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God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate - Religion - Nairaland

Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate (3083 Views)

The Bible Is Just A Fairy Tale / Anita Oyakhilome Opens Up After Divorce Tale / Jesus Christ Life: A Fiction Or Fairy Tale? (2) (3) (4)

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God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 4:03am On Nov 10, 2011
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 1:05pm On Nov 10, 2011
(Hamza Tzortzis vs Dan Barker) Debate: "Is Atheism or Islam more rational?"

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Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by chrisj2000(m): 2:51pm On Nov 10, 2011
time2let go
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 9:32pm On Nov 10, 2011
chrisj2000:

It's an insult to atheism to compare It with Islam.

I agree atheism has no logical basis, Watch the debates and then bring up your points
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 7:08am On Nov 11, 2011
Islam or Atheism - Which is More Rational? Hamza Andreas Tzortzis & Dr. Brendan Larvor

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Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 12:39pm On Nov 11, 2011
Debate- Islam or Atheism- Hamza Andreas Tzortzis vs Ed Buckner, President of American Atheists
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Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 12:46pm On Nov 12, 2011
Can We Live Better Lives Without Religion? Hamza Tzortzis vs Dr. Peter Cave
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Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 5:23am On Nov 14, 2011
Debate: Islam or Secular Liberalism? Hamza Tzortzis vs. Dr Haydar Bashar
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Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by Kay17: 6:52am On Nov 14, 2011
The only problem i ve with the rationality of Islam is that; its considered unquestionable
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 7:39am On Nov 14, 2011
Kay 17:

The only problem i ve with the rationality of Islam is that; its considered unquestionable

How do you mean?
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by Kay17: 7:55am On Nov 14, 2011
In that one is not allowed to question the central tenets of islam, like viet existence of God, validity of Islamic morals, the character of the prophet,
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 8:06am On Nov 14, 2011
Kay 17:

In that one is not allowed to question the central tenets of islam, like viet existence of God, validity of Islamic morals, the character of the prophet,

Ofcourse you can, as long as you can structure your ideas in a way that you do not insult the sensitivities of people, That is why i posted these debates to show how constructive dialogue can be held without throwing insults at islam or the prophet. If you have questions about islam, pls visit this thread https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-802617.0.html
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by Kay17: 8:21am On Nov 14, 2011
But my conclusions must align with Islamic doctrine!
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 8:23am On Nov 14, 2011
Kay 17:

But my conclusions must align with Islamic doctrine!

We can always agree to disagree,
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by Kay17: 8:44am On Nov 14, 2011
What happens to a muslims who feels islam is false and deconverts?
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 9:06am On Nov 14, 2011
Kay 17:

What happens to a muslims who feels islam is false and deconverts?

This is what the Quran states:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error:whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy
hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." (Q 2: 256)

So in islam, there is no compulsion in religion. If he wants to convert, he is free,

Now there are certain conditions under an Islamic government where if someone converts and fights against the state, it is considered an act of treason. Most countries have the death penalty for treason.
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by vedaxcool(m): 10:33am On Nov 14, 2011
chrisj2000:

It's an insult to atheism to compare It with Islam.

wow thaba you really did a number on him, nice thread! smiley
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by Kay17: 1:40pm On Nov 14, 2011
Yes, its stories are fairly fantastic and too extraordinary
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by Kay17: 1:40pm On Nov 14, 2011
Yes, its stories are fairly fantastic and too extraordinary
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 8:31am On Nov 15, 2011
Kay 17:

Yes, its stories are fairly fantastic and too extraordinary

We live in an fairly fantastic and extraordinary Universe. Think about it,

Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the
profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all
kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- [Here]
indeed are Signs for a people that are wise. (Surah 2 164.)
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by Kay17: 10:10am On Nov 15, 2011
First of all, the entire doctrines of Islam was revealed to the Prophet. The merits of the existence of One God and his infinite qualities all rest on muhammed's word.

The message of Allah is obviously not objective and obvious since its not common in time and place. However for one to be a muslim, one must believe the words of Muhammed.

Muhammed was a man, like every other man capable of lying, of being insane, of being immoral. *i'm not saying he is o!*

with the doubtful and dubious nature of a man, reasonable people are not expected to believe in claims of violation of natural laws. A man's testimony is acceptable only if its reasonable. If Muhammed is to prove the claims of the koran, and he tells u angels told him to write it. Is that at all proof? NO such a claim is EXTRAordinary. A reasonable man is not expected to believe a mango tree would bear yams or a dog sprouting wings and flying off.

Muhammed's testimony is relevant only to himself not to us.
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 10:33am On Nov 15, 2011
Kay 17:

First of all, the entire doctrines of Islam was revealed to the Prophet. The merits of the existence of One God and his infinite qualities all rest on muhammed's word.

The message of Allah is obviously not objective and obvious since its not common in time and place. However for one to be a muslim, one must believe the words of Muhammed.

Muhammed was a man, like every other man capable of lying, of being insane, of being immoral. *i'm not saying he is o!*

with the doubtful and dubious nature of a man, reasonable people are not expected to believe in claims of violation of natural laws. A man's testimony is acceptable only if its reasonable. If Muhammed is to prove the claims of the koran, and he tells u angels told him to write it. Is that at all proof? NO such a claim is EXTRAordinary. A reasonable man is not expected to believe a mango tree would bear yams or a dog sprouting wings and flying off.

Muhammed's testimony is relevant only to himself not to us.


What if prove to you, by rational deduction that the Quran could not have come from Muhammed or any man. And that it has to be from the divine. It is important first of all to note that the prophet was an unlettered person; meaning he had no formal education. I will use 3 approaches>

1. The literary uniquenes of the Quran
2. It's account of past events.
3. The scientific evidence in the Quran.

1.
The Quran states:

Surah 2
23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Chapter like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers [If there are any] besides Allah, if your [doubts] are true.


This is a challenge made to the Arabs to come up with a chapter that compares to the Quran in its style: The shortest chapter is 3 sentences.

Rational Deduction

Rational deduction is the thinking process where logical conclusions are drawn from a universally accepted statement or provable premises. This process is also called rational inference or logical deduction.
In the context of the Qur’an’s uniqueness the universally accepted statement supported by eastern and western scholarship is:

“The Qur’an was not successfully imitated by the Arabs at the time of revelation”

From this statement the following logical conclusions can be drawn:

1. The Qur’an could not have come from an Arab as the Arabs, at the time of revelation, were linguists par excellence and they failed to challenge the Qur’an. They had even admitted that the Qur’an could have not come from a human being.

2. The Qur’an could not have come from a Non-Arab as the language in the Qur’an is Arabic, and the knowledge of the Arabic language is a pre-requisite to successfully challenge the Qur’an.

3. The Qur’an could not have come from the Prophet Muhammad due to the following reasons:

a. The Prophet Muhammad was an Arab himself and all the Arabs failed to challenge the Qur’an.

b. The Arabs linguists at the time of revelation never accused the Prophet of being the author of the Qur’an.

c. The Prophet Muhammad experienced many trials and tribulations during the course of his Prophetic mission. For example his children died, his beloved wife Khadija passed away, he was boycotted, his close companions were tortured and killed, yet the Qur’an’s literary character remains that of the divine voice and character. Nothing in the Qur’an expresses the turmoil and emotions of the Prophet Muhammad. It is almost a psychological and physiological impossibility to go through what the Prophet went through and yet none of the emotions are expressed in the literary character of the Qur’an.

d. The Qur’an is a known literary masterpiece yet its verse were at many times revealed for specific circumstances and events that occurred. However, without revision or deletion they are literary masterpieces. All literary masterpieces have undergone revision and deletion to ensure literary perfection, however the Qur’an was revealed instantaneously.

e. The hadith or narrations of the Prophet Muhammad are in a totally different style then that of the Qur’an. How can any human being express themselves orally over a 23 year period (which was the period of Qur’anic revelation) in two distinct styles? This is a psychological and physiological impossibility according to modern research.

f. All types of human expression can be imitated if the blueprint of that expression exists. For example artwork can be imitated even though some art is thought to be extraordinary or amazingly unique. But in the case of the Qur’an we have the blueprint – the Qur’an itself – yet no one has been able to imitate its unique literary form.

4. The Qur’an could not have come from another being such as a Jinn or Spirit because the basis of their existence is the Qur’an and revelation itself. Their existence is based upon revelation and not empirical evidence. Therefore if someone claims that the source of the Qur’an to be another being then they would have to prove its existence and in this case proving revelation. In the case of using the Qur’an as the revelation to establish Jinns existence then that would mean the whole rational deduction exercise would not be required in the first place, as the Qur’an would already have been established as a divine text, because to believe in Jinns existence would mean belief in the Qur’an in the first place.

5. The Qur’an can only have come from the Divine as it is the only logical explanation as all other explanations have been discarded because they do not explain the uniqueness of the Qur’an in a comprehensive and coherent manner.

The Miracle
What makes the Qur’an a miracle, is that it lies outside the productive capacity of the nature of the Arabic language. The productive capacity of nature, concerning the Arabic language, is that any grammatically sound expression of the Arabic language will always fall within the known Arabic literary forms of Prose and Poetry.

[b]The Qur’an is a miracle as its literary form cannot be explained via the productive capacity of the Arabic language, because all the possible combinations of Arabic words, letters and grammatical rules have been exhausted and yet the Qur’an’s literary form has not been imitated. [/b]The Arabs who were known to have been Arab linguists par excellence failed to successfully challenge the Qur’an. Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot who was a notable British Orientalist and translator states:

“…and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.”

The implication of this is that there is no link between the Qur’an and the Arabic language; however this seems impossible because the Qur’an is made up of the Arabic language! On the other hand, all the combinations of Arabic words and letters have been used to try and imitate the Qur’an. Therefore, it can only be concluded that a supernatural explanation is the only coherent explanation for this impossible Arabic literary form – the Qur’an.

When we look at the productive nature of the Arabic language to find an answer for the unique literary form of the Qur’an, we find no link between it and the divine text, thus making it an impossibility requiring supernatural explanation. So it logically follows that if the Qur’an is a literary event that lies outside the productive capacity of the Arabic language, then, by definition, it is a miracle.
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 10:54am On Nov 15, 2011
2. Historical accuracy

Titles of Egyptian Rulers in the Quran

Moses was not the only prophet who lived in the lands of Egypt in the history of ancient Egypt. The Prophet Joseph had lived in Egypt long before the time of Moses.
We encounter a certain constrast while reading about the stories of Moses and Joseph. While addressing the Egyptian ruler at the time of Joseph, the work "malik" (the King) is used in the Qur'an:

”The King (malik) said, 'Bring him (Joseph) to me straight away! so I may draw him very close to me.' When he had spoken with him, he declared, 'Today you are trusted, established in our sight.'„(The Qur'an, 12:54)

In contrast, the ruler at Moses' time is referred to as the "Pharaoh":

”We gave Moses nine Clear Signs. Ask the tribe of Israel about when he came to them and Pharaoh said to him, 'Moses, I think you are bewitched.'„
(The Qur'an, 17:101)

Historical records available today show us the reason for the different nomenclature of these rulers. The word "pharaoh" was originally the name given to the royal palace in ancient Egypt. The rulers of the old dynasty did not use the title. The use of the word pharaoh as the title of the ruler did not start until the "New Kingdom" era of Egyptian history. This period started with the 18th dynasty (1539-1292 BC), and by the 20th dynasty (945-730 BC) the word "pharaoh" was adopted as title of respect.

Therefore the miraculous nature of the Qur'an is manifested here once again: Joseph lived at the time of the Old Kingdom, and hence the word "malik"(king) was used for the Egyptian ruler rather than "pharaoh". On the contrary, since Moses lived at the time of the New Kingdom, the ruler of Egypt is addressed as "pharaoh".

There is no doubt that one has to have a knowledge of the history of Egypt in order to make such a distinction. However, the history of Ancient Egypt was completely forgotten by the 4th century, as hieroglyphics could no longer be understood, and was not rediscovered (rosseta stone) until the 19th century. Therefore, there was no in-depth knowledge of Egyptian history available when the Qur'an was revealed. This fact is yet another one of countless pieces of evidence proving that the Qur'an is the word of God.
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 11:04am On Nov 15, 2011
3. Scientific Evidence.

The Quran on Mountains:

A book entitled Earth is a basic reference textbook in many universities around the world.  One of its two authors is Professor Emeritus Frank Press.  He was the Science Advisor to former US President Jimmy Carter, and for 12 years was the President of the National Academy of Sciences, Washington, DC.

His book says that mountains have underlying roots.  These roots are deeply embedded in the ground, thus, mountains have a shape like a peg. (Earth, Press and Siever, p. 435.  Also see Earth Science, Tarbuck and Lutgens, p. 157.)

[img]http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-b-img3-big.htm[/img]

This is how the Quran has described mountains.  God has said in the Quran:

Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs?  (Quran, 78:6-7)

Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground (see figure 9) and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground.  So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word ‘peg,’ since most of a properly set peg is hidden under the surface of the ground.  The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains having deep roots was introduced only in the latter half of the nineteenth century.

Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth.  They hinder the shaking of the earth.  God has said in the Quran:

And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you,  (Quran, 16:15)

Likewise, the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth.  This knowledge about the role of mountains as stabilizers for the earth has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960’s.5

Could anyone during the time of the Prophet Muhammad  have known of the true shape of mountains?  Could anyone imagine that the solid massive mountain which he sees before him actually extends deep into the earth and has a root, as scientists assert?  A large number of books of geology, when discussing mountains, only describe that part which is above the surface of the earth.  This is because these books were not written by specialists in geology.  However, modern geology has confirmed the truth of the Quranic verses.
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by Kay17: 11:09am On Nov 15, 2011
If Muhammed was writing Greek or Yoruba, i would have be surprised. But Arabic is a human language and understood by humans. Excellent literary works are always unique so dont sweat.
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 11:15am On Nov 15, 2011
Kay 17:

If Muhammed was writing Greek or Yoruba, i would have be surprised. But Arabic is a human language and understood by humans. Excellent literary works are always unique so dont sweat.

William Shakespeare for instance, who was an English poet and playwright, widely regarded as the greatest writer in the English language, is often used as an example of unique literature. The argument posed is that if Shakespeare expressed his poetry and prose in a unique manner – and he is a human being – then surely no matter how unique the Qur’an is, it must also be from a human being.

However there are some problems with the above argument. It does not take into account the nature of the Qur’an’s uniqueness and it doesn’t understand the uniqueness of literary geniuses such as Shakespeare. Although Shakespeare composed poetry and prose that received an unparalleled aesthetic reception, the literary form he expressed his works in was not unique. In many instances Shakespeare used the common Iambic Pentameter (The Iambic pentameter is a meter in poetry. It refers to a line consisting of five iambic feet. The word “pentameter” simply means that there are five feet in the line.) However in the case of the Qur’an, its language is in an entirely unknown and unmatched literary form. The structural features of the Qur’anic discourse render it unique and not the subjective appreciation of its literary and linguistic makeup.

For a detailed understanding check on the Quran literary form: www.theinimitablequran.com/
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 11:20am On Nov 15, 2011
There are many imitations of the style of Shakespeare. In over 1400 years, there has not been one successful attempt to imitate the style of the Quran. And remember, It is in a language with finite letters. If that is not a Miracle, I dont know what is,
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 11:23am On Nov 15, 2011
Remember, this was an unlearned man, Imagine a uneducated kid on the street of Lagos spewing poetry of the class of a wole soyinka.
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by Kay17: 6:56pm On Nov 15, 2011
That is what you wants to believe via hearsay. If he never wrote the koran himself, scribes must have done.

Umar burnt some korans why?
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 7:56pm On Nov 15, 2011
Kay 17:

That is what you wants to believe via hearsay. If he never wrote the koran himself, scribes must have done.

Umar burnt some korans why?


Via hearsay? This is the opinion of eastern scholars and western scholars.  Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot who was a notable British Orientalist and translator states:

“…and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.” (F. F. Arbuthnot. 1885. The Construction of the Bible and the Koran. London, p 5)

The Quran states that the prophet is unlettered so that is not hearsay because if it was people would have used that point to dispute his prophethood:

"Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own [scriptures],- in the law and the Gospel;- for he
commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good [and pure] and prohibits them from what is bad [and impure];"

Now you have to understand that the Quran was memorized fully by the companions of the prophet as it is today by millions of Muslims:

Uthman(RA) standardized the copies of the Quran in the Quresh dialect (the prophet's dialect) of the Arabic Language and destroyed other copies existing in other dialects. No change was made to the meaning of the Quran. Remember it was wholly memorized by hundreds of companions. This was done to avoid changes coming into the text.

Scholarship work by all western scholar assert that the Quran has remained unchanged:

Introduction to the Qur'an, W. Montgomery Watt (Author), Richard Bell Page 3: They assert the job done by the companions preserved the Quran and that the Quran is exactly as it was revealed to the prophet.

These are both christians:

A.T. Welch, a non-Muslim orientalist, writes:

“For Muslims the Quran is much more than scripture or sacred literature in the usual Western sense. Its primary significance for the vast majority through the centuries has been in its oral form, the form in which it first appeared, as the “recitation” chanted by Muhammad to his followers over a period of about twenty years… The revelations were memorized by some of Muhammad’s followers during his lifetime, and the oral tradition that was thus established has had a continuous history ever since, in some ways independent of, and superior to, the written Quran… Through the centuries the oral tradition of the entire Quran has been maintained by the professional reciters (qurraa). Until recently, the significance of the recited Quran has seldom been fully appreciated in the West.” (The Encyclopedia of Islam, ‘The Quran in Muslim Life and Thought.’)

Leading orientalist Kenneth Cragg reflects that:


“…this phenomenon of Quranic recital means that the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken living sequence of devotion. It cannot, therefore, be handled as an antiquarian thing, nor as a historical document out of a distant past. The fact of hifdh (Quranic memorization) has made the Quran a present possession through all the lapse of Muslim time and given it a human currency in every generation, never allowing its relegation to a bare authority for reference alone.”(Kenneth Cragg, The Mind of the Quran, London: George Allen & Unwin, 1973, p.26.)

John Burton, at the end of his substantial work on the Quran’s compilation, states that the Quran as we have it today is:

“…the text which has come down to us in the form in which it was organized and approved by the Prophet…. What we have today in our hands is the mushaf of Muhammad. (John Burton, The Collection of the Quran, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1977, p.239-40.)

The evidence above confirms God’s promise in the Quran:

“Verily, We have revealed the Reminder, and verily We shall preserve it.” (Quran 15:9)


The Quran has been preserved in both oral and written form in a way no other book has, and with each form providing a check and balance for the authenticity of the other.
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by Nobody: 8:05pm On Nov 15, 2011
The Quran has been preserved in both oral and written form in a way no other book has, and with each form providing a check and balance for the authenticity of the other.

Not true.

The Quran is corrupted.


Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Thus seven centuries after the crucifixion of the Messiah Muhammad filled his followers with complete resolve as to what to DISbelieve. A religion with a fundamental of what to DENY. Muhammad's followers must reject the very blood that would save them as an article of their faith in Muhammad - as adherents of the only anti-another-religion, religion. Islam is to Christianity as the negative is to a photograph. Yet when we ask Muhammad's followers who did die on the cross we find ", those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow,

Ironically in that same 7th century, when Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the Gospel of Jesus Christ within the muddled, heavily abrogated, 23 year record of his recitations, contradicted himself by recommending that Christians judge by what is revealed in the Gospel!

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

There has only ever been one Gospel, whether in the  first century, the 7th century or today, and the subject of the Gospel has remained unchanged.

In order to deny the main subject of the Gospel as bequeathed to us through all of the witnesses of Jesus Christ - that were willing to be tortured and die martyrs deaths for proclaiming Christ crucified and the resurrection - Muhammad's followers are stuck having to make the preposterous claim that the 1st century Gospel had somehow been changed or "corrupted" to such an extent, that it's WHOLE SUBJECT had become the EXACT OPPOSITE, of Muhammad's 7th century denial.

In other words the Gospel would have had to have been rewritten in it's entirety, yet uniformly so throughout the whole known world, with all of the prior copies having vanished into thin air! But since we have over 5300 partial or complete manuscripts of the Gospel that were penned prior to 300 AD, to change it's whole subject would have required collaboration between scribes from Syria, Babylonia, Galatia, Asia, India, Rome, Egypt, Greece, Carthage, Tarshish and Macedonia, to name just a few!

So in light of the exact opposite nature of Muhammad's record to the Gospel, it should come as no surprise that the behavior of Muhammad and his follower's, was the exact opposite of the sinless Messiah and His Apostles.

From the Bukhari Hadith that Muslims respect more than any other we learn that, after Muhammad marched into the peaceful, productive, non-combatant Jewish farming village of the Banu Quraysa, ,

Bukhari:V5B59N448 They then surrendered to the Prophet's judgment but he directed them to Sa'd to give the verdict. Sad said, "I give my judgment that their men should be killed, their women and children should be taken as captives, and their properties distributed."

Thus all of the Jewish farm boys who had reached the age of puberty, along with their brothers, dads and grandpas were brought before Muhammad and beheaded - about eight hundred in all. But things went even worse for their sisters, mothers, wives and daughters.

Bukhari:V5B59N459 I entered the Mosque, saw Abu, sat beside him and asked about sex. Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle and we received female slaves from among the captives. We desired women and we loved to do Reproduction interruptus."

As you attempt to visualize that scene, please bear in mind that Muhammad himself, Were Intimate with a nine year old child. Yet in spite of how Muhammad's own behavior is exhaustively revealed through Islam's own books, YouTube continues to be full of Islamic buffoonery and lies regarding the Gospel, as if blaspheming the very book that Islam pretends to associate with, somehow defends Muhammad.

Lies regarding the Gospel like those of the famous Greek sophist styled Ahmed Deedat, and his self-described disciple Naik, eagerly parroted by their bible-ignorant adoring minions, like so many Chatty Kathy dolls that have the capability of pulling their own strings. Their followers seemingly believing that simply because somebody is willing to say something means that it will somehow magically become truth.

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Yet even their own self-proclaimed prophet Muhammad, knew in his day, that he had made such a mess of his recitations that he had to institute a doctrine of abrogation.

Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

If Muhammad had been literate he might have known that abrogation IS substitution. A whopping 71 out of only 114 suras are subject to abrogation. But it gets worse.

The Yemeni government hired Gerd Puin, one of the world's leading authorities on Qur'anic historical orthography, or the study and scholarly interpretation of ancient manuscripts, to study the oldest manuscript of the Quran. Puin is also a specialist in Arabic paleography. Quoting the Wikipedia article, he found as indicated in this photo,

"Some of the papyrus on which the text appears shows clear signs of earlier use, being that previous, washed-off writings are also visible on it. In 2008 and 2009 Dr Elisabeth Puin published detailed results of the analysis of Sanaa manuscript DAM (dar al-makhtutat) 01.27-1 proving that the text was still in flux in the time span between the scriptio inferior and the scriptio superior of the palimpsest, "

Gerd Puin further concluded: "The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on."


http://brotherpete.com/id81.htm
Re: God - Fairy Tale Or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule Vs Hamza Tzortzis - Full Debate by tbaba1234: 8:20pm On Nov 15, 2011
I will only respond to scholarly work::

frosbel:

The Yemeni government hired Gerd Puin, one of the world's leading authorities on Qur'anic historical orthography, or the study and scholarly interpretation of ancient manuscripts, to study the oldest manuscript of the Quran. Puin is also a specialist in Arabic paleography. Quoting the Wikipedia article, he found as indicated in this photo,

"Some of the papyrus on which the text appears shows clear signs of earlier use, being that previous, washed-off writings are also visible on it. In 2008 and 2009 Dr Elisabeth Puin published detailed results of the analysis of Sanaa manuscript DAM (dar al-makhtutat) 01.27-1 proving that the text was still in flux in the time span between the scriptio inferior and the scriptio superior of the palimpsest, "

Gerd Puin further concluded: "The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on."
http://brotherpete.com/id81.htm

As regard to the Sana'a Mss, there is nothing "shocking" about its discovery. At most, it is claimed that there is a fragment where the end of sura 26 is followed by 37. But this amounts to nothing, since it is permissable to place suras in any order in a partial mushaf. So this is hardly "news" or a "shocking" discovery.


Moreover, after the publication of the Atlantic Monthly,  Puin wrote a letter in which he revealed:


"The important thing, thank God, is that these Yemeni Qur'anic fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur'an itself, but are rather differences in the way words are spelled. This phenomenon is well-known, even in the Qur'an published in Cairo in which is written:

Ibrhim next to Ibrhm
Quran next to Qrn
Simahum next to Simhum
( Puin's letter and Prof. Azami's comments cited from: M. M. Azami, The History of the Qur'anic Text from Revelation to Compilation: A Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments, UK Islamic Academy, 2003 pp. 12)

In the oldest Yemeni Qur'anic fragments, for example, the phenomenon of not writing the vowel alif is rather common."


Prof. Azami comments:

"This deflates the entire controversy, dusting away the webs of intrigue that were spun around Puin's discoveries and making them a topic unworthy of further speculation."


Question
Why would manuscripts have to be washed off or erased? What was wrong with them if the parchments were fit to be washed and then have the Quranic text rewritten upon them?

Answer

This was a common practice in ancient times. When enough of a manuscript's writing wore off (ink does not bond to parchment like it does to paper), all of the writing was washed off to make the expensive parchment usable for a new text. This was an ancient way of recycling. The washing, fortunately for us, was not complete: that's how earlier texts can be seen using ultraviolet light underneath newer texts. I believe a Christian manuscript (at St. Catherine's monastery in the Sinai?) was examined a few years ago under ultraviolet light to reveal an earlier, lost Greek work.

Now avail yourself of the opportunity by reading the scholarly references i have provided; before making emotional arguments

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