@malbron

please could you come up with a bible passage that suggests christians should pay tithes.


Also show me from the Bible how come the tithing frequency was increased from[b] once [/b] in 3 years(deut 14:28,deut 26:12) to the now monthly, weekly or even daily tithing done in today's christianity.

The early church in Acts did more than tithing. They offered 100% to the service of God. If you held back, you were found dead. Matter of fact, God owns your money 100%, so if you don't tithe, you invite some other situation to yourselve. Other angels like devil, sickness, accident, armed robbery, 419, etc could dispossess you of more than you could have paid tithing.

This is the false teaching we have been fighting all along in this forum,the early christians[b] freely[/b] sold their possessions and laid it at the apostles feet who dis tributed it to everyone as one had need..This is in line with christian giving as stated in 2 cor 9:7.

This money was not tithe,there is no where in the bible christians are asked to pay tithes or any where in the bible christians were told that those who don't pay money to the church would be visited by devil, sickness, accident, armed robbery, 419, etc

Datope:

If my pastor or anyone can twist the bible for me to pay tithes, anyone be it pastor or not also can twist the bible for me not to pay tithes.

My response to this would be found here: 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21:
20Do not spurn the gifts and utterances of the prophets [do not depreciate prophetic revelations nor despise inspired instruction or exhortation or warning].
21But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast.

Marlbron:

Kunle,

I think you have to be clear what you are fighting. Are fighting the paying of tithe or are you against its use in the church? They are two different issues and to be sure men of God have abused Tithe money for their selfish pursuits. You need tithe for the church to grow, for full time men of God to be paid and for evangelism. The economics of churches will fail without tithe, with only free will offering. That means propagation of God's words suffer.

The early church in Acts did more than tithing. They offered 100% to the service of God. If you held back, you were found dead. Matter of fact, God owns your money 100%, so if you don't tithe, you invite some other situation to yourselve. Other angels like devil, sickness, accident, armed robbery, 419, etc could dispossess you of more than you could have paid tithing.

What I am against is the twisting of scriptures to collect ten per cent of the income of the flock in the name of tithes, this is completely wrong and contrary to all the christian teachings on giving in the bible. The church and pastors are supposed to be above board and if the same instituition that is teaching us to leave a moral life is depending on immorally twisting the scriptures to survive then there is something seriously wrong some where and such an instituition cannot be of God. The early church which you referenced never paid tithes and they never gave 100% they gave as the spirit lead and the instance you are referring to in Acts is being quoted out of context annanais and sapphire died becos they lied and NOT becos they withheld. Also note that the collections made by the early church was always used to take care of the poor and needy and NOT to spread the gospel as our preachers claim today. The apostles worked to support themselves [2 thessalonians 3:6-9]. That apart how many of these churches are actually propagating the gospel? As most of them concentrate their braches in urban areas were the gospel as already reached and concentrate on snatching members from other churches instead of winning souls. They prefer to travel the seas to America and Britain [christian nations] to “preach” the gospel whilst benin republic our next door neighbour is a predominantly pagan country, is it becos there is no ready market there and easy tithes and offerings to collect??

@ Kunle Oshobu,:

21But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast.


Thank God you'[/b]ve been able to recognise that which is good, after testing and proving.

Please let [b]others also test and prove all things until they are able to recognise that which is good and to that they should be able to hold fast - Just like you.


Please stop making that YOU alone have recognised as truth to be a basis.

My 2 cents once again.

Ciao

@

Datope:

@ Kunle Oshobu,:

21But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast.


Thank God you'[/b]ve been able to recognise that which is good, after testing and proving.

Please let [b]others also test and prove all things until they are able to recognise that which is good and to that they should be able to hold fast - Just like you.


Please stop making it look like that which [b]YOU [/b]alone have recognised as truth should be the basis for others to follow.

My 2 cents once again.

Ciao

Are you saying we should also allow other armed robbers who use guns to continue robbing so as top recognise if it is good

[quote author=chukwudi44 link=topic=315563.msg4469070#msg4469070 date=1251901911]\

The Bible was so explicit when it stated that the jewish laws (including tithing) has been abolished in heb 7:18,ephe 2 :15 e.t.c

It would be immodest of me to fold my hands and watch fellow christians been fleeced of their hard earned incomes especially when the frequency was unscripturally increased from once in three years to the now daily ,weekly and monthly tithing practised today.

Your

@datope
What is your point? You seem to be sitting on the fence here? What are your convictions on the topic?

Chukwudi44, KunleOsob

I admire your informed reasonings on these matters. It is not an easy subject to deal with.

Most discerning believers are shocked and angry because of the insane amounts of money these " men of God"  make for themselves from tithes. They have moved up to the level of acquirng private jets, building expensive universities,, and that is the picture they all see when we talk about paying tithes. Lets reason together and not allow their oppulence mar our understanding of the scriptures. If the tithes and other church collections were purely focussed on the winning of souls, caring for the poor as we see in scriptures, am sure more than 90% of people will not have a problem. The men of God may not see spare change to afford jets and other trappings of the world! I have always maintained that the ENEMY has crept into modern religion, that today most modern religions (moslems, christians etc, ) resemble the anti-christ that was revealed to John, more than , wait for it, aetheist.

Back to tithing before I get ahead of myself on another topic. I am aware that 10% of people will still not agree, so lets go on and address this tithe thing, Lets start from the begining.

Who created you? Am sure you agree that God created you, yes? The same God gave you all your talents and attributes. There is nothing you achieve by your own power, it is God that gives the ability. 1st Corinth 4:7. Because he created you, he also owns you 100%. You are more or less a storehouse for God. All things you have are in trust for the creator. You should use it to glorify him. Do not rejoice that God blessed you with exceptional talent or money, but rather rejoice when you are able to give back to glorify God.

I know Chukwudi44 had a conclusion regarding tithing based on Ananais and Saphire. In Acts chapters 4&5, the new believers were so moved with oness that without compulsion, they sold all and created a common purse to feed the poor and as well to propagate God's words. Annaias and wife died because they lied to the Holy Ghost, correct! But take note of the  overwhelming spirit among believers - that of giving to a common purse for a common purpose. The feeling of togetherness and oneness facilitated that common purpose.  Is the current church together? Do they have a common purpose? Is your pastor truely annointed or ordained? The answer to these may be No, in which case you cannot be killed by the angels like Annanias and wife if you decide to keep your money. However, you still have a duty to the poor whether in or outside your church. In the ideal church environment, you leverage your money and talent with that of other people of like persuasion. In the case of Annaias, the early church freely practised more than tithing, they gave their all for each other and the work of God. I do not see how that helps the argument against tithing.

Now God may not come physically to ask you for the money or your talent, but all around you or in your place of worship, there are poor people to feed, and work of God to be done. These items need money on a regular basis. No amount of spiritual work will take the place of physical things. God created the spiritual as well as the physical and of a truth the spiritual controls the physical. But God is glorified in both the physical and the spiritual. If you fail to use God's blessing appropriately but restrict it to your personal pusuits, you are no different from the unfaithful servant that connived to defraud his master and later got punished. Mathew 24:45-51. You will agree with me that your wealth and talent may be your most precious commodity. If you can freely use it for worldly pleasures, then how about using it  to the glory of God?  I guess that this is why Christ said that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. The type of richmen that Christ talked about are the conventional ones, the bad storekeepers! Rich men who understand the principles are already in the kingdom of God and are the good storekeepers. Read also Mathew 6: 19-21, putting your treasures in heaven is actually applying it for the help of your fellow man, who is disadvantaged.

Tithing is only obligatory for 100% 10% of what you have. It is a measure of humility and acknowledgement that God owns everything. Cain & Abel were  tithers. Abels own was more acceptable to the angel of God, leading to intense hatred from Cain. Gen 4:4-7. Our common patriach Abraham was also  a tither. In the scripture, he recognized the deity of Melchisedek and He paid tithe to him. He got blessings in return. In Malachi, the prophet stresses the importance of tithe and the blessings they give. This message, he got from God directly. Before Malachi, Moses gave the same message.  I have not come across any scripture that condemmed tithe collection. During the time of Christ, he was around when the widow gave a denari as her tithe during offering. He glorified her for giving all she had. Christ did not condemm the collection of the offering, he just commented on the gracefulness of the widow, with her little offering. In essence, tithing canot be said to originate from the mossaic law, it is a [b]natural law [/b]and a recogniton of giving what is due to God. Give unto Ceaser his due and unto God his own due.


Finally, realise that in all respects we are debtors to God(Spirit), not to the flesh. Any way you utilize your wealth, satisfy yourself that it is to the glory of God in the main. If your pastor  church does not satisfy you, look for another church or even patronise a motherless home, beggars or a poor people's home. No matter, your tithe is only a minimum expense, you should aim for more than a tenth for God's glory. The race for the kingdom of God is not a sprint gentlemen, it is a long marathon and only HE can give the ability to complete it. Do not allow tithe to refrain you from your destiny.

@marlbon
Obviously, you don't know the difference between tithes and voluntary offerings prescribe for christians in da bible.

there is nothing as easy as the 2.5% of ur income and then all spent on the needy not ALFA OR IMAM except if the Alfa or IMAM is among the poor, If spent otherwise, its CHARCOAL they are consuming and they will be dealth with on judgement day, u hardly see an IMAM on high life style except he himself is rich normally,kudos to ISLAM

@

tithing canot be said to originate from the mossaic law, it is a natural law and a recogniton of giving what is due to God. Give unto Ceaser his due and unto God his own due

I klnow tithing preceded the mosaic so also did burnt offeing ,so why are we not offering burnt offerings today ?

Cain & Abel were tithers.

Sorry am yet to find a bible passage where cain and abel paid tithes rather what I saw was burnt offerings which have been stopped.

know Chukwudi44 had a conclusion regarding tithing based on Ananais and Saphire. In Acts chapters 4&5, the new believers were so moved with oness that without compulsion, they sold all and created a common purse to feed the poor and as well to propagate God's words. Annaias and wife died because they lied to the Holy Ghost, correct! But take note of the overwhelming spirit among believers - that of giving to a common purse for a common purpose. The feeling of togetherness and oneness facilitated that common purpose. Is the current church together? Do they have a common purpose? Is your pastor truely annointed or ordained? The answer to these may be No, in which case you cannot be killed by the angels like Annanias and wife if you decide to keep your money. However, you still have a duty to the poor whether in or outside your church. In the ideal church environment, you leverage your money and talent with that of other people of like persuasion. In the case of Annaias, the early church freely practised more than tithing, they gave their all for each other and the work of God. I do not see how that helps the argument against tithing

Do you mind telling me what the Apostles did with the freewill offferings realised from the church members in acts ?

Is there any where they threatened People with Malachi 3 :10 to bring money?.

Also show me from the Bible how come the tithing frequency was increased from once in 3 years(deut 14:28,deut 26:12) to the now monthly, weekly or even daily tithing done in today's christianity.

Please dont confuse freewill donations with tithing there are not the same thing.
I an not against freewill donation(be it 10% -100%) since I participate in it in my own church.

Tithing was part of the oboselete jewish law that has now been abolished as stated in heb7:15,ephe 2 :15.

It is no longer required of us christians ,christians are required to give by freewill as stated in 2 cor 9 :7.

iiik

2 Corinthians 11:3-4:
3 But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent. 4 You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different gospel[prosperity gospel] than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.

Paul and the other apostles neve preached about material prosperity and tithes.

Tithing was part of the defunct jewish laws, this is what Paul had to say about it.

Galatians 3:10-11:

10 But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.” 11 So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”

My people don't allow your pastor to push you under the curse of God by making you obey a useless law that as been anulled.

Ephesians 4:13-14:
13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won’t be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth.

The above scripture encourages us to study and understand the scriptures so we would not be manipulated and tossed up and down by preachers who try to trick us with clever lies. Evidently borrowing scriptures from the bible[i.e Malachi 3:8-10] and twisting it to mean something else is a very good example of clever lie which as now been instutionalized into the practise of the religion by these false teachers. By quoting bible verse to justify their heresies they deceive innocent people who might not understand the verse in it's proper context.

@kunle-osho,
now tell me which faith is st paul talking about here, even Jesus fulfilled the same laws and u wanna come here and start believing what ur st paul said,like having faith in jesus since he was the one that made him divine,so if u have faith in him, ure no longer under the laws whereas jesus himself dnt come to abolish the laws but to fulfill them,since he had made u people think jesus died and is only by that grace u can be saved, so why do u obey the 5commandment and why dnt u just get gun and start killing people,he also talk about circumcision of mind instead of flesh, i see why all this oyinbos dnt get circumcised,i pity u o,u dnt know st paul was against jesus teachingsand he only used jesus as a coverup to deceive the world, if u dnt know hes an anti-christ, anyway, the earlier u know the better ure prevented from going to hell fire

what a discussion!
The bible is very clear in this matter and any other matters.kunle let me start by sayin,Tithe is not a law issue.Tithing didn't come from the law.The law was after Abraham the father of faith(our father of faith-check Galatians 3).Abraham tithed (check Hebrew 7vs 1-2).the law was given to Moses and Abraham was before Moses.
you see,Melchizedek received Abraham's tithe.Melchizedek represent Christ if you follow Paul's explanation in the book of Hebrews 7.We as Christians give our tithe to Jesus Christ our high priest not pastors.They might receive it from us but spiritually we are giving to God and there are blessings attached to doing this.  You see kunle,these things are spiritual and can't be understood by the senses. 1 Corinthians 2 vs14-16.

secondly,your money is your money and you are absolutely free to do with it what you please!
You can not fight for God.
Apostle Paul taught he was helping God when he was persecuting the church.
please let learn from him.

kunle,ja wo ni apon to yo ja ki a gbo ni ila ka na.

There are a lot of land to be conquered with the gospel of our lord Jesus Christ.These men you are talking about are not reporting to you/me but God so let leave the judgment to God and let us go about winning souls to the kingdom.

and on speaking in tongues i think you should study more on it.
there is a great difference between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues
just like there is a difference between making a call and receiving a call.,

finally, as for denomination expect more 'cos God is not through yet.Until the earth is full of the knowledge of God.




alleluyah.








9

@Uplawal
What are you ranting about? If you can believe a man who claims to be a prophet from God that has no qualms about having inapproriate sexual relationships with little girls, i don't see an reason why you should have bproblems with saint Paul. There is nothing contradictory in paul's teachings and the gospel of christ. I would be willing to explain to you further if you genuinely wish to know the truth.

Kunle,
you see this discussion i is not necessary.who doen't know anything about Christ our lord not to talk about Apostle Paul.
Hear what he is saying.
We have work to do,brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jaffi:

Kunle,
you see this discussion i is not necessary.who doen't know anything about Christ our lord not to talk about Apostle Paul.
Hear what he is saying.
We have work to do,brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My brother the discussion is very necessary for the reason apostle paul says in the verse below:
Titus 1:11:
11 They must be silenced,[exposed] because they are turning whole families away from the truth by their false teaching. And they do it only for money.


As i good christian i cannot just sit down and look at some supposed christian leaders destroy the faith becuase of their love for filthy lucre. Jesus and the apostles constantly fought against false teachings, so why should we stop today?

@poster

I want u to read the topic again,But i tot the bible is the word of god so why is there a word of man in it again?Or is it Paul that wrote and say in NT while god totally say in OT?

KunleOshob:

@Uplawal
What are you ranting about? If you can believe a man who claims to be a prophet from God that has no qualms about having inapproriate sexual relationships with little girls, i don't see an reason why you should have bproblems with saint Paul. There is nothing contradictory in paul's teachings and the gospel of christ. I would be willing to explain to you further if you genuinely wish to know the truth.

Believing in a Prophet having things to do with little girls, Why dont u leave that alone and face reality?
Even if u claim the prophet is fake i will advice to compare/constract between the book given to him and that of your paul book called NT and see the differences

NB:-  He never wrote the book and never claimed that he was inspired about the written of the book.

WHEN DID LETTERS BECOME PART  OF SCRIPTURE FORM gOD

jaffi:

what a discussion!
The bible is very clear in this matter and any other matters.kunle let me start by sayin,Tithe is not a law issue.Tithing didn't come from the law.The law was after Abraham the father of faith(our father of faith-check Galatians 3).Abraham tithed (check Hebrew 7vs 1-2).the law was given to Moses and Abraham was before Moses.
you see,Melchizedek received Abraham's tithe.Melchizedek represent Christ if you follow Paul's explanation in the book of Hebrews 7.We as Christians give our tithe to Jesus Christ our high priest not pastors.They might receive it from us but spiritually we are giving to God and there are blessings attached to doing this.  

Your using the vey same hebrew passage were tithing was anulled and condenmed does not help your case, maybe you haven't been reading your bible well but i would post that passage here and highlight the salient points.

Hebrews 7:5-19:

  5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

  6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

  7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

  8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

  9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

  10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

  11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

  12[b]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.[/b]

  13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

  14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

  15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

  16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

  17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

  18[b]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [/b]

  19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

alimat 2:

@poster
I want u to read the topic again,But i tot the bible is the word of god so why is there a word of man in it again?Or is it Paul that wrote and say in NT while god totally say in OT?
Believing in a Prophet having things to do with little girls, Why dont u leave that alone and face reality?
Even if u claim the prophet is fake i will advice to compare/constract between the book given to him and that of your paul book called NT and see the differences
NB:- He never wrote the book and never claimed that he was inspired about the written of the book.
WHEN DID LETTERS BECOME PART OF SCRIPTURE FORM gOD

Paul writtings were inspired b the holy spirit and NOT written by God. That aside the other apostles confirmed he was a true apsotles and paul was part of the first church council[Acts 15] which included peter and the other apostles. Peter further went to verify that paul's writtings were inspired[2 peter3:15}. The final proof lies in the contents of his writings as they conform 100% with the teachings of Christ himself. What you muslims fail to realize is that a new covenant was established by the death of christ. But honestly given mohammed's antecedents how come you believe he is truely from God?

@kolosho

u wanna to know how come muslims beliv him abi? I will advice u wait till that final day we are all xpecting.


Thats all i hav for u, i dnt argue with unbelivers.

all of a sudden muslims too are waiting for a final day? lol what a load of hogwash this cult has become.

alimat 2:

@poster

I want u to read the topic again,[b]But i tot the bible is the word of god so why is there a word of man in it again?[/b]Or is it Paul that wrote and say in NT while god totally say in OT?

Look at this brainwashed hypocrite. If the quran is allah's word why did he allow satan's words to enter before suddenly remembering to abrogate them?

U all are ignorant and i prya for the mecry of God in u all

Dont mind the deluded hypocrites and slaves of satan . . . they know ALL the biblical and jewish prophets, you'll NEVER hear them mention one from the ishmael lineage.

alimat 2:

U all are ignorant and i prya for the mecry of God in u all

The usual tripe you get from fearful muslims. Ignorance of what? The same person crowing about the words of man being in the bible has forgotten that satan had his own words in the quran?

If the mercy of "allah" is the type exhibited in islamic nations today then pls count me out.

they spend ALL DAY whinging about Paul and the bible, open the hypocrisy and sheer illogicality of the quran to them and they start running with the usual excuse of "i dont argue with unbelievers".