.

no we don't!

When u take a look at the circle and see how complicated they are then the answer is VIVID

Religion is not necessary. People can be good with or without religion.

The average british man is not religious, yet Britain remains a better country than religious Nigeria.

Sime people feel that they need religion but that is just a personal bias. After all, we were not born with religion as babies.

hopefulLandlord:
no we don't!

Roamer who never rests and always comes to life when anything religion or God is mentioned despite claiming God does not exist and can never exist.

Always the first to book space or comment on religious threads.

Your obsession will drive you mad like Nietzsche soon.

JackBizzle:
Religion is not necessary. People can be good with or without religion.

The average british man is not religious, yet Britain remains a better country than religious Nigeria.

Sime people feel that they need religion but that is just a personal bias. After all, we were not born with religion as babies.

We were not born with religion as babies but we were born with a dependency on higher authority as babies and a need for support often times beyond what we can offer ourselves.

The only thing that fills that vacuum is God. Maybe you should ask babies to start coming out with the brain of adults or they should come out already equipped to be self reliant

However, even the atheists who deny God still find themselves running back to religious principles when it comes to training their children because they believe it holds very good values. I wonder why

We need morality not religion.

butterflylion:

We were not born with religion as babies but we were born with a dependency on higher authority as babies and a need for support often times beyond what we can offer ourselves.

Of course. Babies, puppies and kittens are all born with a dependency on higher authority. Quite disingenuous of you.

butterflylion:

The only thing that fills that vacuum is God.

What vacuum? And how exactly does a belief in God fill this vacuum?

butterflylion:

Maybe you should ask babies to start coming out with the brain of adults or they should come out already equipped to be self reliant

Not everyone can be Adam.

butterflylion:

However, even the atheists who deny God still find themselves running back to religious principles when it comes to training their children because they believe it holds very good values. I wonder why

Some religions do teach positive values. Jesus taught a few too but that was way before Christianity.

butterflylion:



We were not born with religion as babies but we were born with a dependency on higher authority as babies and a need for support often times beyond what we can offer ourselves.

The only thing that fills that vacuum is God. Maybe you should ask babies to start coming out with the brain of adults or they should come out already equipped to be self reliant

However, even the atheists who deny God still find themselves running back to religious principles when it comes to training their children because they believe it holds very good values. I wonder why

What proof do you have for the illogical nonsense that you are saying?


1. That babies grow up and they need higher authority from God

2. Atheists generally run back to god.


2 pieces of crap from you.


My comment on the other hand is both logical and provable

fuckerstard:
I feel guilty for posting this in the religion section, I don't mean any harm whatsoever. I am a practicing muslim.

I've been thinking a lot, do we really need religion as human beings. Then i turned to google to find answer but to my surprise I couldn't find any cos everyone had something different to say

Some said without religion science wouldn't have made it this far, another said religion separated us. Different views.

I know alot of people in my country are probably too religious and would have my answer. Please share your views below and i really hope this won't land me a ban.


I would appreciate if the mods can move it to FP for more views.

hello.. firstly i salute your courage.. always feel free to ask any question bothering you about religion...
i don't think religion is bad.. everything in this life is about balance .. when something becomes too much, it becomes a problem.. I'm not against practicing religion.. its when religion begins to cover other aspects of us such as our humanity etc.. we were first human.. many people don't understand the basis of religion.. so they start seeing themselves as only right saying things like

* all other religions are false
* my religion is the only true religion
* God sent this specially down from heaven

no offence intended.. but these very words are what has been causing conflicts.. the people at the top use religion as a means to control those who are dogmatic.. that's why anyone can write anything and claim “God showed me".. if you study religion alongside history and philosophy.. you'll realize that religion isn't 100% God like it claims to be.. religion isn't bad ... religious dogmatism and fundamentalism is bad.. because it blinds us to think the world revolves around us for certain reasons.. all of which are wrong.. if we really need religion.. i believe that's an individual matter

Wilgrea7:


hello.. firstly i salute your courage.. always feel free to ask any question bothering you about religion...
i don't think religion is bad.. everything in this life is about balance .. when something becomes too much, it becomes a problem.. I'm not against practicing religion.. its when religion begins to cover other aspects of us such as our humanity etc.. we were first human.. many people don't understand the basis of religion.. so they start seeing themselves as only right saying things like

* all other religions are false
* my religion is the only true religion
* God sent this specially down from heaven

no offence intended.. but these very words are what has been causing conflicts.. the people at the top use religion as a means to control those who are dogmatic.. that's why anyone can write anything and claim “God showed me".. if you study religion alongside history and philosophy.. you'll realize that religion isn't 100% God like it claims to be.. religion isn't bad ... religious dogmatism and fundamentalism is bad.. because it blinds us to think the world revolves around us for certain reasons.. all of which are wrong.. if we really need religion.. i believe that's an individual matter

Wilgrea7 and sense be like

butterflylion:



We were not born with religion as babies but we were born with a dependency on higher authority as babies and a need for support often times beyond what we can offer ourselves.

i disagree.. as people mature, they tend to feel the need to be independent of any higher authority but themselves.. teenagers and adolescents are like that.. so i think its even natural to not want a higher authority over our individual lives.

However, even the atheists who deny God still find themselves running back to religious principles when it comes to training their children because they believe it holds very good values. I wonder why

some religions hold morality.. some don't.. i don't believe any atheist would want to teach their children the doctrine of hell fire.. but they would definitely want to teach their children how to treat others like they'll want to be treated or how to show compassion

No


The world needs Christ

JackBizzle:



What proof do you have for the illogical nonsense that you are saying?


1. That babies grow up and they need higher authority from God

2. Atheists generally run back to god.


2 pieces of crap from you.


My comment on the other hand is both logical and provable

Here you are starting the Invectives again as I already told you.

For your number 2 you can ask harsmirror about that and debate him on that when he said he would raise his children according to Christian values found in the bible.

I never said atheists would run back to God so I wonder how you cooked that comment up. What I said and I quote

However, even the atheists who deny God still find themselves running back to religious principles when it comes to training their children because they believe it holds very good values. I wonder why

I wonder where you saw "running back to God" there.

For number 1, have you ever wondered why for some reason, children look up to their parents for practically EVERYTHING? if you say it's the hormones found in their brains then I wonder why such hormones were deliberately brought into the equation.

Children trust their parents with their very lives for reasons they do not know and often trust those much older than they are as well even when their parents are absent. They were born with a need for attachment and dependency on something higher and authoritative. You can call it all you want but you certainly cannot deny what's evident.

It's only in my early days as an atheist that I thought religion plays an important role to humanity even after discovering their lies, I felt religion teaches morals and that if it wasn't for religion things could have been worst, with time I realized it all negative, in fact religion is a disaster to the world, they damages the mind turning some into psychopath and blames the devil,
And most all they are all liars and bunch of hypocrites.

hopefulLandlord:


Wilgrea7 and sense be like

All religions are culture dumps, they are just nothing but following the ways the founders of the religions see the world and will want it to be. Religion is important to some people and it isn't to others.

It used to be important when men were primitive and without much knowledge about their surrounding environment, so religion provided some form of answers even though most were false but it still didn't matter because it was a rallying point and a form of societal cohesion. Now we don't need it as they did before. We can and are providing answers to many of life's questions without religion and are building moral systems without religion.

Wilgrea7:

i disagree.. as people mature, they tend to feel the need to be independent of any higher authority but themselves.. teenagers and adolescents are like that.. so i think its even natural to not want a higher authority over our individual lives.



some religions hold morality.. some don't.. i don't believe any atheist would want to teach their children the doctrine of hell fire.. but they would definitely want to teach their children how to treat others like they'll want to be treated or how to show compassion

At the bolded you should stop and ask yourself this simple question

If adults grow up thinking they are independent so need no authority over their lives would this also explain why adults grow up being offensive, quarrelsome, harbouring hatred, bitterness, lack of trust?

Children on the other hand harbour no such traits and even when they do it's like a flash. Here today gone the next minute! Makes you wonder why Jesus would want mankind to be like little Children!(you can try linking this to why a good authority would help nurture those good traits in them while this authority is also being a good example themselves.....you can link that to the need for definite unmovable morality)

Would the above also not explain why religion isn't the problem of man but the deliberate need for adult man to be independent? If all about religious moral values are strictly adhered to do you think we would have wars, famines, hatred, bitterness, etc?

Honest answer pls.

dalaman:
All religions are culture dumps, they are just nothing but following the ways and ways the founders see the world and will want it to be. Religion is important to some people and it isn't to others.

It used to be important when men were primitive and without much knowledge about their surrounding environment, so religion provided some form of answers even though most were false but it still didn't matter because it was a rallying point and a form of societal cohesion. Now we don't need it as they did before. We can and are providing answers to many of life's questions without religion and are building moral systems without religion.

the masses pretty much go along to get along. Religion-wise, they live a rote life; and they like it that way. It’s so very cozy. If those in religious authority (those in the “know”) say it’s this or that way, then it’s this or that way. Period. Don’t even question it, kind of thing. Go with the flow.

And… but… here’s the (my) kicker. I think for us to expect them to thinkdifferently is asking way too much of them for a couple of reasons. One, we are asking them to dip their precious big toe into the hell-fire and brim-stones waters. They see it (daring to do so) as almost suicidal; for sure blasphemous, and completely unnecessary. For, what possible good would it do (them)? They don’t need that complication in their lives. Just accept Christ as your Savior or submit yourself to Allah or let Yahweh take control of your life and you’re good to go. Duh, no brainer! (Literally)

Second, and I think this takes precedence over my first point, some people are just not wired to do it (question religious authority). They are not capable of going there. It’s just not in their DNA and any kind of re-wiring is futile; their wiring is set in stone (or neurons, if you prefer . I know several people like that. Actually, to expect someone to “go there” is, as I’ve said many-a-time, asking them to give up their meds. And that’s what religion is to many; their meds. Works great. “Tastes great and less filling” (than tormented thought and wonderment). I feel many Nigerians are like that. If someone tried to take away their religion, they'd see no reason to go on. It's that important to them.

hopefulLandlord:


the masses pretty much go along to get along. Religion-wise, they live a rote life; and they like it that way. It’s so very cozy. If those in religious authority (those in the “know”) say it’s this or that way, then it’s this or that way. Period. Don’t even question it, kind of thing. Go with the flow.

And… but… here’s the (my) kicker. I think for us to expect them to thinkdifferently is asking way too much of them for a couple of reasons. One, we are asking them to dip their precious big toe into the hell-fire and brim-stones waters. They see it (daring to do so) as almost suicidal; for sure blasphemous, and completely unnecessary. For, what possible good would it do (them)? They don’t need that complication in their lives. Just accept Christ as your Savior, submit yourself to Allah, let Yahweh take control of your life and you’re good to go. Duh, no brainer! (Literally)

Second, and I think this takes precedence over my first point, some people are just not wired to do it (question religious authority). They are not capable of going there. It’s just not in their DNA and any kind of re-wiring is futile; their wiring is set in stone (or neurons, if you prefer . I know several people like that. Actually, to expect someone to “go there” is, as I’ve said many-a-time, asking them to give up their meds. And that’s what religion is to many; their meds. Works great. “Tastes great and less filling” (than tormented thought and wonderment). I feel many people are like that. If someone tried to take away their religion, they'd see no reason to go on. It's that important to them.

The part in bold is very true. Many people around me will not be able to move on once yiur take their religious beliefs away. It's good in some ways but bad in others in my opinion.

butterflylion:



At the bolded you should stop and ask yourself this simple question

If adults grow up thinking they are independent so need no authority over their lives would this also explain why adults grow up being offensive, quarrelsome, harbouring hatred, bitterness, lack of trust?

I'm sorry.. i don't think what you said is related to what i said.. adults harbour hated.. lack trust etc.. but is it all? children can also harbour hatred if they are brought up like that.. not all adults are offensive.. being offensive or rude or lacking trust is not a sign of being an adult.. so i really don't get your point.. all the things you listed are negative emotions that can be portrayed by anyone and is not peculiar to any age group.. whereas the feeling of wanting to be independent is normal as people want to take responsibility and control of their lives as they get older.. except such person is mentally immature

Children on the other hand harbour no such traits and even when they do it's like a flash. Here today gone the next minute!

yes.. children are like that.. but i don't see how this relates to the need of a higher authority over one's personal life

Makes you wonder why Jesus would want mankind to be like little Children!(you can try linking this to why a good authority would help nurture those good traits in them while this authority is also being a good example themselves.....you can link that to the need for definite unmovable morality)

if Jesus wanted mankind to be as forgiving as children.. i still don't see how it relates to humans having the natural desire for a higher authority in their individual lives.. maybe I'm missing something here.. little children have the more peaceful nature.. not because of the higher authority of their parents.. although i agree that a good higher authority will help children mature into good and moral people... yes.. but that doesn't mean they lose such morality when they decide they want to be independent.. the bible said train up a child in the way he should go and when he grows he will not depart from it.. it doesn't say he will not depart from you.. we are taught morals when we are younger.. and as we grow older we build our lives based on what we learnt from these higher authorities.. it doesn't mean we still seek for the higher authorities to tell us what to do.. let me give an example.. a mother bird will teach her children how to feed or how to fly.. but will not tell the children where to fly to or point the particular worm it should eat

Would the above also not explain why religion isn't the problem of man but the deliberate need for adult man to be independent? If all about religious moral values are strictly adhered to do you think we would have wars, famines, hatred, bitterness, etc?

Honest answer pls.

yes . because not all religions have good moral values.. some religions encourage violence against non followers of that religion.. its not about adhering strictly to religions... that alone has given enough problem with people feeling they are the chosen ones or that they are the only correct ones... its more about the morality behind those religions.. adhering strictly to religion won't stop wars or hatred or famine.. it seems to have contributed to it ...

Wilgrea7:

I'm sorry.. i don't think what you said is related to what i said.. adults harbour hated.. lack trust etc.. but is it all? children can also harbour hatred if they are brought up like that.. not all adults are offensive.. being offensive or rude or lacking trust is not a sign of being an adult.. so i really don't get your point.. all the things you listed are negative emotions that can be portrayed by anyone and is not peculiar to any age group.. whereas the feeling of wanting to be independent is normal as people want to take responsibility and control of their lives as they get older.. except such person is mentally immature




yes.. children are like that.. but i don't see how this relates to the need of a higher authority over one's personal life


if Jesus wanted mankind to be as forgiving as children.. i still don't see how it relates to humans having the natural desire for a higher authority in their individual lives.. maybe I'm missing something here.. little children have the more peaceful nature.. not because of the higher authority of their parents.. although i agree that a good higher authority will help children mature into good and moral people... yes.. but that doesn't mean they lose such morality when they decide they want to be independent.. the bible said train up a child in the way he should go and when he grows he will not depart from it.. it doesn't say he will not depart from you.. we are taught morals when we are younger.. and as we grow older we build our lives based on what we learnt from these higher authorities.. it doesn't mean we still seek for the higher authorities to tell us what to do.. let me give an example.. a mother bird will teach her children how to feed or how to fly.. but will not tell the children where to fly to or point the particular worm it should eat



yes . because not all religions have good moral values.. some religions encourage violence against non followers of that religion.. its not about adhering strictly to religions... that alone has given enough problem with people feeling they are the chosen ones or that they are the only correct ones... its more about the morality behind those religions.. adhering strictly to religion won't stop wars or hatred or famine.. it seems to have contributed to it ...

Your entire comment does show "you are missing something" in all I wrote.

Mental maturity or immaturity has nothing to do with independence. Independence isn't a tangible thing. The actions are but the mental state isn't! For one to first want to "act" or "show" independence he has to first "desire" it mentally.

Now such a desire isn't in itself bad but when such desires are built on a mind that isn't morally sound then the result would be catastrophic as we always witness between nations, individuals, feelings, attitudes from wars, to indifference, to prolonged hatred and so on.

When I used the word Religious as a Christian I Am speaking for Christianity and not a general religious position do be sure to know this.

Scripture says " BE ANGRY BUT SIN NOT. LET NOT THE SUN GO DOWN IN YOUR ANGER"

in other words be angry but avoid sin in that moment and let your anger be very brief (just like children)

It also says "FOLLOW PEACE WITH ALL MEN" much like children as well. Children (when taught about tolerance and love and care and mercy) do not hold any class distinctions, are quick to help, quick to forgive, etc.

It also says "BE NOT CONFORMED TO THIS WORLD BUT BE TRANSFORMED BY THE RENEWING IF YOUR MIND THAT YOU MAY PROVE WHAT IS THAT GOOD AND PERFECT AND ACCEPTABLE WILL OF GOD" this term "world" according to Bible context refers to actions of people, worldly attitude and character. If we are told to renew our mind from such then why go the opposite direction?

A study once showed that children have been wired to be automatic helpers and would leave their comfort zone just to help one who needs them simply because they want to see you smile. They have been wired to automatically gravitate toward love, good, appreciation, kindness and move away from anything opposite from that and I wonder why. ( Look up that research).

When as a child you are trained up in the way you should grow and you abide by them, you have already been told by this "higher authority" what to do and since you are now one with your teaching, EVERY ACTION OR DECISION you make or take would be from your initial training so in a sense your dependence is still on.

Now let me rephrase my question from a Christian perspective. Note Christian means Christlike and based on the teachings of Christ.

If mankind were to follow and abide by the moral teachings of Christ, would we have wars, hatred, anger, bitterness, etc?

PS: from your comments I can tell you are no Christian, yet you are no atheist, yet you are no Muslim. Are you a Buddhist?

NO!!

I think religion or belief in spirituality or higher power is important to some people. it's some sort of therapy or coping mechanism it helps them to calm their mind while they strive to better themselves.

I guess that is the reason why the poor and downtrodden are mostly those who take religion and spirituality seriously.

I think religion is still important even though it has its disadvantages.

butterflylion:


Here you are starting the Invectives again as I already told you.

For your number 2 you can ask harsmirror about that and debate him on that when he said he would raise his children according to Christian values found in the bible.

I never said atheists would run back to God so I wonder how you cooked that comment up. What I said and I quote


I wonder where you saw "running back to God" there.

For number 1, have you ever wondered why for some reason, children look up to their parents for practically EVERYTHING? if you say it's the hormones found in their brains then I wonder why such hormones were deliberately brought into the equation.

Children trust their parents with their very lives for reasons they do not know and often trust those much older than they are as well even when their parents are absent. They were born with a need for attachment and dependency on something higher and authoritative. You can call it all you want but you certainly cannot deny what's evident.

Sir, what are you saying?

There are millions of people who raise their childten without religion. Good children. In fact, a study shows that children raised without religion show more empathy. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2015/11/study-finds-that-children-raised-without-religion-show-more-empathy-and-kindness/


Go and sleep. You have nothing to say.

JackBizzle:




Sir, what are you saying?

There are millions of people who raise their childten without religion. Good children. In fact, a study shows that children raised without religion show more empathy. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2015/11/study-finds-that-children-raised-without-religion-show-more-empathy-and-kindness/


Go and sleep. You have nothing to say.

What I said is common sense. You can keep posting articles and I can also post those that show the nonsense in yours and we would keep doing so.

So you can have this


http://wmbriggs.com/post/17238/

This second one demolishes your patheos blog post

https://www.researchgate.net/blog/post/nonreligious-children-arent-more-generous-after-all

You can now go and take a sedative and sleep for 5 years

butterflylion:


A study once showed that children have been wired to be automatic helpers and would leave their comfort zone just to help one who needs them simply because they want to see you smile. They have been wired to automatically gravitate toward love, good, appreciation, kindness and move away from anything opposite from that and I wonder why. ( Look up that research).

This is completely not true, children are not wired to do good alone. Children are very capable of doing evil and they do evil just as much as they do good. Why do parents spend a lot of time time teaching their kids the difference btw good and evil and making sure that they stick to the good alone and do away with the bad if kids are wired to automatically gravitate toward good alone and move away from anything opposite.


Anybody that has kids knows that this is not true. I see my kids and other kids do bad things that leaves me wondering and speechless sometimes, things that I know NOBODY thought them.

dalaman:



This is completely not true, children are not wired to do good alone. Children are very capable of doing evil and they do evil just as much as they do good. Why do parents spend a lot of time time teaching their kids the difference btw good and evil and making sure that they stick to the good alone and do away with the bad if kids are wired to automatically gravitate toward good alone and move away from anything opposite.


Anybody that has kids knows that this is not true. I see my kids and other kids do bad things that leaves me wondering and speechless sometimes, things that I know NOBODY thought them.

I put a clause in my post. That clause said "research it". Your comment shows you did nothing of such and just wanted to reply faster than the speed of thought.

Read and cure yourself.


http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-babies-born-good-165443013/

https://www.todaysparent.com/baby/baby-development/adorable-study-proves-babies-are-born-good/



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275892/Were-born-moral-Babies-tell-good-evil-months.html

Babies are born good. Our world corrupts them and when our world is founded on faulty morality then you can decide for yourself where it would be headed with these kids in tow.

butterflylion:


What I said is common sense. You can keep posting articles and I can also post those that show the nonsense in yours and we would keep doing so.

So you can have this


http://wmbriggs.com/post/17238/

This second one demolishes your patheos blog post

https://www.researchgate.net/blog/post/nonreligious-children-arent-more-generous-after-all

You can now go and take a sedative and sleep for 5 years

The first link is from a dumbo who is pained that religion is being criticised. The comments on the dumbos blog eviscerated him.

The second link is a more nuanced approach to criticisng the study. The problem with the study is that the empathy/altruism is more explained as a factor of nationality rather than religion. Nationality has more effect.


However, the guys in your link still acknowledge that religion and empathy have a negative correlation:

We did find that there was a small negative correlation between religiosity and generosity, but that was mainly about the children of the very religious being slightly less generous than those of the moderately religious, rather than a difference between a religious and non-religious families

butterflylion:



I put a clause in my post. That clause said "research it". Your comment shows you did nothing of such and just wanted to reply faster than the speed of thought.

Read and cure yourself.


http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-babies-born-good-165443013/

https://www.todaysparent.com/baby/baby-development/adorable-study-proves-babies-are-born-good/



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275892/Were-born-moral-Babies-tell-good-evil-months.html

Babies are born good. Our world corrupts them and when our world is founded on faulty morality then you can decide for yourself where it would be headed with these kids in tow.

Other research also says that children are capable of doing bad things and they do bad things. You aren't the only one that can throw research around.


http://www.cracked.com/article_18404_6-shockingly-evil-things-babies-are-capable-of.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1168175/How-children-evil-A-criminologist-reveals-youngsters-capable-appalling-violence.html

butterflylion:



I put a clause in my post. That clause said "research it". Your comment shows you did nothing of such and just wanted to reply faster than the speed of thought.

Read and cure yourself.


http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-babies-born-good-165443013/

https://www.todaysparent.com/baby/baby-development/adorable-study-proves-babies-are-born-good/



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275892/Were-born-moral-Babies-tell-good-evil-months.html

Babies are born good. Our world corrupts them and when our world is founded on faulty morality then you can decide for yourself where it would be headed with these kids in tow.

False

The study is not conclusive. Read your own gaddem link

Although the studies appear to show that morality is hard-wired into babies' brains, some psychologists urged caution.

Dr Nadja Reissland, of Durham University, said babies start to learn the difference between good and bad from birth.

'Everything hinges on who decides what is normal,' she said.

'By saying pushing the ball up the hill is helpful, the researchers are making a moral judgement. The babies might just prefer to see things go up rather than down.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275892/Were-born-moral-Babies-tell-good-evil-months.html

dalaman:


Other research also says that children are capable of doing bad things and they do bad things. You aren't the only one that can throw research around.


http://www.cracked.com/article_18404_6-shockingly-evil-things-babies-are-capable-of.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1168175/How-children-evil-A-criminologist-reveals-youngsters-capable-appalling-violence.html

The difference between my thread and yours is that mine cites research into kids as young as 6 months old. Yours talks about INFANTS.

here is a quote from your link

We can clearly see parental and care home failure in this case, as in many others where children behave badly.

This takes us back to faulty moral foundations which I stated earlier.

Argue with yourself. I posted research and you posted a debate link.

Even the cracked link you posted still talks about infants because it is only at infancy that kids understand communication skills as as i earlier said.