Kobojunkie:
1. According to Jesus Christ, all those who are born-again and are of the Kingdom of God, as a result, become like the angels - Luke 20 vs 36 & Matthew 22 vs 29 - 30 & Mark 12 vs 25. So, yes, those who are born-again are like the angels.

2. What has angels being real or not to do with what this man basically dreamed of? :-

Are Angels real?

Didn't you counter the fact that I said :
realities beyond the physical?

Your self appeal to counter ANYTHING spoken is not a good trait. It makes you a difficult person to be with.

TenQ:
■ Jesus used a REAL child as an Example, didn't he? Mt 18:4 The greatest person in God’s kingdom is the one who makes himself humble like this child.
■ Do you believe that Daniel died and returned to dust or not? On Joseph, you are confusing yourself: Does the word Dust according to God mean literal earth or not? When a person dies, his body decay and become indistinguishable from the earth.
■ Even righteous men of old acknowledged that they will return to dust Job 10:9: "Remember, I beseech you, that you have made me as the clay; and will you bring me into dust again?"
■ Ps 103:14: "For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust." Eccl 12:7: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it."

1. Are you insinuating that Jesus Christ somehow meant we are to become like that particular child or what?


2. Your confusion here is not mine at all!

God cursed Adam, proclaiming, "From dust, you were made and to dust you will return" meaning that Adam's entirety was returned back to the dust from which his entire essence was made. As for the righteous, since God's breath of Life,— never leaves them even after death — the Spirit of God's Eternal life holds on to their essence even after death, Jesus Christ described them as sleeping in the grave and not dust. He said this of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Abraham's physical form is probably of dust at this point in time but Jesus Christ said Abraham continues to live. The same applies as far as Daniel and Joseph and every other righteous man who ever lived. Either you believe Jesus Christ or you don't. Can't help you there.

3. There is no evidence through all of Job's laments that he was aware that God had approved him righteous at that point in time. What we know from Job's lament is that he was aware that God could snuff his life out in a twinkle and he yearned for it so he could be released from his sufferings.

4. Yes, we are dust. However, for those who are born-again in Jesus Christ, we are no longer dust but eternal beings. That is one of the major rewards of Jesus Christ — eternity beginning in this life, and not after this life. Those of old Covenant remained dust until after death when they were gifted with eternal life as their reward for a life lived in holiness and righteousness - Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 30.

Warning: Stop using find and filter to learn what is written. Never ignore the context of the content you pick from scripture as the message intended by the author is easily lost to you that way.

TenQ:

Can you explain OBEs away especially where the subject report events or occurrences he cannot possibly be privy to?

Except you can conclusively say that his report is a fabrication, you have to take it seriously

Why though? You are just repeating that he had an experience so I must take it seriously. Why should I take his experience more seriously than any other experience especially mine. What is special about his experience?

TenQ:
■ Are Angels real?
■ Didn't you counter the fact that I said : realities beyond the physical? Your self appeal to counter ANYTHING spoken is not a good trait. It makes you a difficult person to be with.

1. Angels are real. I gave you several Scriptures from Jesus Christ Himself explaining some of who they are. What this man had is to be likened to a dream about ideas of angels though. So?

2. What realities beyond the physical are you referring to here? This man's dream? What exactly is there to counter?

LordReed:


Why though? You are just repeating that he had an experience so I must take it seriously. Why should I take his experience more seriously then any other experience especially mine. What is special about his experience?

I am saying that only if you can explain away ALL OBEs can you dismiss his testimony as frivolous.

Do you have any reason to dismiss ALL OBEs as pure fantasy or fabrication?

TenQ:

I am saying that only if you can explain away ALL OBEs can you dismiss his testimony as frivolous.

Do you have any reason to dismiss ALL OBEs as pure fantasy or fabrication?

Why are OBEs special?

Kobojunkie:
1. Angels are real. I gave you several Scriptures from Jesus Christ Himself explaining some of who they are. What this man had is to be likened to a dream about ideas of angels though. So?

2. What realities beyond the physical are you referring to here? This man's dream? What exactly is there to counter?

You jumped into a conversation meant for an Atheist because you must just antagonize whatever a Christian (not from your denomination) says even to unbelievers.

You attacked the fact that I said something about realities beyond the physical!

So, I ask: are Angels not part of realities beyond the physical?

LordReed:


Why are OBEs special?

Because when OBE occur within an NDEs, there is no objective explanation to reject the testimonies.

TenQ:
■ You jumped into a conversation meant for an Atheist because you must just antagonize whatever a Christian (not from your denomination) says even to unbelievers.
■ You attacked the fact that I said something about realities beyond the physical!
■ So, I ask: are Angels not part of realities beyond the physical?

1. You are joking, right?

Your intention had been to claim that this man's dream amounts to evidence for existence of angels, a lie --- antichrist---- yet you actually expected me not to cut you off?

2. I didn't attack but rather made clear that all this man experience had only to do with his own mental and not reality outside of it.

3. Are the Angels you speak of situated inside of this man's mental? I provided you references from scripture of Jesus Christ explaining that all those who are born-again are become like the angels. Are we situated inside of this man's dreaming?.

Obvious answer to that would be No, so why would you suggest his dreaming confirms existence of Angels? If he had instead come back with a tale about Dracula and vampires, would you have equally taken that as validation of existence of vampires?

TenQ:

Because when OBE occur within an NDEs, there is no objective explanation to reject the testimonies.

You haven't explained why it is special.

LordReed:


You haven't explained why it is special.

For people who believe only what is physically explainable, when a oeasob who has flatlined on the theater table is describing events happening around him in zone details, it is special
Except
If you can physically explain the OBE within the NDE

TenQ:

For people who believe only what is physically explainable, when a oeasob who has flatlined on the theater table is describing events happening around him in zone details, it is special
Except
If you can physically explain the OBE within the NDE

But he wasn't describing an events happening around him in detail. He said he saw his wife and the other patient in his room which is something he was already aware of.

Kobojunkie:
1. You are joking, right?

Your intention had been to claim that this man's dream amounts to evidence for existence of angels, a lie --- antichrist---- yet you actually expected me not to cut you off?

Perhaps you should go back and check my posts : this was the exact reason I didn't mention anything spiritual to them.

My chalkwge was that they should explain the OBE away or take it seriously

.

Kobojunkie:

2. I didn't attack but rather made clear that all this man experience had only to do with his own mental and not reality outside of it.

3. Are the Angels you speak of situated inside of this man's mental? I provided you references from scripture of Jesus Christ explaining that all those who are born-again are become like the angels. Are we situated inside of this man's dreaming?.

Obvious answer to that would be No, so why would you suggest his dreaming confirms existence of Angels? If he had instead come back with a tale about Dracula and vampires, would you have equally taken that as validation of existence of vampires?

You did attack the post. It's your nature to do so!
My problem with you is that you hardly post ANY scriptural truth or teaching nor admonition on Nairaland. Your objective is to TEAR down ANYTHING that doesn't resonate well with you not minding the presence of stark enemies of the Gospel of Christ.

Even when a Christian makes error in presentation of the gospel of Christ, those who are more knowledge should tactfully correct in love. Unfortunately maybe you don't know : you are exactly the opposite.

If your husband did that which was wrong or uncomly, would you tongue lash him in public? This is your greatest weakness. At a point, one is wondering whether you and Atheists or Muslims are working together for a common cause.

I wish rather Not comment on a thread than pull down a believer (irrespective of who they are) before Atheists or Muslims and this applies even to Jehovahs witness (when discussion is with Atheists or Muslims)

LordReed:


But he wasn't describing an events happening around him in detail. He said he saw his wife and the other patient in his room which is something he was already aware of.

He was aware that the wife was crying her eyes out outside his room!?

His OBE wasn't even as compelling as others I'm sure you have listened to.

TenQ:
■ Perhaps you should go back and check my posts : this was the exact reason I didn't mention anything spiritual to them. My chalkwge was that they should explain the OBE away or take it seriously
■ You did attack the post. It's your nature to do so! My problem with you is that you hardly post ANY scriptural truth or teaching nor admonition on Nairaland. Your objective is to TEAR down ANYTHING that doesn't resonate well with you not minding the presence of stark enemies of the Gospel of Christ.
■ Even when a Christian makes error in presentation of the gospel of Christ, those who are more knowledge should tactfully correct in love. Unfortunately maybe you don't know : you are exactly the opposite.
■ If your husband did that which was wrong or uncomly, would you tongue lash him in public? This is your greatest weakness.
■ At a point, one is wondering whether you and Atheists or Muslims are working together for a common cause. I wish rather Not comment on a thread than pull down a believer (irrespective of who they are) before Atheists or Muslims and this applies even to Jehovahs witness (when discussion is with Atheists or Muslims)

1. OBE's remain nothing more than subjective experiences which can be likened to dreams, can they not?

2. Everything I have stated so far, even on this subject, has been strictly aligned with Scripture. That you aren't even aware of this is the major problem. You feel attacked by my continued use of that which is the Truth of God to counter the many claims you make means I am not your problem at all.... at all.

3. There is that which is an error from one who believes in Jesus Christ, and then there is outright lying by one who rejects Jesus Christ embracing the antiChrist instead. Never confuse the two are being the same. They are not the same. Jesus Christ made clear this difference in the way He dealt with the errors of His followers and the way He dealt with the lies of the Pharisees and false teachers.

Those who are of the religion of Christianity have their very foundation rooted in doctrines and traditions which are against Jesus Christ - Matthew 15 vs 1 - 14 & Mark 7 vs 1 - 13 - and as such lying is expected given that, as Jesus Christ Himself, has true experience of Jesus Christ but that which is imagined.

4. Did you know that Jesus Christ made it known that you are meant to abandon your wife, children, husband, father, mother, brother, sister, etc. if you are to become worthy of Him? No earthly association is meant in any way to be worth more to you than the Truth of God if you decide to become a follower of Jesus Christ. Yes, God's Truth is meant to be worth more to you than gold and even blood. If you consider it a great weakness, then you definitely know nothing of God.

5. Jesus Christ never sent anyone out to attack Muslims or atheists or anyone for that matter in His name. Rather, what He sent His followers out to do is to proclaim His Truth — against all lies perpetuated in His name. Go back through every single discussion I have had here with any of those of you who claim to believe in Jesus Christ and you will find that my focus has always been on pulling down every lie you speak using the name of Jesus Christ, and nothing more. That you feel attacked by me, is all you and not me, as I am simply doing that which Jesus Christ said His own ought to— proclaim His Truth above all lies spoken using his name. I am not sure why you are so wrapped around the atheists, Muslims, babalawos, witches, pagans, Hindus, etc. when God no send you a message, to begin with.

Kobojunkie:
1. OBE's remain nothing more than subjective experiences which can be likened to dreams, can they not?

2. Everything I have stated so far, even on this subject, has been strictly aligned with Scripture. That you aren't even aware of this is the major problem. You feel attacked by my continued use of that which is the Truth of God to counter the many claims you make means I am not your problem at all.... at all.

3. There is that which is an error from one who believes in Jesus Christ, and then there is outright lying by one who rejects Jesus Christ embracing the antiChrist instead. Never confuse the two are being the same. They are not the same. Jesus Christ made clear this difference in the way He dealt with the errors of His followers and the way He dealt with the lies of the Pharisees and false teachers.

Those who are of the religion of Christianity have their very foundation rooted in doctrines and traditions which are against Jesus Christ - Matthew 15 vs 1 - 14 & Mark 7 vs 1 - 13 - and as such lying is expected given that, as Jesus Christ Himself, has true experience of Jesus Christ but that which is imagined.

4. Did you know that Jesus Christ made it known that you are meant to abandon your wife, children, husband, father, mother, brother, sister, etc. if you are to become worthy of Him? No earthly association is meant in any way to be worth more to you than the Truth of God if you decide to become a follower of Jesus Christ. Yes, God's Truth is meant to be worth more to you than gold and even blood. If you consider it a great weakness, then you definitely know nothing of God.

5. Jesus Christ never sent anyone out to attack Muslims or atheists or anyone for that matter in His name. Rather, what He sent His followers out to do is to proclaim His Truth — against all lies perpetuated in His name. Go back through every single discussion I have had here with any of those of you who claim to believe in Jesus Christ and you will find that my focus has always been on pulling down every lie you speak using the name of Jesus Christ, and nothing more. That you feel attacked by me, is all you and not me, as I am simply doing that which Jesus Christ said His own ought to— proclaim His Truth above all lies spoken using his name. I am not sure why you are so wrapped around the atheists, Muslims, babalawos, witches, pagans, Hindus, etc. when God no send you a message, to begin with.

.

TenQ:

He was aware that the wife was crying her eyes out outside his room!?

His OBE wasn't even as compelling as others I'm sure you have listened to.

Both his wife and the other patient were in the room.

LordReed:


Both his wife and the other patient were in the room.

I am not even particular of his OBE. How about other even more compelling OBEs within NDEs?

How do we explain them away?

TenQ:

I am not even particular of his OBE. How about other even more compelling OBEs within NDEs?

How do we explain them away?

Why do we need to explain them away or otherwise? Why not just accept them for what they are, uniquely subjective experiences?

LordReed:


Why do we need to explain them away or otherwise? Why not just accept them for what they are, uniquely subjective experiences?

How can one especially as an Atheist accept OBEs within NDEs without accepting that NDEs are true non physical occurences?

TenQ:

How can one especially as an Atheist accept OBEs within NDEs without accepting that NDEs are true non physical occurences?

Same way I accept that people have dreams.

The following anecdote was related by a devotee . He was confirmed— said he—in his belief in the existence of the gods and as
helpers in the government of the world from the following incident.
Said he , A young man once fell into a swoon , and having revived, he related the vision which he had seen . He said he saw the GREAT
GOD sitting on a throne , covered with a flowing garment , attended on His right and left by Orisanla and Ifa his counsellors, behind him was a pit into which the condemned were cast . Ogun and Sopona were ministers of his vengeance to execute justice upon offenders . Ogun armed with swords (or daggers) went out daily to slay victims , his food being the blood of the slain........

Excerpt from The History of the Yorubas: From the Earliest Times to the Beginning of the British Protectorate

NDE, OBE, Vivid dreaming, regular dreaming = Brain activity that mean NOTHING

LordReed:


Same way I accept that people have dreams.

Dreams and NDEs are subjective however OBEs within NDEs may not be subjective as they may describe real physical occurences

TenQ:


Dreams and NDEs are subjective however OBEs within NDEs may not be subjective as they may describe real physical occurences

They are not describing anything but whatever is going on in the experiencer’s minds. Credulity nurtured by religion and superstition is reason y’all believe in baseless nonsense.

KnownUnknown:


They are not describing anything but whatever is going on in the experiencer’s minds. Credulity nurtured by religion and superstition is reason y’all believe in baseless nonsense.

OBEs are called such because the person may see real time physical events in a place his body couldn't have been.
Real time physical events are not baseless

TenQ:

OBEs are called such because the person may see real time physical events in a place his body couldn't have been.
Real time physical events are not baseless

They don’t see anything because it does not happen. They only thing they “see” is the same thing that goes on when they are dreaming.
There is no such thing as leaving your body or any other woo woo nonsense people claim.
Spirits, ghosts, souls, holy ghosts, etc are just bullshit.

TenQ:

In OBEs, people experience REAL life environment while physically not within such environment. OBEs are sometimes verified by others: there are many reports of that!

Funny how you discard my own report of my own subjective experience so easily.

TenQ:


Dreams and NDEs are subjective however OBEs within NDEs may not be subjective as they may describe real physical occurences

And how can we prove that that is the case?

TenQ:
■ Dreams and NDEs are subjective however OBEs within NDEs may not be subjective as they may describe real physical occurences

OBEs are not proof of anything outside of the mental.

Abstract
An out‐of‐body experience (OBE) is a phenomenon whereby an individual views his/her body and the world from a location outside the physical body. Previous studies have suggested that the temporoparietal junction (TPJ), the brain region responsible for integrating multisensory signals, is responsible for OBE development. Here, however, we first present a case of OBE after brain tumour development in the posterior cingulate cortex (PCC). The patient was a 46‐year‐old right‐handed female; she underwent brain surgery. She reported that she had experienced OBEs several times monthly (during daily life) before surgery but never after surgery. She defined her OBEs explicitly; she drew pictures. Her OBEs exhibited phenomenological, overt dissociation of the subjective and objective bodies. We discuss the mechanisms underlying this phenomenon and the relationship between OBEs and the PCC in terms of anatomical and functional brain connectivity. Our case sheds some light on the mechanism involved in creating spatial (dis)unity between the self and the body.

Keywords: out‐of‐body experience, posterior cingulate cortex, temporoparietal junction, brain tumour, disembodiment, subjective body, objective body
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7078974/

Kobojunkie:
OBEs are not proof of anything outside of the mental.

Is this your explanation to explain away OBEs a fact or a theory?

You said:

An out‐of‐body experience (OBE) is a phenomenon whereby an individual views his/her body and the world from a location outside the physical body.

Tell me how this is possible?

How do you explain physical observables reported from an OBE?

Until you can do that...

LordReed:


And how can we prove that that is the case?

Physical Third party verification of what was sighted in an OBE!

budaatum:


Funny how you discard my own report of my own subjective experience so easily.

I am not aware you stated YOUR OWN personal experience. Perhaps you can remind me