 7th century, how come Oranmiyan and his siblings chose to war against Mecca and he founded Oyo in the 12th Century? 5 centuries apart?! And not to forget it is believed Oduduwa was very much alive during Oranmiyan's Benin advent and founding Oyo - does this mean Oduduwa lived for about 500 years if not more? From the 10th century, Islam had spread across North Africa, part of Europe and Middle East but it had become entrenched in Mecca/Arabia so it is only plausible to say the Oduduwa/Lamurudu uprising never occurred, hence it would have been a major event which wouldn't have gone un-recorded. I'm beginning to ramble and it appears I've mixed up dates. I'll get back to it tomorrow. Goodnight.

At the bolded: How can I become privy to the revelation?

I have so many questions popping up but I gotta get back to bed.

9jacrip,

Sorry to hear that about the damage to your glasses. I hope you got that resolved.

Honestly, we will not get anywhere on this discussion. I say this because you are not positioned on a quest to find the Yoruba root, but rather to block any link to AfroAsia, even if that turns to be the origin of Yoruba. Your position is laced with religious differenc rather than truthful conviction.

Everytime I talk about Yoruba root being in AfroAsia my oppositions jump straight to conclusion that Im talking about Arabs, as if Arab is the only people in AfroAsia.

Jews have ruled Arabia, Palestinians and Christians have ruled Arabia and in our era, Islam is ruling Arabia. So when I say Yoruba came from AfroAsia, interested minds ought to be probing to discover in which era and in what cultural civilization did Yoruba live in AfroAsia, than asking me to present Arab literature on Yoruba origin.

Actually, I have an answer on that. The records exist.

First let me say that contrary to popular belief, Prophet Muhammed (SAWS), did not write the Quran. God commanded him....

"Iqra wa Rabbukah l' akhramu...."
"Read, in the name of your Lord...."

God, did not say "write"!

In addition to the Quran, there were also Hadiths - the traditions or observed rites or customs of the Prophet.

The scribes, following oratories of the Prophet and his mannerisms, wrote and compiled the works.

There were many clans in Arabia at the time, particularly in Mecca but only one was mentioned - Quraish!.

This was in the age of writing and scholarship. Why was Quraish the only Arabian clan mentioned?

Im going to pause on that, its food for thought..I will pick up on it and explain further at a later time. I do want to stretch your imagination across the globe. Lets go to America.

Blacks were taken from Africa and in enslavement migrated out to South and North America. While this was going on the merchants kept accurate record of their cargo and payload and as well proper itinerary of their berthing at harbors, names of the ships, the dates and number of days spent at harbor, the name of the captain, the nationality of the captain, the amount of tobacco, liquor, spice, tea, ginger and as well the wreckage and claims. They had the number of negroes with entries on estimated age, their gender and the height and weight.

The ledgers were missing the root, name, language and religion of the slaves.

This happened in an age when Europe was budding in literature and classics. The same ledger in which inventory of the slaves was written could contain record of their nativity. So why was it missing? Was it even written at all?

So today if you ask Oprah Winfrey where her rootis all she can tell you is she is African by root. She doesn't know her family root or tribe or clan. Ask Spike Lee, ask Kobe Bryant....go into the ghettos of America and ask African Americans to produce for you records of their roots, why was it not written? How do they then know they are from Africa? Because of their color. Color is the record of their root in Africa.
Can you imagine, and this is only 200 or 300 years or so ago.

So if this can happen 300yrs ago and in a culture notorious for keeping records but we cant find recorda of blacks except what their skin color tell us about them, then imagine what may have happened to Yorubas 1000 years ago in another culture known for keeping record and where mention was made of only one clan out of dozens.

We must find that "color" which tie Yoruba to its roots. So far in my quest, those "color" characteristics (arts, myths, creeds, rites, sound, name, etc...) do not coincide with SW Nigeria, they are matching to specimens in AfroAsia. This is why I keep harping that tune.

There is a place in South Carolina bordering Georgia on the coast called Sapelo. What are the chances that this is Sapele and was taken there by slaves in memory of their home? Highly likely!

Bayajjida, a Hausa legend was said to be a citizen of Baghdad. What are the chances that this is true? Highly likely!

Alexandria was named after Alexander the great! Washington was named after George Washignton. Adamawa State, Adamawa highlands, named after Adama, a Fulani settler.

What are the chances that Assyria was named after Asara? The same tradition by which all legends retain grace through time and eternity. Its why Israel is named after Jacob, whose name was later changed to Israel.

Do we want an intelligent approach to the question of Yoruba roots or do we want to default behind religious opposition?

I wish you well my brother.

MetaPhysical: 9jacrip,

Sorry to hear that about the damage to your glasses. I hope you got that resolved.

Honestly, we will not get anywhere on this discussion. I say this because you are not positioned on a quest to find the Yoruba root, but rather to block any link to AfroAsia, even if that turns to be the origin of Yoruba. Your position is laced with religious differenc rather than truthful conviction.

Everytime I talk about Yoruba root being in AfroAsia my oppositions jump straight to conclusion that Im talking about Arabs, as if Arab is the only people in AfroAsia.

Jews have ruled Arabia, Palestinians and Christians have ruled Arabia and in our era, Islam is ruling Arabia. So when I say Yoruba came from AfroAsia, interested minds ought to be probing to discover in which era and in what cultural civilization did Yoruba live in AfroAsia, than asking me to present Arab literature on Yoruba origin.

Actually, I have an answer on that. The records exist.

First let me say that contrary to popular belief, Prophet Muhammed (SAWS), did not write the Quran. God commanded him....

"Iqra wa Rabbukah l' akhramu...."
"Read, in the name of your Lord...."

God, did not say "write"!

In addition to the Quran, there were also Hadiths - the traditions or observed rites or customs of the Prophet.

The scribes, following oratories of the Prophet and his mannerisms, wrote and compiled the works.

There were many clans in Arabia at the time, particularly in Mecca but only one was mentioned - Quraish!.

This was in the age of writing and scholarship. Why was Quraish the only Arabian clan mentioned?

Im going to pause on that, its food for thought..I will pick up on it and explain further at a later time. I do want to stretch your imagination across the globe. Lets go to America.

Blacks were taken from Africa and in enslavement migrated out to South and North America. While this was going on the merchants kept accurate record of their cargo and payload and as well proper itinerary of their berthing at harbors, names of the ships, the dates and number of days spent at harbor, the name of the captain, the nationality of the captain, the amount of tobacco, liquor, spice, tea, ginger and as well the wreckage and claims. They had the number of negroes with entries on estimated age, their gender and the height and weight.

The ledgers were missing the root, name, language and religion of the slaves.

This happened in an age when Europe was budding in literature and classics. The same ledger in which inventory of the slaves was written could contain record of their nativity. So why was it missing? Was it even written at all?

So today if you ask Oprah Winfrey where her rootis all she can tell you is she is African by root. She doesn't know her family root or tribe or clan. Ask Spike Lee, ask Kobe Bryant....go into the ghettos of America and ask African Americans to produce for you records of their roots, why was it not written? How do they then know they are from Africa? Because of their color. Color is the record of their root in Africa.
Can you imagine, and this is only 200 or 300 years or so ago.

So if this can happen 300yrs ago and in a culture notorious for keeping records but we cant find recorda of blacks except what their skin color tell us about them, then imagine what may have happened to Yorubas 1000 years ago in another culture known for keeping record and where mention was made of only one clan out of dozens.

We must find that "color" which tie Yoruba to its roots. So far in my quest, those "color" characteristics (arts, myths, creeds, rites, sound, name, etc...) do not coincide with SW Nigeria, they are matching to specimens in AfroAsia. This is why I keep harping that tune.

There is a place in South Carolina bordering Georgia on the coast called Sapelo. What are the chances that this is Sapele and was taken there by slaves in memory of their home? Highly likely!

Bayajjida, a Hausa legend was said to be a citizen of Baghdad. What are the chances that this is true? Highly likely!

Alexandria was named after Alexander the great! Washington was named after George Washignton. Adamawa State, Adamawa highlands, named after Adama, a Fulani settler.

What are the chances that Assyria was named after Asara? The same tradition by which all legends retain grace through time and eternity. Its why Israel is named after Jacob, whose name was later changed to Israel.

Do we want an intelligent approach to the question of Yoruba roots or do we want to default behind religious opposition?

I wish you well my brother.

Bro,

I'm not in anyway trying to block the AfroAsia link if there's any, infact, it will make for an interesting read really. Neither am I against any religion. You do not seem to understand my stand point - there has to be some form of corroboration of both sides. If Yoruba claims to have come from whereever, the people of that whereever who are notorious for keeping records would corroborate the claim no matter how minute the evidence they put forward, do you get my point? The dating of when Islam got to Mecca, Oduduwa, Lamuru/Nimrod all just do not add up and this is what the books you referred to me are poiting to. It is only right I ask questions and if they are not answerable, I throw the theory out the window.

Besides I suppose carbon dated artefacts have been found in Ife which pre-dates Muhammed/Islam? For example, the Opa Oranmiyan in Ife far pre-dates Oduduwa/Oranmiyan era, are we going to then say ghosts occupied Ife and built the obelisk?

The same you said about America known for keeping record is applicable to AfroAsia people and technically the Arabs which your books point to. They are known for chronicles. The books painted a major event in their history, it is only right they have some form of record connecting the dots. We can't keep 'famzing', so to speak and they're not 'co-signing' it.

Fastforward to Asara - going by the dates of these kingdoms/empires. Assyria had existed before Islam/Muhammed? If yes, how is it Asara was used to name Assyria? Bro, I follow history in a chronoligical order and these is why your premise seems to keep falling apart with me. Except you're then saying we should do away with available dates and just presume and assume away?

I would appreciate nothing more than an intelligent approach but with premise that holds water. We don't want to distort history all in the bid to prove we're from AfroAsia. And as I've said before, except you just want to break down names, accents, tongues, sounds that sound similar to connect dots which I do not know anything about.

My point is: the books you based on last 2 arguments on pointed towards Islam/Mecca/Oduduwa/Lamurudu-Nimrod and the periods these notable occurrences took place/existed do not merge enough to make the thesis of Arab migration possible. If we go by this, then can we just completely debunk Arab theory completely? And since you've spread your location to the whole of AfroAsia, sir that is a massive work and there has to be some form of concrete corroboration between both sides and we're not just going to coin names and sounds and quickly weld them to prove one migrated from the other.

Really, I'm close minded to your theory, maybe you should just school me and other interested parties because I will keep taking you round and round and it might become frustrating and I never ever want to shoot down your approach, it is a beautiful one really.

I wish you all the best sir.
Cheers.

tpia@:


the ife connection might be a bit of a stretch, since ife is centrally located and not near the river niger.

It's not a stretch at all. Economic trade along the length of the Niger was central to the development (possibly even the establishment) of Ile-Ife. Sometimes the materials I want to reference aren't available online for easy distribution, but you can read supporting material on this here (it's an archeaological essay from a recent book):

http://books.google.com/books?id=CS5tHpdMMa4C&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=Ile+Ife+Middle+Niger+trade&source=bl&ots=bMjna7Qxm9&sig=n93WLMZ4tc4HskOumE1i0S8KaIQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Z79zUpCLBc6gsATu54HABQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Ile%20Ife%20Middle%20Niger%20trade&f=false

Here's a quick quote in case people aren't able to access the link. "There is direct evidence that the glass beads and the copper products, crucial to the political economy of power in Ile-Ife, were imported from across the Sahara, via the Middle Niger."

I'd add that there's also evidence that at least some of these materials were available for extraction (in the case of copper) and manufacture (in the case of quartz and mica/silica for glass) in the general area, which is an exciting development. This is important because economics and trade are the main stimulus for political development, and following their path is extremely helpful in understanding why cities, political systems, religions and the like develop.

Ile-Ife was not just an arbitrary settlement that developed into the major cosmopolitan center in its region. There were almost certainly geographic advantages and abundant resources (as well as a measure of cultural creativity) that led to its growth. Here's another discussion referencing some of the recent archaeological evidence:

http://books.google.com/books?id=fY0eAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA864&lpg=PA864&dq=Ile+Ife+carnelian&source=bl&ots=EV2cnbTqsd&sig=ZzVMNhcvGjjJ0ZoJfmNEM-HW8Fk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eMFzUuPLLZWxsAS12oDYBQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Ile%20Ife%20carnelian&f=false

"The production of crafts were very intense after the 10th century AD, and archaeologists have identified an "industrial site" where the manufacture of glass beads, iron and perhaps brass/bronze sculpture took place. This is the Olokun grove, less than 2 km from the palace area."

is there any way to find out if yorubas knew the extent of the niger- where it ended. [i suppose they didnt].

Not yet, as far as I know. There aren't maps and obviously we don't have written records from that time. There may be suggestions in Ifa poetry or myths.

[quote]also, thanks for answering.

My pleasure --I love this material and it's a great diversion from the day job every once in a while..

9jacrip:

Besides I suppose carbon dated artefacts have been found in Ife which pre-dates Muhammed/Islam? For example, the Opa Oranmiyan in Ife far pre-dates Oduduwa/Oranmiyan era, are we going to then say ghosts occupied Ife and built the obelisk?

Interestingly, the earliest evidence of settlements in Ile-Ife are from around 350 BC: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ife/hd_ife.htm

That's about 900 years before Muhammed's recorded birth. If there is evidence of pre-Muhammedan Arab immigration, not one single reputable historian has found it. Certainly, the early writers like Reverend Samuel Johnson linked whatever "immigration" they mentioned to a vague war with Islam, but we know now that the dates are impossible and the theory doesn't work.

There's also sensible timeline of political/economic/cultural development--from the founding villages, to the evolution of an Obaship, to consolidation of political power under "Oduduwa" (if he/she existed), to dispersal to the other places that now claim ancestral ties with Ife. This hypothesis has been around since the golden age of Nigerian historical research in the 1970s and has decent evidence to back up the main conclusions, but people prefer to look elsewhere or just make things up as they go along.

^ thanks once again.

another thing I'm trying to look at, is the ethnicity of some of the older yorubas (maybe older nigerians).

some really old photos (pre 1940s) show people who look distinctly biracial or mixed.

where did this mixture come from (england? the north?), or is it just their natural appearance.

anyone with a clue?

i see such photos every once in a while, tends to make me wonder.

It's not a stretch at all. Economic trade along the length of the Niger was central to the development (possibly even the establishment) of Ile-Ife. Sometimes the materials I want to reference aren't available online for easy distribution, but you can read supporting material on this here (it's an archeaological essay from a recent book):

http://books.google.com/books?id=CS5tHpdMMa4C&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=Ile+Ife+Middle+Niger+trade&source=bl&ots=bMjna7Qxm9&sig=n93WLMZ4tc4HskOumE1i0S8KaIQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Z79zUpCLBc6gsATu54HABQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Ile%20Ife%20Middle%20Niger%20trade&f=false

Here's a quick quote in case people aren't able to access the link. "There is direct evidence that the glass beads and the copper products, crucial to the political economy of power in Ile-Ife, were imported from across the Sahara, via the Middle Niger."

I'd add that there's also evidence that at least some of these materials were available for extraction (in the case of copper) and manufacture (in the case of quartz and mica/silica for glass) in the general area, which is an exciting development. This is important because economics and trade are the main stimulus for political development, and following their path is extremely helpful in understanding why cities, political systems, religions and the like develop.

Ile-Ife was not just an arbitrary settlement that developed into the major cosmopolitan center in its region. There were almost certainly geographic advantages and abundant resources (as well as a measure of cultural creativity) that led to its growth. Here's another discussion referencing some of the recent archaeological evidence:

http://books.google.com/books?id=fY0eAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA864&lpg=PA864&dq=Ile+Ife+carnelian&source=bl&ots=EV2cnbTqsd&sig=ZzVMNhcvGjjJ0ZoJfmNEM-HW8Fk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eMFzUuPLLZWxsAS12oDYBQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Ile%20Ife%20carnelian&f=false

"The production of crafts were very intense after the 10th century AD, and archaeologists have identified an "industrial site" where the manufacture of glass beads, iron and perhaps brass/bronze sculpture took place. This is the Olokun grove, less than 2 km from the palace area."

i agree with your observation, although the subject may have to be studied further (for a ghana connection, i think the glass beads were also traded with ghana although i'm not sure of this and shouldn't be quoted).

but it seems the niger river was the domain of oyo, while ife explored or stretched further south towards the ocean. Of course the slave trade disrupted all study of the region (sw), so reconstructing this material is extremely difficult.

TerraCotta:

My pleasure cheesy--I love this material and it's a great diversion from the day job every once in a while..

9jacrip:

Besides I suppose carbon dated artefacts have been found in Ife which pre-dates Muhammed/Islam? For example, the Opa Oranmiyan in Ife far pre-dates Oduduwa/Oranmiyan era, are we going to then say ghosts occupied Ife and built the obelisk?


Interestingly, the earliest evidence of settlements in Ile-Ife are from around 350 BC: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ife/hd_ife.htm

That's about 900 years before Muhammed's recorded birth. If there is evidence of pre-Muhammedan Arab immigration, not one single reputable historian has found it. Certainly, the early writers like Reverend Samuel Johnson linked whatever "immigration" they mentioned to a vague war with Islam, but we know now that the dates are impossible and the theory doesn't work.

There's also sensible timeline of political/economic/cultural development--from the founding villages, to the evolution of an Obaship, to consolidation of political power under "Oduduwa" (if he/she existed), to dispersal to the other places that now claim ancestral ties with Ife. This hypothesis has been around since the golden age of Nigerian historical research in the 1970s and has decent evidence to back up the main conclusions, but people prefer to look elsewhere or just make things up as they go along.

My brother, the bolded has been my stand point and I've repeatedly touted this.
I wonder what we're looking for with seeking validation by forcefully trying to create a link with Arab/Mecca/Islam/AfroAsia. Different artifacts predate and even existed side by side with the above mentioned.

To me it is a futile exercise but who knows, Mr. Metaphysical might have something ground breaking.

please do not tie yourselves to Arabs or anything Arabic..it's insulting to your heritage.

Yoruba > Any Arab, any day.

MetaPhysical, sir the likelihood that any BLACK subsaharan african group has direct origins in the "arab world" without mixing is highly unlikely. For one thing those "Blacks in the arab world" arrived there in three ways:

as slaves (trans-saharan slaves to the Arabs/ slaves in the Roman and Assyrian Empires/modern day slaves)

as recent migrants (looking for work/school)

or ancient migrants (native east africans who conquered the near east/parts of the arab peninsula) some of their descendants are still there. The majority ended up repatriating and settling back in Sudan and the HOA.

You cannot compare the african diaspora's connection with Africa through skin color and culture with your trying to tie the Yoruba to the Middle East. It doesn't work like that. We of the diaspora can pin-point our similarities and we have proof: DNA, Features, Language, folklore, documentation, culture; etc.

North/East Africans have a close relationship with the middle east for similar reasons and many of their ancestors left those lands or had direct relationships with those lands THOUSANDS of years ago. And YET the proof is still here!

There is no proof that Yoruba is tied to any of those people...it's all speculation and wishes. simple.

EzeUche_:

When Africans stop trying to say we descend from a Semitic group.

lol

We should be saying they descended from us, because Africans are the original man. We did not descend anyone!

nope. that's not correct either.

Tony Spike:

The coastal question has been on my mind since we discussed the possible roots of phoenician and Roman word sthat seem to appear in the Yoruba lexicon. I have found some evidence of Phoenicians travelling around Africa and camping at different places on the continent, I have also found documentations of the Roman expedition as far as Lake Chad in ancient times. I am yet to find the possibility of Romans sailing up to West Africa in ancient times. I'll keep on searching though...

there's an unvalidated account of ancient egyptians planting colonies around the coast of africa, no physical evidence has confirmed this though.

9jacrip:


Bro,

I'm not in anyway trying to block the AfroAsia link if there's any, infact, it will make for an interesting read really. Neither am I against any religion. You do not seem to understand my stand point - there has to be some form of corroboration of both sides. If Yoruba claims to have come from whereever, the people of that whereever who are notorious for keeping records would corroborate the claim no matter how minute the evidence they put forward, do you get my point?

There are records which universally acknowledge that the clans of Arabia were at one point racially black. I understand that you might not be aware of this fact because typically we do not go looking to read Arab history, we gravitate towards the study and literatures of Western society and their history.

The fact blacks once occupied Arabian peninsula is not academically disputed, neither is history silent on it.

There once existed a "Yaraba" tribe in the history of Oman and were the ruling caste in that land. Modern Oman is a Sultanate and there was a time in its history when it worshipped idols and gods. Even the monarchs in the UAE have members of their family with negro features. There is a port on the border between Syria and Iraq called "rab al-Yoruba". Syria is an ancient land and is the remnant or residue of a much expanse territory called Assyria, one of their oldest surviving clan is the "Alawiye" or "Alawiy"; compare this with Yoruba's "Alawiye". "Bakare"; "Gbadamosi"; "Aremo";..these are all traditional Yoruba names but compare their Arabic equivalents - Abubakar; Bhadmas; Amir.

In fact, -m-r- is the root for the words "Mariwo" (Yoruba); "Aremo" (Yoruba); "Amir" (Arabic); "Emir" (Hausa).

Mariwo is the palm fronds used in Yoruba rites of coronation.
Aremo in Yoruba is Prince.
Amir in Arabic is Prince
Emir in Hausa is Monarch.

Yoruba did not borrow these words. Fulani borrowed the term Emir, it is not Hausa, it came from Arabs.

Arab literatures and history is not popular here and people who grew up and trained to view anything non-Western as substandard and with suspicion will not readily have the state of mind to just accept what Im saying as a possibility and a fact, and to those people I will recommend that knowledge is universal, not limited to Western ideologies - expand your reading base!

The dating of when Islam got to Mecca, Oduduwa, Lamuru/Nimrod all just do not add up and this is what the books you referred to me are poiting to. It is only right I ask questions and if they are not answerable, I throw the theory out the window.

I only made that book reference in response to your probe on Asara. The chronology of Lamurudu/Oduduwa/Mohammed/Islam in Mecca is a different issue.

I do not refer people to books and sources but I help quest by giving hints and I leave people to navigate their own way through books but I make myself available to answer questions or clarify where needed. If I dont know I will say so. So I apologize if the reference I made raised more confusion or gave contradictions.

For myself the only authority I hold on to on Yoruba history and roots is what comes out of Ooni's palace and Alaafin's palace; their narrations point us outside of modern Yorubaland and into a distant and foreign land. This is why I regard "Myths of Ife" as a concrete proof on Yoruba civilization and where it originated from.

Does this mean I do not read and appreciate other writers? No, not at all. I enjoy Robin Law, Robert Smith, Dierk Lange, even that thief, Leo Frobenius..but I just simply do not see them as authority on the footprints of Yoruba.

Besides I suppose carbon dated artefacts have been found in Ife which pre-dates Muhammed/Islam? For example, the Opa Oranmiyan in Ife far pre-dates Oduduwa/Oranmiyan era, are we going to then say ghosts occupied Ife and built the obelisk?

Please, let's not go here.. Opa Oranmiyan is a stone material and was never a living organism. Carbondating is reserved for organic materials. Anyone that carbondated Opa Oranmiyan is a fraud. The staff did not predate Oduduwa or Oranmiyan.

If there were people existing on that land before the arrival of Yorubas then the name of that land was not Ile Ife.

The same you said about America known for keeping record is applicable to AfroAsia people and technically the Arabs which your books point to. They are known for chronicles. The books painted a major event in their history, it is only right they have some form of record connecting the dots. We can't keep 'famzing', so to speak and they're not 'co-signing' it.

Lol. My book..? The only book I will own on this subject of Yoruba roots is Myths of Ife. There are views and opinions and interests all of which is published as books. Its important to read them and understand other peoples opinions and interests and appreciate their effort. Nobody is wrong but everybody cannot be authority..there can only be one authority, for me Ooni is that authority on roots - he is backed up by Alaafin's supporting claim.

In fact, go and read Obasanjo's biography where he talks about his father, grandfather and great grandfather and the history down the ages. Obasanjo is Owu by ethnicity, an original Oyo clan. War drove them down south to Abeokuta - the city of refuge! He referred to his father as Papa, his grandfather as Baba Alarobo and great-grandfather as Baba Elesin, which means his great-grandfather may have kept stabled horses. Historically significant! Was Obasanjo the son of royal courtiers or Yoruba army cavalry? The story down his family line is a root that started in Mecca. Obasanjo is Christian and an accomplished leader, his view and account on Yoruba history cannot be dismissed.

Fastforward to Asara - going by the dates of these kingdoms/empires. Assyria had existed before Islam/Muhammed? If yes, how is it Asara was used to name Assyria? Bro, I follow history in a chronoligical order and these is why your premise seems to keep falling apart with me. Except you're then saying we should do away with available dates and just presume and assume away?

Ancient people and events were recorded using natural elements.

The year of the sun eclipse..
The day of the raining brimstones..
The season of the flood..

Modern dating took these events and using a formula (proven) established a protocol for chronological entries in human experience.

None of us were there, not even the people that invented calendar dating. Only God knows!

However, the people that invented calendar dating are humans like us. They employed "deductive reasoning" to arrive at concise facts. Why cant we do same? Is there any rule or law that forbids me or you from using deductive reasoning to extract facts? Is there any rule that forbids us from raising theories?

If an African American comes to you and say look pal, I come from your family, how would you go about elininating that possibility? Will you go into libraries looking for books and chronicles that record his ancestry? No. You will want to observe the human factors..the family traditions and rites in his past, dna, pictures of ancestors to see features and commonalities. The more matches occur the higher the credibility of his assertions. What appeared at first to be a theory may end up becoming a breakthrough revelation.

Outside of books, are there other aspects of Yoruba custons, arts, rites that connect it with indigenous nehro races?

We have Olokun, Yemoja, Sango, Obatala, Isise, Edumare, Ifa Corpus, ...outside of proto Yoruba groups, all these institutions do not find match anywhere in subsaharan Africa. If you expand the terrain, you start finding matches for them in foreign lands outside subsahara and concentrated in a particular area.

What does this mean? Do we need writers trained in Western ideologies to open our brain and help us figure out what is obvious? No, we must make our own truth from what is innate in our own culture and customs.

I would appreciate nothing more than an intelligent approach but with premise that holds water. We don't want to distort history all in the bid to prove we're from AfroAsia. And as I've said before, except you just want to break down names, accents, tongues, sounds that sound similar to connect dots which I do not know anything about.

My point is: the books you based on last 2 arguments on pointed towards Islam/Mecca/Oduduwa/Lamurudu-Nimrod and the periods these notable occurrences took place/existed do not merge enough to make the thesis of Arab migration possible. If we go by this, then can we just completely debunk Arab theory completely? And since you've spread your location to the whole of AfroAsia, sir that is a massive work and there has to be some form of concrete corroboration between both sides and we're not just going to coin names and sounds and quickly weld them to prove one migrated from the other.

Really, I'm close minded to your theory, maybe you should just school me and other interested parties because I will keep taking you round and round and it might become frustrating and I never ever want to shoot down your approach, it is a beautiful one really.

I wish you all the best sir.
Cheers.

It will be redundant to say any more, i think I saidmore than i need to already.

God Bless bro.

MetaPhysical: There are records which universally acknowledge that the clans of Arabia were at one point racially black. I understand that you might not be aware of this fact because typically we do not go looking to read Arab history, we gravitate towards the study and literatures of Western society and their history. The fact blacks once occupied Arabian peninsula is not academically disputed, neither is history silent on it.

I'm well aware of the blacks occupying Arab but I've not done any thorough reading on this since it is known Africa, experienced different migration waves to other continents, so it was just one of those occurrences in history. Blacks were said to have occupied Europe at a point also, so it is not so much of a big deal.

There once existed a "Yaraba" tribe in the history of Oman and were the ruling caste in that land. Modern Oman is a Sultanate and there was a time in its history when it worshipped idols and gods. Even the monarchs in the UAE have members of their family with negro features. There is a port on the border between Syria and Iraq called "rab al-Yoruba". Syria is an ancient land and is the remnant or residue of a much expanse territory called Assyria, one of their oldest surviving clan is the "Alawiye" or "Alawiy"; compare this with Yoruba's "Alawiye". "Bakare"; "Gbadamosi"; "Aremo";..these are all traditional Yoruba names but compare their Arabic equivalents - Abubakar; Bhadmas; Amir.

I've googled and asked around to find anything concrete to read on the Yaraba tribe in Oman but I've found nothing. Do you have anything to substantiate this claim? The worship of idols and gods is not exclusive to Oman alone, it spread across all civilizations. Since time immemorial, man has always looked for a means to communicate with what he regards as a higher power and also the need for him to create some sanity in his society.

In fact, -m-r- is the root for the words "Mariwo" (Yoruba); "Aremo" (Yoruba); "Amir" (Arabic); "Emir" (Hausa).

Mariwo is the palm fronds used in Yoruba rites of coronation.
Aremo in Yoruba is Prince.
Amir in Arabic is Prince
Emir in Hausa is Monarch.

Yoruba did not borrow these words. Fulani borrowed the term Emir, it is not Hausa, it came from Arabs.

Like I said, I cannot discuss the twisting and breaking down of sounds and accents to make connections sir, I'm not a linguist, etymologist nor linguist historian. Are you? We can't just stop picking words, give them our renditions to suit the theme of our discourse. Even if we decide to tow this path, can't we look at Arabs migrating from Africa/Yoruba land since there were once black Arabs instead of the other way around. Since the occupation of Ife dates way before Arab/Islam emergence? This is very much plausible to me than tying Ile-Ife to Arab that came much later? If we are just coining words, can we then say, Ogo which is glory in English means a part of Yoruba must have migrated when English as a language has already morphed? - kidding

Arab literatures and history is not popular here and people who grew up and trained to view anything non-Western as substandard and with suspicion will not readily have the state of mind to just accept what Im saying as a possibility and a fact, and to those people I will recommend that knowledge is universal, not limited to Western ideologies - expand your reading base!

If I'm to expand my reading base or tap into facts then I have to do it with laid down rules and most importantly with the guide line of chronology. Sir, chronologically, settlement in Ile-Ife is agreed to have existed before/in 350C, the dated artworks from Ife have been dated to earlier centuries - these do not support your theory sir.

Read this excerpt: "The prehistoric era is still unknown, but data from a last stone age site at Iwo Eleru about 47 miles from Ife contributed some collateral data. There, human remains identified as Negroid dating to 8000 BC were found, more significantly, about 1000 BC decorated pottery appears in abundance at Ife.” These excavations clearly reveal Ife and Yoruba history to be well over 4000 years before Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation and about 8000 years before Jesus Christ...."

http://www.iidorg.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27&Itemid=60&limitstart=9

I only made that book reference in response to your probe on Asara. The chronology of Lamurudu/Oduduwa/Mohammed/Islam in Mecca is a different issue.

I do not refer people to books and sources but I help quest by giving hints and I leave people to navigate their own way through books but I make myself available to answer questions or clarify where needed. If I dont know I will say so. So I apologize if the reference I made raised more confusion or gave contradictions.

For myself the only authority I hold on to on Yoruba history and roots is what comes out of Ooni's palace and Alaafin's palace; their narrations point us outside of modern Yorubaland and into a distant and foreign land. This is why I regard "Myths of Ife" as a concrete proof on Yoruba civilization and where it originated from.

Even history from Ooni and Alaafin's palace sometimes contradict as a result of being '-centric'. As much as those places can be looked at for history, I wouldn't say we should throw away common sense in analyising whatever we are told because they support our theories. It is like saying the original authority for small pox and its root is the Sopona Chief Priest when modern science has analyzed it better?

Does this mean I do not read and appreciate other writers? No, not at all. I enjoy Robin Law, Robert Smith, Dierk Lange, even that thief, Leo Frobenius..but I just simply do not see them as authority on the footprints of Yoruba.

I myself pick notable things from these people's works.

Please, let's not go here.. Opa Oranmiyan is a stone material and was never a living organism. Carbondating is reserved for organic materials. Anyone that carbondated Opa Oranmiyan is a fraud. The staff did not predate Oduduwa or Oranmiyan.

Please, pardon my error for mentioning carbon dating, I was meant to say 'radiometric dating'.

If there were people existing on that land before the arrival of Yorubas then the name of that land was not Ile Ife.

And why do you say this? Must Yoruba migrate or arrive from somewhere? Why must it be the migrants from Arab or wherever be the determinant of whether it was Ile-Ife or not? I'm curious.

Lol. My book..? The only book I will own on this subject of Yoruba roots is Myths of Ife. There are views and opinions and interests all of which is published as books. Its important to read them and understand other peoples opinions and interests and appreciate their effort. Nobody is wrong but everybody cannot be authority..there can only be one authority, for me Ooni is that authority on roots - he is backed up by Alaafin's supporting claim.

In fact, go and read Obasanjo's biography where he talks about his father, grandfather and great grandfather and the history down the ages. Obasanjo is Owu by ethnicity, an original Oyo clan. War drove them down south to Abeokuta - the city of refuge! He referred to his father as Papa, his grandfather as Baba Alarobo and great-grandfather as Baba Elesin, which means his great-grandfather may have kept stabled horses. Historically significant! Was Obasanjo the son of royal courtiers or Yoruba army cavalry? The story down his family line is a root that started in Mecca. Obasanjo is Christian and an accomplished leader, his view and account on Yoruba history cannot be dismissed.

Owu is not Oyo clan sir, except I do not understand what you meant by that. I did field work with one of my GFs on Owu history, so I'm very familiar with it.
Are you connecting Obasanjo's lineage to Mecca also or did he do this in his book? I've never read the book, can I find it in iTunes bookstore?

Ancient people and events were recorded using natural elements.

The year of the sun eclipse..
The day of the raining brimstones..
The season of the flood..

Modern dating took these events and using a formula (proven) established a protocol for chronological entries in human experience.

None of us were there, not even the people that invented calendar dating. Only God knows!

However, the people that invented calendar dating are humans like us. They employed "deductive reasoning" to arrive at concise facts. Why cant we do same? Is there any rule or law that forbids me or you from using deductive reasoning to extract facts? Is there any rule that forbids us from raising theories?

Bro, the dating system is a widely and generally accepted system. Do you have alternative?
Nothing forbids us from raising theories but they have to appeal to reason and logic. Like someone created a thread saying Benin Republic should merge with Nigeria, based on theory. Politically and economically does it make sense when we begin to dissect it?

If an African American comes to you and say look pal, I come from your family, how would you go about elininating that possibility? Will you go into libraries looking for books and chronicles that record his ancestry? No. You will want to observe the human factors..the family traditions and rites in his past, dna, pictures of ancestors to see features and commonalities. The more matches occur the higher the credibility of his assertions. What appeared at first to be a theory may end up becoming a breakthrough revelation.[q/]

Everything you mentioned in this scenario have to be corroborated when I do a research in my own family. It has to be a two-way thing, if he keeps famzing me but I have no basis to affirm his claims it is only useless. It only means he has low self-esteem and desperately trying to tie himself to a lineage for validation rather than stand alone.

[quote] Outside of books, are there other aspects of Yoruba custons, arts, rites that connect it with indigenous nehro races?

We have Olokun, Yemoja, Sango, Obatala, Isise, Edumare, Ifa Corpus, ...outside of proto Yoruba groups, all these institutions do not find match anywhere in subsaharan Africa. If you expand the terrain, you start finding matches for them in foreign lands outside subsahara and concentrated in a particular area.

If I go with your flow here, then, why can't we say the occupiers of these foreign lands who have similarities with Ile-Ife/Yoruba migrated from Yorubaland. Is it a must to say we migrated from there?

What does this mean? Do we need writers trained in Western ideologies to open our brain and help us figure out what is obvious? No, we must make our own truth from what is innate in our own culture and customs. It will be redundant to say any more, i think I saidmore than i need to already.

We shouldn't, in a bid to write our history or make our own truth appear illogical or draw baseless connections. It will only distort history and come back to haunt us.

God Bless bro.

You too sir.

Base on my own little knowledge of the history, Oduduwa travel from arab region perhaps due to war and when he settled in Ile-Ife, they just adopt him as their leader base on some foretelling qualities which he possess. He gave birth a child and that lone child gave birth to many which mark the progenitor of the dominant Yoruba race. Meaning the dominant Yoruba race are from Oduduwa tree base on assumption.
Remember, Oduduwa met some people too which make up. Though, no concise recording in those era even by walls or prints.

IG: This is from a book "The Unknown Arabs: Clear And Definitive Proof Of The Dark Complexion Of The Original Arabs And The Arab Origin Of The So-Called African Americans" by Tariq Berry pages 122-123



If you are still wondering why the Yorubas are black and the Arabs light skinned, then you need to learn of the skin color of the original Arabs.
Start from http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/True_Negros/Assorted/Paintings.htm

DISCLAIMER: I am neither a historian nor a Yoruba but has a keen interest on true history that is often hidden away from us (the public)

Why not the other way round?

B.S.

Ile-Ife is the cradle of all man-kind.

there's course for archeology and Great research to be taken on this.

But apart from Yoruba people, how else claims Ile-ife is the cradle of man kind?

Wat if mankind didn't first evolve in the Same place?

Rubbish lies op

Yoruba history cannot be told by Fulani
Yoruba history cannot be taken seriously when told by brainwashed muslims trying to direct everything to Mecca
Yoruba history cannot be taken kindly when told by certain mumu about us originating from Judah- Israel (same tribe of Jesus)

All these history of Yoruba that I see everywhere are just plots to connect Yoruba people with the place of their religious affiliation. I used to go round saying Ile-Ife is where the first men were formed, but let's see scientific and archeological prove

sportfeva: Base on my own little knowledge of the history, Oduduwa travel from arab region perhaps due to war and when he settled in Ile-Ife, they just adopt him as their leader base on some foretelling qualities which he possess. He gave birth a child and that lone child gave birth to many which mark the progenitor of the dominant Yoruba race. Meaning the dominant Yoruba race are from Oduduwa tree base on assumption.
Remember, Oduduwa met some people too which make up. Though, no concise recording in those era even by walls or prints.

Oduduwa didn't come from middle east

He came from somewhere around Iwo or maybe even Igodomigodo

Listen Oyo people migrated from Ife.
All this tall about Oyo migrating from middle east is rubbish.

Oranmiyan the Great Ife prince led his disciples, close allies and family to Katunga, the spot he stopped was called Ajaka, the land favored Oranmiyan and they spread out more to create a big nation called Oyo-Ile.

The nupe and fulani that started calling oyo Yoruba is normal, Oyo called nupe tapa, but did we start dedicating their history for them?

Why all this conspiracy? Wetin my people do all this people spreading lies?

Ybutterfly: ^^^^^^^^^^^the yoruba's did not come from arab's but there has been a mix with yoruba's & hausa'a of the north of Nigeria, especially the muslims but still a minority though^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

^^^^^^^^^^^^you should check this out: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-774700.0.html

No mix anything.

If inter ethnic marriages ever happened it was very insignificant

عبدالكريم:


man, u really really really really going to have to point those out to me , i mean like give me bullets or something because i didnt see one shred of anything remotely akin to points being made by the above mentioned fellowship.


Why is london a latin word
why does Englisc(anglo-saxon english) have latin words in their vocab and they live on an island in north western europe far away from rome?
go to all yoruba historians and arab historians and fula and hausa historians to get the full story because the yaraba are not a black and white simple story. its deeper because as their own scholars say they migrated and left people in different spots , hence each remaining people will have a piece of fulfilling info. the yaraba in nigeria are not the sole keepers of the knowledge of the people. have you considered about the yaraba in north africa or the yaraba in sudan

I don't know about any yaraba in Nigeria but all Yoruba Towns are from Ile-Ife, even Isekiri(warri) trace their origin to Ife