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The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive - Islam for Muslims - Nairaland

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What Is Ashura And What Led To The Tragedy Of Karbala? / Ashura:Commemorating The Martyrdom Of Imam Hussain (as) in the Month of Muharram / The Land Of Karbala In The Words Of The Prophet Muhammad (sa) (2) (3) (4)

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The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by LagosShia: 4:41pm On Jan 01, 2012
By:Aliyyah Rizvi-Bokhari

The women present at the Battle of Ashura in Karbala, Iraq, in 61 AH were entrusted with a special mission: to keep Imam Hussain's (peace be upon him) message alive. Under the guidance of Imam Zainul Abideen and the leadership of Lady Zainab (peace be upon them), the women were to spread the message of Imam Hussain's sacrifice even while they went through huge ordeals and sorrows. Their grief at the murder of the Imam was a vehicle of change, and cannot be separated from their accomplishment of the mission.
Without the presence of the families of Imam Hussain and his companions, the Imam's sacrifices would have been laid to waste when it came to challenging corruption, as the Muslims would not have woken from their slumber of indifference. The Imam and his supporters had fought in self-defense in the desert, sacrificing their lives to save the spirit of Islam, rather than give in to the corrupt rule of the tyrant Yazid. Before he died, Imam Hussain gave his sister Lady Zainab the heavy mission of spreading the message of truth to the greater public. It was to a woman that this savior of Islam left the rest of his mission, under the guidance of his successor Imam Zainul Abideen.

Imam Zainul Abideen, Lady Zainab, Lady Umme Kulthoom, and the other women carried out the task of spreading news at the grimmest time of their lives, when their husbands, fathers, brothers, and sons had just been killed as they protected Imam Hussain. In the end they saw the Imam himself ruthlessly killed. Then, the ladies' tents were set on fire, their veils were ripped away, and they were put in chains. Made to walk through the desert, the ladies and children were paraded through Kufa and Damascus by Yazid's army.

Such was the women's self-control that, despite having gone through such ordeals, they remained focused on their mission of propagating the truth. The women were in sorrow because of the events that had transpired, but let it not be assumed that their grieving was a hindrance to their mission.

The women of Karbala mourned with legitimate reason for Imam Hussain's murder, and that mourning led to purposeful action. These women were entrusted with a precious mission, and without them, the lives of the men would have been lost in vain if the Muslim community at large did not wake up. Not only did the women mourn, the Fourth Imam mourned also. They all had sadness and they all had anger, but they channeled those emotions into their words and actions for a purpose.

The community was in need of reform, and only Imam Hussain's sacrifice could awaken it to its negligence of the true principles of Islam. In a time without today's media resources, it turned out that the speeches of the women of Karbala were the only way correct news could be spread of that sacrifice. They showed the public reasons for opposing Yazid, who had murdered the grandson of the Prophet, and they showed that a return to the true Islam was required. Imam Hussain was victorious in his mission, but the victory was surrounded in sorrow. From before Ashura even took place, prophets, the Infallibles, and even the angel Gabriel mourned how this grandson of Prophet Muhammad would be killed. Truth always wins over falsehood, but that victory does not make what transpired at the hands of Yazid any less horrendous.

When the women and children were being paraded as prisoners through the cities, the government's purpose was to hold them up as an example to those who would dare oppose Yazid. They were meant to be a warning to others of the humiliation and punishment that would be meted out to resistors. But Yazid's purpose was thwarted. The Fourth Imam, Lady Zainab, and the group of women used their trials and tribulations to awaken the Muslim community from its indifference to evil and matters of leadership.

When Lady Zainab gave powerful speeches in the streets about Ashura, her words also shook people to the core. When she spoke, she had the eloquence and fire of words that her father had had.

In the way Lady Zainab had been called the "Beauty of her Father", Lady Fatima had been known as the "Mother of her Father". They were both truly daughters of their fathers in spirit as well as blood. They both knew when to stay quiet and when to speak out, according to the wishes of their Imams. They both gave fiery speeches while trying to preserve their modesty, and they both did so while having recently suffered personal family losses, because their Imams' rights and their rights had been trampled upon. They grieved, legitimately, while still standing up for the truth. Mourning and action went hand-in-hand.

City streets had been decorated to celebrate Yazid's so-called victory, but the public ended up crying with horror instead of rejoicing when Lady Zainab spoke, because they learned what really took place on Ashura.

When the public saw the Fourth Imam, ladies, and children as prisoners, learned of their identity, and heard their words, those who had been ignorant of the truth realized that Yazid had falsely portrayed Imam Hussain to them as an enemy of Islam. Seeing the grief and hearing the words of the families, the people came to know the truth.

Seeing the children, wives, and mothers were being mistreated like this, being made to go through the streets in horrible conditions, the public was left with no doubt that Yazid was making a deliberate personal attack on Imam Hussain. The harsh way the prisoners were being treated served to underscore the ladies' and children's claim of being on the side of Truth.

If the ladies had not been there, Yazid's men would have narrated their own version of events. Politicians would have twisted the story as they wished to make Yazid out as a hero, but with the women present and speaking the truth, there was living proof of Imam Hussain's message and his martyrdom. These women were the shield of Islam, who informed the listeners that the martyrs were from the Household of the Prophet and that the current regime was oppressive and full of lies.

The tragic events of Karbala were publicized so widely and effectively in such a short span of time that it caused a reversal of public feeling towards Yazid. With eloquent speeches and narrations of the sad events to the people, the women of Karbala revealed the truth. No other method would have worked as well.

Lady Zainab was mourning Imam Hussain both as her Imam and as her brother. What control and fortitude she displayed on Ashura and afterwards! The patience she demonstrated did not mean she was not grieved. In fact, she spent the rest of her life in continuous mourning, remembering Imam Hussain. Her grief did not fade away with time. And neither has her message.

The Ladies
Aside from the ladies of the Imam's household itself, there were many other women who played important roles at Karbala. These were the wives and daughters of Imam Hussain's companions.

When her husband Abdullah son of Umayr Kalbi told her that he was going to leave Kufa to defend the grandson of the Holy Prophet, Lady Umme Wahab told him, "It is an excellent idea. May Allah guide you in all circumstances. Please take me with you too."

Umme Wahab was watching Abdullah from the families' tents when he was fighting on the day of the battle at Karbala. She became so concerned for the Imam's safety and had such devotion to him that, even though she had no weapon and no way to fight, she grabbed a stick and came to the battlefield. She told Abdullah, "May my parents be your ransom, sacrifice your life for the sake of the children of the Holy Prophet."

Imam Hussain then said to her, "May Allah bless you with His best rewards, return towards the women and remain with them, may Allah bless you, women aren't supposed to fight in the war." She returned to the tents. With his wife's moral support, Abdullah was able to protect the Imam and became the second martyr of Karbala on the day of Ashura. When he died, Umme Wahab went to her husband's body on the battlefield, and wiping the dirt from his cheeks she said, "May paradise of Allah be pleasant for you! I ask Allah, who bestowed upon you Paradise, to make me your companion over there." Just then, Shimr commanded his slave to hit Umme Wahab with a stick. The blow killed her, and she died at her husband's side.

Another family that had come to Karbala with the Imam's caravan was that of Janada, son of Ka'b, who had come with his wife Lady Bahria and son Amr. When Janada died, Bahria sent Amr to help the Imam. Imam Hussain was hesitant to give the son permission to fight since his father had just been killed, and he thought that it would be too much of a trial for Bahria to lose her son too. The son told the Imam that it was Bahria herself who had dressed him for battle and sent him. So great was the strength of Bahria that she remained focused on the protection of the Imam when her husband had just been killed.

She had grief, yes, but she managed it for a higher purpose, which would not be an easy task for anyone in such circumstances, man or woman.

From her tent Bahria watched her son wage battle, and after Amr was martyred, Bahria herself went towards the enemy with an iron club. Such was her loyalty towards the Imam, she wanted to fight herself. In this instance also, Imam Hussain told her to go back, and she obeyed him and returned to the tents.

It must have been tempting for the women to fight when they saw their imam was in danger, but despite their feelings, they had enough strength inside to obey their Imam's command. They submitted to Imam Hussain's authority just as the men had submitted, because they knew he was the true leader, that he cared for them, and had a higher purpose in mind. That purpose would only become clear after the battle, when they would remain behind to continue the Imam's mission.

Not all the women had relatives who were Imam Hussain's companions from the start of the journey to Karbala. Some of the men switched to the Imam's side during the journey, often due to the influence of their wives.

Most famous among these ladies is Lady Dulham. She was married to Zuhayr son of Qayn, who was on the enemy's side during the journey to Karbala. At one of the stops, Imam Hussain sent a request for a meeting with Zuhayr, which surprised Zuhayr very much. That was when Dulham said, "Glory to Allah! The Holy Prophet's on has called you, has sent someone to see you, and how would you refuse to see him? Why don't you visit him and hear his words?!"

Respecting her advice, her husband went, came back elated, and declared that he was going to remain in the Imam's company and sacrifice his life upon him. When she bid her husband farewell, weeping, Dulham said, "May Allah be your helper and protector, bestow upon you good in this journey, and don't forget to mention about this, my self-sacrifice, to Imam's Grandfather [the Prophet] on the Day of Judgment." Her weeping as her husband left was not an impediment to her sacrifice – it was a part of it.

The women of Karbala contributed to the sacrifices for Islam in their own way at Karbala. These brave, pious, and modestly-attired women did not stand aside indifferently when they saw oppression taking place upon the household of the Prophet. If their male relatives were not on the side of the Imam, the women did not just keep quiet and do nothing. They used their influence in their families to encourage their husbands, sons, and brothers to support Imam Hussain, even if they would possibly have to mourn their own men. They wanted to save the Imam. Mourning the grandson of the Prophet would be worse. When the time was right, the women would speak out in their families and take a stand on the issue.

The women who were at Karbala are a supreme example of how ordinary people can become extraordinary beings who serve the Imam of their time in their own ways. By spreading the news of the events at Karbala, these women ensured that Imam Hussain's message of truth would continue to live on.  

These were not the first women to play crucial roles in the history of Islam, nor were they the last. From the Prophet's first wife Lady Khadija, a prominent businesswoman who dedicated her wealth to the cause of Islam, to their daughter Lady Fatima, God's example for all women, to Lady Masooma, the sister of the eighth Imam, to Lady Hakima, the great-aunt of the Twelfth Imam (may Allah hasten his reappearance), to the same Imam's mother Lady Nargis, women have always played an important role in serving Islam. And while these abovementioned women are very special in their own right, most of all Lady Fatima, all women today have these examples to inspire them. Finding her own way to serve the Twelfth Imam even while he is in occultation is what each and every believing woman needs to do today.

http://islamicinsights.com/religion/history/the-women-of-karbala-keeping-imam-hussain-s-message-alive.html
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by Nobody: 10:19am On Jan 02, 2012
@Lagossshia,Pls could you give me the sunni hadith that says the prophet said the khalifah are twelve in number and they are from his progeny,not the Imam Rushidin.
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by LagosShia: 12:34pm On Jan 02, 2012
uplawal:

@Lagossshia,Pls could you give me the sunni hadith that says the prophet said the khalifah are twelve in number and they are from his progeny,not the Imam Rushidin.

here is the thread containing those sunni hadiths that the sucessors would 12:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-653439.0.html

and you can also see hadith ath-thaqalain as reported by At-Tirmidhi were the Prophet (sa) said that he is leaving behind the "two weighty things"-the first is the Quran,and the other is the Itrah(progeny) who are his Ahlul-Bayt (as)-and the two will never part company until they meet him at the pond of paradise (Kawthar) and whoever abide by these two will never go astray.

these hadith is reported widely.it is mutawtir and Al-Tirmidhi as also in shia hadith reported it mentioning the word "itrah" .hadith ath-thqalain is also reported by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in his musnad.you can read more:

http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/credibility.asp
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by LagosShia: 12:39pm On Jan 02, 2012
you can also watch this video as it produces the referneces in the end of the video:

12 Rightly Guided Caliphs - [Eng Subs] من هم خلفاء الراشدين

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTrb9SmzMBI
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by vedaxcool(m): 1:58pm On Jan 03, 2012
uplawal:

@Lagossshia,Pls could you give me the sunni hadith that says the prophet said the khalifah are twelve in number and they are from his progeny,not the Imam Rushidin.

[size=13pt]None of the hadiths talked of the 12 caliphs being from his progeny, all it says is that they will be from Qurayhs, it is funny the twelver shites got their ideas of the 12 imams from sunni hadiths

"SAHIH BUKHARI":

Volume 9, Book 89, Number 329:
Narrated Jabir bin Samura:

I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

"SAHIH MUSLIM":

Book 020, Number 4477:
It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I joined the company of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) with my father and I heard him say: This Caliphate will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them. The narrator said: Then he (the Holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: All of them will be from the Quraish.

Book 020, Number 4478:
It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish.

Book 020, Number 4480:
It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish.

Book 020, Number 4481:
It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura that the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: This order will continue to be dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. The narrator says: Then he said something which I could not understand, and I said to my father: What did he say? My father told me that he said that all of them (Caliphs) would be from the Quraish.

Book 020, Number 4482:
It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I went with my father to the Messenger of Allah (may peeace be upon him) and I heard him say: This religion would continue to remain powerful and dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then he added something which I couldn't catch on account of the noise of the people. I asked my father: What did he say? My father said: He has said that all of them will be from the Quraish.

Book 020, Number 4483:
It has been narrated on the authority of Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas who said: I wrote (a letter) to Jabir b. Samura and sent it to him through my servant Nafi', asking him to inform me of something he had heard from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He wrote to me (in reply): I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say on Friday evening, the day on which al-Aslami was stoned to death (for committing adultery): The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish. also heard him say: A small force of the Muslims will capture the white palace, the police of the Persian Emperor or his descendants. I also heard him say: Before the Day of Judgment there will appear (a number of) impostors. You are to guard against them. I also heard him say: When God grants wealth to any one of you, he should first spend it on himself and his family (and then give it in charity to the poor). I heard him (also) say: I will be your forerunner at the Cistern (expecting your arrival).

[size=18pt]we know it was during the riegn of Umar the persians were humbled!
[/size]
Book 020, Number 4484:
Ibn Samura al-'Adawi reported: I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say, and he then narrated (the above-mentioned hadith).


Sunan Abu Dawood :

Book 36, Number 4266:
Narrated Jabir ibn Samurah:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The religion will continue to be established till there are twelve caliphs over you, and the whole community will agree on each of them. I then heard from the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) some remarks which I could not understand. I asked my father: What is he saying: He said: all of them will belong to Quraysh.

Sunan al-Tirmidhi :

Sunan al-Tirmidhi (Arabic) Chapter of Fitan,
2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225 (Egypt)
Hadith #2149 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

The Prophet said: "There will be after me twelve Amir (Prince/Ruler), all of them from Quraysh."

Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal:

Musnad-e-Ahmad, vol 1, pg 398
Masrooq relates that someone asked Abdullah Ibn Masood, "O Abaa Abd al-Rahmaan, did you ask the Messenger of Allah how many aliphs will rule this nation?". Abdullah Ibn Masood replied, "Yes, we did ask the Messenger of Allah and he replied, "Twelve, like the number of chiefs (nuqabaa) of Bani Israel""

Musnad-e-Ahmad, vol 5, pg 106
There will be twelve caliphs for this nation[/size]
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by LagosShia: 7:06pm On Jan 03, 2012
^^^^^^^^^^^^

can you identify the 12 caliphs with their names?

thanks!
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by vedaxcool(m): 8:55am On Jan 04, 2012
LagosShia:

^^^^^^^^^^^^

can you identify the 12 caliphs with their names?

thanks!



I am certain of only four of them, But the problem of the prophecy is that they are quite vague as we can only know the names of the Caliphs when the Prophecy is fulfilled.



[size=14pt]The Rightly Guided Caliphs

Perhaps the best guess is that the twelve Caliphs refers to al-Khulafaa al-Rashidoon (the Rightly Guided Caliphs). There is Ijma (consensus) on the fact that the first four Caliphs were Rightly Guided Caliphs and the term is most often used for them. However, in addition to these four, we say that Ali’s son, Hasan (رضّى الله عنه), was one of the Rightly Guided Caliphs. The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said:

“The Caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the rule of His Kingdom to whomever He wills.”

(Sunan Abu Dawood)

Indeed, the rule of the first four Caliphs lasted twenty-nine years and six months; Hasan (رضّى الله عنه) ruled for another six months bringing the rule of the Rashidoon to thirty years in conformity to the Prophet’s prophecy.

Umar ibn Abdul Aziz (رضّى الله عنه) is also included amongst the Rightly Guided Caliphs. Therefore, the twelve Caliphs refer to:

1. Abu Bakr As-Siddiq
2. Umar ibn al-Khattab
3. Uthman bin Affan
4. Ali ibn abi Talib
5. Hasan ibn Ali
6. Umar ibn Abdul Aziz

This means that six of the twelve have come to pass, and six more will come to pass before the Day of Judgment, the last of whom will likely be Imam Mehdi.[/size]

l
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by LagosShia: 1:18pm On Jan 04, 2012
vedaxcool:

I am certain of only four of them, But the problem of the prophecy is that they are quite vague as we can only know the names of the Caliphs when the Prophecy is fulfilled.


but shouldn't we have already known who these 12 caliphs are?

are the sunni caliphs not more than 30?  grin

is the sunni caliphate not already abolished since 1914 after the fall of the ottomans?why?

i also see you presented 6 names.and you did not mention the names of muawiya and yazeed,the 5th and 6th sunni caliphs.do you care to explain why you erase the names of muawiya and his son?so were those not "sunni caliphs"?or you mean they were not "rightly guided"?how do you deterine who is rightly guided?

the Prophet (sa) mentioned 12 caliphs.and we the Shia tell you the names of those 12 without deletion or addition.but you reject them.anyways.just prove your case and it'll be fine.thanks!!!
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by vedaxcool(m): 2:56pm On Jan 04, 2012
LagosShia:

but shouldn't we have already known who these 12 caliphs are?

when you know exactly when the world is ending then we would have already know who these 12 caliphs are!



LagosShia:

the Prophet (sa) mentioned 12 caliphs.and we the Shia tell you the names of those 12 without deletion or addition.but you reject them.anyways.just prove your case and it'll be fine.thanks!!!

funny, 12 names of which only two can be considered to have actually ruled ummah! grin indeed we see how well it conforms to the hadiths! as the hadith states:

"SAHIH BUKHARI":

Volume 9, Book 89, Number 329:
Narrated Jabir bin Samura:

I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish

Book 020, Number 4477:
It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I joined the company of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) with my father and I heard him say: This Caliphate will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them. The narrator said: Then he (the Holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: All of them will be from the Quraish.

Like I indicated I am only certain of 4, regardless of whether all 12 have governed or not should not be a cause for heart pain or anxiety, anybody can simply point 12 names and give you that is hardly a problem, Prophecies like these that do not give detailed specifics can easily be made to suit anyone's fancy, just like the Christians do with prophecy of he shall be called Immanuel!
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by LagosShia: 3:35pm On Jan 04, 2012
but if the sunni interpretation is what you are following,then the sunnis have had up to 30 caliphs.

from the 12 Imams (as),only one held political power,nonetheless,we believe they were appointed by the Prophet (sa) and chosen by Allah to be both spiritual and physical guides and protectors of islam.but you can't deny that they were from Quraysh,can you?

you have a list of over 30 sunni caliphs,yet the Prophet (sa) said there would be 12!who are the 12?!!!!

so who are they?
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by vedaxcool(m): 4:37pm On Jan 04, 2012
LagosShia:

but if the sunni interpretation is what you are following,then the sunnis have had up to 30 caliphs.

That is your own interpretation! as we say rightly guided caliphs

LagosShia:

from the 12 Imams (as),only one held political power,nonetheless,we believe they were appointed by the Prophet (sa) and chosen by Allah to be both spiritual and physical guides and protectors of islam.but you can't deny that they were from Quraysh,can you?

what the point is, the majority of the 12 imams would not fit into the prophecy description!

LagosShia:

you have a list of over 30 sunni caliphs,yet the Prophet (sa) said there would be 12!who are the 12?!!!!

so who are they?


Like I did say earlier until you precisely know when the world will end, then can we be sure to have come accross all 12 caliphs! it is funny that you would think 12 caliphs would have rule the Ummah right from the time of the Prophet till date, logically that cannot happen, as each will have to over a hundred years, in any case there must be a reason scholars say rightly guided caliphs
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by vedaxcool(m): 4:39pm On Jan 04, 2012
Hadith Exploited by Deviant Sects

A fact unknown to lay-persons is that the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs is exploited by not only the Imami Shia but by many other deviant sects. Interestingly, many of these deviant sects have a more convincing argument for their claims over that of the Imami Shia! For example, the Ibaadis–the descendants of the Khawaarij–use the Hadith of twelve Caliphs in order to validate the claims of their leaders, who were twelve in number. The Ibaadis claim that this Hadith is a “shining proof” for their twelve Caliphs, which include: Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه), Umar (رضّى الله عنه), Abdullah ibn Yahya al-Kindi, and the nine Ibaadi Imams of the Rustamid Dynasty.

It is interesting that the racist cult known as the Nation of Islam, headed by Elijah Muhammad, also uses the hadith of the twelve Caliphs in order to validate their sect. Elijah Muhammad, their supposed Messenger, claimed that their founder, W.D. Fard, was one of the twelve Imams:

Now there are twelve (12) Imams or Scientists, who have been ruling all the time, and one of the twelve is always greater than the other eleven (11)

(Muhammad Speaks Newspaper)
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by LagosShia: 4:45pm On Jan 04, 2012
the issue is the 12 Imams or caliphs must succeed each other.and our Imams whom we believe their right to lead the ummah was usurped were 12 and also,they appointed one after the other each other.

so whatever deviant sect wants to be counting,they'd surely not find twelve men who succeeded one after the other who were learned and exemplary in the ummah.

mind you the Prophet (sa) did not say 13 or 23 or 29 caliphs.he said 12.so who are the 12.the sunnis who claim to be "guided" and declare others as "deviant" have more than 30 men who succeeded each other.

you cant wait for the end of the world to be able to tell who the 12 are.we know the 12 who succeeded themselves at least spiritually and as spiritual guides of the ummah from whom even sunnis benefitted.

if sunnis are counting up to 30 caliphs of theirs,then surely something is wrong somewhere with the number "12"!!!you will never be able again to go back to 12 and all of whom must be from Quraysh!!!
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by vedaxcool(m): 4:54pm On Jan 04, 2012
Making a fuss over nothing as usual believe what you want I believe what i want come to think of it do the shia all agree on the same 12 imams?

A group from amongst the Zaydis revered twelve Imams, but they believed in a different set of twelve Imams than the Imami Shia. These Zaydis believed in the first four of the Imams of the Imami Shia, but they disagreed with the Imami Shia as to who the other eight of them were. This group of Zaydis, like the Sunnis, believed that the Caliphate was not limited to twelve, but the Zaydis argued that the twelfth would be Al-Qa’im and he would lead an armed and political insurrection. A similar view was held by another heretical sect, namely that of the Ismailis who used the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs in order to further their own set of Imams. And there were many other deviant groups who used the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs–and other Hadith in regards to Imam Mehdi–in order to bring themselves to power

my my confusion everywhere, I think my point has been clearly made, only 12 people could not have led the Ummah from inception till date, making a fuss over 30 caliphs of the sunnis is mind boggling indeed, depending on how one intends to understand the hadith, Sunni have long interpreted it well, the caliphate was not limited to 12, but the propheised 12 spoke of those who will conduct the affairs of the ummah well.
Re: The Women Of Karbala: Keeping Imam Hussain's Message Alive by LagosShia: 5:16pm On Jan 04, 2012
vedaxcool:

Making a fuss over nothing as usual believe what you want I believe what i want
good!


come to think of it do the shia all agree on the same 12 imams?
there are shia offshoot sects just like there are smaller sunni sects and offshoots.so really we are talking of the mainstream and not the offshoots.


A group from amongst the Zaydis revered twelve Imams, but they believed in a different set of twelve Imams than the Imami Shia.
they are actually dont believe in 12 Imams.they believe in the first four imams.and then geaography and other reasons came along.so really they are not mainstream shia.its like calling ahmadiyya "sunni".nonetheless,we do respect our zaidi brothers as many of them are coming closer towards the mainstream shia islam and following the belief in the 12 Imams (as).they are realizing that you cant be shia believing that Allah chose Imam Ali (aS) and hold a sunni belief that anyone can be "caliph".this has to do with how history played them unfairly.


These Zaydis believed in the first four of the Imams of the Imami Shia, but they disagreed with the Imami Shia as to who the other eight of them were.
not like that.the zaidis started as a group of followers who supported Zaid Ibn Ali (as).after his martrdom,some of them claimed that Zaid was actually the 5th Imam and not Imam Muhammad al-Baqer (as) the great grandson of Imam Hussain (as) and half brother of Zaid (as).

anyways,that needs a whole lot of details in letting see that they followed emotions pertaining to the martrydom of Zaid Ibn Ali (as).their belief in imamate later on took a complete non-shia non-imami bend.


This group of Zaydis, like the Sunnis, believed that the Caliphate was not limited to twelve, but the Zaydis argued that the twelfth would be Al-Qa’im and he would lead an armed and political insurrection. A similar view was held by another heretical sect, namely that of the Ismailis who used the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs in order to further their own set of Imams.
actually the Zaidis are recently following the mainstream as we see in Yemen where they constitute almost half of the population.the ismailis do not believe at all in the 12th Imam (as).they stopped with the 6th Imam,Imam Ja'far Ibn Muhammad (sa).likewise,different factors came into play.however the ismailis are a case on their own.even their islamic beliefs are very doubtful.a sunni is closer to islam than an ismaili from what i see.


And there were many other deviant groups who used the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs–and other Hadith in regards to Imam Mehdi–in order to bring themselves to power
who were those?


my my confusion everywhere, I think my point has been clearly made, only 12 people could not have led the Ummah from inception till date, making a fuss over 30 caliphs of the sunnis is mind boggling indeed, depending on how one intends to understand the hadith, Sunni have long interpreted it well, the caliphate was not limited to 12, but the propheised 12 spoke of those who will conduct the affairs of the ummah well.

i think now you have began to play with meanings and the hadith.the Prophet (sa) said there would be twelve and all of them would be from Quraysh.

how sunnis ended up with more than 30 and yet cannot count 12 is mysterious!!!

when the Prophet (sa) was asked about the caliphs,he didnt say there would 12 among a number.he said the number of his successors would be like the number of the tribes of israel which is the number 12!

so when talking about Zaidis who count four  rightly guided imams among the 12 we mainstream shia believe in and you talk of ismailis who counted up to 6 from the 12,you should also add sunnis who totally ignore the 12 imams (as) and counted more than 30 many of whom are not even from Quraysh.i may be wrong,but the sunni caliphs who were from Quraysh may not even be up to 12.i stand to be corrected.however,it is true that sunnis have also gone off-track.ismailis may really be misguided and a shia offshoot who counted 6 out of 12 imams.but sunnis who carry many acts the ismailis dont,did not even count 1 out of the 12!

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