God exists.
. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly
good.
. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all
evils.
. An omniscient being knows every way in which
evils can come into existence.
. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in
which an evil can come into existence, has the
power to prevent that evil from coming into
existence.
. A being who knows every way in which an evil
can come into existence, who is able to prevent
that evil from coming into existence, and who
wants to do so, would prevent the existence of
that evil.
. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and
perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

So....is God dead

God is all powerful.
He can do all things
He can create a stone dat is so heavy he can't carry it
1.He can't carry it,
He can't do all things
God is not all powerful
2.He can't create it
He can't do all things

He can't do all things, he isn't God!!!

Master_1: God exists.
1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly
good.
2.A perfectly good being would want to prevent all
evils.
3.An omniscient being knows every way in which
evils can come into existence.
4.An omnipotent being, who knows every way in
which an evil can come into existence, has the
power to prevent that evil from coming into
existence.
5.A being who knows every way in which an evil
can come into existence, who is able to prevent
that evil from coming into existence, and who
wants to do so, would prevent the existence of
that evil.
6.If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and
perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
7.Evil exists (logical contradiction).

So....is God dead

I hope you are ready to defend "copy Pasted" material?

2 is not necessarily true.No Christian Philosopher ascribes to premise number 2.Unless you meant "A perfect being would want to prevent all unnecessary and gratuitous evil".which is quite different to your Premise 2.

Premise 4 assumes that omnipotence entails the ability to do the logically impossible.Premise 5 has problems inherited from Premise 2.Since no distinction was made between unnecessary gratuitous evil and EVIL in general, then 5 is a non starter.

Premise 6 and the conclusion suffer the same problems.

this must be the most amateurish form of the problem of evil i have ever seen.even if somehow the argument was sound,it does not follow that God does not exist. It could just be that an ammoral god exists.i.e a creator god who does not care about evil or good.A Deist sort of God.who simply created the universe and let it "be".

Master_1: God is all powerful.
He can do all things
He can create a stone dat is so heavy he can't carry it
1.He can't carry it,
He can't do all things
God is not all powerful
2.He can't create it
He can't do all things

He can't do all things, he isn't God!!!

I remember in my youthful days when i was a new "atheist".I found this argument fascinating.I would flaunt it around my Christian friends and leave them speechless.A few years later,more learned and widely read, i quickly realized how silly this argument was.

I know you are new to atheism and you find such amateurish arguments entertaining.but when you become older you will realize how silly they are.

But just to get you started, i will offer you some insights into what is wrong with your argument.

The argument presupposes that omnipotence is the ability to do anything.Even to defy logic.But majority of Christians do not hold that view.Omnipotence does not entail doing things which defy rules of logic.God cannot create a square circle for the simple reason that a square circle does not exist.Either a square is a square or a circle is a circle. This does not in anyway show that God lacks the ability to create a square circle.it shows that you have come up with some nonsensical concept and asked whether god can actualize it.


you could as well have asked, can god create "kjhkjhj79343877--.,==sdf" and make it drink milk?

If you want to start making arguments that make sense and are sound, you have to start by representing accurately what Christians believe in. Not by representing their position and going ahead and "disproving" something they do not believe or represent.It is called a strawman argument.look that up.

Well said, Alvinpat -

Honestly, new atheists are the most tiresome and boring sort of atheist that one can come across.

Following from the problem of evil arguement,
It must be understood 'God who in every sense of it, must av all those properties to be considered as 'God'.
An immoral God , which follows the argument hence is assuming that, an immoral God is NO GOD at all.


I just refuse to go without at least posting back a counter argument.

Since you two have decided to pick on d new guy, can u enlighten us with a solid arguement dat can not be countered.

Sorry, I'm not contributing anything of particular substance.

However @ Master 1, I suggest you google the words 'Alvin Platinga'.

Master_1: God exists.
. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly
good.
. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all
evils.
. An omniscient being knows every way in which
evils can come into existence.
. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in
which an evil can come into existence, has the
power to prevent that evil from coming into
existence.
. A being who knows every way in which an evil
can come into existence, who is able to prevent
that evil from coming into existence, and who
wants to do so, would prevent the existence of
that evil.
. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and
perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

So....is God dead

no but you are dead. spiritually dead, that is

Graffito somewhere or other:

"God is dead" - Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead" - God.

Enigma: Sorry, I'm not contributing anything of particular substance.

However @ Master 1, I suggest you google the words 'Alvin Platinga'.

I googled d name nd my oh my!!!!

Cool

We all have sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much to learn.

If only we all realise this . . . .

buzugee: no but you are dead. spiritually dead, that is

This is a forum. Either support the argument or oppose it. Or otherwise at least make meaningful contributions!!!!

@Enigma,
Who will teach us all that we need to know
GOD

Yep, but we must first humble ourselves.

To be honest, "all" that we really need to know to relate with God are very simple.

The "intellectual" stuff are additions really; they can be very good if we handle them carefully; but they can be stumbling blocks if we handle them wrongly -------or if we fail to do the first thing i.e. to humble ourselves.

Master_1:

This is a forum. Either support the argument or oppose it. Or otherwise at least make meaningful contributions!!!!

i am sitting on the fence on this here issue. trying to upload sense into the hard drive of an atheist is akin to trying to pass a thread through the eye of a needle

No. God is a alive. He is not dead. We may not see him but everything around us is a living testimony that there is a supreme being that contols the affairs of men. I don't know how else to convince you, i sincerely pray that God will reveal himself to you in a way you can understand.God bless you. God2man.

so this poster really wants to convince his/herself that God is dead. Would the poster be willing to receive a visit from God before he/she wakes up to reason. To assert that God is dead is simply to assert that one is in fact spiritually dead. Ride on... kudos 2 u... lets see where your vain arguments leads you.

I am almost there, I just neeeed someone to sufficiently convince me, and dat will be all!!!!


Some religious people are just plain 'daft'!

Master_1: God is all powerful.
He can do all things
He can create a stone dat is so heavy he can't carry it
1.He can't carry it,
He can't do all things
God is not all powerful
2.He can't create it
He can't do all things

He can't do all things, he isn't God!!!

Just because a being is supposedly capable of doing all things does that mean that being will necessarily do all things?

looks in...
silly argument ...
steps out...

What å world of insanity I have found myself!

He is on life support. . . being nursed by the DEVIL!

mu he he he he he he he

No need to vote for a "vegetable"!


The DEVIL will soon pull the plug on his arrrrze!


GAME OVA!!!

IF YOU BELIEVE YOUR GOD IS A MAN, HE PROBABLY DIED OF CANCER IN TODAYS WORLD. BUT IF YOU KNOW GOD/ALLAH/CHINEKE/IS ONE WITH THE UNIVERSE, NEVER ENDING AND NEVER BEGINNING , YOU'VE GOT NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT,


LET YOUR CONSCIOUS BE FREE.

AlvinPlantinga:

I hope you are ready to defend "copy Pasted" material?

Let me see if I can defend this material.

AlvinPlantinga:
2 is not necessarily true.No Christian Philosopher ascribes to premise number 2.Unless you meant "A perfect being would want to prevent all unnecessary and gratuitous evil".which is quite different to your Premise 2.

This implies that there is necessary evil that God cannot prevent yet he created heaven which is supposed to be without evil. How is this possible? The fact that a Christian philosopher doesn't ascribe to the premise doesn't mean it is false.

AlvinPlantinga:
Premise 4 assumes that omnipotence entails the ability to do the logically impossible.

A square circle would be a logical impossibility, but there is nothing logically impossible in a being who knows how evil can occur and can prevent it. Though you could point out the logical impossibility.

AlvinPlantinga:
Premise 5 has problems inherited from Premise 2.Since no distinction was made between unnecessary gratuitous evil and EVIL in general, then 5 is a non starter.

I hope you realize that the Christian God does command unnecessary gratuitous evil so even if one introduced that distinction, it does nothing for the Christian God.

AlvinPlantinga:
Premise 6 and the conclusion suffer the same problems.

They've been addressed.

AlvinPlantinga:
this must be the most amateurish form of the problem of evil i have ever seen.even if somehow the argument was sound,it does not follow that God does not exist. It could just be that an ammoral god exists.i.e a creator god who does not care about evil or good.A Deist sort of God.who simply created the universe and let it "be".

But, if one was a Christian who believed in only one God, it does follow that God does not exist. Note that the problem of evil is used against a particular idea of God i.e a beneficent, omnipotent God not against the general idea of God. If you wish to claim that your God is omnipotent, benficent etc, then the problem of evil stands against it.

This is why in general, the God under discussion is identified and here is taken as being the Christian God.

thehomer:

Let me see if I can defend this material.



This implies that there is necessary evil that God cannot prevent yet he created heaven which is supposed to be without evil. How is this possible?

where is the impossibility?God does not have to deal with Free Willed beings in heaven.

The fact that a Christian philosopher doesn't ascribe to the premise doesn't mean it is false.

It doesn't.And this not what i said.

A square circle would be a logical impossibility, but there is nothing logically impossible in a being who knows how evil can occur and can prevent it. Though you could point out the logical impossibility.

You are right.the contention is the near impossibility of God actualizing a possible world with free willed beings who do not commit acts of evil.(read Plantinga's free will defense and Possible and feasible world terminology.You might also be interested in reading on the topic of Transworld depravity)

I hope you realize that the Christian God does command unnecessary gratuitous evil

No i don't realise that.

so even if one introduced that distinction, it does nothing for the Christian God.

So you say.

They've been addressed.



But, if one was a Christian who believed in only one God, it does follow that God does not exist. Note that the problem of evil is used against a particular idea of God i.e a beneficent, omnipotent God not against the general idea of God. If you wish to claim that your God is omnipotent, benficent etc, then the problem of evil stands against it.

This is why in general, the God under discussion is identified and here is taken as being the Christian God.

Ok.

AlvinPlantinga:

where is the impossibility?God does not have to deal with Free Willed beings in heaven.

So there is no free will in heaven? I think many Christian philosophers and the Bible disagree with you. e.g do angels have free-will? Keep in mind the fact that some of them were kicked out of heaven.

AlvinPlantinga:
It doesn't.And this not what i said.

You said Christian philosophers don't agree with that premise. My point is that their agreement is irrelevant to whether or not it is true.

AlvinPlantinga:
You are right.the contention is the near impossibility of God actualizing a possible world with free willed beings who do not commit acts of evil.(read Plantinga's free will defense and Possible and feasible world terminology.You might also be interested in reading on the topic of Transworld depravity)

What will reading those works show? If you think they solve the problem, then by all means, use the best one in your argument.

AlvinPlantinga:
No i don't realise that.

Well now you know. He commanded such atrocities in the Bible. You could take a look at Numbers 31.

AlvinPlantinga:
So you say.

If you disagree, then you need to present some argument supporting your case.

AlvinPlantinga:
Ok.

By okay, I take it that you mean the Christian God is the one under discussion.

Master_1: God exists.
. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly
good.
. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all
evils.
. An omniscient being knows every way in which
evils can come into existence.
. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in
which an evil can come into existence, has the
power to prevent that evil from coming into
existence.
. A being who knows every way in which an evil
can come into existence, who is able to prevent
that evil from coming into existence, and who
wants to do so, would prevent the existence of
that evil.
. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and
perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

So....is God dead

It would also follow that the creation is the reflection of God's self. By God being perfectly good, where cometh evil?

*note that this refers to the Christian/islamic Gods*

Who supports the argument of intelligent design??

.

God is a spirit. He is all-powerful, knows all and is everywhere. He transcends space and time and He is all-good, He defines goodness. He is just and He is merciful and full of love. He created everything and beyond Him there is nothing.
This is my God. My bible tells me so.

cyrexx: @ Master_1
i support the argument of intelligent design, while i dont support the idea of Islamic or Christian God who condemns people to burn alive for eternity in hell fire for not believing in Christ as the only Lord and Savior (Christianity) or for not believing Muhammed is God's messenger (Islam)
I believe there must be a Higher Power somewhere who created this big complex massive gigantic world. or can you design and deploy something bigger and better than this world by yourself?

And from what did he create and design this gigantic super complex world?? From Nothing or Hinself??