TenQ:

Why should you take the testimony (if it is true) serious?
It shows that life exist beyond the 3D space and biological brain.

QED!

Even if the experiences is from spirits not of God! Life exists beyond fless and blood!

Ok, how is a subjective experience, that has no objective evidence, evidence for an afterlife? So whatever experience in your head is sufficient proof?

TenQ:

If NDEs are dreams, are OBE also dreams?

Yes. Same process

TenQ:

If they are speaking the Truth
What if they are speaking lies?

I confirmed it with Mickey Mouse.

TenQ:

Why should you take the testimony (if it is true) serious?
It shows that life exist beyond the 3D space and biological brain.

QED!

Even if the experiences is from spirits not of God! Life exists beyond fless and blood!

I qed-deded it!

My own subjective experiences of my mixed up NDE and OBE "show that life exist beyond the 3D space and biological brain" and "life exists beyond flesh and blood".

KnownUnknown:


Yes. Same process

Okay!
I hear you.

budaatum:


I qed-deded it!

My own subjective experiences of my mixed up NDE and OBE "show that life exist beyond the 3D space and biological brain" and "life exists beyond flesh and blood".

Okay!

LordReed:


LMAO! i should only take seriously the OBEs and NDEs that confirm your specific beliefs. Right.

You didn't watch the video. See the screenshot.

Luk 16:31 KJV And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The Bible remains your sure plug, not YouTube videos Reed.

Image123:


Luk 16:31 KJV And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Have you heard of BJV aka Brother James Version
According to Luke 16:31 BJV And he said unto him, wise is he who disregard the lying tongue of lMoses and the prophets, thou saith one rose from the dead, nay, untruths thou saith.

TenQ:
■ Is this your explanation to explain away OBEs a fact or a theory? You said: Tell me how this is possible?
■ How do you explain physical observables reported from an OBE? Until you can do that...

I see you didn't bother to at least peruse the article at all.

1. Your OP claimed He experienced this OBE as part of an NDE experience, but this article reports that there are those who probably experience what they refer to as OBEs —much like we experience dreams. And in this particular care, after a tumor was removed from the patient's brain, she no longer experience the OBEs. Seem's many of these experiences are from right there in the brain — subjective, right? And this case attempts to link it to activities in particular areas of the brain.

I don't have answers to NDEs & OBEs(neither do I of Psychotic experiences) at this point in time, but what I do know is this; They all have nothing to do with the Kingdom of God or Hell as described in Scripture so it is a lie to pretend they do.

Kobojunkie:
I see you didn't bother to at least peruse the article at all.

1. Your OP claimed He experienced this OBE as part of an NDE experience, but this article reports that there are those who probably experience what they refer to as OBEs —much like we experience dreams. And in this particular care, after a tumor was removed from the patient's brain, she no longer experience the OBEs. Seem's many of these experiences are from right there in the brain — subjective, right? And this case attempts to link it to activities in particular areas of the brain.

I don't have answers to NDEs & OBEs(neither do I of Psychotic experiences) at this point in time, but what I do know is this; They all have nothing to do with the Kingdom of God or Hell as described in Scripture so it is a lie to pretend they do.

Atheists are willing to take this path because it explains away God or Angels as Spirits, therefore the article carries no weight. I don't expect you to have answers to NDEs or OBEs: my argument to Atheists and not believers it that IF the testimonies are true, they prove that life can exist without flesh and blood! QED!

NDEs or OBEs should never constitute Doctrine for Christians as within the Bible is our doctrine found. NDEs and OBEs are not required for faith in Christ, however it may be a starting point for Skeptics who do not belive that life can exist without flesh and blood

TenQ:
■ Atheists are willing to take this path because it explains away God or Angels as Spirits, therefore the article carries no weight. I don't expect you to have answers to NDEs or OBEs: my argument to Atheists and not believers it that IF the testimonies are true, they prove that life can exist without flesh and blood! QED!

NDEs or OBEs should never constitute Doctrine for Christians as within the Bible is our doctrine found. NDEs and OBEs are not required for faith in Christ, however it may be a starting point for Skeptics who do not belive that life can exist without flesh and blood

1. But how do you ascertain whether the testimonies are true or not if the experiences are subjective?

2. You mean a starting point into religious stupor, and not Jesus Christ, right? Clearly, you cannot begin into truth by way of a lie— Jesus Christ said that.

This is gettting interesting , but let me watch the video first before sharing my thoughts .later.

Before then ,current studies in the sciences says it's true people have the subjective experiences they report ,but it's not proof of heaven ,hell or an afterlife . No evidence yet that consciousness continue to exist in some form after the death of the physical body .

They also say it's not hallucination or dream since the brain of a clinically dead person cannot generate the vivid imageries associated with the experience. It's a phenomenon whose cause is not yet known .No part of the brain has been identified as the cause of NDE.



Infact since 2020 or thereabout, neuroscientist and other scientist investigating the phenomenon, on a massive scale , have rechristened NDE as EVA ; External visual awareness .So if at the moment ,you still call it NDE, or not aware of what has been discovered since then, you are not current and well informed about what is going on in the sciences, and not in a position to confidently argue for , or against NDE or OBE .


One should not jump into conclusion yet untill they have all the facts .Despite what I believe about the experience ,I still keep my mind open to new information incase.

KnownUnknown:


Have you heard of BJV aka Brother James Version
Accourding to Luke 16:31 BJV And he said unto him, wise is he who disregard the lying tongue of Moses and the prophets, thou saith one rose from the dead, nay, untruths thou saith.

Another court jester is here.

Image123:


Another court jester is here.

I salute you, our Chief Court Jester (CCJ).

Here is a link to the results of the study on NDE . It's the first phase of the study. The second phase of the study has also ended but no results has been released yet.

https://neuroskoki.pl/en/awareness-during-resuscitation-results-of-the-study/

Hello

Kobojunkie:
1. But how do you ascertain whether the testimonies are true or not if the experiences are subjective?

NDEs are purely subjective.
OBEs within NDEs may sometimes be very Objective especially when the subject is able to describe real life/real time occurences which he ordinarily shouldn't be privy to.
Several OBEs have been reported where the subject described perfectly what each medical personnel was doing during their flat line or describe what was happening outside their bed/room space.
This is why such is described as OBE and not just NDE.
Attached is what one of the Atheist of NL posted

Kobojunkie:


2. You mean a starting point into religious stupor, and not Jesus Christ, right? Clearly, you cannot begin into truth by way of a lie— Jesus Christ said that.

No mam!
A starting point to know that there are non physical existence of Living Beings (God, Satan, demons, Angels)!

Every Atheist must cross this bridge before they can be pointed to the True God and His doctrine of salvation !

TenQ:

NDEs are purely subjective.
OBEs within NDEs may sometimes be very Objective especially when the subject is able to describe real life/real time occurences which he ordinarily shouldn't be privy to.
Several OBEs have been reported where the subject described perfectly what each medical personnel was doing during their flat line or describe what was happening outside their bed/room space.
This is why such is described as OBE and not just NDE.
Attached is what one of the Atheist of NL posted



No mam!
A starting point to know that there are non physical existence of Living Beings (God, Satan, demons, Angels)!

Every Atheist must cross this bridge before they can be pointed to the True God and His doctrine of salvation !

Where is the "sometimes objective" evidence of OBE?

triplechoice:
Here is a link to the results of the study on NDE . It's the first phase of the study. The second phase of the study has also ended but no results has been released yet.

https://neuroskoki.pl/en/awareness-during-resuscitation-results-of-the-study/

That's a link to a blog. Here is the link to the actual study:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25301715/

It doesn't say that it is definitely not a hallucination or entirely a subjective experience. In fact the author says:

While the low incidence (2%) of explicit recall of VA impaired our ability to use images to objectively examine the validity of specific claims associated with VA, nonetheless our verified case of VA suggests conscious awareness may occur beyond the first 20–30 s after CA (when some residual brain electrical activity may occur) while providing a quantifiable time
period of awareness after the brain ordinarily reaches an isolectric
state.

Only one verifiable incidence out of 2060. This is not indicative of any objective afterlife IMO.

LordReed:


Where is the "sometimes objective" evidence of OBE?

Any example where the subject can tell you real time physical events happening around their environment like the surgical theatre and what each medical personnel was doing.

TenQ:

Any example where the subject can tell you real time physical events happening around their environment like the surgical theatre and what each medical personnel was doing.

As I have point out to triplechoice in the study he referenced, out of 2060 events studied only 1 was verifiable and it was not an OBE. So go ahead provide an example of a verifiable OBE.

LordReed:


As I have point out to triplechoice in the study he referenced, out of 2060 events studied only 1 was verifiable and it was not an OBE. So go ahead provide an example of a verifiable OBE.

That's for you to do if you care Or prove that OBEs where physical environments are described

LordReed:


As I have point out to triplechoice in the study he referenced, out of 2060 events studied only 1 was verifiable and it was not an OBE. So go ahead provide an example of a verifiable OBE.

That's for you to do if you care Or prove that OBEs where physical environments are described do not exist. I don't have the time

TenQ:

That's for you to do if you care Or prove that OBEs where physical environments are described

TenQ:

That's for you to do if you care Or prove that OBEs where physical environments are described do not exist. I don't have the time

LoLz. You are the one making the claim so you get to provide the evidence. Triplechoice made a claim and provided evidence, why do I need to do your work for you?

LordReed:


LoLz. You are the one making the claim so you get to provide the evidence. Triplechoice made a claim and provided evidence, why do I need to do your work for you?

Sorry I don't have the time. If you do, please go ahead

TenQ:

Sorry I don't have the time. If you do, please go ahead

Bwahahahahaha!

I just had an OBE. I saw TenQ eating eba with egusi soup.

KnownUnknown:
I just had an OBE. I saw TenQ eating eba with egusi soup.

I too had an OBE , I saw TenQ logging into Nairaland on his phone!

TenQ:

Atheists are willing to take this path because it explains away God or Angels as Spirits, therefore the article carries no weight. I don't expect you to have answers to NDEs or OBEs: my argument to Atheists and not believers it that IF the testimonies are true, they prove that life can exist without flesh and blood! QED!

I seriously can not believe that you expect us to entertain your If true-QED logic.

Read please so you know and understand what we are seeing and hearing.

budaatum:


I seriously can not believe that you expect us to entertain your If-true-QED logic.

Read please so you know and understand what we are seeing and hearing.

Too easy!
Prove that the testimonies are LIES and FABRICATIONS!

These are my thoughts on the NDE of the atheist .

I watched the video to the end, and enjoyed watching it. I like the narrators sense of humor . He really knows how to make one laugh so one watch till the end.

If the man's story is true ,then the Jesus he encountered is not the one in the Bible . This one is not judgemental or discriminatory against anyone , meaning that what is contained in the Bible about God and Jesus is not true . The man at one point even imagined a female breast in the presence of Jesus to test if he ,Jesus ,could actually read his thoughts . Jesus was not angry and smiled lovingly back at him after he thought of the big breast .Lol

In the early part of the narration ,the narrator said a short prayer while in hell, and the Jesus in the story immediately appeared to take him away from there straight to a better place that appears like heaven . This experience runs contrary to what most christians would expect to happen to such a person . An atheist or anyone else who has denied Jesus while on earth is not expected to deserve such response from him , but the narrator was saved despite the kind of life he lived . According to him ,he hates anything that has to do with God and religion ,and last prayed when he was a kid . He only remembered to say 'the Lord is my shepherd ' in hell , and that was all it took to make Jesus appear to him ,and take him away from there

I think the op is obviously disappointed about this ,and I suspect it's the reason he doesn't want to accept the man s full story as true ,but only choose the part that talks about hell and the after life experience itself in order to preach his church doctrine indirectly while denying that's not his intention

.If the atheist story proves an after life according to TenQ, why is he rejecting the other part which proves çhristians like himself are worshipping a false Jesus and God that exist in the Bible .

Well ,what did I make of all of the story?

Before I speak on that ,I would like to address something I have observed on this thread .

I'm unable to find anyone here who has enough understanding of the topic of OBE or NDE . Most people assume they do when they don't .

This is not to desparage anyone, so no one should take it personal .

But Budatum is still posting his own theoretical understanding of NDE from another thread , without realising he is very far from it.

Lordreed and some others have also responded in almost the same way. The joke of seeing TenQ logging into Nairaland has made me understand his own interpretation of the phenomenom: To him people are just making things up and believing it .

Some persons are aware that the limitations of the human language sometimes makes it difficult to make full sense if what we read or have explained to us by others.

Sometimes ,If what we read is not something we have
directly experienced ourselves ,no amount of reading or explanation will make us understand it exactly the way it should be understood .

For instance , if you have never had sex before or masturbated , no amount of reading , watching YouTube videos or any kind of explanation will make you know how it feels directly to experience an orgasm. You will only be making conjectures in your head of what it feels like which are far from the real thing . It's only when you directly experienced it yourself ,you then exclaim 'oh ! Is this how it really feels ! I didn't know '

Most of the things explained by some scientist on the phenomenon found on the net are inaccurate or not complete info .But of course , It's to be expected . They don't teach OBE in science classes and the scientist themselves don't have a direct experience of what they are trying to explain. So what are they relying on for their speculations ? Nothing reasonable ,and not even a direct experience of it . People don't bother to question what get read as long it's coming from an expert they just swallow it unthinkingly and regurgicate it anywhere .

But there is an ongoing research by scientist in order to unravel OBE so we understand what is really causing it from a scientific point of view ,backed with facts and evidence and not conjectures or personal opinion of an expert scientist somewhere .


Skepticks , atheist in particular , erroneously reject OBE with the assumption it's a religous claim just because some uninformed religious groups like to use it as a validation of heaven ,hell or God . Everyone has had an OBE, if you have not had it then ,you are just a soulless bot ,and not human .

Not every OBE is dramatic like the NDEs we read or watch on YouTube .Some occur so subtly that you don't even know you just experienced it. NDE is a type of OBE, that's triggered differently . Most people are confused about the two terms here and have been using it anyhow not caring if they are making sense or not .



In any case ,I found a solution to explain this in a way to make it very clear for anyone following who is interested in what I have to say concerning the phenomenon. Even thought everything I will explain is not fully supported by science ,it doesn't mean they not true . You are free to reject or accept . I'm not here to convince anyone one to join me to worship anything , or join any religion .

I don't claim to know it all ,but I think I know enough about the subject since I started having spontaneous OBE of a different kind from an early age ,without first reading about it anywhere untill I got to understand why I was having them .

Those experiences were the catalyst which actually pushed me into looking for answers everywhere .Some of the things I learnt on the way ,( I'm still learning and still sceptical ) and a few of my personal experiences, as illustration will be used in my explanations that I will present tomorrow .




Thank you

triplechoice:



Lordreed and some others have also responded in almost the same way. The joke of seeing TenQ logging into Nairaland has made me understand his own interpretation of the phenomenom: To him people are just making things up and believing it .

You misunderstand my point with the sarcasm. The point is I think there is no discounting that these people have experiences, we all have experiences. These people see what is obviously familiar to them in waking life during bouts of unconsciousness and interpret those experiences as something important moreso than dreams. I on the other hand do not think their experiences carry any more weight than that of a dream.