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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" (3380 Views)
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Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by Zither(m): 7:59pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
tintingz: When you have fact and evidence for evolution, monkeys mutating to human species, the origin of man, an expanding chemical soup that created the stars, moon, sun, planets, plants and the universe at large, then I'll take these scientific theories serious. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by vaxx: 8:14pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
tintingz:this prove that you see bible as a book that only speaks half truth about Jesus, if you agree with this, then there is probability that the other story maybe true or false... if will should work with the half truth.... |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by tintingz(m): 10:12pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
Zither:Science does not claim everything they claim to be true, science develope in research, they throw out claims that are later discover to be false, that's what make science strong, Lawrence Krauss even said it. There are fossils that shows evolution, there are experiments on this, there are observations of the universe to predict what happened. Maybe you should know what "scientific theories" means. Abeg, what are the experiment to show Adam and Eve existed or donkeys can talk or a virgin can get pregnant without being touched or one can walk on water etc in fact I believe Perseus rode on a flying horse pegasus. 3 Likes |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by Nobody: 10:25pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
Daviddson: would you say the same of the Koran,the fact that people choose to believe something they can not objectively proof doesn't mean others should believe as well,the bible has enough contradictions to make someone doubt its authenticity much less other problems it has got 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by Nobody: 10:29pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
vaxx: are you aware that Jesus is not the first of his kind,there were many other people before and after him(if he did exist) who claimed to be the Messiah, the fact that Christianity became a successful sect turned religion is creditable to Emperor Constantine 2 Likes |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by tintingz(m): 10:36pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
vaxx:There's no physical and archaeological evidence for biblical Jesus, the independent evidence is that there was a prisoner named Jesus or so in some Roman letter, there are just two widely accepted historical facts about Jesus existence. So NO I don't agree with the probability of some biblical myths until more evidences are provided. 2 Likes |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by wirinet(m): 12:51am On Mar 16, 2018 |
The character of Jesus Christ as portrayed in the gospels could not have existed as a person, I believe the character was a creation of the romans from a mosaic of characters from near and far eastern mythology. First there could not have been anybody called Jesus Christ because the name is purely roman names and title. Jesus is said to be a transliteration of the name Joshua, while christus is a roman title meaning messiah. So how can he answer roman name and title when he was not born of roman parents? So in effect nobody called him Jesus when he was alive. On the christus appellation, who gave him the title of messiah? Not the Jews (who till today do not see him as the Messiah ) and definitely not the Romans. So he must have been given the title christus post mortem by the writers of the bible. Secondly, there were no reference to Jesus by contemporary authors and historians of his days, meaning he was virtually unknown. For a man that was said to have done such great works and miracles such as feeding 5000 people, raising people from the dead, preaching sermons to thousands of people, resurrected after being publicly executed and then interacted with hundreds of people thereafter, etc, surely he should have caught the attention of a few historians and writers. All references to Jesus in the gospels were written post mortem. Lots of important people from that period had their biographies and statues preserved. 5 Likes |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by budaatum: 4:30am On Mar 16, 2018 |
vaxx:You dis man! I apologise, by the way. My "You generalise way too much" was meant in response to Daviddson, and not you. I do not think you generalise at all. |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by budaatum: 4:37am On Mar 16, 2018 |
Zither:Sounds to me that what you are saying is that since there is no evidence for either Biblical or Scientific 'beliefs' (according to you) one can just chose either, since they are both likely to be false? |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by Iwant2knowGod(m): 6:53am On Mar 16, 2018 |
Let them wallow in ignorance. Should I? |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by wirinet(m): 7:33am On Mar 16, 2018 |
Zither: The facts of evolution is all around us. Evolution is like upgrades of products or software. The first cars produce is quite different from the cars we drive today, but they are all evolution of the first car designed by Karl Benz and Henry Ford. We can see the evolution of the first car to the latest cars we have today. The pictures below are pictorial representation of the evolution of the car. Older models are still available today. 3 Likes
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Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by Daviddson(m): 8:43am On Mar 16, 2018 |
wirinet:On the bolded: For your information, neither "Jesus" nor "Christ" is Roman; they're both Greek. And Greek was like the dominating language of communication then because they'd been a vast empire and their culture and names had been adopted far and wide. It's just the same way the English language is currently the most used language for communication today. |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by wirinet(m): 5:53pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
Daviddson: Thanks for the correction. There was so much similarly between ancient Greek and Roman culture, that it can sometimes confusing. In fact they overlap so much. Having said that, my inference remains the same. Jesus was not Greek, his parents were not Greek, so he could not have been giving a Greek name while alive. Have you ever stopped to wonder what language or languages Jesus spoke? The main language of communication in first century Palestine especially judea was Aramaic, it was the spoken language of ordinary people, so Jesus would have spoken mainly Aramaic. The language of learning and academia was Greek, so if Jesus had any form of formal education, he would have learnt to speak and write Greek. The language of the clergy was Hebrew as the old testament was originally written in hebrew and hebrew was the language of the temple. If Jesus was a priest, he would have definitely spoken hebrew. Now, I doubt any of the disciples would have spoken Greek, because they were uneducated and unlettered. So most likely, the disciples communicated in Aramaic. Paul and Theophilus were well learned and wrote their books or letters in Greek, so maybe they were were the ones that gave the person the thought of as being the Messiah Greek names and title. |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by vaxx: 6:32pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
wirinet:Bartholomew and mattew are likely not illiterate, i can at least prove that of mattew to an extent, he was a tax collector, i think the only diciple that is not a fishermen 1 Like |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by vaxx: 6:37pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
tintingz:there is historical record, that are in parallel with the bible, for instance, the biography of the Emperor Claudius refers to agitations in the Roman Jewish community and the expulsion of Jews from Rome by Claudius during his reign ( from AD 41 to AD 54), likely the expulsion mentioned in the Bible Gateway passage: Acts 18 vs 2. In this context, the name "Chresto" is mentioned, which is likely a reference to Jesus. Obviously, this validates at least one historical reference in the Bible itself. 1 Like |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by tintingz(m): 7:47pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
vaxx:This is not a fact tho, the only widely accepted historical fact for Jesus are two and are just in written(not by Jesus himself), there is no physical and archaeological evidence to prove Jesus existed. There is no physical or archaeological evidence for Jesus. All sources are documentary, mainly Christian writings, such as the gospels and the purported letters of the apostles. The authenticity and reliability of these sources has been questioned by many scholars, and few events mentioned in the gospels are universally accepted. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus Like I said, a person of Jesus might have existed, but the biblical magician Jesus is the one I don't believe to be real. |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by vaxx: 7:55pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
tintingz:if i am getting you, you reject biblical Jesus base on supernatural activities attached to him and not because the person of Jesus did not exist. right? |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by wirinet(m): 8:04pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
vaxx: I disagree with you that the "chresto" mentioned in claudius's biography by roman historian Suetonius, was referring to Jesus. First Suetonius was born AD69 while the events he was supposedly writing about happened between the reign of Emperor Claudius (AD 41 to AD 54), so obviously Suetonius was not writing from position of facts but from hearsay, more than 5 decades after the event is said to have taken place. Secondly, Jesus was said to have been crucified between AD 30 - AD 33, so how come the same Jesus was causing trouble in Rome between AD 41 to AD 54. Thirdly, According to acts Paul had not even gotten to Rome, he was in Corinth when he was told that claudius expelled Jews from Rome because of "chresto". Fourthly, Aquila and his wife Priscilla that accomodated Paul were practicing Jews and not Christians or believers in Christ as the Messiah. 1 Like |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by tintingz(m): 8:19pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
vaxx:Not because of the supernatural attached to him, the thing is it can not be proven just like Perseus doing wonders on Earth cannot be proven or Sango performing wonders on earth cannot be proven. The historians agree there are myths attached to the person of Jesus. |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by tintingz(m): 8:20pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
wirinet:Historian |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by vaxx: 8:49pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
wirinet:If you mean this evidence do not count , why do you think the source concerning Alexander the Great count? or do you not also accept Alexander the great do exist? if not, i can as well tell you the sources written by people who actually knew Alexander or who gathered information from men who served with Alexander are all lost. and the only trusted GREEk historian , by the name Arrian of Nicomedia,who is consider one of the best sources on the campaigns of Alexander has about 500 year difference. do you think is story can be very efficient? Yet you said references to Jesus written about 5 decades which is independently verified should be dismissed. most of the history available about Alexandra the great reveals ignorance about geography,chronology and technical military knowledge, yet this source are not questioned as an accurate source of history regarding Alexander's existence. when it comes to the existence of Jesus, i am very skeptical on the theory, so i will not conclude he did not exist(there are some evidence to accept it).... regarding the supernatural Jesus as the bible portray it, that is story for another day. |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by vaxx: 8:56pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
tintingz:you are saying the same thing with different tongue,TO be able to prove the wonders done by the person of jesus is another thing, to be able to prove the existence of the personality of Jesus is another thing too? i am dealing with his personality and not the wonders from historical point of view. |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by tintingz(m): 9:26pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
vaxx:Have I not answered this, like three post of mine. |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by vaxx: 9:30pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
tintingz:I do not get your view, is like you accept Jesus as a person is real but the wonders bible claim he perform is not real. that is the way i understand your answer. i wanted to be sure if i am not misinterpreting you. so be specific and not that kind of go in circle analysis. 1 Like |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by tintingz(m): 10:11pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
vaxx:Here is what i posted. There might be some little truth about the story of Jesus in the bible but I'm yet to believe them as true as there are no historical evidence to back it up, although the person of Jesus might have existed but many of what is said about him in the bible are myths.https://www.nairaland.com/4398649/why-should-not-bother-debate#65869691 There are more archaeological evidence that supports existence of Muhammed than Jesus, the evidence that Jesus existed isn't strong but we can't deny he existed but not the bible super Jesus.https://www.nairaland.com/4398649/why-should-not-bother-debate#65866028 The emboldened part as answered your question, what else do you want to hear? |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by tintingz(m): 10:31pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
Almost all historians agree a person of Jesus might have existed or existed but they don't believe the biblical magician Jesus existed as there are no evidence for it, the evidence to prove Jesus existed isn't sufficient, just two widely accepted fact. The historical reliability of the gospels refers to the reliability and historic character of the four New Testament gospels as historical documents. Little in the four canonical gospels is considered to be historically reliable. Most scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, but scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the biblical accounts of Jesus. The only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and that, between one and three years later, he was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus Cc vaxx |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by vaxx: 10:36pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
tintingz:Then i interpret you well, YOU accept Jesus evidence as a personality is undeniable but the the wonderful biblical performing Jesus is a myth.. Good, tintingz , so what evidence will you likely suggest that will validate the the truer nature of wonder performing Jesus according to the bible? or what will make you accept that the wonders perform by Jesus according to the bible is also undeniable? |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by Daviddson(m): 10:37pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
Tintingz and Vaxx, both of you need Jesus Christ. There's no much difference between you both. One of you is a staunch atheist while the other is an agnostic or something similar. |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by vaxx: 10:42pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
tintingz:That is a good evidence buttressing the personality of Jesus personhood by wiki.... AT LEAST THERE IS CONSENSUS AGREEMENT |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by vaxx: 10:49pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
Daviddson:please, i am not an atheist, be careful of your labeling, i once told you i am a traditionalist. and thanks for you opinion. it is welcome. |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by wirinet(m): 11:17pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
vaxx: There is a huge difference between the historicity of Alexander and that of Jesus. Numerous people including contemporary authors and generals wrote extensively about Alexander the great, the problem is that they were all lost. Remember the great library in alexandra was complete destroyed. How else did you think Arrian of Nicomedia was able to write consise biography 500 years later? He had the original sources of course. He could not have dreamed up the biography of Alexander the great. One of the most importance source as cited by Arrian of Nicomedia was the writings of Ptolemy I Soter, who was a general that fought beside Alexander and went on to rule Egypt. Alexander's influence was felt all over the ancient world, from Macedonia to Persian all the way to India. The same cannot be said of Jesus. No one has claimed contemporary literary works of Jesus was lost. What we have are general beliefs by followers as penned down by authors decades later. Alexander the great had physical evidence. There are many coins that date to his period with his head on it. There are also numerous busts and statues of Alexander, some that survived till today. In the case of Jesus nothing, all the roman Catholic could come up with was a shroud that was said to have been used to cover the crucified Jesus and the shroud retaining the physical features of Jesus. The shroud had been proven to be a 12th or 13th century fraud. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Why You Should Not Bother To Debate Whether Jesus Ever "Existed" by vaxx: 11:40pm On Mar 16, 2018 |
[quote author=wirinet post=65902738] There is a huge difference between the historicity of Alexander and that of Jesus. Numerous people including contemporary authors and generals wrote extensively about Alexander the great, the problem is that they were all lost. Remember the great library in alexandra was complete destroyed.yes they were all lost, so how can we now depend on the information available? are we working with faith? How else did you think Arrian of Nicomedia was able to write consise biography 500 years later?i postulate he may also depend on hearsay as you rightly put the case of the available evidence that buttress the GOSPEL of act He had the original sources of course. He could not have dreamed up the biography of Alexander the great. One of the most importance source as cited by Arrian of Nicomedia was the writings of Ptolemy I Soter, who was a general that fought beside Alexander and went on to rule Egypt. Alexander's influence was felt all over the ancient world, from Macedonia to Persian all the way to India.this is your own assumptions, any evidence to back it up that Arian of Nicomedia historical position on Alexandra the great is nothing but the truth? per the bold, was the influence of Alexandra felt during Alexandra reign in those country you mentioned or after so many years of Alexandra departure or death ? your answer will buttress my next reply Alexander the great had physical evidence. There are many coins that date to his period with his head on it. There are also numerous busts and statues of Alexander, some that survived till today.''There have also been interesting archaeological discoveries as well bearing on the gospels. For example, in 1961 the first archaeological evidence concerning Pilate was unearthed in the town of Caesarea; it was an inscription of a dedication bearing Pilate’s name and title. Even more recently, in 1990 the actual tomb of Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over Jesus’s trial, was discovered south of Jerusalem. Indeed, the tomb beneath the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem is in all probability the tomb in which Jesus himself was laid by Joseph of Arimathea following the crucifixion''. According to Luke Johnson, a New Testament scholar at Emory University. |
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