I BEGIN IN THE NAME OF THE MOST HIGH.

@BIGER BOY

this is what you said from this thread>>> https://www.nairaland.com/802617/questions-muslims-those-who-want/12

BIGER BOY: What I whsh to verify @ usisky is :

With all due respect are you a Muslim? My question arises from your choice of terminology when u type, they r a bit strange to the Islamic 'register'

I quoted for you the Quran (not the Hadith) to prove to u that the prophets lifestyle known only through authetic Hadith is also a source of authority in Islam

Passionate appeal void of backing of the Quran ( which I assumed you should be well versed in since it is ur only authority) is meaningless to me.

If you are not well grounded in that which you profess, then why should the seeing follow the blind?

"and We revealed to you (O Muhammad) AL-KITAAB and AL-HIKMAT and we taught you that which you knew not..." Quran -nisa

I suppose you can elucidate the meaning of the two bolded to us, O you person of the Quran.

the Quran says we should preach kindly and intelligently(16:125),so i have no choice than recourse to that.


One thing you should understand is: when you talk this way, you are simply trying to prove the very scripture you proclaim as the word of God wrong.
the positions i assume, are simply a reiteration of the message the Quran reverberates.
I assume you are an adult; maybe over 25 or so. So, before i address your Question, i will make these general statements.
"Anybody, who agrees 100% with his/her religion of birth(Islam or Christianity) as they are practiced today,really does so due to brainwashing and ignorance"

"Anybody, who cannot question anything in his/her religion of birth even when it contradicts common sense, simply does so out of blind faith".

"The sincere seeker, is one who accepts truth when clearly elucidated and Evident"

The quran proclaims that:
1) nothing has been left out of it(6:38)
2)its verses have been perfected(11:1)
3)harbors no contradiction(4:82)
4)Contains no ambiguity(39:28)
5)it has cited all kinds of examples for our guidance(17:41, 17:89, 30:58)
6)the revelations are very clear;as such,only wicked person(s) will contend it(2:99, 22:16, 24:1)
7)it is easy to remember/understand(54:17,22,32,40)

Now my dear friend, if you truly believe the above, then i do not need to go further in proving to you why the Hadiths and/or sunnah is not part of islam. And that your idea that the word Hekmah(wisdom) as used in the Qur'an(e.g 2:151, 2:231) refers to another revelation(Hadith/sunnah) is grossly false.

In case you maintain your view, then here are my proofs:

Before i continue, i would want you to know that i do understand that people are sensitive about the issue of religion.
And more often than not, they get too too personal about it.this is the reason i eschew such discourses, especially those unrelated to my beliefs.However, i simply cannot stand aside while a group of people promote a false representation of God, the Quran and Islam without me doing anything about it. And it will be erroneous of you to posit that i am some ignoramus or misguided individual. Cos, as far as true Islam and the Quran is concerned, none of you here can challenge me on that basis. this is because i stand by the Quran Alone; and it Alone provides all the solutions.If you doubt my challenge,then muster all you can of islamic literature from all your scholars and sources,open a fresh thread and lets commence.this challenge is open to all.


DOES HEKMAH(WISDOM) AS USED IN THE QURAN(e.g 2:151) REFER TO A DIFFERENT REVELATION OTHER THAN THE QURAN

NO IT DOES NOT!!

This false interpretation(that hekmah is revelation a.k.a Hadith/sunnah) was first promulgated by Imam shaf'i. Shaf'i had suggested that since the verses in question e.g 2:151, had made mention of "Scripture and Wisdom" in the same sentence, its only interpretation in none else than to mean another revelation(which he suggested are the Hadiths/sunna).

Where is Shaf'is evidence to further substantiate his claim? no where to be found!!! unfortunately, the muslims scholars picked up where he left off, and simply advanced this theory as though it is a fact. this is largely due to their lack of understanding of the Quran,hence the aversion.
I will provide ample proof because this subject is quite centeral to islamic theology. As usual, i recourse to using the Quran alone and the little God given wisdom i have.


CLEAR DECEIT:

Due to the fact that the Quran did not contain any mention of the words ‘Sunna’t Muhammad’, the ardent Sunni’s found it necessary to manipulate the meaning of some Quranic words so as to create a Quranic reference to their cherished ‘hadith’ and ‘Sunna’. Many sunni Muslims refer to the word (Al-Hekmah) as mentioned in 2:129,2:151, 2:231, and 33:34, when they talk about the hadiths and sunna of the Prophet Muhammed. They claim the word Al-Hekmah in these verses refer to the Hadiths and Sunna of the prophet Muhammed. That is FALSE.

This word (Al-Hekmah) as found in a number of verses as:

"Remember God’s blessings upon you, and what He sent down to you of the ‘Al-Ketab’ and ‘Al-Hekmah’ to enlighten you with it." 2:231

Literally speaking, the meaning of ‘Al-Ketab’ is the book (the Quran), and ‘Al-Hekmah’ is wisdom. Nevertheless they interpret ‘Al-Hekmah’ here to mean the Sunna(actions or deeds) of Muhammad. However, with a close inspection of the Quranic verses, it can be shown that this interpretation is a total corruption. This is due to the following reasons:

ONE :
The word ‘bihee’ (with it) that appear at the end of the verse, is in the singular mode, in other words it describes one thing and not two. For that reason the words ‘Al-Hekmah’ and ‘Al-Ketab’ must denote one thing and not two, unless of course God is making grammatical mistakes!
If the words ‘Al-Hekmah’ and ‘Al-Ketab’ really referred to the Quran and the Sunna, then the verse should grammatically end with the word ‘bihima’ (with them), which is the plural mode of ‘bihee’.

TWO :
The word ‘Al-Hekmah’ is used throughout the Quran as an adjective of the ‘Al-Ketab’ (the Quran). This is made evident in the following verses :
"Y.S., and the Quran Al-Hakim" 36:1-2
"This is what We recite to you of the ‘Ayat’ and the ‘Zekr Al-Hakim" 3:58
"A.L.R., these are the signs of the ‘Ketab Al-Hakim" 10:1 also 31:2

THREE :

The same word ‘Al-Hekmah’ is used in the Quran in connection with prophets and messengers who lived before the time of Muhammad. Obviously before Muhammad lived his Sunna did not exist. Thus to say that ‘Al-Hekmah’ means Sunna’t Muhammad is incorrect. Consider the following verses:

a- The following are God’s words to Jesus:

"And I taught you the ‘Ketab’ (Scripture) and ‘Al-Hekmah’(wisdom)." 5:110

Clearly the word ‘Al-Hekmah’ here does not mean the Sunna of Muhammad.

b- The following were the words of Abraham as he implored his Lord :

"Our Lord, and send for them a messenger from among them to recite to them your ‘Ayat’ and teach them the ‘Ketab’ (Scripture) and ‘Al-Hekmah’ (wisdom)." 2:129
Again the word ‘Al-Hekmah’ here could not mean anything but wisdom. Abraham had no knowledge of the ‘Sunna’ of Muhammad.

FOUR :

A further evidence that the word ‘Al-Hekmah’ as used in the Quran means wisdom and not Sunna is found in the following verse:

"He bestows ‘Al-Hekmah’ upon whoever He pleases, and whoever attains ‘Al-Hekmah’ has indeed attained a great blessing." 2:269

The words "whoever He pleases" in this verse indicate that God bestows ‘Al-Hekmah’ upon any of the believers and not just His messengers. If we assume that ‘Al-Hekmah’ means the Sunna we would have to believe that any ordinary believer may also have his own personal Sunna that has to be followed by other believers! This of course is not the case. The verse would instead make full sense if we think of ‘Al-Hekmah’ in its proper meaning as wisdom.

FIVE :

In Sura 17, we are given a clear demonstration of the word ‘Al-Hekmah’ as being the ability to differentiate between right and wrong and the wisdom to choose what is right. If we read the verses from 22 to 39, we find God commanding us not to worship except Him, to honor our parents, to give due alms to our relatives, the needy, the poor, and the traveling alien but without being extravagant or stingy, not to kill our children for fear of poverty, not to commit adultery, nor to abuse the orphan’s money, to trade equitably and fairly, to verify everything before following it blindly and not to act vainly. After such valuable advice God informs us that these virtues are indeed what wisdom is all about.
In that sense ‘Al-Hekmah’ is not a book of ‘hadith’ (sayings) of one single person but instead a blessing that God may bestow on any of His servants.

SIX :

Perhaps the simplest and most convincing reason for discarding the corrupted meaning of ‘Al-Hekmah’ so as to mean the Sunna, is the fact that God is neither vague nor fond of providing us with puzzles. God asserts that the Quran is straightforward, it contains no crookedness:

"An Arabic Quran, without any crookedness, that they may take heed." 39:28

Surely, had God willed that we should follow the teachings of the Quran plus the Sunna He would have mentioned the words ‘Sunna’t Muhammad’ explicitly in the Quran. Needless to say, the only Sunna that is mentioned in the Quran is the Sunna of Allah.

"This is the Sunna of God for those of the past, and you will find no alternative for the Sunna of God." 33:62

The Sunna of Allah is to be found in the Quran and previous Scripture.
Moreover if God had revealed to Muhammad an additional Sunna other than the Quran, as the Sunni’s would claim then we would expect God to say ‘We have revealed to you the Ketab and the Sunna’ or words to that effect. Instead the only Revelation endorsed in the Quran is the Quran itself:

"And We have revealed to you the Ketab (the Quran) truthfully." 5:48

Indeed God takes an oath from His prophet of what was revealed to him. The oath contains nothing but the Quran :

"Say, ‘What is the greatest testimony?’ Say, ‘God is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed you bear witness that there are other gods beside God.’ Say, ‘I do not testify as you do; but surely He is one God, and I disown your idolatry." 6:19

Finally God commands the prophet to rule and arbitrate between the people with Quran and nothing but the Quran :
"We have sent down to you this Ketab, truthfully, in order to arbitrate between the people." 4:105


SEVEN :

Finally, the word ‘Al-Hikmah’ in any Arabic dictionary means WISDOM. To leave the literal and direct meaning and accept a manipulated meaning is to reject the truth of the Quran.


In case you are still not convinced:

Lets analyze further. The word (Hekmah) ( wisdom in English,) has been used in 19 verses in the Quran for a total of 20 times (mentioned twice in 2:269) .

(1) In 3:81, God is telling us that all the Prophets are given the book and Hekmah (Wisdom). All these Prophets did not give the hadiths and sunna of Muhammed.

(2) In 3:48 God is using the same term He used for Muhammed, telling us that he gave Jesus, the book and Hekmah (wisdom). This was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.

(3) In 2:251, God is telling us that he gave the Hekmah (Wisdom) to David, it is not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.

(4) In 4:54, God is telling us He gave Abraham's family the scripture and Hekmah (wisdom). This was not muhammed's hadiths and sunna.

(5) In 16:125, God calls on the believers to use wisdom in inviting people to the path of God. Remember that God told us already that we should remind with the QURAN those who revernce His warnings. It is the Quran full of hekmah (wisdom)

(6) In 31:12, God is telling us that He gave Luqman the Hekmah (wisdom), this was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.

(7) In 43:63 Jesus is telling his people that he brought them the Hekmah (wisdom). This was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.

( The Quran is described as the book of hekmah (wisdom) by God Almighty. See 3:58, 10:1, 31:2, 36:3, 43:4, ...

(9) In 17:39 God Almighty, the author of the Quran Himself explains what the word hekmah (wisdom) means, so no one can claim any thing different.

"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearings, the eyesight, and the brain and you are responsible for using them. You shall not walk proudly on earth-you cannot bore through the earth, nor can you be as tall as the mountains. All bad behavior is condemned by your Lord. THIS IS SOME OF THE WISDOM inspired to you by your Lord. You shall not set up another god beside God, lest you end up in Gehena, blamed and defeated. " 17:36-39

Here, God is telling us that the wisdom is what is included in the Quran. It is the wisdom that comes from Him not from other men.
Some people question the wisdom of God why did He choose to mention the book and the Hekmah if both are the same. First questioning the wisdom of God is equal to disbelief. Second, if you are to understand the Quran you would know what God means by the word Hekma, it is well explained in 17:39. It is a common practice in the Arabic language to emphasize part of the whole by mentioning that part after the whole.
For example if you give some one a book that you want him to read and want to get his attention to chapter 7 for example, you would say read this book and chapter 7. This does not mean Chapter 7 is different than the book but you want to emphasize that particular part. You want him to read the book and pay special attention to chapter 7.

In 2:238, God is telling the believers,

"You shall observe the Contact Prayers, and the middle prayer and devote yourself totally to God."

In this verse God wants to emphasize the middle prayer. The middle prayer is not something different from the rest of the prayers. And so is the word hekmah (Wisdom) is a part of, and not a separate part, of the Quran. God is emphasizing the Hekmah (wisdom) included in his books. That is what 17:39 is explaining.

If you look at R. Khalifa's translation of 2:238, you will find that he put this explanation in his translation. The translation of the Arabic above is almost the exact like the Arabic text.

Khalifa's translation is "You shall consistently observe the Contact prayers, especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally to God."

For an English speaking person who is reading the literal translation above, he may think that the middle prayer is different than the rest of the prayers. Khalifa's translation above makes it easy to reach the meaning put in the Arabic text without over exerting the possibilities.
In brief the word Hekmah, in 2:129 and others do NOT refer to the hadiths and sunna of Muhammed, it is the wisdom included in the Quran. When God ordered the Prophet's wives to mention what is recited in their homes of the book and wisdom (33:34), He means to emphasize the need to mentions the wisdom , that is explained in 17:39. It means to mention the Quran and especially the wisdom coming in the Quran.

ADDRESSING YOUR CONCERNS:

>>>my choice of terminology strangely differs from traditional muslims right? It is expected to be so. Truth is always different. While you use the word ALLAH even when addressing eglish speaking audience, which automatically creates the illusion of a god other than that they know of; i ,however, use the word GOD when discussing with english speakers and ALLAH when addressing arabic speaker,because Allah is simply God in arabic. You use the word muslim to describe yourself, i use the word “SUBMITTER” which immediately rings a bell to an english speaker. So, it reallly depends on the circumstance i find myself- if in french(GOD = Dieu) etc.

>>>passiontate appeal u said? LOL. Without Quranic backing right? Well re-read my post again, then restate what you mean.

>>>if i am not grounded in that which i profess abi? Double LOL.

>>>why should the seeing follow the blind u said?? Well, if the seeing consistencly fails to see a ditch right in front of him which he always falls into, while the “BLIND” can even if using his guiding staff- perhaps, the blind should be given the benefit of doubt. Of what use is the Eye anyway, if it refuses to see what is clearly placed before it? 7:179

>>>In your first post, you mentioned: “obey God and the messenger”, “whatsoever the messenger gives you take it....”, “the messenger is the best example” etc.

If you still believe those are any proof on which you hinge your acceptance of hadith/sunnah. Then my good friend, initiate a new thread make i talk more.

The Quran Must Be Translated:

[26:198] If we revealed this to people who do not know Arabic.
[26:199] And had him recite it (in Arabic), they could not possibly believe in it.
[26:200] We thus render it (like a foreign language) in the hearts of the guilty.

In other words, a professor of the Arabic language who does not trust God’s judgment in the Quran, is denied acces to uderstanding it.(26:200, 17:45, 18:57 etc)

PEACE!!!

Mr Biger Boy. Am Waiting.....

regarding the naming of "sunnis" and the "sunnah" please watch the below video.regarding hadith,there is nothing wrong (as the OP,a so called Quranist,wants us to believe the contrary and shun all hadiths) in following authentic hadith and learning the ways of the Prophet (sa) because the Quran tells us that we have in the Prophet (sa) a perfect example (uswatun hasana).we are also told that whatever the Prophet (sa) gives us,we should take and whatever he prohibit us from,we should abstain.indeed the name of "sunni" or "ahlus-sunnah wal jamaa" is bid'ah.but the word "shia't Ali" (i.e. the Shia of Ali) was uttered by the Prophet (sa) himself!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77A8g8hXCFU

@Lagoshia

let me give you a litlle quote. It is said that:
"when you lie once,you need to lie more to cover up the first lie". This is the reality the muslims are faced with today. They invented indefensible lies, when people began to question such idiocy- they had to lie more to cover up. They forgot that inevitably, truth always prevails over falsehood.
is this how you reply to all i have said in the op? Give me quranic references, and expound on them. Please if you have any proof present it here in writing. I am using my phone so i can't watch d vid.
»you people often repeat these verses:
"in d messenger is a gud example", "whatsoever d messenger gives u take it" and "obey allah and obey d messenger". And all that yiddish. Yet i ask; do u really know what these statements mean In the light of the quran? If U believe these as a proof for anything, pls mr lagoshia- open new thread and provide your argument and i will give mine too. Always observe d difference btw u guys and me. I always use quranic verses in backing up my argument. Do same.

Pardon my late reply. Ive been busy all day and was just doing my routine Internet surfing b4 I go to bed when I saw this, so I will insha-Allah answer you. And Allah knows best.

Why I asked you if you where a Muslim was not as an insult but as I said due to your choice of terminologies, (probably the seeming disconnect between when you addressed issues straight and when you quote from the submission sites ) like when you addressed me as striving to make it into Gods kingdom? Anyway that's By the way.

I will address the premise of your argument and hopefully your derivatives therefrom should all as in the premise, be null and void.

First in general you speak of the SCIENCE OF HADITH as if there are no rules governing them. Islam is the only religion with chains of narration of the prophets life himself right from his time to present day (I.e. When they were put in written form) and the condition of acceptance are so stringent that the hadiths have various level of authenticity varrying from sahih to daif.

If I may ask how is it that you accept the Quran of the sahabas which they heard from the prophets and reject instructions which they convey to us from the prophet.Ifs it is on the basis of distrusting the sahabahs (whom Allah himself is pleased with) then why accept Quran? And if it is on basis authenticity then conduct content and textual analysis and prove the mustalahal-ahadith wrong rather than blanket and general condemnations.

Another reasoning I want us to use before I proceed to the verse in question is. What was the position of the closest companions of the prophet on the issue of hadith? Were they also rejectors of Hadith?

Now to the verses you based your argument on.

Although I quoted a verse from suratul nisa'i, I don't know why switched it to the one in baqarah, but nonetheless, the verse clearly states "and what He sent down to you of AL-KITAAB AND AL-HIKMAT" you claim that the 'bihi' that followed would have been 'bihima' ONE THING I WANT YOU TO KNOW IS THAT THE QURAN WAS THE BASIS OF ARABIC GRAMAR AND NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND. So as they would say in mathematics THE QURAN DOMINATES GRAMMAR. returning to the bihi in singular mode this is meant to be an emphasis that both sources KITAB AND HIKMAH have one origin and you can't take one and leave the other, (this is one of the beauty of the Quran, this is the reason why if it's not arabic it's not the Quran)
How do I prove this meaning? From the same Quran you claim to only believe in. ALLAH most high says "verily those who disbelief in Allah and His messenger, and they seek to differentiate between Allah and His Messenger, and they say 'we believe in some parts but reject some parts' and they seek to hold a path there in between. Indeed these are true disbelievers, and we have reserved for the unbelievers a humiliating punishment" Quran-(5:149-150). Note how Allah described them: they say they believe in some part but reject others (how is that? Not by taking 30hizb of the Quran and rejecting the other 30hizb) it started by YURARRIQUNA BAINALLAHI WA RUSULIHI I.e separating between Allah and His messenger, by saying WE BELIEVE IN QURAN GOD'S WORDS BUT REJECT THE AHADITH THE PROPHETS WORD.
Well guess what? ALLAH gave those kind of people a MAIDEN NAME "ULAAIKA HUMUL KAFIRUNA HAQQA" i.e these are the true disbelievers.

So in essence q 5:149-150 is just an exegesis of q2:231

Now another verse that backs this translation in essence is "...and obey Allah and obey his messenger and those with authority amongst you, and if you differ amongst yourself concerning anything then refer it to Allah and his Messenger" quran- nisa'i I know we can refer cases to Allah by referring to the Quran, but I ask you how do we refer to the messenger MUHAMMAD PEACE BE UPON HIM?

And if you truly submit to Allah here is what he commands you "But nay, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you the judge of what is in dispute between them, then they shall find in themselves no dislike of that which you have decreed, and submit in full submission. q4:65 note that what is at stake is not what Allah says but our acceptance of what Muhammad (saw) says, why?

Also the Quran says "Whoever obeys the Messenger, he thereby surely has obeyed Allah, and whoever turns away--We have not send you as a watcher over them. Q4:80



Now on all the places you went about quoting the word himat, hakeem or it's other derivatives, this shows lack of understanding of the Quran using words out of context. I will just answer that by one simple example just becoz Allah refers to himself as ALIYYULHAKEEM and the Quran is refered to as ZIKRULHAKEEM (note hakeem in both instances) does that make the Quran Allah, or does it make Allah the Quran. Dude u need to contextualize words to understand how they are used.

Finally before I go to sleep here is a stern warning from the Quran on those who take your path. The Qur'an 24:63, {. . . So let those who go against his (the Prophet)
command beware, lest a trial befall them, or there befall them a painful chastisement.}

Brother I end with pointing out the fallacy of rejecting the hadits in blanket generalization (nothing wrong in rejecting the daif among them) there are lots of verses which you cant reconcile their meanings like the ones i quoted above except you "obey Allah and his messenger and find no grudge against the prophets sayings and submit in utter submission" may Allah guide me and you to the right path.

usisky: @Lagoshia

let me give you a litlle quote. It is said that:
"when you lie once,you need to lie more to cover up the first lie". This is the reality the muslims are faced with today. They invented indefensible lies, when people began to question such idiocy- they had to lie more to cover up. They forgot that inevitably, truth always prevails over falsehood.
is this how you reply to all i have said in the op? Give me quranic references, and expound on them. Please if you have any proof present it here in writing. I am using my phone so i can't watch d vid.
»you people often repeat these verses:
"in d messenger is a gud example", "whatsoever d messenger gives u take it" and "obey allah and obey d messenger". And all that yiddish. Yet i ask; do u really know what these statements mean In the light of the quran? If U believe these as a proof for anything, pls mr lagoshia- open new thread and provide your argument and i will give mine too. Always observe d difference btw u guys and me. I always use quranic verses in backing up my argument. Do same.

if i can call you a brother,let me make it plain to you and not spend more time than needed.there is no interpretation that Rashad Khalifa can conjure to convince us that those verses mean something else and we should not follow authentic hadiths.the science of hadith is there to separate truth from falsehood.and if you believe in the Quran so much,i dont see why you cannot depend on the Quran to obtain the details agreeable to Quranic principles from hadith than to throw all hadiths away.the truth of the Quran can help us shine light into hadith study.

if you can prove to me either from the Quran or from anywhere that following hadiths (authentic ones) is haram,then i am ready to follow you.but there is none,so i won't follow you and become a "submitter" or "Quranist" or "Quran only muslim".actually the last two terms you describe yourself are wrong because in essence every muslim is a Quranist and follows the Quran only as everything goes back to the Quran for judgement.

moreover,had you viewed the video i presented,then you will get a better idea of what i am saying in following what the Prophet (sa) taught us or explained.so watch the video when you get a pc to come online.

you said the difference between us and you is that you always use Quranic verse.it is of no significance to use verse from the Holy Quran (as you did in the other thread) and give a wrong interpretation or translation of the verse.when need be to use a verse,i will.and when need be to explain,i will also.i mentioned some verses asking us to follow the Messenger (sa) but you ignored them and asked me if i know what they mean.may be you should tell us.besides,you OP is long and honestly didn't read all.its the same story we know that we should not follow any hadith that you will tell us.this is so trivial that you have built a "sect" on the idea.

LagosShia:

if i can call you a brother,let me make it plain to you and not spend more time than needed.there is no interpretation that Rashad Khalifa can conjure to convince us that those verses mean something else and we should not follow authentic hadiths.the science of hadith is there to separate truth from falsehood.and if you believe in the Quran so much,i dont see why you cannot depend on the Quran to obtain the details agreeable to Quranic principles from hadith than to throw all hadiths away.the truth of the Quran can help us shine light into hadith study.

if you can prove to me either from the Quran or from anywhere that following hadiths (authentic ones) is haram,then i am ready to follow you.but there is none,so i won't follow you and become a "submitter" or "Quranist" or "Quran only muslim".actually the last two terms you describe yourself are wrong because in essence every muslim is a Quranist and follows the Quran only as everything goes back to the Quran for judgement.

moreover,had you viewed the video i presented,then you will get a better idea of what i am saying in following what the Prophet (sa) taught us or explained.so watch the video when you get a pc to come online.

coward

Logic Mind:

coward

peace!

@BIGER BOY - PEACE

Thanks for replying. Mr, have you noticed that you never really touched on the key points i raised in the op? Instead, you merry-go-round the same things; raising more questions. What really was the body of my op?
1)to begin with, i gave verses from the quran where the author says the following about the quran itself:
a)nothing is left out of it(6:38)
b)perfected verses(11:1)
c)a complete scripture(6:115)
d)no ambiguity(39:28)
e)all possible examples have been cited therein(17:41,17:89,30:58)
f)God does not suffer shortage of words(18:109)
i would expect you at least said something about those citations.

2)the main argument in the body of the op you did not address. I had cited numerous examples of word to word correspondence between the word in contention and how they are also likened to previous messengers prior to muhammad. And that that alone suggests that the idea of using the word(hekmah) as an argument was fallacious. Yet, you did not even try to debunk that assertion. In a benign fashion you side stepped the real argument by intrducing more questions.
Read the op again and come back with clear rebuttal concerning the particular argument: can the use of the word "al hekmah" in the quran be used as an argument to support hadith advocacy? Please i need concrete proof, i am here to learn too.
i will address your other points shortly, insh'allah.....

@Lagoshia- peace
now you are talking! You need solid proof as to why the hadith in its entirety should be rejected right? I will do that God willing. Before that; i will want you to do me one favor. Since you know arabic; this is what i want you to do:
1)check all the references made to the word hadith in the quran and observe what those verse are trying to indicate.
2)look up all the verses that talk about upholding the quran alone and consequence of failing to do just that.
i want you to be the one to discover things for youselF. It's really sad that people hate to read. You complain that my post was lengthy. In truth, it's not. If you are sincere, you will present your findings here; then we may advance further. If you can't find all the references, alert me so i can provide them. Sallam

Dude am not in the habit of refuting baseless claims. I gave you a particular exegesis of the Quran by the Quran, of the verse which was the premise of this entire argument (not by the Hadith nor scholars) if that doesn't answer you I wonder what will.
Even some of the references you gave are wrong (for instance where you quoted "we have left nothing out of it" and I am not going to indulge you further by given you the right reference)
As I said earlier words appear In the Quran with diffenrtt meaning in the Quran based on different factors like context, asbabunuzul, etc. By mere seeing you translating every KITAAB you find in the Quran as meaning the Quran, I know your problem stems from understanding classical arabic and structure of quranic verses.

But it's not my place to teach you that, go and learn from scholars and stay off the Internet until u r able to separate chalk from cheese. As I said earlier may Allah guide all of us.

Usisky,

Your statements are so misguided that it is difficult to know where to start from. Reading through your write-ups gives me a headache because it is devoid of understanding.

What do you understand of classical Arabic? Do you have an understanding the roots of words? Do you realise that each verse in the Quran has a context? How can you dismiss the audience of the Quran in your interpretation?


May Allah guide us all.

@BIGER BOY
what more can i say?

Regarding the false reference: no be my fault oga. Na the nairaland Code dey seem to chop the numeral eight wen i write am. Anyway, the verse is: sura al-an'am, verse thirty eight. I.e 6:thirty eight. Sallam

@Tbaba- sallam
thanks for kind words.
the following is enough to religate such a thought you have presented:
study: 26:198-200.
study:41:44.
note: i said "study" and not "read".
when u have fully meditated on the message the almighty wishes to convey there, Come back make we gist more. Peace

ma sallam:

Do you know the audience of 26:198-200? Remember the quran was revealed as speech::

Tell me the audience, then we can better understand it....

Same goes with
41:44

The Quran was revealed as speech to people::

Who was the Quran talking to here??

Let's move from there

@Tbaba
i know where you heading to. The concocted concept of reason for revelation(asbab al-nzl) is a complete joke. The quran is The word of the almighty. Whatever example we find therein is to serve as a lesson or a law. While u agree with Scholars who invented these lies, u yet fail to ally yourself with the message muhammad proclaimed.i was not present during the time of the prophet, neither Were u or the so called scholars who invented these lies.God says"none can inform us like the most cognizant"(35:14). I think i'd rather trust what i can fathom from d quran,than to trust some misguided mullah(s). Without much ado, i will like u to please explain to me and all what is meant by the following quranic proclamations:
1)"we did not leave anything out of this book" chpt. 6: Verse thirty eight.
2)"the word of your lord is complete" 6:115
3)"remind with this quran those who reverence my warnings" (50:45). Why specifically the quran?
4)"He is the witness btwn me and u that this quran has been inspired to me to preach it to u and whomever it reaches"(6:19). Again, why specifically the quran alone?

these will suffice for now.

[2:170]when they are told, "follow what God has revealed herein", they say, "we follow only what we find our parents doing".what if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?

usisky: @Lagoshia- peace
now you are talking! You need solid proof as to why the hadith in its entirety should be rejected right? I will do that God willing. Before that; i will want you to do me one favor. Since you know arabic; this is what i want you to do:
1)check all the references made to the word hadith in the quran and observe what those verse are trying to indicate.
2)look up all the verses that talk about upholding the quran alone and consequence of failing to do just that.
i want you to be the one to discover things for youselF. It's really sad that people hate to read. You complain that my post was lengthy. In truth, it's not. If you are sincere, you will present your findings here; then we may advance further. If you can't find all the references, alert me so i can provide them. Sallam

going by the Quran,when the word "hadith" is used,it implies more than one definition."hadith can mean conversation and also in the context you want to imply,it means narrations of the Prophet's (sa) sayings.in the Quran,we are told to shun false hadith.

having prophetic narrations (hadith books containing authentic hadiths) does not negate upholding the Quran except you can prove otherwise.

You cannot fully grasp the meaning of things without understanding the context and why it was said... To fully understand the Quran you need to understand why certain verses or chapters were revealed:

Allah says the Quran has been made clear: It doesn't mean it has been made simple.... I could clearly solve a differential problem but if you have no idea of differential equations, you will be lost.

The Quran literally means the recitation. It was recited to an audience: It was used to admonish an audience via its recitation. You have to understand the flow of the Quran

Do not quote half verses of the Quran: quote the one before and the one after. To fully obtain the context for instance

6:37-39

37. And they said: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord'' Say: "Allah is certainly able to send down a sign, but most of them know not.'')

As you can see this relates to a conversation: Someone asked a question and the prophet is commanded to respond::: How do you fully grasp this without an understsnding of why the question was asked?

38. There is not a moving creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are Umam (community) like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered.

This talks about the creatures on the earth and how all the creatures have been recorded in the book and how they shall all be gathered: It has nothing to do with the Quran. The theme is the creatures of the earth.

We have neglected nothing in the Book, means, the knowledge about all things is with Allah, and He never forgets any of His creatures, nor their sustenance, nor their affairs, whether these creatures live in the sea or on land.

39. Those who reject Our Ayat are deaf and dumb in darkness. Allah sends astray whom He wills and He guides on the straight path whom He wills.

Following the general theme: They asked for signs, Allah (SWT) talks about his creatures (those are signs):: Whoever rejects these signs are deaf, dumb and blind...

Who are these people that asked for signs??

As you can see this discussion has nothing to do with point you are trying to make

Understand the context of a discussion before drawing conclusion:: The same goes for the remaining verses::

@BIGER BOY- again; i say sallam

4:65 ? You and many people i have chats with regarding the subject of hadith always bring up such verse and similar ones you have consistently repeated.it is though u all are getting your info from same source. This only suggests to me that this is what you people have been taught and u gladly obliged without corroboration with the entire scripture. Let me point out your mistake.
1)from the other thread i initiated: scriptural mistranslation. I had boldly asserted that: one d reason i believe the muslims do not understand the quran, is because they tend not to look at a verse under consideration in view of the entire quran or al least the complete chapter where such verse is.
here, i will confirm my assertion to be accurate yet again.
Now, based on what u trying to indicate: that we must allow d messenger judge our disputes if we are truly believers. And that his(messenger) rulings can be found only in hadiths right? now this a terrible conclusion. Why?
»»what is the source of the messenger's rulings?
if you had read the entire sura,clearly, u would have realized that God commands the prophet to judge all matters based on the quranic law and not his personal opinions.
In(4:105), God categorically tells the prophet to judge using the quran and not his own wishes or others.
Also(4:58) confirms similar message.

God calls the quran the statute(furqaan) book(2:185). I ask; what is the meaning of statute? It means quran itself is the law.

you tend to forget that the quran was recited by prophet muhammad From his mouth directly. What other book can we call the hadith of muhammad if not the quran he recited? Think about it!

i will deal with the others God willing. Peace

@Tbaba - peace
LoL @ your differential eqution analogy. Abi na convoluted integral? Abi na linear/exponential/regressional integral. I dey laff o.

On a serious note; your gymnastics did not explain anything to me. "We did not leave anything out of this book". The keyword is nothing/anything.

»»To understand d quran i need to know d historical context abi? Well this Is ur personal opinion mr tbaba. This is what muhammad told us: review(17:45, 18:57, 41:44, 56:79).
make i observe my contact prayer first.

@ usisky
May Allah grant us the full understanding of islam and guide us aright amin.
I personally would see no reason for your strong rejection of the hadith/sunnah of the prophet since you believe that the prophet(saw) was a messanger of Allah(swt).
The Quran clearly state the reasons for sending the messanger and the ultimate being as a rahmah to humanity, dont you think his lifestyle is important to us as muslims? Also knowing that Allah has said in him we find the best example.
The Quran was revealed within a span of 23years, saying sababu nuzul is irrelevant when translating a quranic verse is quite wrong, for the Quran would have been revealed just in a day.
Mind you, when these verses were revealed, questions will arise from the people and explanations would have been given by the prophet, without hadiths and sunnah can we understand? the quran states that the prophet doesnt speak on his own accord rather what is being inspired, do you think this is talking about the quran alone?
The life of the prophet was the practical apllication of the Quran, his teachings cannot be ignored cos he wouldnt speak in regards to the religion his own choice.
The Quran states in surah isra that Allah(swt) took the prophet up into the heavens in the night of isra wal miraj, to show him His signs, the prophet came back to tell his companions his journey and what transpired, dont you think we need to know what happened? What the prophet saw and what information he has brought to mankind from his lord?
Indeed the Quran is parfect, Allah chose the prophet to be the conveyer of his message, he is not an anyhow person, Allah says to the prophet(saw) say to them, if you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins.(Q 3vs31) how do we follow the prophet(saw) if we dont learn his teachings and ways of life? Infact how he practiced the religion you and i profess today?

@Tbaba

this will be my final response to u. If u do not get this final logic, then there's nothing i can possibly do. My duty as a follower of quran is to remind. I cannot guide anybody, only God guides those who deserve it by virtue of the belief they have in them(10:9).

God, the almighty.the author of the quran has said:
In(3:7), that the quran contains "straightforward verses" as well as "allegorical ones". As such; the allegorical ones is only discernable by God and those well founded in certain kind knowledge.

Let us not concern ourselves with the allegorical ones. Now, the author of the quran says: "the straightforward verses constitute the essence of the scripture".
The import of this statement cannot be over emphasized.

According to the author of the quran; anybody whose brain is still funtioning should be able to discern the meaning of these direct verses.

upon this statement; i present the following test for u tbaba:

1)ablution: this ritual is mentioned in 5:6, and only four steps are mentioned. The verse is straightforward. Please tell the audience following along with us if u do perform it Exactly as stated by d almighty God who never errs?.

2)tone of sallat: it is mentioned in 17:110, that all sallat should be uttered in a moderate tone. Please, do u say all ur sallat exactly as commanded by the most wise? Or do u say some silently and some aloud?

If u do the two above exactly. Then i rest my case. If not, then i argue further:

a)that based on this straightforward illustration: arabic knowledge or historical context of revelation is never a criterion for understanding d message of d most gracious.

b)in case u bring up argument such as: circumstances led to the modifications of the above commandments. Then i say onto u, that u have just stripped God of His omniscience. because, if u believe God is omniscient; u would understand that His commands are final, because He has forseen all d possible permutations that may arise.
to be continued.....

First of all, the Quran is the word of Allah (SWT) not Mohammed(SAW)

What gymnastics??

Follow the flow of the discussion in the Quran:: Do not give meanings of your own...

Do not quote half verses for me:: Quote the verse before and after: Then we can have a proper understanding of the Ayah. I already showed that the ayah has nothing to do with your interpretation as it was talking of the living creatures on the earth.

The historical context is key as i mentioned before: I will give you another example to help you:

Allah says in the Quran:

Say, “Have you considered: if it [i.e., the Qur’an] was from God, and you disbelieved in it while a witness from the Children of Israel has testified to something similar and believed while you were arrogant...?" Indeed, God does not guide the wrongdoing people. (46:10)

So who is this witness from the children of israel that believed in the word of Allah?? How do you know what this is talking about without understanding the context of revelation>>>

A rabbi in medina called Abdullah ibn Salam became muslim and this reference was to him becoming muslim: The discussion is directed at the jews in medina.... To fully grasp this, You must understand the historical context...

The Quran did not fall from the heavens as a book: It was recited to human beings>>>> How can you ignore that audience and say you have a proper understanding:::
To fail to recognise that is the biggest fail of your ideology.

The verses you quote have no implication here...

^^^Thanks for the enlightnment.
i agree with u. I agree that context must be looked at. Pls read d entire sura and especially: 6:38, 6:112, 6:114, 6:115.

no amount literature u cite will make neglect d word of the most cognizant. U seem to think i grew up with this belief of mine. I was in position too a while ago. I don't think there is hardly any islamic literature i did not aquaint with. The fact remains.....word of men remain word of men.

OP, if you say you want to stick to the Qur'an exclusively, I don't think I have a problem with that. My question to you is: why do you deem it necessary to engage those who want to follow hadith in a debate? Are you saying no hadith worth following exist or it is sinful to follow hadith as a means to establish guidance and judgement on issues in Islam?

.....Continuing from where i stopped earlier.

I had cited only two instances of how d muslims do not follow d quran. There hundreds of other cases.

I would want some rational explanation why muhammad will tell us a certain command has been issued by God, when it's time for him to now demonstrate such a command he goes on does something else. Where is God's omnisciensce if that's d case?

I follow d quran alone because i am afraid of the same retribution muhammad said he feared if ever looked elsewhere than the quran(6:19, 17:73-75).

to be continued....

Fine there are allegorical verses in the Quran and that are understood... There are still many things we just accept.

But if you do not understand the historical context you can not understand any of the Quran because it was mainly a recitation not a written text...

When Allah says : May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined,and ruined is he.

Who is Abu lahab? why will Allah curse him?? This is pretty straightforward nothing allegorical here....

Without the historical context, you are a fish on land:::

You spoke about wudoo' and salat: you just keep setting yourself up::

How do you know how to make salat without knowing the way the prophet did??

1. O you who believe! When you stand (intend) to offer the Salah (the prayer), then wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba, purify yourselves (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from the Gha'it (toilet) or you have touched women and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favor to you that you may be thankful.) (5:6)

Before going into the wudu issue: The Quran says: Do not pray in a state of Janabah::: What is the state of Janabah? Without understanding the historical context you can not understand what Janabah means.....

So the Quran says for wudu:

then wash your faces
and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows,
rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads,
and (wash) your feet up to the ankles.

I do all of these when performing wudu (and more) not from this verse alone but from the example of the prophet. The Quran states:

“Indeed in the Messenger of Allaah (Muhammad) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes for (the Meeting with) Allaah and the Last Day, and remembers Allaah much”

[al-Ahzaab 33:21]

He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). (The Noble Qur'an 4:

The record of the prophet wudu is with us: So we understand what Janaba is and how to properly make wudu by following his example. I obey Allah and his messenger::

It looks like you have abandoned the Messenger.

Qur'an only gives you the basics of washing, but The Prophet's Sunnah gives you complete details of making an acceptable wudu.

2. The salat tone:

Why were the muslims told to moderate their voice in prayer? How can you say you understand the quran when you do not know why things were revealed.

Let me help you:

Ibn `Abbas (a companion of the prophet) said: "When he (SAW) prayed with his Companions, he would recite Qur'an loudly, and when the idolators heard that, they insulted the Qur'an, and the One Who had revealed it and the one who had brought it. So Allah said to His Prophet :

And offer your Salah (prayer) neither aloud) means, do not recite it aloud, lest the idolators hear you and insult the Qur'an

based on the context of the revelation, a proper understanding is :do not say loudly the reading in your prayer and your supplication of your Lord and your asking of Him and the mention of Allaah lest the polytheist hear you and harm you (if you live in a hostile community like mecca was). Do not also say them in a low voice lest your companions do not hear you and take a way between the two.

This is easily comprehensible because the context was sought.

How can you say that the language of revelation and the historical context is unimportant?? The depth of the arabic language is one of the miracles of the quran... Understanding classical arabic quite literally blows my mind away.... That understanding is lost in English.... Allah calls the Quran an Arabic Quran numerous times....

The book is only the quran in arabic.

@Maclatunji- sallam

i appreciate honest comment.have U honestly observed around u, what d world thinks of islam today? Why is islam d way it is today? I don't debate or argue for the sake of it. I do it because d image of islam is what i am trying to redeem. I am of the opinion that the hadith is d reason islam is seen as evil and an intolerant religion. When u are done studying d so called "sahi'h hadiths" then come back and tell me am wrong. Study the history of hadith, the era of the compilers, d part of d world they emerged frm. U would realized this were enemies of the prophet at work as prophesied(6:112). Quran by itself is beautiful. Later sir, got some work to do. Sallam

What is 6:38?? you keep quoting please understand the conversation, it does not refer to the Quran:: I already gave an explanation above.

usisky: @Maclatunji- sallam

i appreciate honest comment.have U honestly observed around u, what d world thinks of islam today? Why is islam d way it is today? I don't debate or argue for the sake of it. I do it because d image of islam is what i am trying to redeem. I am of the opinion that the hadith is d reason islam is seen as evil and an intolerant religion. When u are done studying d so called "sahi'h hadiths" then come back and tell me am wrong. Study the history of hadith, the era of the compilers, d part of d world they emerged frm. U would realized this were enemies of the prophet at work as prophesied(6:112). Quran by itself is beautiful. Later sir, got some work to do. Sallam

have you heard of wahhabism? its like saying "muslims are violent because they read the Quran" as christians like repeating.

I am amazed that you keep to this line of argument even after been overwhelmed by evidence.

1. You claim KITAAB in 6:38 means the Quran even after yove been presented with the context. Nay it means the ummul-KITAAB

2. On what basis do you reject the Hadith? You have meticulously shown where we are ordered to obey the Quran, BUT YOU'VE SO FAR FAILED TO SHOW WHERE WE ARE ASKED TO REJECT THE PROPHET OR HADITH (if anything, ample evidence have been shown to you that the Quran asked us to refer to the prophet SAW in rulings of religion.

3. the Quran went out of it's way to quote STORIES ("indeed in their stories are signs". Yusuf) DEEDS ("and he (ismail) used to command his family with prayer and charity..". Maryam) WORDS("and when Abraham said to his father...". Anam) AND PRAYERS ("and when Abraham said O lord keep this land safe...". Baqara) of previous prophets as source of guidance for us. And you are here telling us to throw the examples of our most beloved out of the window. FA AYYUL FARIQAINI AHAQQU BIL ANM?

3. Among the duties of the prophets is not just bringing the message but explaining it("and We have not sent a messenger except in the language of his people that HE(the messenger) may explain to them". Ibrahim)

So I don't know what else you need to know. Take for instance a professor of statistics tells a class to pass my exam read only the statistics textbook you will find all you need. But under the topic review of hypothesis testing the text book asks you to refer to your T-tables so as to get the values of t at different degrees of freedom. IS REFERING TO THE STUDENT T TABLE CONTRADICTING MY PROFESSORS INSTRUCTION OF USING ONLY THE TEXTBOOK.? Of course no! Because both the textbook and the t table serve one purpose- solving the problem. (thus do We make our signs clear to them - Quran)

@usisky, ori bibe ko ni ogun ori fifo, an outright rejection of hadith and sunnah can never be a solution to the way in which islam is being viewed. I would like to ask, some christians do use verses from the Quran to claim that islam is evil, do you reject those verses? And if they do quote the verse like Q 9:29, how do you explain yourself?