dalaman:


Yahweh is a fool, so also is Jesus. Both uselse and foolish imaginary idiots you've been indoctrinated with by ancient fools to believe in their fictional stories. Even you know that they are imaginary fools that can't do anything. If it were before you'll be telling me to insult Yahweh and see if he doesn't kill me . Yahweh and Jesus are foolish animals.

dalaman:


[s]Yahweh is a fool, so also is Jesus. Both uselse and foolish imaginary idiots you've been indoctrinated with by ancient fools to believe in their fictional stories. Even you know that they are imaginary fools that can't do anything. If it were before you'll be telling me to insult Yahweh and see if he doesn't kill me . Yahweh and Jesus are foolish animals.[/s]

belva5:

my prayer for u is that u will see the light before u die.
I honestly wish that God will have mercy on u before u die

felixomor:



[img]https://i./NMYW.gif[/img]

dalaman:


[s]Still doesn't stop Yahweh and Jesus from being idiotic and foolish animals[/s].

dalaman:


Your evidence that God created all we see is what? When did any God personally appear to you and told you that she created anything? Where is God's signature in any thing that was created? If you were not indoctrinated with the Yahweh stories, how will you be able to know that Yahweh and not Brahma created the universe? So the bible which is the words of men is your evidence for God? Why not the Koran or the Hindus Verdes? Thesent books are also evidence for Allah and Brahma.

Even in the bible God was all over the place using miracles and physical proof of himself just to force the people and make them believe in him. .

Ihedinobi3:

To be honest, I am not sure how this is any kind of response to my comment. So I will treat it like a completely different argument than the thread to which I was responding in the comment.

Your challenge: "Your evidence that God created all we see is what? When did any God personally appear to you and told you that she created anything? Where is God's signature in any thing that was created?"

My response: Let me put it this way: if you don't believe that God made everything you see (and far much more that you cannot), you assume the responsibility to explain how it all exists. What are your hypotheses and proofs?

Your challenge: "If you were not indoctrinated with the Yahweh stories, how will you be able to know that Yahweh and not Brahma created the universe?"

My response: The world around us and our own selves either corroborate or refute the claims made about them.

b]Your challenge:[/b] "So the bible which is the words of men is your evidence for God?"

My response: First, it is your claim that the Bible is the words of men, not mine. As such, it is up to you to say why you make such a claim. Second, I have not offered you any such evidence for God. The only evidence that God has given for His Existence and for His Character according to the Bible is creation itself and human conscience.

Your challenge: "Why not the Koran or the Hindus Verdes? Thesent books are also evidence for Allah and Brahma."

My response: I am not a Muslim or a Hindu. But what I do know from and about the Bible convinces me that it is the Truth and what I do know about Islam and Hinduism also convinces me that they are lies.

Your challenge: "Even in the bible God was all over the place using miracles and physical proof of himself just to force the people and make them believe in him."

My response: This is an example of a straw man fallacy. Where does the Bible say anything like what you just said? Why do you not consider that God used miracles and physical proofs to demonstrate that as long as creatures have free will, nothing will make them believe in Him if they don't want to?

felixomor:


After saying they dont exist!

Hehehe, anyway

dalaman:


Yahweh is Great. I ADORE HIM .

dalaman:


I don't need to make any hypothesis or guess. You are claiming God and all I'm asking you is if God personally appeared to you and told you anything about him creating the universe. Did God tell you personally or do you just believe what others have said about what they call God?

dalaman:
Where in the world does Yahweh's signature appear? Without being told how did you get to know that Yahweh created the Atlantic Ocean ? You mentioned yourself, did Yahweh personally appear to you and told you he created anything?

dalaman:
Of course the bible is the words of men, men wrote down all the books and all its claim. Tell me something written inside the bible that could not have been written by men. The bible remains the thoughts, ideas, conceptions, fiction and mythological writings of men. If you know any part of the bible that wasn't written by men, you should point to it. If the bible is the word of God then why does it rely on indoctrination and place of birtg for people to believe it? If you were born into a Sunni myslim family in Saudi Arabia today you'll be a sunni Muslim, if you were born to a Shire family in Iran a Shire Muslim or a Hindu family in Mumbai you'll be Hindu. You were born in a Christian family and the surrounding culture hence you are a Christian. Why does God's word depend on accident of birth to people? Again, nothing on the bible wasn't written by men and no thoughts inside isn't human thoughts or ideas, if you know any then show it.

dalaman:
What about Islam and Hinduism convinces you that they are lies? Can you show me anything that Yahweh can do that Allah or Brahma can not do? In fact go ahead and show me one things that Yahweh can do that these two Gods can not do, from there we'll know if they are lies.

dalaman:
If God knows that humans will not believe him why use miracles to convince them? What was the purpose of the miracles? Wasn't it to show his might, power and special abilities? Even the bible talks about signs that believers will have so that unbelievers will see and believe. If it isn't important it won't be stated.

Ihedinobi3:

Yes, you absolutely do. You are claiming "no God". And all I am asking you to do is tell me how everything can exist without a God to explain it.

1. The very nature of things speaks to what made them. The way they work always testifies to the purpose(s) that they serve. That is what the signature of a maker upon his work always is.

. Without being told, no one would know the specific identity of a creator. The same applies to God. But when you are told, you can tell whether what you are told is true by comparing what you see to what you hear about the maker.

. Why does God have to appear to anybody to prove anything? Is it only things we see that are true?

1. Per the Bible, why should I believe anything you say about the Bible? Where is the proof of the things you claim?

2. There are Muslims and Hindus who have become believers. In my culture, which is a parallel here, my grandfather was born into an ancient and entrenched tradition that had other gods and other philosophies. But he became a Christian when he heard the Gospel too.

1. Islam, for one thing, believes in a Single-Person God Who has always existed alone. That is inconsistent with creation. There is a multiplicity of individuals everywhere you look which speaks to the existence of a God Who must understand "fellowship" and "relationship" and "family", that is, a God for Whom a cohesive unit of individuals is normal.

induism holds that material existence is the "enemy" here. That is, it is the "hell" we all need to and are trying to escape from. That is also inconsistent with creation. Everything that surrounds us teaches us that although there is much pain and sorrow in material existence, they are more like blemishes on an otherwise perfect system. That is, the problem cannot be material existence although it is true that material existence is not perfect.

These are just illustrations.

2. What reason do I have to show you anything like that?

1. What is your proof that God ever used miracles to convince anyone of anything?

2. The purpose of miracles is varied in the Bible. Sometimes, God intervened in the natural order of things to deliver those who were faithful to Him. Sometimes, He offered extra proof of Himself and His Power to otherwise obstinate people in case they really cared to know about Him. In the vast majority of these latter instances, the obstinate people never believed and the Bible teaches that this is because faith in God is a free will choice. The only way anyone can be forced to believe in God is if He takes away their free will by appearing to them in His Majesty. But He never does. Whenever He appeared to human beings in the Bible, He did it in such a way that that person could later deny to themselves that they ever saw God. Witness Pharaoh's response to Moses's miracles. Consider also Israel during the Exodus.

3. Where does the Bible say anything about signs that believers will have so that unbelievers will believe?

dalaman:


God is just our ignorance, it's just empty claims without evidence. I don't need to make empty claims about things I don't know. People use God to fill in gaps of knowledge that's why there are different God ideas all used to explain things differently. Even with God nothing has been explained. You believe God created humans for example but can you tell me what God used to create the human cells? What process did he use to put life into the human cell? What materials did he use to create the cells? Use God alone and give me the answer to those questions since you are claiming God.

dalaman:
So the nature of virus that causes diseases speaks to the nature of Yahweh, the nature of earth quakes also does that? What about the nature of pathogens and how wild nature is? The purpose of pathogens is to cause diseases, we as humans are always trying to eliminate them, so God made their purpose to eliminate us with diseases while we are constantly trying to destroy them from carrying out God's purpose. So the signature of God is in diseases causing pathogens.

I want you to show me God's signature not make empty claims like you just did. These are just empty claims that have no evidence at all. If God has a signature it will be known and seen, how come anybody looking at pathogens doesn't see any God's signature in them?

dalaman:
How do you compare a loving God and a God that creates disease pathogens? How do you compare a loving God to a God that allegedly creates babies with congenital diseases that humans are constantly trying to correct and make right?

dalaman:
That's what he does in some parts of the bible. Send signs to people so that they know that he exist and wants them to follow and obey him. If God wants people to know that he exist then he needs to show them that he exist, there is nothing in nature that says anything about Yahweh. You can never know anything about Yahweh just by looking at nature. You'll have to be told about Yahweh before you get to know about it not by lookin at Nature, our ancestors lived for thousands of years and studied nature, they never got to know anything about Yahweh until the Europeans came and introduced them to it.

dalaman:
The bible was written by me, fact
There is nothing written inside the bible that men can not write. Fact.
The bible contains fiction and mythologies that don't happen. A man can not live inside a fish for 3 days for example, if the bible is true you would have been able to show it. After all Jesus promised those of you the ability to do greater things than he did, we were told he was a great miracle worker that did so.many wonder that if theyvwere to be written the books of the world at that time could not contain them, he walked on water, turned water into wine, feed 5 thousand with few fish and loaves of bread, raiser the dead, healed amputees etc and PROMISED those of you that believe in him the ability to go greater things than he did. You can't do any of it because it's a lie. If it's rrue you'll be doing the things Jesus did because he promised you that ability if ONLY you believe in him. You can't do any because it's a lie.

dalaman:
There are Christians who become Muslims and Hindus too, many people of traditional african religions became Muslims after being exposed to Islam and reading the Koran. So I don't see your point.

dalaman:
How is it inconsistent with creation? What stops an all powerful supreme being that can do anything from creating the universe? You've not shown how an all powerful being that can do all things(Allah) lacking the ability to be able to create the universe. . . .It's just an empty claim. Muslims believe Allah to be all powerful and having the ability to do all things. That alone is enough for him to create the universe since he wants it.

dalaman:
I really don't understand the point you are trying to make here.

dalaman:
I don't want illustrations because they are empty. Show me something that is real. After all you claim your God is real. I want you to show me something that your God an do that Allah and Brahma can not do so that we will know that your God is real and those other Gods are not real. That's why I want you to do that.

dalaman:
The bible. He used miracles to show the prophets of Baal that he can do what Baal can't. Remember the test with Elijah? That was to convince the people and show them that he is real, and that Baal is false.

dalaman:
But God hardened Pharaoh's heart according to the story, so it wasn't his fault. According to the bible God used miracles to make people believe in him. And many did believe in him. He tells and warns people that he will magically infect them with diseases or disasters unless they obey him and all. Meaning that he wants to use signs to make them believe because he knows that such things are very important.

dalaman:
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.

LordReed:
Ihedinobi3

What was the purpose of Mark 16

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

LordReed:
Ihedinobi3
What was the purpose of Mark 16

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Ihedinobi3:

Everything written in the Gospel of Mark after Mark 16:8 was never part of the Bible. So, there is no divine purpose (the only purpose, of course, that counts here) to it.

MuttleyLaff:
It each and all has to do with prophecy LordReed.

Each and every account of verses 17 and 18 have been fulfilled

LordReed:
Ihedinobi3

So how do explain how those very things supposedly occurred in Acts?

Ihedinobi3:

First, I did not say that those things were not going to happen. In Acts, it was even said straight out that the Lord granted special miracles through the hand of Paul. These things had always been part of God's Way of communicating to men.

But the book of Acts was a peculiar period when the Lord God was changing how the Truth is dispensed in the world. The Bible was being completed through the apostles and their associates. While it was, these special gifts and miracles were given to communicate God's endorsement of their message to those who heard them.

Well before the Apostles died, that period ended because the Bible was complete. From the time it was, none of the usual ways of communicating to men was necessary anymore and God ceased using them. That has been the case until today.

During the Tribulation, under the ministry of the two witnesses (Moses and Elijah) and the 144 000 Jews, some of these gifts will be given again because of the very special significance of that time.

LordReed:


Wait I don't get it, the bible is complete but Mark 16 :9 onwards is not part of the bible?

Ihedinobi3:

Please note my revision in the post.

Yes, the Bible is complete but Mark 16:9 onwards is not part of the Bible.

LordReed:


And how did that happen?

Ihedinobi3:

I explained in my revision.

The Bible has been copied many times by different people and many mistakes were made and some very foolish decisions like the one we are discussing were also taken. Someone thought that Mark ended too abruptly and thought to "complete it". That led to the addition there.

As I said, you will notice that much of the information put in there comes from different parts of the Bible so that it would all seem legit but that is the difference between the Word of God and man's own ideas. The net effect is the error that we are discussing now, among others.

LordReed:


And how do we know how many such revisionist insertions were made? That the bible is not utterly different from what it was originally intended to be?

Ihedinobi3:

The same way you can tell that one thing is not another. The Bible has a character. Anything that violates it is obviously not part of it even if that thing is written into the pages where the Bible is too. This is why for thousands of years believers have rejected the Apocrypha as part of the Bible.

LordReed:


But you acknowledged that the Mark addition is exactly how the bible would sound so how do we know there are not similar disgusted insertions?

Ihedinobi3:

I explained in my revision.

The Bible has been copied many times by different people and many mistakes were made and some very foolish decisions like the one we are discussing were also taken. Someone thought that Mark ended too abruptly and thought to "complete it". That led to the addition there.

As I said, you will notice that much of the information put in there comes from different parts of the Bible so that it would all seem legit but that is the difference between the Word of God and man's own ideas. The net effect is the error that we are discussing now, among others.

Ihedinobi3:

Where did I make this acknowledgement?

There are other such interpolations. They are all identifiable to those who want to know.

Ihedinobi3:

So, basically, you have no actual reason for dismissing God as the explanation of creation. Why again do I owe you any arguments for God, remind me?

1. Yes, in all those things you mentioned, God's righteous nature is shown. In a world full of rebellion against God, of course, God will punish rebellion and limit it with things like that. But God also has faithful subjects in the mix, so, for their sakes, He will provide escapes from the destroying nature of His agents of punishment. Medical science and technology can be one such escape.

2.Why again do I owe you any answers at all, remind me?

The world is evil, so evil things happen to it because of God's Justice. If they didn't, human beings would only wax worse and worse until they destroyed themselves by their own selves. So, even in Justice, God is Love.

I'm afraid I cannot see how any of this answers my question. Even if God did appear to people in the Bible to prove His Existence (and I am yet to see any proof of such a thing in your comments), I cannot see how His doing so means that He has to do so. It's a non sequitur as far as I can see.

So, why does He have to do so, dalaman? Is it only things that we can see that are true?

All I see here are more wild claims but no proofs. It was proofs I asked for, dalaman, not foot-stamping and tantrums.

Actually it is your own point that you just contradicted. If people are limited only to the traditions in which they are born as you claimed at first, then, Muslims and Hindus cannot become Christians nor can Christians become Muslims and Hindus. But evidently they do. So, where and into what circumstances anybody is born does not limit the efficacy of the Word of God at all.

I already explained how it is inconsistent. If Allah is a Single-Person Being, it makes no sense that He would create things in families and units (or groups) of individuals.

Your honesty here, although very long in coming, is refreshing.

Hinduism is proved false by the world around us because it rejects material existence. That was what I was saying.

Why do I owe you any "showing" of anything? I am happy to answer any, at least, seeming honest questions but I am not a dog that rolls over and plays dead when you say so.

1. About Pharaoh... God's part in hardening his heart was merely allowing him more room than usual to make a decision about God. That is, Pharaoh saw enough to be rightly and thoroughly terrified of God and cease resisting Him but he did not want to stop even though he was terrified so God gave him more ability than usual to make a decision. But rather than use the extra capacity to repent, he chose to defy God some more. That is normal to rebellious human beings. Those who hate God will only keep resisting Him with all the ability they have. Pharaoh hardened his own heart to a degree that was only possible because God allowed him even more opportunity to choose than is normally given to human beings. That was the meaning of "God hardened his heart".

2. Where does the Bible say any such thing?

3. As I said, nobody has ever lacked for anything that they have needed in order to believe in God if they want to. Nobody. If seeing miracles will make anyone believe, they will see them. If seeing visions will make them believe, they will see them. But it is foolishness to think that you will have visions and miracles if you insist on having God come to you on your terms. He does not owe anybody that. He is God and He commands everybody to repent or else. If you don't want to heed that command, the only thing that will ever make you submit to Him is when you stand before Him and see His Glory and realize that you simply cannot ever in an infinity of lifetimes defeat Him. The smallness of you compared to Him then will force you to your knees. But that would be because your free will has finally been destroyed. No miracle or vision will do that. And while every human being and angel will most definitely fall down and worship God in the end, not a single one who only does it because they no longer have a choice in the matter will be saved.

Although that is not part of the Bible (therefore I am under no obligation to defend or answer for it in any way), I will answer as if it is: where does it say there that any of that will make any unbeliever believe in God?

LordReed:

Ihedinobi3:

I explained in my revision.

The Bible has been copied many times by different people and many mistakes were made and some very foolish decisions like the one we are discussing were also taken. Someone thought that Mark ended too abruptly and thought to "complete it". That led to the addition there.

As I said, you will notice that much of the information put in there comes from different parts of the Bible so that it would all seem legit but that is the difference between the Word of God and man's own ideas. The net effect is the error that we are discussing now, among others.

Ihedinobi3:

How does anything in the above translate to an acknowledgement that that is how the Bible sounds? I said that the scribe borrowed things from different parts of the Bible to make his insertion seem legit. That means he thought that it would fit because he got much of the information from the Bible itself. But the way he used the information he borrowed only served to show that this was not anything that God said. That was exactly what I said in my post with my reference to the difference between God's Word and man's ideas. Did you not see it?

dalaman:


I said God is our ignorance. You are the one calming God remember, you said God created but yet you can not use God to explain anything about creation. How did God create the cells, what material did he use to create the human cell, which mechanism did he use to give them life? Use God alone and explain these things to me, or is your own God only used to explain empty stories and mythologies? I noticed if I ask you questions like this yu always claim that you don't owe me any explanations, but it's it's questions that relate to biblical mythologies you begin to write long tales explaining it away. . .How convinient. . You ate professing God so use God and explain to me how things came about. How did God create the human cell?

dalaman:
God's righteous nature is shown in the polio virus how? If God is using polio virus to punish people that it has failed because humans have eradicated polio in most part of the world. So that means humans are eliminating God's punishment. Medical science and technology are human inventions and have nothing to do with any God. So your claim here is empty and false.

dalaman:
Why make empty claims? You are the one saying creation explains God's nature. You are evening trying to use what we see in nature to explain God, you even said God uses diseases to punish people. That is false because people are conquering diseases. So according to your theory humanso are greater than God because they are conquering what he uses to punish them. Very funny. . .

dalaman:
Now you are trying to explain how God operates because you feel it's convinient. Later when you get hooked you'll start saying that you don't owe me any explanation. Funny you.

So a baby born with congenital diseases is God's justice because the baby did what? God is love but yet infects babies with congenital heart diseases or diseases like down syndrome that makes them mentally unstable all their lives because he is love? What kind of love is that? So a baby born with down syndrome is God's justice because the baby did what?

dalaman:
Because God wants people to believe in him and according to the bible he did so many wonders just to convince the people. It's funny that it's only God that you go gaga when people ask for physical proof of his existence. Remember that this said God we are told came and lived with men and went around preaching about himself by himself to men. If God can come down and live with men what stops himself from doing it now? Why did he have to come down and live with men according to stories? Because he knew it was important else he wouldn't have done that.

dalaman:
Jesus himself promised YOU the ability to do things greater than he did. If it's true you'll be doing those things. You will be a living example and witness to show that the biblentire is true. We won't be having this conversation if the bible is true. The promise willike be evident in your life and we will see it. But the fact that you can't do anything despite the promise says it's a lie. .

dalaman:
Studies have shown that the number of people that convert to other religions are so insignificant. Almost all people practice the religion of their parents. But which one is the word of God? Is it the bible? Koran? Verdes? They all claim they are word of God? How do we know which is true and which is false? How can you demonstrate that the Bible is true and the Koran false in reality?

dalaman:
Why won't it make sense that is what he wants? According to the Quran all Allah needs to make anything happen is just to say be and it will happen. He is also all knowing so him alone knows why he created things according to the Koran.

dalaman:
Hinduism rejects material existence according to who? Your lies? The Hindu Gods created material existence so how does it reject material existence?

dalaman:
Because that is the only objective way for me to know that you aren't making empty claims. You are the one making the claims. Show me one thing that Yahweh can do that Allah and Brahma can't.

dalaman:
If God can do it then, what's stopping him from doing it now? After all when he did the Elijah test he proved himself against the prophets of Baal. Why is it that all your God's actions are only in stories?

dalaman:
God hardernd his heart to allow him more room make a decision about God? That is a lie. You just made that up. According to the bible God hardened his heart so that he will act in a particular way. God according to the story already knew he will act accordingly after hardening his heart.

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. Exodus 9:12.

Nothing like giving him room to to make any decision like you lied.

dalaman:
When did any God appear to you personally and told you that he doesn't owe appearing to peeople personally? When did he tell you that? Why are you giving me your opinion of how you feel God should act? When did he tell you that? Now to free will those that claim God appears to them, what about their own freewill? Don't even Christians tell people to ask God to reveal himself to them? Didn't they know about free will before saying that?

dalaman:

It's from the Bible. The sings that will follow the believers is for what?