@ Logicboy, it seems to me you simply dont have the patience to read the links which Pastor AIO placed up there for you. As one who has gone to extensive lengths to understand him, I can relate with your frustrations. I do however recommend that you look up those links. But just as a guide for you, let me tell you a few things straight up -

1. The word "Pastor" in his username has nothing to do with what you might think

2. If by the word "christian" you refer to one who believes in biblical infallibility and the motions and forms of the religion, count him out. This chap has on many occassions argued ardently against things which people cite in the Bible, including the ontology of the Judaic god(s). Substance weighs over form for him.

3. If by the word "christian" you refer to one who subcribes to the teachings of christ and seeks to emulate christ, yes he would call himself Christian.

Generally, you need to slow down. This chap is a hydra-headed monster of "staggering" (wink, Pastor) brilliance, knowledge, humour and complexity. It might take sometime to come to some faint grips with him. All I can tell you is DO NOT make assumptions regarding him at all!

I recall noetic even branded him deist, although he is anything but. Although I understand why noetic said that.

Pastor AIO: I wonder if anyone here is actually reading any of the write ups that I'm writing or am I just wasting my time. Has there ever been a religious war that didn't have a strong political dimension?

Generally agree, but there have been some wars in history with overtly religious agendas.

But you are on point sha.

Well done! I am elated by the fact that someone is interested enough in this to write up so much as you have done.

Deep Sight:
@ Logicboy, it seems to me you simply dont have the patience to read the links which Pastor AIO placed up there for you. As one who has gone to extensive lengths to understand him, I can relate with your frustrations. I do however recommend that you look up those links. But just as a guide for you, let me tell you a few things straight up -

1. The word "Pastor" in his username has nothing to do with what you might think

2. If by the word "christian" you refer to one who believes in biblical infallibility and the motions and forms of the religion, count him out. This chap has on many occassions argued ardently against things which people cite in the Bible, including the ontology of the Judaic god(s). Substance weighs over form for him.

3. If by the word "christian" you refer to one who subcribes to the teachings of christ and seeks to emulate christ, yes he would call himself Christian.

Generally, you need to slow down. This chap is a hydra-headed monster of "staggering" (wink, Pastor) brilliance, knowledge, humour and complexity. It might take sometime to come to some faint grips with him. All I can tell you is DO NOT make assumptions regarding him at all!

I recall noetic even branded him deist, although he is anything but. Although I understand why noetic said that.

I might not understand PastorAIO but I sure know something important about you. You are an empty shell of a human being that needs to be subservient to another being before feeling any self worth in life.

If PastorAOI is too lazy or proud to explain his belief to me directly, then he should be ready to shoulder the burden of the consequences. He shouldnt need you or links to defend his beliefs.

Thanks for being a stooge

Na wa... a religious war's about to begin..

logicboy:

I might not understand PastorAIO but I sure know something important about you. You are an empty shell of a human being that needs to be subservient to another being before feeling any self worth in life.

If PastorAOI is too lazy or proud to explain his belief to me directly, then he should be ready to shoulder the burden of the consequences. He shouldnt need you or links to defend his beliefs.

Thanks for being a stooge

Palaver. Thought I was helping your inquiries. You are welcome sha. Good luck.

@logicboy.
You seem to be on this forum for a different reason than most of us. You have a habit of hurling unwarranted insults at our most respected veterans of this forum. You seem to be very angry at everyone. Are you suffering from some type of rejection syndrome or is it just youthful exuberance?
I like to think that we are all here to learn, not to win converts or fight any imaginary enemies.
You need to show humility, otherwise, your bellicose and pugnacious attitude will obscure whatever intelligent contributions you are trying to make on this forum.

Heed.

@Pastor AIO:
Thank you for your efforts. History is very important.It is said that those who ignore the lessons of history are bound to repeat the mistakes. The Europeans have lived through and know more about religion than we do, that is why they try as much to protect their young from it.
However, I do not understand your argument or leaning that politics , rather than religion is the cause of wars, destruction and much evil. I am aslo in disagreement with this much touted notion that relgion can be a force for good. As someone who loves and knows much about history, can you show us intances, in any era, where religion has been a force for good-promoting peaceful co-existence between a man and his neighbor, between a nation and her neighbors, promoting peace, freedom, equity and justice.

Its similar to the gun debate in the US.I find it very funny indeed. The pro-gun people always say that guns are good, guns protect etc, and ,that it is guns in the hands of bad people that are dangerous. The same people will also tell us that smoking marajuana is bad whether it is used by good or bad people. Which of these arguments do you subscribe to ?
Human nature is human nature. We are like todlers. If we are given a safe and rubbery toy to play with, obviously, we would play safely without hurting ourselves. But if on the other hand, we are given a dangerous toy with sharp edges to play with,we would most likely hurt ourselves and maybe others too.
Religion is a dangerous toy or tool. It is almost guranteed to cause injuries when and wherever it is employed. Would you allow your children to play with a a nice and exciting toy even it has the potential to cause them great harm. I think not.

@Pastor AIO
Reading the history of the Spanish Armada shows that the storm you talked about occurred much later in the battle proceedings between the English and the Spanish fleets. Besides the English fleet out numbered the Spanish 200 to 130. Thus I doubt the English needed the advantage of an Occult Event to fight the Spanish.

The commanders of the English fleets were Sir Francis Drake, the Earl of Nottingham and Sir John Hawkins. Sir Walter Raleigh did not take part in that battle.

Please maintain historical accuracy if you wish to do these sought of "exposé".

Deep Sight:

Palaver. Thought I was helping your inquiries. You are welcome sha. Good luck.

Sorry.

plaetton: @logicboy.
You seem to be on this forum for a different reason than most of us. You have a habit of hurling unwarranted insults at our most respected veterans of this forum. You seem to be very angry at everyone. Are you suffering from some type of rejection syndrome or is it just youthful exuberance?
I like to think that we are all here to learn, not to win converts or fight any imaginary enemies.
You need to show humility, otherwise, your bellicose and pugnacious attitude will obscure whatever intelligent contributions you are trying to make on this forum.

Heed.

I am not angry at everyone. I dont know who is who here. I am just here to debate but if anyone wants to insult me, I insult back in twofold.


Are you sure that you're not mistaking me for logic mind? Logic mind is less patient with the christians here on NL because he knows them.

OMG logic boy/logic mind. Confusing.
But am glad you have apologised.
Just take am easy.

plaetton: Yess indeed. i did mistake you for logic mind.
My apologies.
I will make the correction.

No probs

Lord_Reed: @Pastor AIO
Reading the history of the Spanish Armada shows that the storm you talked about occurred much later in the battle proceedings between the English and the Spanish fleets. Besides the English fleet out numbered the Spanish 200 to 130. Thus I doubt the English needed the advantage of an Occult Event to fight the Spanish.

The commanders of the English fleets were Sir Francis Drake, the Earl of Nottingham and Sir John Hawkins. Sir Walter Raleigh did not take part in that battle.

Please maintain historical accuracy if you wish to do these sought of "exposé".

Thanks for the corrections. I wasn't sure about Walter Raleigh, I was writing off the top of my head and didn't check references when I was writing that part. However I am quite sure that the storm occurred before the confrontation of the English fleet and the Armada. The Armada was the greatest naval force in the world at that time so there is no way that the English fleet would have outnumbered the Armada unless something drastic had happened to the Armada before the encounter.

Could you please show us the link where you found that the storm took place later in the battle proceedings.

Deep Sight:
@ Logicboy, it seems to me you simply dont have the patience to read the links which Pastor AIO placed up there for you. As one who has gone to extensive lengths to understand him, I can relate with your frustrations. I do however recommend that you look up those links. But just as a guide for you, let me tell you a few things straight up -

1. The word "Pastor" in his username has nothing to do with what you might think

2. If by the word "christian" you refer to one who believes in biblical infallibility and the motions and forms of the religion, count him out. This chap has on many occassions argued ardently against things which people cite in the Bible, including the ontology of the Judaic god(s). Substance weighs over form for him.

3. If by the word "christian" you refer to one who subcribes to the teachings of christ and seeks to emulate christ, yes he would call himself Christian.

Generally, you need to slow down. This chap is a hydra-headed monster of "staggering" (wink, Pastor) brilliance, knowledge, humour and complexity. It might take sometime to come to some faint grips with him. All I can tell you is DO NOT make assumptions regarding him at all!

I recall noetic even branded him deist, although he is anything but. Although I understand why noetic said that.

Tanks you!!

Deep Sight:

Generally agree, but there have been some wars in history with overtly religious agendas.

But you are on point sha.

Well done! I am elated by the fact that someone is interested enough in this to write up so much as you have done.

Could you give us any instance of such a war?

logicboy:
If PastorAOI is too lazy or proud to explain his belief to me directly, then he should be ready to shoulder the burden of the consequences. He shouldnt need you or links to defend his beliefs.

It is not a problem. I can't be bothered to go into it with you, after all it's taken me about 4 years to lay out my position for people here that know of me, and even then I'm not sure that I've put it across accurately enough. If it is not important enough for you to warrant following the links then it definitely not important enough to me to write out everything that is on those links all over again just for you. You're not that important to me!

Check this:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_armada#_

The Spanish Armada was chased past Scotland and the fleet Admiral decided to sail past the coast of Ireland to get back to Spain. It was off the coast of Ireland they experienced the storms.

They had not picked up the invading army so they were not a threat thus the English didn't need an Occultic Event.

Also check: historylearningsite.co.uk/spanish_armada.htm

plaetton: @Pastor AIO:
Thank you for your efforts. History is very important.It is said that those who ignore the lessons of history are bound to repeat the mistakes. The Europeans have lived through and know more about religion than we do, that is why they try as much to protect their young from it.
However, I do not understand your argument or leaning that politics , rather than religion is the cause of wars, destruction and much evil. I am aslo in disagreement with this much touted notion that relgion can be a force for good. As someone who loves and knows much about history, can you show us intances, in any era, where religion has been a force for good-promoting peaceful co-existence between a man and his neighbor, between a nation and her neighbors, promoting peace, freedom, equity and justice.

First I like to draw a distinction between what I call Religion and what I call Religionism. When you ask for instances in history were religion has been a force for good, I suspect that you are actually talking about religionism. religionism is a body of theories and ideologies and doctrines that are often used as political tools. However for me Religion is a very practical affair whose purpose is to bring about harmony between a person and his circumstances.

You will not find instances of religionism bringing peace in the world unless you can find instances of politics bringing peace in the world. Religionism and all other -isms are just political tools.

Pastor AIO:

It is not a problem. I can't be bothered to go into it with you, after all it's taken me about 4 years to lay out my position for people here that know of me, and even then I'm not sure that I've put it across accurately enough. If it is not important enough for you to warrant following the links then it definitely not important enough to me to write out everything that is on those links all over again just for you. You're not that important to me!

Pride and lies. What kind of nonsense is that? Why are you lying? It takes no one 4 years to explain his or her beliefs. 4 years??

Unless you're the most special person in the world, you are a proud liar

Nice historical thread. I'm subscribing

logicboy:


Pride and lies. What kind of nonsense is that? Why are you lying? It takes no one 4 years to explain his or her beliefs. 4 years??

Unless you're the most special person in the world, you are a proud liar

Thank you, let's leave it like that.

Read the links, Pst AIO.. helped me understand most of your posts on this thread... I'm still curious as to if this thread will be able to proffer a solution of sorts to the quagmire Nigeria currently finds itself in...

Lord_Reed: Check this:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_armada#_

The Spanish Armada was chased past Scotland and the fleet Admiral decided to sail past the coast of Ireland to get back to Spain. It was off the coast of Ireland they experienced the storms.

They had not picked up the invading army so they were not a threat thus the English didn't need an Occultic Event.

Also check: historylearningsite.co.uk/spanish_armada.htm

You're right, the storms occurred before they got to Ireland. However it was the storm that destroyed the Armada, not the english fleet. The english fleet did not chase them past scotland, i don't think. The english fleet returned because they couldn't stand the stormy weather.
To be honest I've heard so many different accounts, including that the Armada went around scotland because they were blown off course by the storm.

Another interesting anecdote about that affair was that the remains of the Spanish fleet thought that it would be safe for them to dock in Ireland because Ireland was a catholic country like them. When they got to Ireland the Irish attacked them. LOL! So much for religious solidarity!! That event and other such events that occurred in the 30 years war supports the point that it is political considerations that come first in religious wars and not religious considerations. Religionism is only a political tool and will be discarded when it loses it's political value.

Here is an interesting excerpt from a website about the period and their occultic activities. Unfortunately it doesn't give us any tight references to follow:

Information supplied to Sir Francis Walsingham from his European spy network convinced him that a Spanish armada would be launched against England in 1588. He asked Dee to use his knowledge of astrology to calculate the weather prospects for an invasion. The magus told him there would an impending disaster in Europe caused by a devastating storm. When news of this prophecy was leaked and reached Spain, naval recruitment fell and there were desertions of sailors from the Spanish Fleet. In Lisbon an astrologer who repeated the prediction was charged with spreading false information. In an act of psychological warfare, Dr Dee also informed Emperor Rudolf of Bohemia (the modern Czech Republic) and King Stephen of Poland that the predicted storm would “cause the fall of a mighty empire.” Rudolf, who was an occultist and Dee’s patron when he stayed in Bohemia, passed on the warning to the Spanish ambassador.


Francis Drake
It is a fact that in 1588 a great storm did scatter the ships of the Spanish Armada in the English Channel and aided the English victory. This metrological event was popularly credited to a magical ritual performed by the buccaneer Sir Francis Drake on the cliffs at Plymouth. Superstitious people believed Drake was a wizard and sold his soul to the Devil in exchange for success over the Spanish. It is claimed that he also organised several covens of witches to work magically to raise the storm and prevent the invasion. Meanwhile, as a result of scrying in his shewstone or crystal, Dr Dee saw a symbolic vision of a castle with its drawbridge drawn up (England) and the image of the elemental king of fire. As a result he urged the Navy to employ fire-ships against the Armada and they did so with good results.

After Sir Francis Walsingham’s death in 1590, and the ascension to the English throne of the Scottish king James, Dr John Dee fell into royal disfavour. The new king had an unhealthy obsession with witchcraft and his early reign was dominated by this preoccupation. It led him to employ the Secret Service in his own personal vendetta against suspected witches. James I ordered its agents to hunt down alleged practitioners of witchcraft and expose their alleged plots against the monarchy. One of those involved was the Earl of Bothwell, accused of high treason for organising a coven of Scottish witches to work magic against the king in an attempt to seize the throne. To assist his secret agents in their new witch-hunting activities, King James persuaded Parliament in 1604 to pass a new and stronger Witchcraft Act to deal with the problem. The Bill was rushed through and it was made law within three months.

http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=3683

@Pastor AIO
Come now, when we are talking history relatively unbiased sources are much preferable to those with an already stated bias. Your quoted source obviously revels in Occult phenomenon how can we take their words seriously in a historical discourse?

If the Spanish were so overwhelmingly superior why didn't they stay and fight? Why did they return to Spain? Why didn't the invasion continue as planned? All these questions are answered by the simple fact that the Spanish fleet could not overwhelm the English forces. The storm only sealed their fate. With no invading army onboard the voyage was in vain. And as I previously said the English did not need an Occult Event!

Lord_Reed: @Pastor AIO
Come now, when we are talking history relatively unbiased sources are much preferable to those with an already stated bias. Your quoted source obviously revels in Occult phenomenon how can we take their words seriously in a historical discourse?

If the Spanish were so overwhelmingly superior why didn't they stay and fight? Why did they return to Spain? Why didn't the invasion continue as planned? All these questions are answered by the simple fact that the Spanish fleet could not overwhelm the English forces. The storm only sealed their fate. With no invading army onboard the voyage was in vain.

There is no such thing as unbiased sources in history. questions that we should as is: where the courts of Europe steeped in the occult or not. If yes, then it would follow that the court magicians would have been expected to earn their keep. The role of court magicians and court astrologers have rather been written out of history.

I do not expect you to take their words seriously in a historical discourse until you follow up references and see if they corroborate what the site says. This is serious work that I'd only expect someone who was really really interested in the issue to undertake. (However by your thinking if anyone was that interested then they would no longer be an unbiased source?- am I right?)

You ask a lot of questions and then conclude like you already knew the answers to those questions. The answers include that the Armada was not superior to England's navy. Did you actually read the links that you suggested that I read. In order to dock the spanish had to compromise their crescent formation which exposed them to fire-ships.

I don't know what exactly your motivation is. Is it that you resent mention of the occult in european politics? Or is it that you disagree with how I presented the logistics of the battles? What in your opinion then were the deciding factors that determined the outcome of the planned invasion of England?

@Pastor AIO
I said relatively unbiased. Your source revels in the Occult so why won't he interpret the facts to suit him?

Yes the Spanish had superior fire power but the English had higher numbers and were more agile which is why I said "If the Spanish were so overwhelmingly superior..." because they were not.

Did you note that at the time the Spanish Armada approach the Channel the English were stuck in port due to incoming tide? Where was the so called Court Magician to aid them?

You show you have things turned around by saying that the Spanish docking compromised their tactical formation thereby allowing the English fireships penetration. Rather the fireships were used to destabilise the Spanish formation. The port was too shallow for the Spanish Galleons (the heavily armed Spanish powerhouses) to dock so of both necessity and practicality they were on guard. Even at that the fireships did no damage except to break up the Spanish formation.

All in all the crux of the matter is the storms came after the main battles and even if they didn't encounter the storms the Spanish were headed home.

What I disagree with is an interpretation of events to suit a whimsy. The facts do not support an Occultic Event being the cause for the English victory.

I believe that Lord Reed has responded to my last post but the post has been hidden. Could you please write another response? Thanks

I was banned temporaily (damned spambot!)

@Pastor AIO
I said relatively unbiased. Your source revels in the Occult so why won't he interpret the facts to suit him?

Yes the Spanish had superior fire power but the English had higher numbers and were more agile which is why I said "If the Spanish were so overwhelmingly superior..." because they were not.

Did you note that at the time the Spanish Armada approached the Channel the English were stuck in port due to incoming tide? Where was the so called Court Magician to aid them?

You show you have things turned around by saying that the Spanish docking compromised their tactical formation thereby allowing the English fireships penetration. Rather the fireships were used to destabilise the Spanish formation. The port was too shallow for the Spanish Galleons (the heavily armed Spanish powerhouses) to dock so of both necessity and practicality they were on guard. Even at that the fireships did no damage except to break up the Spanish formation.

All in all the crux of the matter is the storms came after the main battles and even if they didn't encounter the storms the Spanish were headed home.

What I disagree with is an interpretation of events to suit a whimsy. The facts do not support an Occultic Event being the cause for the English victory.

Hidden again. Were you using dirty language in the post? Or perhaps you were yabbing me, I hope not.

Talk to mods about this.

I really dont like the way very innocuous posts get hidden or deleted by this new NL.

LordReed, I've untagged your post. Next time don't repost it as it'll just ban you again, alert a mod to untag it instead. Due to a glitch yet to be fixed I can't unban you right now but the spambot ban will expire in just a little bit. Cheers.

Pastor AIO:

Could you give us any instance of such a war?

What was at the root of the India-Pakistan conflicts?