During the night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants, and his eleven sons, and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. He took them and sent them across the stream, along with all his possessions. So Jacob was left all alone, and there a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower Jacob, he struck the socket of Jacob’s hip and dislocated it as they wrestled.
Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” “What is your name?” the man asked. “Jacob,” he replied. Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled (FOUGHT) with God (Elohim) and with men, and you have prevailed." Genesis 32:22-32

Jacob fought one man and the man was Gods and men at the same time. Was it Jesus? or another Jesus man-God 100% man and 100% Elohim?

But who wrestles with even an angel and win not to talk of Gods (Elohim)?

NB: Elohim is Plural

MightySparrow, chigator2, Preciousgirl, SharonLoveth, Ammishaddai, sagenaija, Bishopkingsley

AntiChristian:

During the night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants, and his eleven sons, and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. He took them and sent them across the stream, along with all his possessions. So Jacob was left all alone, and there a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower Jacob, he struck the socket of Jacob’s hip and dislocated it as they wrestled.
Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” “What is your name?” the man asked. “Jacob,” he replied. Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled (FOUGHT) with God (Elohim) and with men, and you have prevailed." Genesis 32:22-32

Jacob fought one man and the man was Gods and men at the same time. Was it Jesus? or another Jesus man-God 100% man and 100% Elohim?

But who wrestles with even an angel and win not to talk of Gods (Elohim)?

NB: Elohim is Plural

No Churchgoer will address this but would you like to know what actually happened?

MaxInDHouse:


No Churchgoer will address this but would you like to know what actually happened?

I dey hear sir.

It happens everyday to us....it's not new. The point is to come out on top..

You scored F9

The man was Angel in human form, that's one
Two, if Buhari send a soldier or police to you and you slap the messaged, that means, you slap Buhari be that o

Three, is message that the angel wanted to deliver to Jacob but Jacob did not exercise patient even due he sees that the man is not ordinary man

Four, the jacking of his hip by the man which lead to make Jacob to be walking imbalance. One leg dey shorter than the other.
Five, the imbalance of Jacob leg is the sign to show you that only what God give directly is the best to the one given to, if you collect it due to lack of patience from either man, jinn, Satan or Angel, the thing most to get k-leg.

So for your information no be God directly wey Jacob fought with.

We wrestle with our conscience all the time...not new

AntiChristian:

I dey hear sir.

The man in question is an angel when they are on errand they only do exactly what God asked them to do. But this time Jacob is asking for an addition which wasn't part of the angel's mission!
Remember that Jacob once conquered his brother Esau who supposed to be the heir of God's Covenant with Abraham {Genesis 25:29-34} that was how he conquered man. Surely Jacob's plea must have made that angel ask God if he should do what Jacob is asking and since God permitted, the angel told Jacob you've conquered both man and God because Jacob made God did what that angel never thought is possible which is an addition to what God asked the angel to do!

Jacob was actually crying and begging for more blessings! Hosea 12:4

sonmvayina:
We wrestle with our conscience all the time...not new

Conscience not Gods.

sonmvayina:
It happens everyday to us....it's not new. The point is to come out on top..

It has never happen to me before. I never fought Gods or Men (Plurals)!

So how have you fought Gods and Men?

Adamgeneral12:
You scored F9

At least no be Absent.

The man was Angel in human form, that's one
Two, if Buhari send a soldier or police to you and you slap the messaged, that means, you slap Buhari be that o

I actually don't like comparison of God to humans. Elohim was used for the man that fought Jacob. Elohim is a Plural name for God. It is not difficult to say Jacob fought a man or an angel in human form. Why Elohim?

Three, is message that the angel wanted to deliver to Jacob but Jacob did not exercise patient even due he sees that the man is not ordinary man

Jacob said he fought Elohim. Since you said the Elohim is an Angel. Another person can say it was Jesus. No be all of them be God in Christainity? Where is the proof it was an Angel Jacob was calling God?

Four, the jacking of his hip by the man which lead to make Jacob to be walking imbalance. One leg dey shorter than the other.
Five, the imbalance of Jacob leg is the sign to show you that only what God give directly is the best to the one given to, if you collect it due to lack of patience from either man, jinn, Satan or Angel, the thing most to get k-leg.

So for your information no be God directly wey Jacob fought with.

Why did the Elohim he fought not have won the fight before daybreak?

AntiChristian:


Conscience not Gods.




It has never happen to me before. I never fought Gods or Men (Plurals)!

So how have you fought Gods and Men?

God is consciousness personified...not an idol like Allah or a man like Jesus...

sonmvayina:



God is consciousness personified...not an idol like Allah or a man like Jesus...

Anyone who calls Allah an idol or moon god is either an ignoramus or just plain asinine.

Allah was never represented by a figure.

AntiChristian:


Anyone who calls Allah an idol or moon god is either an ignoramus or just plain asinine.

Allah was never represented by a figure.

We all know the black cube and stone in the kaaba is for decoration....be Deceiving and lying to yourself

AntiChristian:
At least no be Absent.



I actually don't like comparison of God to humans. Elohim was used for the man that fought Jacob. Elohim is a Plural name for God. It is not difficult to say Jacob fought a man or an angel in human form. Why Elohim?

Jacob said he fought Elohim. Since you said the Elohim is an Angel. Another person can say it was Jesus. No be all of them be God in Christainity? Where is the proof it was an Angel Jacob was calling God?



Why did the Elohim he fought not have won the fight before daybreak?

Me don talk my own, the rest is left for you. Is the thing dey ask me to tell you I tell you so.

Another one, in Muslim sub books about Moses, they said Moses fought Asarailu ( Angel of death ) when he come and take Moses live, Moses box him to commer not until Asarailu when back to God and ask him where is the heart of Moses and why all his face swell up like this?
Asarailu now narrate what happen between him and Moses, now God ask Asarailu that did you know why Moses beat you? Asarailu said no!
And God said to Asarailu that is because you he can see you, now go in your invincible form and take the life of Moses for ME.
Asarailu went with one mind but in his invincible form and took Moses live.

Between the Muslim own story of angel of death fought with Moses and Jacob fought with an Angel in human's form, which one is more twisted and hard to believe?

There are so many unbelievable stories in Muslim doctrine but you choose to tarnish the Christians own stories and books, why?

AntiChristian:
During the night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants, and his eleven sons, and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. He took them and sent them across the stream, along with all his possessions. So Jacob was left all alone, and there a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower Jacob, he struck the socket of Jacob’s hip and dislocated it as they wrestled.
Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” “What is your name?” the man asked. “Jacob,” he replied. Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled (FOUGHT) with God (Elohim) and with men, and you have prevailed." Genesis 32:22-32

Jacob fought one man and the man was Gods and men at the same time. Was it Jesus? or another Jesus man-God 100% man and 100% Elohim?

But who wrestles with even an angel and win not to talk of Gods (Elohim)?

NB: Elohim is Plural

MightySparrow, chigator2, Preciousgirl, SharonLoveth, Ammishaddai, sagenaija, Bishopkingsley

Anytime you post things like this, you display ignorance. Since you are not a Christian, and cannot think as one, your analysis doesn't hold water


MaxInDHouse has correctly answered you. Taking a verse or story and building sentiments around it doesn't make you a Bible expert.

I still insist: just give a verse that tells you as a Muslim to criticise or condemn the Bible.



If you are a true Muslim, stay where Qur'an puts you or join your people in Sambisa forest

AntiChristian:
During the night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants, and his eleven sons, and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. He took them and sent them across the stream, along with all his possessions. So Jacob was left all alone, and there a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower Jacob, he struck the socket of Jacob’s hip and dislocated it as they wrestled.
Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” “What is your name?” the man asked. “Jacob,” he replied. Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled (FOUGHT) with God (Elohim) and with men, and you have prevailed." Genesis 32:22-32

Jacob fought one man and the man was Gods and men at the same time. Was it Jesus? or another Jesus man-God 100% man and 100% Elohim?

But who wrestles with even an angel and win not to talk of Gods (Elohim)?

NB: Elohim is Plural

MightySparrow, chigator2, Preciousgirl, SharonLoveth, Ammishaddai, sagenaija, Bishopkingsley

Jacob is not a wrestler nor perform in WWW. We must read Bible with an understanding of language and time. That's Moses language.

Jacob was a man of prayer.

---

Firstly, the events surrounding that verse has already showed you how he powered (wrestled) with man (Esau). Jacob never had a mind of physical fight all though. It was never a physical combat or fight but a supplication, persuasion and plead for mercy. What the new testament will call an act of prayer. This was how he overcame.


So, use this to explain the God and angel part.
Was there a wrestling? That wrestling is done in an act of prayer. That is how men of faith fought.

Paul said he fought a good fight, 2 Tim 4:7-8
and prevailed (crown)

Paul also describing how a believer should stand, he said we wrestle not against.... Ephes 6:10-16. He ended his description with praying. He must have been reading from this Jacob story, hence his usage of wrestle.

The fight of the man of faith is N the place of prayer not in might.

What did Jacob do.
A dejected, rejected man that deserve no mercy, hanged on in supplication until he got what he wanted. He plead for mercy he didn't deserve, he persevered, an assurance of trust in God for him to receive mercy even to the undeserved.

Hosea gave us a clearer emphasis.

Hosea 12
2The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him

3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:

4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;

5 Even the Lord God of hosts; the Lord is his memorial.

The bolded is the explanation of what Moses wrote. He supplicated.

---

In ancient world, supplication is a word that typical restlessness until you have what you desire. It's an act of a man who don't give up in a fight.


The word power there is from the Hebrew text sarah. It means to persevere. It's used only twice, with the second incidentally the Gen 32 story.


So. This is not a story of fighting an angel but holding unto the fact that even if he doesn't deserve it, he pleaded, supplicated to win over the mercy and by extension the angels verdict as the angel is just a messenger.

---

Today, man in impossible situation can and still wrestle to make the impossible possible because in this act is our trust in God's mighty power to change situation. Remember the word of Mary, Angel and Jesus in the synoptic.

With God, All things are possible. Hence men with the will and determination of Jacob, can stand with God to receive mercy today even if undeserved.

hupernikao:


Jacob is not a wrestler nor perform in WWW. We must read Bible with an understanding of language and time. That's Moses language.

Jacob was a man of prayer.

---

Firstly, the events surrounding that verse has already showed you how he powered (wrestled) with man (Esau). Jacob never had a mind of physical fight all though. It was never a physical combat or fight but a supplication, persuasion and plead for mercy. What the new testament will call an act of prayer. This was how he overcame.


So, use this to explain the God and angel part.
Was there a wrestling? That wrestling is done in an act of prayer. That is how men of faith fought.

Paul said he fought a good fight, 2 Tim 4:7-8
and prevailed (crown)

Paul also describing how a believer should stand, he said we wrestle not against.... Ephes 6:10-16. He ended his description with praying. He must have been reading from this Jacob story, hence his usage of wrestle.

The fight of the man of faith is N the place of prayer not in might.

What did Jacob do.
A dejected, rejected man that deserve no mercy, hanged on in supplication until he got what he wanted. He plead for mercy he didn't deserve, he persevered, an assurance of trust in God to always show mercy even to the undeserved.

Hosea gave us a clearer emphasis.

Hosea 12
2The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him

3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:

4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;

5 Even the Lord God of hosts; the Lord is his memorial.

The bolded is the explanation of what Moses wrote. He supplicated.

---

In ancient world, supplication is a word that typical restlessness until you have what you desire. It's an act of a man who don't give up in a fight.


The word power there is from the Hebrew text sarah. It means to persevere. It's used only twice, with the second incidentally the Gen 32 story.


So. This is not a story of fighting an angel but holding unto the fact that even if he doesn't deserve to receive God's blessing through the angel, he pleaded, supplicated to win over God's mercy and by extension the angels verdict as the angel is just a messenger who will yield to the word of God.

---

Today, man in impossible situation can and still wrestle with God to make the impossible possible because in this act is our trust in God's mighty power to show mercy and change situation. Remember the word of Mary, Angel and Jesus in the synoptic.

With God, All things are possible. Hence men with the will and determination of Jacob, can see God's mercy today even if undeserved.

Thanks brother. Exactly what I am telling Antichristian. He is adamant about his position as a Bible Teacher or unreasonable critic.
The funny thing is the Qur'an enjoins them to ask ' the people of the book' not to condemn or criticise. He displays abysmal ignorance like his progenitor, Ahmed Deedat and all.
I asked him simple question: just to give a verse that commands Muslims to condemn or criticise the Bible. He is vomiting venom.

There must be criticism most especially when you have someone who have the zeal for God then such zeal needed to be motivated by love because if it's just to ridicule others then you won't have anything worthwhile to say.
If your zeal is motivated by love your listeners will be intrigued by your speech and each time they'll like to have you resolve issues for them even when they're not ready to abide by what you say.

Physical creatures fight with their physical bodies but spirits don't fight like us because their existence has nothing to do with physic so if they want to fight it has to do with words that will beat the opponent with intelligence {Luke 4:1-13 compare to Revelations 1:16} so when Jesus was feeling weak it was words from an angel that strengthened him {Luke 22:43} that's why one person will feel pained whenever a true Christian is battling with a false Christian during scriptural debates and since their inner person is beaten by the truth from God's word {Hebrews 4:12} they will feel like hurting the true Christian PHYSICALLY! John 8:59; Act 5:40

So the same thing is what happened there, Jacob must have held the angel by words of strong feelings that the angel can't beat it. Remember when God wanted to destroy all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah Abraham conquered that anger with words that even God Himself can't refute:

Abraham approached God and said
“Will you really sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are 50 righteous men within the city. Will you, then, sweep them away and not pardon the place for the sake of the 50 righteous who are inside it? It is unthinkable that you would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with the wicked one so that the outcome for the righteous man and the wicked is the same! Genesis 18:23-25

Moses conquered God's anger when he reminded Jehovah what JEHOVAH Himself said about taking the Israelites to the promised land, Moses told Jehovah that if He should kill the people out of anger then what He intended will not be met! Number 14:11-24

In the same manner Jacob must have hooked that spirit creature with some strong words that the angel can't sweep away so spiritual battle totally differs from physical! Ephesians 6:12

Therefore when you people here of Russian authorities battling JWs physically know that our message is hitting really hard on the political ambitions of the Russian government that's why they helplessly term the world's most harmless group as TERRORISTS!

hupernikao:


Jacob is not a wrestler nor perform in WWW. We must read Bible with an understanding of language and time. That's Moses language.

Jacob was a man of prayer.

---

Firstly, the events surrounding that verse has already showed you how he powered (wrestled) with man (Esau). Jacob never had a mind of physical fight all though. It was never a physical combat or fight but a supplication, persuasion and plead for mercy. What the new testament will call an act of prayer. This was how he overcame.


So, use this to explain the God and angel part.
Was there a wrestling? That wrestling is done in an act of prayer. That is how men of faith fought.

Paul said he fought a good fight, 2 Tim 4:7-8
and prevailed (crown)

Paul also describing how a believer should stand, he said we wrestle not against.... Ephes 6:10-16. He ended his description with praying. He must have been reading from this Jacob story, hence his usage of wrestle.

The fight of the man of faith is N the place of prayer not in might.

What did Jacob do.
A dejected, rejected man that deserve no mercy, hanged on in supplication until he got what he wanted. He plead for mercy he didn't deserve, he persevered, an assurance of trust in God for him to receive mercy even to the undeserved.

Hosea gave us a clearer emphasis.

Hosea 12
2The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him

3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:

4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;

5 Even the Lord God of hosts; the Lord is his memorial.

The bolded is the explanation of what Moses wrote. He supplicated.

---

In ancient world, supplication is a word that typical restlessness until you have what you desire. It's an act of a man who don't give up in a fight.


The word power there is from the Hebrew text sarah. It means to persevere. It's used only twice, with the second incidentally the Gen 32 story.


So. This is not a story of fighting an angel but holding unto the fact that even if he doesn't deserve it, he pleaded, supplicated to win over the mercy and by extension the angels verdict as the angel is just a messenger.

---

Today, man in impossible situation can and still wrestle to make the impossible possible because in this act is our trust in God's mighty power to change situation. Remember the word of Mary, Angel and Jesus in the synoptic.

With God, All things are possible. Hence men with the will and determination of Jacob, can stand with God to receive mercy today even if undeserved.

What a wholesome and awesome narration.
God bless you bro.
I learnt a lot

AntiChristian:
During the night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants, and his eleven sons, and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. He took them and sent them across the stream, along with all his possessions. So Jacob was left all alone, and there a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower Jacob, he struck the socket of Jacob’s hip and dislocated it as they wrestled.
Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” “What is your name?” the man asked. “Jacob,” he replied. Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled (FOUGHT) with God (Elohim) and with men, and you have prevailed." Genesis 32:22-32

My beloved Muslim friend brother, I am going to throw a bit of quite a lump of stuff, and sure hope you can keep up with me. I promise that I'll try and keep it short and sweet

The Hebrew word, Elohim, is a masculine plural noun. This fact is arrived at because of the 'im' suffix, which is the masculine plural suffix. Now the interesting thing is that the Hebrew language is not English language and so Hebrew plurals do not always work the same way as they do in English language.

Here is an example that explains. The Hebrew word עץ (i.e. ets) means 'tree' and is a singular noun. Now, the plural form of this word is עצים (i.e. etsim), even so, funnily enough, it doesn’t mean 'trees' but rather, it means 'wood.' Sο in Hebrew, 'wood', a singular, is written with a plural noun. Another example to explain with is דם (i.e. dam), which means 'blood', a singular concept while the plural form is דמים (i.e. damim), it does not mean 'bloods' but instead means 'bloodshed', another singular concept.

So what's the point, being driving at here? Well, it is that, in order to know, if the plural noun in Hebrew is being used as a plural or a singular noun you need to look at the context, both textually and grammatically how the word, Elohim, is used. Take a look at the following phrase from Exodus 12:12.

AntiChristian:
Jacob fought one man and the man was Gods and men at the same time. Was it Jesus? or another Jesus man-God 100% man and 100% Elohim?

Genesis 33:10
'"Please," Jacob implored him, (i.e. Esau)
"don't refuse. If I'm to receive favor from you, then receive this gift from me,
because seeing your face is like seeing the face of God, since you have favorably accepted me. '

The Genesis 32:22-32 narrative has polysemous interpretations and so one, can say that, Jacob wrestled with more than one 'man' in that night. He first wrestled with himself. He wrestled with Esau. He also wrestled with God

Let me ask you a few personal questions. The questions are:
1. Have you ever in your altogether spent life on earth experience a sciatica attack before?
- I have and I can tell you for free that, it isnt a good experience to have
2. You do know what a sciatica attack is, dont you?
3. Do you know one of the causes of sciatica attacks and how it actually happens?

AntiChristian:
But who wrestles with even an angel and win not to talk of Gods (Elohim)?

Genesis 32:29
'Then Jacob asked Him,
“Please tell me Your name.”
But He said, “Why is it that you ask My name?”
And He declared a blessing [of the covenant promises] on Jacob there.'

Note from Genesis 32:29 above, that Jacob never thought he encountered Gods or gods. Also noticed that Jacob didnt talk with a 'them' but he talked with a 'Him' Also the response Jacob got back didnt come from a 'them' or 'they' but the reply came from a 'Him' and 'He'

The point is that when you look at the passage contextually, the textual and grammatical clues, reveals that although the word Elohim is a plural noun, but because of masculine singulars in the verse, the word Elohim actually is being used in a singular sense and so therefore must be translated as 'God' and not be translated as 'gods' nor 'Gods'

AntiChristian:
NB Elohim is Plural

^{Acehart, MightySparrow, chigator2, Preciousgirl, SharonLoveth, Ammishaddai, sagenaija, Bishopkingsley}

Remember from above up there, that the grammatical and textual context needs to be reviewed, in order to know, if a Hebrew plural word is being used as a singular or plural noun.

In this context, Elohim is singular, so please give it a rest and seriously dont sweat it anymore

sonmvayina:


We all know the black cube and stone in the kaaba is for decoration....be Deceiving and lying to yourself

That's your thought. No Muslim worship Kaaba. I think you're the one deceiving yourself.

sonmvayina:
We all know the black cube and stone in the kaaba is for decoration....be Deceiving and lying to yourself

AntiChristian:
That's your thought. No Muslim worship Kaaba. I think you're the one deceiving yourself

Why do muslims bow down to the Kaaba then?

BassReeves:


Why do muslims bow down to the Kaaba then?

Muslims are commanded to bow down to Allah in worship facing the Kaaba!

No Muslim bow down to the Kaaba to worship it! This is idolatry!

BassReeves:
My beloved Muslim friend brother, I am going to throw a bit of quite a lump of stuff, and sure hope you can keep up with me. I promise that I'll try and keep it short and sweet

The Hebrew word, Elohim, is a masculine plural noun. This fact is arrived at because of the 'im' suffix, which is the masculine plural suffix. Now the interesting thing is that the Hebrew language is not English language and so Hebrew plurals do not always work the same way as they do in English language.

Here is an example that explains. The Hebrew word עץ (i.e. ets) means 'tree' and is a singular noun. Now, the plural form of this word is עצים (i.e. etsim), even so, funnily enough, it doesn’t mean 'trees' but rather, it means 'wood.' Sο in Hebrew, 'wood', a singular, is written with a plural noun. Another example to explain with is דם (i.e. dam), which means 'blood', a singular concept while the plural form is דמים (i.e. damim), it does not mean 'bloods' but instead means 'bloodshed', another singular concept.

So what's the point, being driving at here? Well, it is that, in order to know, if the plural noun in Hebrew is being used as a plural or a singular noun you need to look at the context, both textually and grammatically how the word, Elohim, is used. Take a look at the following phrase from Exodus 12:12.

Genesis 33:10
'"Please," Jacob implored him, (i.e. Esau)
"don't refuse. If I'm to receive favor from you, then receive this gift from me,
because seeing your face is like seeing the face of God, since you have favorably accepted me. '

The Genesis 32:22-32 narrative has polysemous interpretations and so one, can say that, Jacob wrestled with more than one 'man' in that night. He first wrestled with himself. He wrestled with Esau. He also wrestled with God

Let me ask you a few personal questions. The questions are:
1. Have you ever in your altogether spent life on earth experience a sciatica attack before?
- I have and I can tell you for free that, it isnt a good experience to have
2. You do know what a sciatica attack is, dont you?
3. Do you know one of the causes of sciatica attacks and how it actually happens?

Genesis 32:29
'Then Jacob asked Him,
“Please tell me Your name.”
But He said, “Why is it that you ask My name?”
And He declared a blessing [of the covenant promises] on Jacob there.'

Note from Genesis 32:29 above, that Jacob never thought he encountered Gods or gods. Also noticed that Jacob didnt talk with a 'them' but he talked with a 'Him' Also the response Jacob got back didnt come from a 'them' or 'they' but the reply came from a 'Him' and 'He'

The point is that when you look at the passage contextually, the textual and grammatical clues, reveals that although the word Elohim is a plural noun, but because of masculine singulars in the verse, the word Elohim actually is being used in a singular sense and so therefore must be translated as 'God' and not be translated as 'gods' nor 'Gods'

Remember from above up there, that the grammatical and textual context needs to be reviewed, in order to know, if a Hebrew plural word is being used as a singular or plural noun.

In this context, Elohim is singular, so please give it a rest and seriously dont sweat it anymore

Hmmm! Okay!

hupernikao:


Jacob is not a wrestler nor perform in WWW. We must read Bible with an understanding of language and time. That's Moses language.

Jacob was a man of prayer.

---

Firstly, the events surrounding that verse has already showed you how he powered (wrestled) with man (Esau). Jacob never had a mind of physical fight all though. It was never a physical combat or fight but a supplication, persuasion and plead for mercy. What the new testament will call an act of prayer. This was how he overcame.


So, use this to explain the God and angel part.
Was there a wrestling? That wrestling is done in an act of prayer. That is how men of faith fought.

Paul said he fought a good fight, 2 Tim 4:7-8
and prevailed (crown)

Paul also describing how a believer should stand, he said we wrestle not against.... Ephes 6:10-16. He ended his description with praying. He must have been reading from this Jacob story, hence his usage of wrestle.

The fight of the man of faith is N the place of prayer not in might.

What did Jacob do.
A dejected, rejected man that deserve no mercy, hanged on in supplication until he got what he wanted. He plead for mercy he didn't deserve, he persevered, an assurance of trust in God for him to receive mercy even to the undeserved.

Hosea gave us a clearer emphasis.

Hosea 12
2The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him

3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:

4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;

5 Even the Lord God of hosts; the Lord is his memorial.

The bolded is the explanation of what Moses wrote. He supplicated.

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In ancient world, supplication is a word that typical restlessness until you have what you desire. It's an act of a man who don't give up in a fight.


The word power there is from the Hebrew text sarah. It means to persevere. It's used only twice, with the second incidentally the Gen 32 story.


So. This is not a story of fighting an angel but holding unto the fact that even if he doesn't deserve it, he pleaded, supplicated to win over the mercy and by extension the angels verdict as the angel is just a messenger.

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Today, man in impossible situation can and still wrestle to make the impossible possible because in this act is our trust in God's mighty power to change situation. Remember the word of Mary, Angel and Jesus in the synoptic.

With God, All things are possible. Hence men with the will and determination of Jacob, can stand with God to receive mercy today even if undeserved.

Chai so Jacob was praying to wrestle God and God injured him while praying? This your interpretation is amazing!

AntiChristian:
Muslims are commanded to bow down to Allah in worship facing the Kaaba!

No Muslim bow down to the Kaaba to worship it! This is idolatry!

Hmmm! Okay, so if no Muslim bow down to the Kaaba to worship it, and this due to, doing so, is looked upon as idolatry, then what particularly is the reason for facing the Kaaba then when bowing down Allah in worship please?

BassReeves:
My beloved Muslim friend brother, I am going to throw a bit of quite a lump of stuff, and sure hope you can keep up with me. I promise that I'll try and keep it short and sweet

Genesis 33:10
'"Please," Jacob implored him, (i.e. Esau)
"don't refuse. If I'm to receive favor from you, then receive this gift from me,
because seeing your face is like seeing the face of God, since you have favorably accepted me. '

The Genesis 32:22-32 narrative has polysemous interpretations and so one, can say that, Jacob wrestled with more than one 'man' in that night. He first wrestled with himself. He wrestled with Esau. He also wrestled with God

Let me ask you a few personal questions. The questions are:
1. Have you ever in your altogether spent life on earth experience a sciatica attack before?
- I have and I can tell you for free that, it isnt a good experience to have
2. You do know what a sciatica attack is, dont you?
3. Do you know one of the causes of sciatica attacks and how it actually happens?

AntiChristian:
Hmmm! Okay!

I dont see your responses to the above questions beloved

Adamgeneral12:

Me don talk my own, the rest is left for you. Is the thing dey ask me to tell you I tell you so.

Another one, in Muslim sub books about Moses, they said Moses fought Asarailu ( Angel of death ) when he come and take Moses live, Moses box him to commer not until Asarailu when back to God and ask him where is the heart of Moses and why all his face swell up like this?
Asarailu now narrate what happen between him and Moses, now God ask Asarailu that did you know why Moses beat you? Asarailu said no!
And God said to Asarailu that is because you he can see you, now go in your invincible form and take the life of Moses for ME.
Asarailu went with one mind but in his invincible form and took Moses live.

Between the Muslim own story of angel of death fought with Moses and Jacob fought with an Angel in human's form, which one is more twisted and hard to believe?

There are so many unbelievable stories in Muslim doctrine but you choose to tarnish the Christians own stories and books, why?

Stories can be true, false or contain an adequate mix of truth and falsehood not minding whether it is in Islam or Christianity!

The Story you are insinuating is as below:

The story is reported by Al Bukhari, Muslim, Ahmad and Al Nasai: from Abu Huraira that the Prophet said: "The Angel of Death was sent to Moses when he came to Moses. Moses SLAPPED him on the eye. The angel returned to his Lord and said, "You have sent me to a Slave who does not want to die". Allah said, "Return to him and tell him to put his hand on the back of an ox and for every hair that will come under it, he will be granted one year of life". Moses said, "O Lord! What will happen after that?" Allah replied, "Then death". Moses said, "Let it come now". Moses then requested Allah to let him die close to the Sacred Land so much so that he would be at a distance of a stone's throw from it". Abu Huraira added, "Allah's Apostle said, 'If I were there, I would show you his grave below the red sand hill on the side of the road".

NB: Angels appear to humans as normal men.

And Moses slapped an Angel in human form not God (Elohim) like Jacob!

So you can actually see that your story is a mix of little truth with much falsehood. You can bring other weird stories you have.

AntiChristian:


Chai so Jacob was praying to wrestle God and God injured him while praying? This your interpretation is amazing!

You are not reading to learn. Even if you don't agree with a believe or system. You shouldn't trade your learning on the platform of unfruitful argument . It will make you an illiterate in few years time if care is not taken.


Basic knowledge you and anyone should know.

1. Man can't fight God, talk less of face to face. Talkless of winning. Several scriptures already told you no one has seen God's face. Don't read in isolation.

2. Man doesn't have the capability and strength to fight angels. Even Samson in his glory days won't try that. Several scriptures already told you how excellence they are in strength compare to man.

So, if we are reading this text as tales by moonlight, we will just be indulging our imaginations than applying intelligent thoughts.

This means, you are already in the pit you accused others of, pit of not knowing how to read the scriptures.

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Secondly, your position of learning has made you not to see writings in ancient books beyond interpreting it as a story book of 2021.
To help you, know this and be well, ancient book pride in usage of figurative expression in their writings, the reason the one who speaks and write in parables, proverbs, figures were referred to as the wise one.

Prov 1:6, They are called the wisdom.

But when the millennial refuse to learn such wisdom will mean nothing to them because they will be drenched in poverty of wisdom.

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Hebraic Expression

Most importantly. Understand this about the Hebrew writing (don't start arguing, go and research and study in this first)

Hebrew writers employed what is called Hebraic expression or writing in their messages. The ancient Hebrew writers employed this alot. Go and read about it.

This will make you know why old testament is written the way its written. You can't afford to be lazy when handling such book.

One key facts you will found in ancient Hebrew language is the fact that it doesn't have volitional tenses.

E. G in modern English, if i say.
You will fall inside a pit if you jump

If you fall, it will be recorded as

He (the one who is warned) fell inside a pit.

But in Hebraic, their is no volition. The one who foresaw is always written as the actor of the action.


In that it will be written as

He (the one who warned) made him fell inside a pit because he disobeyed.

But in reality what it conveyed was that, he was warned ahead, but refused to heed, then the consequence.

So, the language doesn't have the capability to separate the one who knows about an action from the occurrence of the action. Their foreknowledge is written as the causative.

You will see this impression mostly all over Genesis from Adam till Joseph. It is now you left for you to be learned enough and read to interpret properly.

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So, what happened to Jacob's hip during this event.

I won't touch this until I have seen you understand all I have written in first post and all I wrote above because I am not here to be arguing blindly but to use existing history, language, culture within the inspired book to reach the intended writers explanations.

Please go and read first about Hebraic language and Expression, also as it applied to the culture and writing of Moses time.
Don't argue blindly by rushing to respond to my post.

nnamdiosu:


What a wholesome and awesome narration.
God bless you bro.
I learnt a lot

Thank you Sir

AntiChristian:
During the night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants, and his eleven sons, and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. He took them and sent them across the stream, along with all his possessions. So Jacob was left all alone, and there a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower Jacob, he struck the socket of Jacob’s hip and dislocated it as they wrestled.
Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” “What is your name?” the man asked. “Jacob,” he replied. Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled (FOUGHT) with God (Elohim) and with men, and you have prevailed." Genesis 32:22-32

Jacob fought one man and the man was Gods and men at the same time. Was it Jesus? or another Jesus man-God 100% man and 100% Elohim?

But who wrestles with even an angel and win not to talk of Gods (Elohim)?

NB: Elohim is Plural

MightySparrow, chigator2, Preciousgirl, SharonLoveth, Ammishaddai, sagenaija, Bishopkingsley

I hope you've gone through the responses by BaasReeves and some others.

BassReeves:
My beloved Muslim friend brother, I am going to throw a bit of quite a lump of stuff, and sure hope you can keep up with me. I promise that I'll try and keep it short and sweet

Genesis 33:10
'"Please," Jacob implored him, (i.e. Esau)
"don't refuse. If I'm to receive favor from you, then receive this gift from me,
because seeing your face is like seeing the face of God, since you have favorably accepted me. '

The Genesis 32:22-32 narrative has polysemous interpretations and so one, can say that, Jacob wrestled with more than one 'man' in that night. He first wrestled with himself. He wrestled with Esau. He also wrestled with God

Let me ask you a few personal questions. The questions are:
1. Have you ever in your altogether spent life on earth experience a sciatica attack before?
- I have and I can tell you for free that, it isnt a good experience to have
2. You do know what a sciatica attack is, dont you?
3. Do you know one of the causes of sciatica attacks and how it actually happens?

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hupernikao:
Jacob is not a wrestler nor perform in WWW. We must read Bible with an understanding of language and time. That's Moses language.

Jacob was a man of prayer.

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Firstly, the events surrounding that verse has already showed you how he powered (wrestled) with man (Esau). Jacob never had a mind of physical fight all though. It was never a physical combat or fight but a supplication, persuasion and plead for mercy. What the new testament will call an act of prayer. This was how he overcame.

So, use this to explain the God and angel part.
Was there a wrestling? That wrestling is done in an act of prayer. That is how men of faith fought.

AntiChristian:
Chai so Jacob was praying to wrestle God and God injured him while praying? This your interpretation is amazing!

Genesis 32:1-13, 28, 31-32
'1Then as Jacob went on his way, the angels of God met him [to reassure and protect him].
2When Jacob saw them, he said, “This is God’s camp.” So he named that place Mahanaim (double camps).
3Then Jacob sent messengers ahead of him to his brother Esau in the land of Seir, the country of Edom.
4He commanded them, saying, “This is what to say to my lord Esau: ‘Your servant Jacob says this, “I have been living temporarily with Laban, and have stayed there until now;
5I have oxen, donkeys, flocks, male servants, and female servants; and I have sent [this message] to tell my lord, so that I may find grace and kindness in your sight.”’”
6The messengers returned to Jacob, saying, “We went to your brother Esau, and now he is coming to meet you, and there are four hundred men with him.”
7Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed; and he divided the people who were with him, and the flocks and herds and camels, into two camps;
8and he said, “If Esau comes to the one camp and attacks it, then the other camp which is left will escape.”
9Jacob said, “O God of my father Abraham and God of my father Isaac, the LORD, who said to me,
‘Return to your country and to your people, and I will make you prosper,’
10I am unworthy of all the lovingkindness and compassion and of all the faithfulness which You have shown to Your servant. With only my staff [long ago] I crossed over this Jordan, and now I have become [blessed and increased into these] two groups [of people].
11Save me, please, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau; for I fear him, that he will come and attack me and the mothers with the children.
12And You [LORD] said, ‘I will certainly make you prosper and make your descendants as [numerous as] the sand of the sea, which is too great to be counted.’”
13So Jacob spent the night there. Then he selected a present for his brother Esau from the livestock he had acquired:
28Your name won't be Jacob anymore," the Man replied, "but Israel, because you exerted yourself against both God and men, and you've emerged victorious."
31The sun was rising above Jacob as he crossed over from Peniel, limping due to his wounded thigh
32Therefore, to this day the Israelis do not eat the hip tendon that connects to the thigh socket, because he had injured the socket of the thigh where the tendon connected to Jacob's hip.'

AntiChristian, my beloved Muslim friend brother, had it been that you took a stab at answering those easy simple, innocent, harmless, straight to the point 3 questions, you would have got the epiphany of what exactly transpired in the Genesis 32:22-32 narrative.

Since the three questions, weren't meant to intimidate you to any extent of stopping you from replying to them, I therefore will shed more light and spill the beans about the wrestling and injury contained in the Genesis 32:22-32 narrative.

Recall that, that I earlier advanced that Jacob wrestled with more than one 'man' in that night, when I advanced that he first wrestled with himself. He wrestled with Esau and even also wrestled with God.

Well, wrestling as we all know, agree and accept doesn't necessarily have to be physical wrestle. I am sure, you in more than one time, had on different occasions had to wrestle with your conscience over and over again about one problematic thing or another.

You see AntiChristian, Jacob was a human just as much as we are, still on that eventful night, he was not struggling with just an ordinary problem but he was struggling with a very difficult multifaceted problem. This is part of the reason why I advanced that Jacob wrestled with more than one 'man' in that night and this in the sense of meaning that he not only wrestled with himself, but he wrestled with Esau and even also wrestled with God. All these 3 settings, happened because Jacob in his mind was going through a bout of severe and strenuous mental distress.

Now, the longer Jacob was wrestling with his conscience, the bigger, his feeling of worry, uneasiness and inner turmoil grew. You see, Jacob's worry was as a result of some unpleasant feelings of dread. His fear that something bad or unpleasant will happen to him and his family got generated because of his anticipated inescapable meeting with his brother Esau who 20 years ago, had sworn to kill him (i.e. Genesis 27). This problem left Jacob's mind in a state of great disturbance and agitation. It is his discontentment that caused the wrestling to shift from him and himself, from him and Esau, to where it got to be between him and God. From deductive reasoning we know that all these happened with Jacob doing his praying that started from Genesis 32:1, in a prolonged held position (e.g. in a sitting position or laying down position)

Now, AntiChristian beloved, do you recall the 'sciatic nerve' diagram I shared earlier on? Well as you've probably noticed in the diagram, you saw the sciatic nerve. Yeah? As it happens, the sciatic nerve is the longest and largest nerve in the human body. It is located on each side of our body. It runs through our hips, buttocks, down each leg, and ending just below the knees.

Now here's the explanation of what happened to Jacob's hip during his intense mental showdown and moment of truth. Jacob is a spiritual man and so on that eventful day, was on spiritual lockdown. The spiritual lockdown turned into spiritual lockout as there was no reduction in the intensity of Jacob's spiritual persistence and because Jacob was determined not to let up. 'I won’t let You go, unless You bless me' was Jacob's reply. You see, Jacob, spirit-minded, that he is, on top of that, had an ace of spade card, which is 'When God pays one a visit, He's come prepared to open one's door of blessing', and so when opportunity arose to play the card, Jacob played his 'No retreat. No surrender' 'I won’t let You go, unless You bless me' card

Playing the card cost him though. As a matter of fact, playing the card, really and literally did cost him a limp. Forgive the play on words there. On one account, prolonged sitting or prolonged sitting still, would potentially lead to a sciatica attack. On another account, when the Man saw that Jacob was resolute and because dawn is breaking, the current situation may make Him to be late and/or miss heaven's roll call, so the 'man' touched Jacob, and said: 'Let Me go, for it is daybreak' but Jacob without releasing his tenacious grip, held on to his cast iron locked in hold with the famous 'I won’t let You go, unless You bless me' reply

Some research observations have shown that when people experience anxiety, the brain denies the nerves in the lower back oxygen, resulting in sciatic symptoms. In addition to this, cortisol (i.e. name of hormone produced when people are stressed) can make sciatica worse and/or cause it to last longer. So we see the Hand of God and man himself, Jacob contributing to the self inflicted and divinely connected sciatica attack

THIS IS ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING, LOVE GOD & LOVE YOURSELVES AS YOURSELVES.