LordReed:


If he borrowed it from the bible won't it sound exactly like the bible?

There's an old show from the 80s/90s, I believe. Touched By An Angel. Did you ever see it? It was heavy on angels. Borrowed the theme from the Bible and yet nothing it said about angels had anything to do with the Bible's teaching about them.

Same way, anything may be borrowed from the Bible but once it is forced to fit where it doesn't, it won't sound like the Bible at all.

LordReed:
LoL OK so who is correct you or Ihedinobi3?

What does it matter to you who is correct between him and I?

Ihedinobi3:

There's an old show from the 80s/90s, I believe. Touched By An Angel. Did you ever see it? It was heavy on angels. Borrowed the theme from the Bible and yet nothing it said about angels had anything to do with the Bible's teaching about them.

Same way, anything may be borrowed from the Bible but once it is forced to fit where it doesn't, it won't sound like the Bible at all.

I loved that show but its not similar to what you say happened here. You said the scribe who added the Mark 16 bits took them from events already in the bible so it sounds exactly like the bible except it stands out because it supposedly is not the god's idea. Aside from you and scholars I happen to have read, no Christian I know has ever said oh by the way those bits in Mark 16 are not a true part of the bible. In fact people pass those scriptures as the words of Christ authorising signs and wonders, first with the Apostles then onwards. Which means they pass a cursory scrutiny, they are exactly in theme with the subject matter. Look at what MuttleyLaff said, it is prophecy which came to pass. Most Christians accept it as part of the bible meaning it passes the smell test.

MuttleyLaff:
What does it matter to you who is correct between him and I?

Doesn't matter in the least bit to me but maybe it does to you.

Ihedinobi3:

What? You started a conversation on the back of a response I made to a completely different conversation and you insist I made a claim? What is the matter with you? You felt the need to come and tell me how there is no God and I'm the one responsible to prove otherwise to you? Why should I care what you want to believe?.

You claimed that creation is evidence for God and I asked you to prove your claim. What is the evidence that things we see around were created by Yahweh? His signature is where? Again when I look at the asteriods I'll know that Yahweh created them how?

You also believe that there is no God in spite of the witness of Creation and your own conscience. Why should I believe anything you say about what has to do with God and what doesn't?

I am only challenging your claims. Now you are talking about witness of creation. Where you a witness to when things were created? The things we see in nature attest to Yahweh how? The polio virus attest to Yahweh how? You are just making empty claims. When asked to provide evidence you try to run aay by saying you don't owe me anything when all you've been doing since is trying to explain to me things about your God and even telling me how he acts and operates. If you owe me no explanation thend why waste your time telling me how your God acts and why he does things. It's only when you are stuck that you cone up with these lame exudes else explaining your God and how you feel.it's cats is what you are always doing when you engage other atheist and me.

So, seeing as I made no claims to you, empty or not, I am not in your debt at all. That is what you were doing your best her to avoid saying, isn't it? Rather, you are the one who decided to come and educate me on how there is no God. But because you have absolutely no proof that there is none, you want me to do your work for you? Not going to happen. If you want to show me that there is no God, go on and do so. I'm listening.

You just claimed that creation serves as evidence of God. Where is your evidence for this empty claim? If I tell you that you are evidence for evolution you'll ask me to provide evidence for my claims. Your own evidence for your claims are where? You made a claim about God and I said you should provide evidence for it. That's all I've stated right from the beginning. You keep saying God this and God that but even with your God hypothesis you can not tell me anything about creation. You just keep saying God as if it explains anything. God is just your default position for I don't know. Else you should be able to use God and explain to me how cells came about and what God used to created them and also the process he used to bring them to life.

1. I will answer any questions that are reasonable even if all you mean by them is to try to prove one false point or another. But I won't make your arguments for you. It's not my problem if you believe in God or if you do not. Great for you if you do, bad for you if you don't. I'm on the sidelines here. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and am working at following Him closely everyday. That is my business.

2. Babies don't do anything until they are born. But all human children are born from human parents with damaged bodies and that does affect the human children sometimes. And God allows it also for the good. An argument that it is some kind of proof that God doesn't exist is non sequitur. An argument that it is proof that God is evil is an argument from silence.

LOL! God allows a baby with down syndrome for which God? A baby born with a congenital heart disease serves what God? Do you really know or understand what you are saying at all? LOL!

So, basically, you don't know why He has to do so. You just demand that He should do so because you want Him to. Because you want Him to take orders from you, right?

And God told you that he won't or can't provide physical proof of himself when and where? The bible is full of God providing physical proof of himself in many places, it's funny that you keep saying that God doesn't need to. God told you that when and where? If it's of no importance he won't take all the troubles he did to show the people like he did according to the bible.

Still no proofs that the Bible was written by men etc. Just more tantrums and foot-stamping.

When you've been knocked out you label it as tantrum as if it means anything. If the bible is true Jesu'so promise to you will manifestin your live. You will be doing so many wonders like he died, but the fact that you are unable to do anything nt even one says that the promise is a lie.

Books are a humans creation, same is writing. The bible is a book, written by humans who even have their names as the titles of some of the books. Humans wrote the bible and there's nothing inside the book that humans could not have written. Nothing at all. It remains a book written by humans.

1. Even if studies showed that only one person in all of human history has ever converted, they immediately make you a liar. The point is that it is possible. And it has happened.

It has happened in all directions. Christians that convert to Islam were also made to do so by Allah. If your claim is true.

2. Refer to my earlier answers. The world around us and our own consciences are the witnesses.
[quote]

The world around us is evidence for the existence of the world, that's all, it's not evidence for Yahweh. Let me play your games too. You are telling lies, consiousness is evidence for natural selection.

[quote]
The issue is not power or ability. It is character. A single-person God would simply not create groups. That is because it would go against its character to do so. That is an impossibility: for a God to act contrary to its own nature.

A single person God will not create groups if it wants because of what ? Because your said so? There is nothing about groups that goes against a single person God. It's just anot emlty claim you made out of thin air. A single person God that wants and is able to create anything can do so. Allah wants to create humans and he did. Nothing in his single nature goes agains him creating humans to serve him as a loyal slave. You are just making empty claims as always.

"Hindus generally accept the doctrine of transmigration and rebirth and the complementary belief in karma. The whole process of rebirth, called samsara, is cyclic, with no clear beginning or end, and encompasses lives of perpetual, serial attachments. Actions generated by desire and appetite bind one’s spirit (jiva) to an endless series of births and deaths. Desire motivates any social interaction (particularly when involving sex or food), resulting in the mutual exchange of good and bad karma. In one prevalent view, the very meaning of salvation is emancipation (moksha) from this morass, an escape from the impermanence that is an inherent feature of mundane existence. In this view the only goal is the one permanent and eternal principle: the One, God, brahman, which is totally opposite to phenomenal existence."
- https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hinduism/Karma-samsara-and-moksha

Granted that Hinduism is a chaos with all sorts of colliding "truths", Moksha has one core meaning, it appears, to all Hindu schools. That meaning is one of release or freedom from the sufferings of this life. The prevalent view spoken of above is very likely the idea of being absorbed back into the Brahmin and becoming one with the All and thus escaping this world of pain.

Do you follow?

The Hindus Gods created the material world. I dot really understand this your rigmarole.

o I care whether you believe that I am making empty claims or not? As a matter of fact, what claims have I made to you exactly? Did you not start the conversation to educate me how there is no God?

I started the conversation to ask you to proof your assertions.

Is He obliged to do it now?

Why not?

It is not a lie. What God has to do to harden a heart is merely take an obstinate person and give them a "stretchier" free will, if you want. That is, these people gain an ability to resist God far longer than human beings ordinarily can. But the flip side of that ability is that they can also use it to submit to God having seen just how great His Power is.

But even if He hardened Pharaoh's heart, what is that to you? Did He harden your own? If He has, too bad for you. You are still His creation and He can do anything He wishes with you. But do you know that He has?

It's a lie because non of what you've stated is written inside the bible. You just made it up to explain absurdity away. The bible even said that Pharoah acted exactly as God has stated and wanted him to as a result of hardening his heart. I dropped the verse, you can read it again, nothing there comes close to what you just made up.

1. It's just common sense. I know that common sense means different things for Christians and atheists but you decided to come and educate a Christian so you'll have to deal with the consequences. God being God is not your subordinate. So, it is absurd to imagine that He owes you anything. In fact, He is by definition your overlord and you owe him your very self.

2. I'm telling you everything I am because you asked.

3. I do not speak for any other Christians. I speak for myself and represent what I have learned from the Bible. Feel free to interrogate those who tell you to ask God to reveal Himself to you.

Where did God tell you that he can't reveal himself to people? Where? According to the tale God knows me more than I even know myself and he knows exactly what will convince me, so what exactly are you even talking about? If it's true, then you don't even need to be making any excuses since you aren't God and he didn't tell you what he can or canot do at any time. Why are you making empty claims on his behalf?

The passage doesn't say. You'll have to interrogate the scribe who wrote it in.

But in the actual Bible where it speaks of such things, the signs were signatures that the man doing them was God's emissary and should be listened to. But these days, only the Bible has been given as an endorsement. If anyone speaks contrary to the Bible, no matter what "signs" they may be seen to do, they are to be rejected.

Interrogate which scribe? You see, you even said that when the bible speaks of such, the person is God's emissary that should be listened to. Why use signs for his emmisaries? Because he knows they are important.

LordReed:


I loved that show but its not similar to what you say happened here. You said the scribe who added the Mark 16 bits took them from events already in the bible so it sounds exactly like the bible except it stands out because it supposedly is not the god's idea. Aside from you and scholars I happen to have read, no Christian I know has ever said oh by the way those bits in Mark 16 are not a true part of the bible. In fact people pass those scriptures as the words of Christ authorising signs and wonders, first with the Apostles then onwards. Which means they pass a cursory scrutiny, they are exactly in theme with the subject matter. Look at what MuttleyLaff said, it is prophecy which came to pass. Most Christians accept it as part of the bible meaning it passes the smell test.

It is quite similar in fact. Just like the show took snippets of information and then mixed them up with all sorts of fantasies, so did the scribe.

The most effective lies are always cloaked in token truths. Our Lord did not ascend to Heaven twice. He did not say that it is necessary to be baptized to be saved. He never said that those who believe in Him would perform miracles etc. These are all lies and anyone who actually bothers to read the Bible will not take long to notice that something is weird about those passages unless they got sidetracked by bad teaching.

As for who says it, pretty much every major version of the Bible you pick up puts in the footnote that everything from verse 9 onwards was not in the best manuscripts. That at least is warning to be taken seriously.

Ihedinobi3:

It is quite similar in fact. Just like the show took snippets of information and then mixed them up with all sorts of fantasies, so did the scribe.

The most effective lies are always cloaked in token truths. Our Lord did not ascend to Heaven twice. He did not say that it is necessary to be baptized to be saved. He never said that those who believe in Him would perform miracles etc. These are all lies and anyone who actually bothers to read the Bible will not take long to notice that something is weird about those passages unless they got sidetracked by bad teaching.

As for who says it, pretty much every major version of the Bible you pick up puts in the footnote that everything from verse 9 onwards was not in the best manuscripts. That at least is warning to be taken seriously.

OK what other verses are additions that don't fit.

LordReed:


OK what other verses are additions that don't fit.

The story of Jesus and the adulterous woman ( him wothout sin should cast the fiest stone)was also added by scribes and some others.

dalaman:


The story of Jesus and the adulterous woman ( him wothout sin should cast the fiest stone)was also added by scribes and some others.

Wow really?

dalaman:


You claimed that creation is evidence for God and I asked you to prove your claim. What is the evidence that things we see around were created by Yahweh? His signature is where? Again when I look at the asteriods I'll know that Yahweh created them how?

As I told you, there are only two ways to explain creation (if you disagree, you should proceed to explain why you do):

1. Someone made it.

2. It has always existed.

I believe that it is obvious that #2 is false. If creation has always existed, it would not possess signs of decline and instability and it does.

#1 is therefore the only meaningful way to explain the existence of Creation.

As to the specific identity of this Maker, that can be discovered by comparing what is seen in creation to any claims made regarding who or what made it.

You ask what God's Signature is? My answer is Creation itself. The very nature of Creation (that is, how it works) is the testimony any reasoning person needs to understand Who made it.

Now, if this answer is not good enough for you, you'll need to explain why it isn't. Then you should proceed as well to provide your alternative.

dalaman:
I am only challenging your claims. Now you are talking about witness of creation. Where you a witness to when things were created? The things we see in nature attest to Yahweh how? The polio virus attest to Yahweh how? You are just making empty claims. When asked to provide evidence you try to run aay by saying you don't owe me anything when all you've been doing since is trying to explain to me things about your God and even telling me how he acts and operates. If you owe me no explanation thend why waste your time telling me how your God acts and why he does things. It's only when you are stuck that you cone up with these lame exudes else explaining your God and how you feel.it's cats is what you are always doing when you engage other atheist and me.

Your posts are always rife with non sequitur.

First, you obviously cannot give me any reason why I should believe anything you say about the Bible.

Second, I have answered your questions here.

Third, that I give you an answer does not mean that I owe you one. I did not challenge your faith. I did not make an argument that you are refuting. The post that you were responding to was asking the OP a question, challenging the OP's claim with an objection. While it did imply a position, it was not making a formal argument. So, when you say that I claimed this and that, you are actually lying. I do believe that God gave creation and the human conscience as perfect evidence of His existence. But I did not offer an argument about that. Therefore, I really have nothing to defend to you. I am merely indulging you because I believe that every reasonable question and objection has value for me.

dalaman:
You just claimed that creation serves as evidence of God. Where is your evidence for this empty claim? If I tell you that you are evidence for evolution you'll ask me to provide evidence for my claims. Your own evidence for your claims are where? You made a claim about God and I said you should provide evidence for it. That's all I've stated right from the beginning. You keep saying God this and God that but even with your God hypothesis you can not tell me anything about creation. You just keep saying God as if it explains anything. God is just your default position for I don't know. Else you should be able to use God and explain to me how cells came about and what God used to created them and also the process he used to bring them to life.

If my "evidence" was that important to you, you would not have been challenging my first post on the thread. Rather, you would have challenged my full arguments made both to advance my objection to the thread and develop my own point of view. That is why what you are doing here is only trivial. I don't believe that you deserve anything you are demanding although I have even gone on to give it just because I often use these conversations for purposes of my own.

dalaman:
LOL! God allows a baby with down syndrome for which God? A baby born with a congenital heart disease serves what God? Do you really know or understand what you are saying at all? LOL!

This is informal debate, it is true, but there are limits to what may be tolerated even here. If you go to so much trouble to get me to give you my time and energy to explain my position to you only for you to answer with questions I already answered and a "do you really know or understand what you are saying at all?" then you lose any goodwill you had with me.

Like I said, I don't owe you any answers. It does nothing for me if you believe in Jesus Christ or if you don't. I believe you should. I would be pleased if you did. I would help you in any way I can in order for you to do so. But whether or not you do does not affect me except only peripherally. So, it is only to your own benefit or harm, not to mine. If, then, you continue this lazy pattern, I will not bother any further with responding to you.

dalaman:
And God told you that he won't or can't provide physical proof of himself when and where? The bible is full of God providing physical proof of himself in many places, it's funny that you keep saying that God doesn't need to. God told you that when and where? If it's of no importance he won't take all the troubles he did to show the people like he did according to the bible.

The question was:

how does God's doing anything mean that He "needs" to do it at all?

Was it not you who said that God can do anything He likes? Why does He now need to do anything?

dalaman:
When you've been knocked out you label it as tantrum as if it means anything. If the bible is true Jesu'so promise to you will manifestin your live. You will be doing so many wonders like he died, but the fact that you are unable to do anything nt even one says that the promise is a lie.

Books are a humans creation, same is writing. The bible is a book, written by humans who even have their names as the titles of some of the books. Humans wrote the bible and there's nothing inside the book that humans could not have written. Nothing at all. It remains a book written by humans.

1. Who said the Lord Jesus's Promise wasn't fulfilled? Is that another one of your unsubstantiated claims?

2. Even among humans, there is a popular concept called ghostwriting. The inverse of that is what happened with the Bible. God not only commissioned men to write, but He practically wrote through them and allowed them to share credit with Himself although it was really all His Work.

dalaman:
It has happened in all directions. Christians that convert to Islam were also made to do so by Allah. If your claim is true.

Dalaman, the only claim made here was yours. I have an even lower limit on falsehoods than I have on frivolity.

dalaman:
The world around us is evidence for the existence of the world, that's all, it's not evidence for Yahweh. Let me play your games too. You are telling lies, consiousness is evidence for natural selection.

It is an axiom, a manifest principle in itself that everything that is made is itself a witness to its maker. If this were not true then investigation as a practice would not exist especially in art and crime, for example. The way the thing made or done is made or done (that is, how it works) is conclusive proof of the nature of its maker or doer.

Now, unless you disagree either that

1. the world around us cannot always have existed;

OR

2. that there are only two options to explain it,

then the only question we have to answer is whose nature is evident in creation.

To answer that, we look at the claims made for creator. If Jesus Christ, then is His Nature evident in Creation? If Brahmin, is its nature evident in Creation? If Allah, is his nature evident in Creation? And so on.

My position is that the Nature of the Trinity is very evident in creation. The Trinity (best known in Jesus Christ) is the Only Contender that perfectly explains existence.

To give you two examples how this is so...

1. The Trinity is a multiple-Person God. As such, that explains why things exist in groups related intimately to one another.

2. The Trinity is Just and Righteous. That explains why Death exists and why creation is in decline while at the same time things are seen to be renewed a lot and sometimes miraculously saved from destruction as if by the skin of the teeth.

dalaman:
A single person God will not create groups if it wants because of what ? Because your said so? There is nothing about groups that goes against a single person God. It's just anot emlty claim you made out of thin air. A single person God that wants and is able to create anything can do so. Allah wants to create humans and he did. Nothing in his single nature goes agains him creating humans to serve him as a loyal slave. You are just making empty claims as always.

This is a good opportunity to explain why I restrict a lot of my responses to yours and other atheists' arguments and essentially only answer direct questions. Clearly, we argue from completely different axioms. What I take for granted that you would know and understand you antichristians often are ignorant of or at least reject.

There is such a thing as consistency, for example. It is a natural principle. Things that are consistent with each other explain each other satisfactorily.

It is not consistent for a God Whose nature is not fellowship- and relationship-inclined to create a universe that is fellowship- and relationship-themed.

That is why the claim that Allah created this universe is manifestly false. He wouldn't because he couldn't.

Understand that I cannot convince you of this if you reject the axiom involved in the first place. And I have no intention to bother to do so.

dalaman:
The Hindus Gods created the material world. I dot really understand this your rigmarole.

Then, perhaps you should study your claims a little more in-depth.

dalaman:
I started the conversation to ask you to proof your assertions.

As I said, it was the thread itself that made assertions and I was questioning them. And if you had wanted to investigate the basis of my disagreement with the thread, you would have read my other posts and then challenged them instead.

dalaman:
Why not?

Why would a God need to do anything?

dalaman:
It's a lie because non of what you've stated is written inside the bible. You just made it up to explain absurdity away. The bible even said that Pharoah acted exactly as God has stated and wanted him to as a result of hardening his heart. I dropped the verse, you can read it again, nothing there comes close to what you just made up.

I was under no obligation to explain it to you in the first instance. I have even less interest in showing you any biblical support for it. Still...


[10]And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
[11]for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
[12]it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger."
[13]Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
[14]What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
[15]For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
[16]So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
[17]For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."
[18]So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
[19]You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
[20]On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
[21]Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
[22]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
[23]And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
[24]even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Romans 9:10-24 NASB

Note in particular the text that is both in bold and underlined.

To make it simple, God is merciful and does wish for everyone to be saved. Therefore, He does not prevent them from being saved. That is what Paul said there. But God is also omniscient and knows that no matter what is done for or to some people, they will never willingly obey Him. Therefore, while God does indeed provide them with every opportunity and every resource that they require to choose to be saved, He uses them as agents for His Purposes according to their own nature as "vessels of wrath" which will only eventually be destroyed.

In this way, Pharaoh whose heart was already hard toward God was given even more opportunity to grow more hardened against God. So he did. As God knew he would. And that was used by God to demonstrate His Power to the world by breaking an unusually arrogant man.

dalaman:
Where did God tell you that he can't reveal himself to people? Where? According to the tale God knows me more than I even know myself and he knows exactly what will convince me, so what exactly are you even talking about? If it's true, then you don't even need to be making any excuses since you aren't God and he didn't tell you what he can or canot do at any time. Why are you making empty claims on his behalf?

Where did I claim that God cannot reveal Himself to anyone? And what claims did I make here that are empty?

I have no idea why you think that seeing God would convince you of His Existence when you reject the evidence of creation and your own conscience. You will see God eventually. We all will. But today, God commands faith and gives as a basis for it the world around you and your own conscience. If you will not willingly believe today, you will lose all ability to doubt at the Judgment of the White Throne. But at that time, your belief will do you no good at all.

As for what convinces people, this is a true story that the Lord Jesus told in the Bible:


[19]"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
[20]And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
[21]and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
[22]Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
[23]In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24]And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
[25]But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
[26]And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
[27]And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-
[28]for I have five brothers-in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
[29]But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
[30]But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
[31]But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
Luke 16:19-31 NASB

That is, nothing will convince anybody who doesn't want to believe. Not even a veiled vision of God Himself. The only thing that will end all doubt is God's Appearance in His Glory. And when that happens, free will will be negated so that you have absolutely no choice but to believe. But at that point, you will not be saved. That is why it is only at the Last Judgment (not counting the Second Advent for the Beast and all those who take his mark) that all deniers and doubters will see God.

dalaman:
Interrogate which scribe? You see, you even said that when the bible speaks of such, the person is God's emissary that should be listened to. Why use signs for his emmisaries? Because he knows they are important.

God does what God does because God wants to do it and it is consistent with God's Nature.

LordReed:


OK what other verses are additions that don't fit.

A fairly good guide is the footnotes in major modern translations. They're not always accurate but they are good enough for just reading since they are correct far more often than not. But for teachers of the Bible, the standard for accuracy is much higher.

dalaman:


The story of Jesus and the adulterous woman ( him wothout sin should cast the fiest stone)was also added by scribes and some others.

LordReed:


Wow really?

Yes, John 7:53-8:11 is not part of the Bible at all.

LordReed:


Wow really?

Yeah, it was added by a scribe. Doesn't appear in the original manuscripts. Many bible versions acknowledge to the fact. There are other few minor ones as well. That are just a sentence mostly.

Ihedinobi3:




Yes, John 7:53-8:11 is not part of the Bible at all.

Wow!

dalaman:


Yeah, it was added by a scribe. Doesn't appear in the original manuscripts. Many bible versions acknowledge to the fact. There are other few minor ones as well. That are just a sentence mostly.

Yeah I knew about some of the little additions in other to make it more understandable in English. Addition of things like the, you, and, etc. I wasn't really aware large portions were added in like this.

Evem though God preserved them that dosent change the fact. many will still perish. so that dosent.matter. If you believe in God, believe in His word also..

If you dont know what to say better ignore no body is forcing you to comment

Ihedinobi3:

As I told you, there are only two ways to explain creation (if you disagree, you should proceed to explain why you do):

1. Someone made it.

2. It has always existed.

I believe that it is obvious that #2 is false. If creation has always existed, it would not possess signs of decline and instability and it does.

#1 is therefore the only meaningful way to explain the existence of Creation.

As to the specific identity of this Maker, that can be discovered by comparing what is seen in creation to any claims made regarding who or what made it.

You ask what God's Signature is? My answer is Creation itself. The very nature of Creation (that is, how it works) is the testimony any reasoning person needs to understand Who made it.

Now, if this answer is not good enough for you, you'll need to explain why it isn't. Then you should proceed as well to provide your alternative.

If the universe and everything is energy which it is then it can neither be created nor destroyed but can only keep changing from one form to another. So the way nature works shows how God is? When you observe nature you'll see that it is wasteful, cruel and destructive. That means the nature of your God is wasteful, cruel and destructivebecause that is how nature works.

Your posts are always rife with non sequitur.

First, you obviously cannot give me any reason why I should believe anything you say about the Bible.

Second, I have answered your questions here.

Third, that I give you an answer does not mean that I owe you one. I did not challenge your faith. I did not make an argument that you are refuting. The post that you were responding to was asking the OP a question, challenging the OP's claim with an objection. While it did imply a position, it was not making a formal argument. So, when you say that I claimed this and that, you are actually lying. I do believe that God gave creation and the human conscience as perfect evidence of His existence. But I did not offer an argument about that. Therefore, I really have nothing to defend to you. I am merely indulging you because I believe that every reasonable question and objection has value for me.

All I do is jjst challenge all the claims you are making which to me are just empty because you are just making them without any evidence at all, for example you just said that God gave humans existence perfect example of his existence where? Where in nature is God's perfect example of his existence? Do you know what perfect means? If it's perfect where are you here trying to explain it to me?

If my "evidence" was that important to you, you would not have been challenging my first post on the thread. Rather, you would have challenged my full arguments made both to advance my objection to the thread and develop my own point of view. That is why what you are doing here is only trivial. I don't believe that you deserve anything you are demanding although I have even gone on to give it just because I often use these conversations for purposes of my own.

You are the one claiming God and event trying to tell me how and why it acts. All I do is ack you questions based on your claims. If God created humans then, how did he create the human cells, which materials did he used to create them and which process did he use to give them life? This questions should show any body that is serious that even with the God claim you sti do not know what you are talking about because so far you've only used it as your default position for things you do not know and an assumption as to how you feel things should be. I am interested in knowing if your claims are factual not based on assumptions and opinions.

This is informal debate, it is true, but there are limits to what may be tolerated even here. If you go to so much trouble to get me to give you my time and energy to explain my position to you only for you to answer with questions I already answered and a "do you really know or understand what you are saying at all?" then you lose any goodwill you had with me.

Like I said, I don't owe you any answers. It does nothing for me if you believe in Jesus Christ or if you don't. I believe you should. I would be pleased if you did. I would help you in any way I can in order for you to do so. But whether or not you do does not affect me except only peripherally. So, it is only to your own benefit or harm, not to mine. If, then, you continue this lazy pattern, I will not bother any further with responding to you.

Your logic and claim was absurd that was why I made the statement. I brought up the issue of babits born with congenital diseases and you claimed God allows it because it is good. What is good in a baby born with a congenital disease? If it's good then why are we humans trying our best to change it? You also stated that nature shows God's goodness, if it's true then diseases are good? Why are we eliminating diseases if they are good? Truly I find your claims absurd.

The question was:

how does God's doing anything mean that He "needs" to do it at all?

Was it not you who said that God can do anything He likes? Why does He now need to do anything?

Doing it alone means he wanted it and needed it that's why he did it, since doing it lewd to some desirable end for him from the biblical stories.

1. Who said the Lord Jesus's Promise wasn't fulfilled? Is that another one of your unsubstantiated claims?

2. Even among humans, there is a popular concept called ghostwriting. The inverse of that is what happened with the Bible. God not only commissioned men to write, but He practically wrote through them and allowed them to share credit with Himself although it was really all His Work.

It's not. Again we are told that Jesus was a great miracle worker that did so many wonder that even the book of the world could not carry them if they were to be written. Among the great things he did were that he walked on water, calmed the storm, turned water into wine, raised people that were dead for days, healed amputees and restored their amputated body parts back, feed thousands with few fish and loaves of bread etc. Jesus himself the promised YOU that you'll do greater things than this once you believe in him. You believe in him and I am putting it to you that you can't do any of them. No Christian in the world can do them. It simply means that Jesus lied. That's all.

God the alleged all knowing being practically wrote the bible with humans yet he doesn't know that insects walk on 6 legs? He doesn't know that day and night are caused by the sun? He doesn't know that it is the earth that move round the sun? He doesn't know that stars are far bigger than the eartg and can not fall into the earth etc. God wrote the bible and it is riddle with falsehoods, mythological tales and fiction.





Dalaman, the only claim made here was yours. I have an even lower limit on falsehoods than I have on frivolity.

It is an axiom, a manifest principle in itself that everything that is made is itself a witness to its maker. If this were not true then investigation as a practice would not exist especially in art and crime, for example. The way the thing made or done is made or done (that is, how it works) is conclusive proof of the nature of its maker or doer.

Now, unless you disagree either that

1. the world around us cannot always have existed;

OR

2. that there are only two options to explain it,

then the only question we have to answer is whose nature is evident in creation.

To answer that, we look at the claims made for creator. If Jesus Christ, then is His Nature evident in Creation? If Brahmin, is its nature evident in Creation? If Allah, is his nature evident in Creation? And so on.

My position is that the Nature of the Trinity is very evident in creation. The Trinity (best known in Jesus Christ) is the Only Contender that perfectly explains existence.

To give you two examples how this is so...

1. The Trinity is a multiple-Person God. As such, that explains why things exist in groups related intimately to one another.

2. The Trinity is Just and Righteous. That explains why Death exists and why creation is in decline while at the same time things are seen to be renewed a lot and sometimes miraculously saved from destruction as if by the skin of the teeth.

These are just empty hypotheticals. Nothing stops a single person God that has rhe abilitu to do all things from doing any of the things you have stated at all. So long as he wants it and has the ability to do it nothing stops him. I fail to see any point in what you have written simply because a single person God that can do anything and has that ability can do it. A single person God with unlimited knowledge and ability can form groups and do what ever it wants.

This is a good opportunity to explain why I restrict a lot of my responses to yours and other atheists' arguments and essentially only answer direct questions. Clearly, we argue from completely different axioms. What I take for granted that you would know and understand you antichristians often are ignorant of or at least reject.

There is such a thing as consistency, for example. It is a natural principle. Things that are consistent with each other explain each other satisfactorily.

It is not consistent for a God Whose nature is not fellowship- and relationship-inclined to create a universe that is fellowship- and relationship-themed.

That is why the claim that Allah created this universe is manifestly false. He wouldn't because he couldn't.

Understand that I cannot convince you of this if you reject the axiom involved in the first place. And I have no intention to bother to do so.

You are telling lies, even among the names of Allah he is known and called the most merciful, the most benevolent, the most gracious, the just. That shows that he is a fellow ship and relationship God. Only a God that fellowships and relates with his creations shows mercy, kindness, is just and also gracious. Saying that Allah isn't fellow ship and relationship inclined is a lie.

I was under no obligation to explain it to you in the first instance. I have even less interest in showing you any biblical support for it. Still...


[10]And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
[11]for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
[12]it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger."
[13]Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
[14]What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
[15]For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
[16]So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
[17]For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."
[18]So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
[19]You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
[20]On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
[21]Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
[22]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
[23]And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
[24]even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Romans 9:10-24 NASB

Note in particular the text that is both in bold and underlined.

To make it simple, God is merciful and does wish for everyone to be saved. Therefore, He does not prevent them from being saved. That is what Paul said there. But God is also omniscient and knows that no matter what is done for or to some people, they will never willingly obey Him. Therefore, while God does indeed provide them with every opportunity and every resource that they require to choose to be saved, He uses them as agents for His Purposes according to their own nature as "vessels of wrath" which will only eventually be destroyed.

In this way, Pharaoh whose heart was already hard toward God was given even more opportunity to grow more hardened against God. So he did. As God knew he would. And that was used by God to demonstrate His Power to the world by breaking an unusually arrogant man.

Even the biblical verses you quoted all stand against what you said initially which was that God was allowing him more room than usual to make a decision about God. The verses clearly said that God harden his heart for a reason and to achieve a purpose. Paul even said who are you a pot to question the potter because the potter has the right to do what ever he wants with the pot. He hardeens who he desires and have mercery on who he desires, again the bible doesn't support your first claim at all.

here did I claim that God cannot reveal Himself to anyone? And what claims did I make here that are empty?

I have no idea why you think that seeing God would convince you of His Existence when you reject the evidence of creation and your own conscience. You will see God eventually. We all will. But today, God commands faith and gives as a basis for it the world around you and your own conscience. If you will not willingly believe today, you will lose all ability to doubt at the Judgment of the White Throne. But at that time, your belief will do you no good at all.

As for what convinces people, this is a true story that the Lord Jesus told in the Bible:


[19]"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
[20]And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
[21]and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
[22]Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
[23]In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24]And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
[25]But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
[26]And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
[27]And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-
[28]for I have five brothers-in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
[29]But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
[30]But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
[31]But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
Luke 16:19-31 NASB

That is, nothing will convince anybody who doesn't want to believe. Not even a veiled vision of God Himself. The only thing that will end all doubt is God's Appearance in His Glory. And when that happens, free will will be negated so that you have absolutely no choice but to believe. But at that point, you will not be saved. That is why it is only at the Last Judgment (not counting the Second Advent for the Beast and all those who take his mark) that all deniers and doubters will see God.

Creation is not evidence for the existence of God. Didn't God know that creation is evidence for his existence when he revealed himself to Paul on the road to Damascus? Did Paul deny his existence after that? Why do yu keep saying that if God reveals himself to peoplelike me we won't believe? Did Paul disbelieve? Did the projects of Baal disbelieve? Why are you the one knowing what will happen? Who are you?

God does what God does because God wants to do it and it is consistent with God's Nature.

And showing himself physically is against his mature? .he told you that when and where?

The only challenge I have with atheists, maybe Nigeria atheists, is that they've convinced themselves that they're more intelligent than others who who in God/a god(s). They make it seem like science is anti-God, even when most of them are not scientists. There's always this arrogance present in every of their statement. To them atheism, is hatred for (Christian) God, not believe in non-existence of God.

I admit that the church failed most of them, so they resorted to atheism (hatred for God). But it baffles me while their "anti-godism" seems to attack Christianity and some times Islam.

Why not travel down to your village, locate the chief priest and ask him to prove that whatever he's preaching is real. If any of you has tried it, let's know. Don't give excuses. There are educated ifa priests, so don't give the excuse of civilized argument.

I think it's foolishness for me to spend most part of my life on a forum filled with people who believe in something that doesn't exist.

I as a person doesn't believe in vampires. So if there are 1000 forums online about vampires, I won't go there cos I know vampires don't exist. But atheists on the other hand spend most part of their lives online and offline amisdt religious folks arguing the non-existence of God. If you're convinced something/someone doesn't exist, why trying so hard to prove it?

Atheists, have you sat down to ask yourself why you're obsessed with Christianity I'm particular? Have you wondered why you always have the seemingly uncontrollable urge to disprove Christianity? Ever wondered why you've never had the same urge to disprove sango, ogun, amadioha etc?

Some of you go as far as reading Bible just to pick holes in it so you can use it as points in your next argument. Some of you still goto church. You spend more time on religious forums than even religious folks. The year is running to an end, think of how you've spent the year. Think of what you spent most part of the year doing. Ask yourself why? Come up with a good reason and let's know. Remember, the fact that you're an atheist doesn't mean you're more intelligent than religious folks. Wole Soyinka is a worshipper of ogun (I think).

dalaman:


If the universe and everything is energy which it is then it can neither be created nor destroyed but can only keep changing from one form to another. So the way nature works shows how God is? When you observe nature you'll see that it is wasteful, cruel and destructive. That means the nature of your God is wasteful, cruel and destructivebecause that is how nature works.

All right then.

First, you reject my position because you believe that energy has been demonstrated to be indestructible and that all the universe is energy. So, the universe has always existed and will always exist. Therefore it is eternal.

The above is what you believe to be evident.

Second, you also believe that nature is wasteful, cruel and destructive.

What I conclude from these two definitive statements is that you consider the Universe to be God Itself and it is a capricious God that only harms.

All right. I have noted your own position. And I am uninterested in engaging it at this point.

dalaman:
All I do is jjst challenge all the claims you are making which to me are just empty because you are just making them without any evidence at all, for example you just said that God gave humans existence perfect example of his existence where? Where in nature is God's perfect example of his existence? Do you know what perfect means? If it's perfect where are you here trying to explain it to me?

This again is a non-answer. A non-answer fails to address the arguments it is responding to.

dalaman:
You are the one claiming God and event trying to tell me how and why it acts. All I do is ack you questions based on your claims. If God created humans then, how did he create the human cells, which materials did he used to create them and which process did he use to give them life? This questions should show any body that is serious that even with the God claim you sti do not know what you are talking about because so far you've only used it as your default position for things you do not know and an assumption as to how you feel things should be. I am interested in knowing if your claims are factual not based on assumptions and opinions.

Another non-answer.

dalaman:
Your logic and claim was absurd that was why I made the statement. I brought up the issue of babits born with congenital diseases and you claimed God allows it because it is good. What is good in a baby born with a congenital disease? If it's good then why are we humans trying our best to change it? You also stated that nature shows God's goodness, if it's true then diseases are good? Why are we eliminating diseases if they are good? Truly I find your claims absurd.

Faith means trust. That means that you repose confidence in something even when you do not quite understand certain things going on.

I have faith in God that answers that are not manifestly evident today will be provided in the future and those answers will be perfect. I will understand fully and perfectly one day, for example, why babies are born with the conditions you are so exercised about.

Today, however, all I know for sure is that human beings are evil and therefore our bodies are damaged. This damage unfortunately affects even children who are born into the world with deformed bodies through no fault of their own.

I also know that God is good and never does any evil. So if He permits anything in His Creation, even when I don't perfectly understand why, I am confident that it is for the good.

But you don't believe this, I understand. I don't care that you don't. In your worldview, it makes sense that such things should happen since the God involved is capricious and wicked (although it is a huge question how the nature of a God can ever be perceived as such). But it would be a very bad logical fallacy to argue that it cannot be for the good that such things happen only because God never explained how it is for good. That is called an argument from silence. That God has not explained does not mean that there is no reason. It just means that we ought to trust Him about it. I'm fine with that. You're not.

dalaman:
Doing it alone means he wanted it and needed it that's why he did it, since doing it lewd to some desirable end for him from the biblical stories.

I don't see how this is not a non sequitur.

dalaman:
It's not. Again we are told that Jesus was a great miracle worker that did so many wonder that even the book of the world could not carry them if they were to be written. Among the great things he did were that he walked on water, calmed the storm, turned water into wine, raised people that were dead for days, healed amputees and restored their amputated body parts back, feed thousands with few fish and loaves of bread etc. Jesus himself the promised YOU that you'll do greater things than this once you believe in him. You believe in him and I am putting it to you that you can't do any of them. No Christian in the world can do them. It simply means that Jesus lied. That's all.

God the alleged all knowing being practically wrote the bible with humans yet he doesn't know that insects walk on 6 legs? He doesn't know that day and night are caused by the sun? He doesn't know that it is the earth that move round the sun? He doesn't know that stars are far bigger than the eartg and can not fall into the earth etc. God wrote the bible and it is riddle with falsehoods, mythological tales and fiction.

1. Was it you who said that we would do greater things than the Lord Jesus did?

2. Your argument in the second paragraph is unclear. Restate it, if you please.

dalaman:
These are just empty hypotheticals. Nothing stops a single person God that has rhe abilitu to do all things from doing any of the things you have stated at all. So long as he wants it and has the ability to do it nothing stops him. I fail to see any point in what you have written simply because a single person God that can do anything and has that ability can do it. A single person God with unlimited knowledge and ability can form groups and do what ever it wants.

This is a non-answer.

dalaman:
You are telling lies, even among the names of Allah he is known and called the most merciful, the most benevolent, the most gracious, the just. That shows that he is a fellow ship and relationship God. Only a God that fellowships and relates with his creations shows mercy, kindness, is just and also gracious. Saying that Allah isn't fellow ship and relationship inclined is a lie.

This is a non-answer.

dalaman:
Even the biblical verses you quoted all stand against what you said initially which was that God was allowing him more room than usual to make a decision about God. The verses clearly said that God harden his heart for a reason and to achieve a purpose. Paul even said who are you a pot to question the potter because the potter has the right to do what ever he wants with the pot. He hardeens who he desires and have mercery on who he desires, again the bible doesn't support your first claim at all.

Can you demonstrate how any of those verses prove that when God hardens a person, it is not by giving them a "stretchier" free will so that they have greater capacity to reject God or submit to Him than normal?

dalaman:
Creation is not evidence for the existence of God. Didn't God know that creation is evidence for his existence when he revealed himself to Paul on the road to Damascus? Did Paul deny his existence after that? Why do yu keep saying that if God reveals himself to peoplelike me we won't believe? Did Paul disbelieve? Did the projects of Baal disbelieve? Why are you the one knowing what will happen? Who are you?

1. Your counter-claim that creation is not evidence is dismissed. It is not an argument.

2. First, I have already said to you before that God will give anything anybody needs to believe in Him if they want to believe. So, I have never argued that God will not appear to anyone. I only asked why you are confident that you will believe then if you are rejecting every other witness that is given to you right now.

3. Paul believed in God. He just didn't believe that Jesus Christ was that God as well. But as soon as He saw a vision of Jesus Christ he believed with all his heart, doubting nothing. Compare to that the actions of his fellow Pharisees when the Lord Jesus rose from the dead. They were told by their soldiers what had happened and how an angel had come and rolled the heavy stone away to expose the empty tomb. They knew that the Lord Jesus had risen from the dead. But rather than believe in Him, they paid the soldiers to spread lies about it even promising to protect them from Pilate's anger if it came to that. Faith is a choice.

4. The prophets of Baal were all killed, so probably not. But Jezebel obviously didn't believe. And given that Israel continued to worship idols after that incident so that God went on to destroy the nation shortly after, they didn't believe in spite of the great miracles they saw from Elijah and Elisha after him.

5. I am a believer in Jesus Christ. So I stand with what the Bible says.

dalaman:
And showing himself physically is against his mature? .he told you that when and where?

That is the wrong conclusion from what I said. I was explaining that God does not do anything except He wants to and it is consistent with His nature. He never has any need to do anything. That is what it means to be God. He is utterly self-sufficient. You yourself said as much.

LordReed,
Ummm wow....I was torn between "ignoring" you or "acknowledging" you...
Anyhow, I want to thank you for wishing me a Merry Christmas...the other day.
I was shocked! I guess you may have been mocking the Lord yet again....but see, there is something beneath all of that.
You are searching....I know it.
See....if only you were a soldier of Christ.....if only..
All I can say is "never say never".
Anyhow, will be praying for you sir as 2019 soon approaches.

Mobilia:
LordReed,
Ummm wow....I was torn between "ignoring" you or "acknowledging" you...
Anyhow, I want to thank you for wishing me a Merry Christmas...the other day.
I was shocked! I guess you may have been mocking the Lord yet again....but see, there is something beneath all of that.
You are searching....I know it.
See....if only you were a soldier of Christ.....if only..
All I can say is "never say never".
Anyhow, will be praying for you sir as 2019 soon approaches.

It is funny how you folk take people who bear you no ill will as enemies simply because they choose not to believe your brand of fairytale. You also assume a genuine wish for well being is somehow mocking your fairytale lord and you wonder why we think religion rots the brain.

Anyway if your wish is for me to ignore you consider it done.

LordReed:


It is funny how you folk take people who bear you no ill will as enemies simply because they choose not to believe your brand of fairytale. You also assume a genuine wish for well being is somehow mocking your fairytale lord and you wonder why we think religion rots the brain.

Anyway if your wish is for me to ignore you consider it done.

Sir, you misunderstood me completely.
I said I was "torn" about replying you at first....but obviously I made the decision to reply you..cause part of me felt like there was a slight possibility that you were being sincere.
I did not wish for you to ignore me...nor did I say that at all. You clearly misinterpreted me.
Do I like how you constantly ridicule my Lord and Savior? Absolutely not...it's repulsive to be quite honest.
However, if you read my words clearly, I appreciated you for kindly mentioning me (regardless of motive)..and was thanking you for it.

Mobilia:


Sir, you misunderstood me completely.
I said I was "torn" about replying you at first....but obviously I made the decision to reply you..cause part of me felt like there was a slight possibility that you were being sincere.
I did not wish for you to ignore me...nor did I say that at all. You clearly misinterpreted me.
Do I like how you constantly ridicule my Lord and Savior? Absolutely not...it's repulsive to be quite honest.
However, if you read my words clearly, I appreciated you for kindly mentioning me (regardless of motive)..and was thanking you for it.

Your god I consider a fairytale and so I can caricature at will, you on the the other hand are a real human being who I chose to wish well, why then would you ever think I have some ulterior motive? What other motive can someone have for wishing another human being well? It's saddening the way religion makes you see enemies where there are none.