AMvanquish:


If they turn to academics only , and not willing to upgrade their qualification. Then the NUC order is in the right direction. They system cant favor others
and discriminate the rest.

Exactly!

bahaushe1:


It is not about the 'rigor' nor is it about 'patient treatment'. It is about NUC guidelines that stipulate that PhD is what is needed for teaching in Nigerian universities.

Guidelines?
What is the legal force of these guidelines?

0m0nnakoda:

You do not talk as if you went to university.
Try to get facts before forming opinions
Medicine as a university course is unique
It is A TRAINING and apprenticeship
THERE IS NOWHERE in the world where only PhDs Teach medical students

NO WHERE
There are doctors involved in research as you point out but how many are in the medical school and how many more doctors are not.
Medical research is not cheap and talking about research in Nigeria is a bad joke.
Where is the funding?
Medicine is a specialist course just like going to the NDA or a Pilot school.


Doctors are not stupid people, they are intelligent enough to do Phds but most do not rather they specialize.
If Phd was the way to go they would all do it.
There just are
Medicine is not about sitting passively receiving lectures but being able to help resuscitate a heart attack victim when he is brought in for urgent help.
Also even when teaching occurs it could be by a nurse or other professional who is neither a doctor nor a Phd


This proposal is stupid because it will close all ,I repeat all the medical schools in Nigeria.
It is unrealistic
Even at postgraduate level there is teaching and often it is by specialists not Phds

There is order those who want to be academic and professors do what they have to do

Medical students in the clinical years receive much of their teaching practically and also as TUTORIALS Which do not require Phds

Relax man....don’t make it sound like people are saying u guys aren’t bright enuf to do a PHD...no one is saying doctors are stupid.....

u keep shouting training, training, training....no matter how medicine as a course is training-inclined ...it is still at the end of the day a structured academic univeristy programme...it’s not pilot training school or a war college....

NUC is saying u don’t have an academic PhD, u shouldn’t lecture....I don’t think this is very hard..it’s not like all of u lecture anyways..if I might ask, how do u guys even get ur “professor” title...

danilmo:


No First degree holder lectures Medic..

all of them are residents or consultant or professors.. owk...

Ok....

allthingsgood:


Must u consult in a teaching hospital

its a TEACHING hospital for Gods sake!

What do u think goes on in teaching hospital...

u don't know and it's nt what u think..

meanwhile, the highest medical dons and gurus are the ogas in T.Hospital who teach in form of apprenticeship...

u think they hold chalk/marker like the academics professor s right.

yinchar:
What a bunch of illiterate medical doctors saying "PhD is cosmetics"

All over the world, a PhD or equivalent is required as a minimum qualification to join academic positions at lecturer level and above at any University.

A PhD exposes one to a narrower field but at greater depth and understanding.

Most medical doctors that are teaching our medical students are just holders of MBBS which is a Bachelors degree equivalent to having BTech or BSc in Engineering. However, with residency periods, we can subjectively agree/disagree its equivalent (but not) to Masters.

Irrespective of the aforementioned, to be a lecturer in a proper University you need to have a PhD, there is no shortcut about it.

MBBS isn't equivalent to other first degrees. Go and research how degrees are evaluated and assessed.

yinchar:
What a bunch of illiterate medical doctors saying "PhD is cosmetics"

All over the world, a PhD or equivalent is required as a minimum qualification to join academic positions at lecturer level and above at any University.

A PhD exposes one to a narrower field but at greater depth and understanding.

Most medical doctors that are teaching our medical students are just holders of MBBS which is a Bachelors degree equivalent to having BTech or BSc in Engineering. However, with residency periods, we can subjectively agree/disagree its equivalent (but not) to Masters.

Irrespective of the aforementioned, to be a lecturer in a proper University you need to have a PhD, there is no shortcut about it.

This is how people publish ignorance online-
MBBS is a seven year rigorous program in Nigeria, it is equivalent to your Master's in any other area. Just like in GermanTechnical Universities, you do both a Bachelor's and a Master's combined continuously. In other countries, you only study Medicine after a Bachelor's in another related area such a Biology or Zoology.


Medicine and Surgery is unique, in the sense that illnesses are regional. So a doctor trained in Canada cannot practice in Nigeria, and vice versa.
Medical Mistakes cost lives, so in medicine experience counts way more than knowledge. You prefer a doctor that has actually removed appendicitis successfully to one that is said to know and have studied everything about appendicitis. This is simply for our own value of our lives as doctors are not perfect.

Ph.D is a research position, cornered on experimentation and new theories. How can you make Ph.D a must and prerequisite for an area that prioritises experience and hands on practice. You want them to all come up with new theories or what?
Whoever came up with that policy of Ph.D in NUC is an uneducated fool and is not in the medical field. For a medical doctor, a Residency where he watches and learns from senior Doctors how to save life is more important than a PhD thesis. If you doubt me, put up to our own body for PhD experiments.

Further, the country pays doctors pea nuts, they are all leaving for UK, Dubai,Canada and Australia. Now NUC wants to make it difficult to even train new ones, who exactly will treat our illneses in about a decade?
You can't pay Junior Doctors beffitting wages, but you now want PhDs.

1StopRudeness:


Oh !! The western world is now your Standard.. cos it’s convince the for your argument..but If those gay apologist come and say Nigeria should pass gay laws because western world does the same .. we will start screaming Nigeria is different from US.....people will start quoting bible they don’t read....
Already u guys have the Dr title...but it’s not academic....this isn't too hard to get....it’s a title for a physician, someone authorized on paper and training to treat other humans...just like a vet is called a Dr cos he’s learned and trained to treat animals... but no matter how trainning-compliant medicine is.. it has been structured as an academic programme at the end of the day...
If I might ask how do u guys get ur professor title...??if there’s no structure and order in these things...I believe there will be some form of abuse...mayb I don’t see it from ur angle

If not Western world which place should be the standard in the study of WESTERN medicine? Is it your village in Rumuola or Igbokoda?


You know nothing, and you know not that you know nothing.

obi4eze:


Maybe NUC actually goofed by allowing them lecture and become Professors without PhD in the past but it seems they realized their error.

The consultants want to continue becoming Professors without PhD. I laugh! Do they actually know the rigors of becoming a PhD holder?
They are not bigger than NUC that regulates them so if NUC says they cant become Professors without PhD then they should either join their colleagues who go on to acquire PhD or get out.

Do you know the rigours in becoming a doctor

afrodoc2:


If not Western world which place should be the standard in the study of WESTERN medicine? Is it your village in Rumuola or Igbokoda?


You know nothing, and you no not that you know nothing.

I understand ur type......peace man

1StopRudeness:


Relax man....don’t make it sound like people are saying u guys aren’t bright enuf to do a PHD...no one is saying doctors are stupid.....

u keep shouting training, training, training....no matter how medicine as a course is training-inclined ...it is still at the end of the day a structured academic univeristy programme...it’s not pilot training school or a war college....

NUC is saying u don’t have an academic PhD, u shouldn’t lecture....I don’t think this is very hard..it’s not like all of u lecture anyways..if I might ask, how do u guys even get ur “professor” title...

Go and read your write up again,
Why do you think it is called a Medical College or School of Medicine. This is a field that is more specialized than pilot training or military practice.
Why do you think a Medical Doctor is said to start up a practice when they start working. Ever heard or you friends that studied Education, Chemistry or Engineering starting up a practice.

Men, the quality of intellectual output in this country is really appalling, and the main Architects at NUC think they can solve it by making Ph.D every where.

useless people what have they achieved with their phds,? even the man with nepa bill certificate had done more for nigeria than they could ever do, rotten egg heads.

danilmo:


What do u think goes on in teaching hospital...

u don't know and it's nt what u think..

meanwhile, the highest medical dons and gurus are the ogas in T.Hospital who teach in form of apprenticeship...

u think they hold chalk/marker like the academics professor s right.

shift abeg

u that knows it so well yet remain unqualified

si ebea puo biko

1StopRudeness:


What are u saying?? what has ur specialization gotta do with fulfilling the requirement of carrying out novel, independent research and documenting ur findings.....
Specialize all u want, train other doctors on the job all u want ..no one is stopping you from doing that .
You are claiming doctors in other countries are given honorary lecturership..is this an automatic title after graduation from medical school...
In this abroad you are talking Do u know there are doctors that don’t just practice only but also engage in research like molecular biologist to find cure, to develop disease biomarkers both at cell, animal model and clinical level...??

the NUC is saying u need a PhD to lecture undergraduate students and u are saying ur first degree should be enuf because ur course is a training course...that’s how u guys suddenly dash urself professor of medicine.... there should be order to these things...

Bottom line, NUC is wrong!!!
You can look for novel, independent research and documenting ur findings, in Engineering, Chemistry, Education, etc. Not in Medicine where human lives are directly concerned.

Medicine and Surgery is area based on sustaining what is known to work. Any experimentation is done at seems length and subjected to years of tests before being applied to human beings. What has novel experimentation got to do with teaching new Doctors how lives were saved in the past?

1StopRudeness:


Relax man....don’t make it sound like people are saying u guys aren’t bright enuf to do a PHD...no one is saying doctors are stupid.....

u keep shouting training, training, training....no matter how medicine as a course is training-inclined ...it is still at the end of the day a structured academic univeristy programme...it’s not pilot training school or a war college....

NUC is saying u don’t have an academic PhD, u shouldn’t lecture....I don’t think this is very hard..it’s not like all of u lecture anyways..if I might ask, how do u guys even get ur “professor” title...

Once again yo talk quite foolishly

You say medicine is a STRUCTURED UNIVERSITY PROGRAMME
Indeed it has been for decades so why is there a "crisis" in 2020?

What has changed?
Nigeria has been producing doctors for decades TILL NOW

This is not about whether anyone is smart enough to do a Phd or not but whether NUC's proposal amounts to a change and if so whether the NUC has the authority to wake up one day and announce a change ie what is the law
Secondly whether if they have such authority whether doctors as a group have the clout to resist

Finally even if it was a good idea are there enough Phds to stop closing medical schools en masse because no medical school in Nigeria will survive.


You are trying to pretend about what the status quo is

In medical schools today the status quo is that Fellowships from the Post Graduate Medical College are entitled to employment at 1 step higher than Phds

What the NUC appears to be doing is to wake up one day and derecognize Fellowships of a College established by law

doctors are arrogant,go and get your PhD or u leave lecturing job

GerogeI:

Go and read your write up again,
Why do you think it is called a Medical College or School of Medicine. This is a field that is more specialized than pilot training or military practice.
Why do you think a Medical Doctor is said to start up a practice when they start working. Ever head or you friends that studied Education, Chemistry or Engineering starting up a practice.

Men, the quality of intellectual output in this country is really appalling, and the main Architects at NUC think they can solve it by making Ph.D every where.

You ddnt answer me....all of u refuse to answer ...how do U guys get your professor title..??

If u don’t want medicine to be subject to the principles of an academic programme...then it shouldn’t be part of a standard university programme...It should just have its own college like a pilot training school or NDA where u just dive into practicals/training but last I checked it’s still a course Obtained from the 4walls of a university

1StopRudeness:


I understand ur type......peace man

You should be banned from using the word UNDERSTAND.
Peace be unto you too..

0m0nnakoda:

Once again yo talk quite foolishly

You say medicine is a STRUCTURED UNIVERSITY PROGRAMME
Indeed it has been for decades so why is there a "crisis" in 2020?

What has changed?
Nigeria has been producing doctors for decades TILL NOW

This is not about whether anyone is smart enough to do a Phd or not but whether NUC's proposal amounts to a change and if so whether the NUC has the authority to wake up one day and announce a change ie what is the law
Secondly whether if they have such authority whether doctors as a group have the clout to resist

Finally even if it was a good idea are there enough Phds to stop closing medical schools en masse because no medical school in Nigeria will survive.


You are trying to pretend about what the status quo is

In medical schools today the status quo is that Fellowships from the Post Graduate Medical College are entitled to employment at 1 step higher than Phds

What the NUC appears to be doing is to wake up one day and derecognize Fellowships of a College established by law

U haven’t answered the question “how do u guys become professors”

GerogeI:

Go and read your write up again,
Why do you think it is called a Medical College or School of Medicine. This is a field that is more specialized than pilot training or military practice.
Why do you think a Medical Doctor is said to start up a practice when they start working. Ever heard or you friends that studied Education, Chemistry or Engineering starting up a practice.

Men, the quality of intellectual output in this country is really appalling, and the main Architects at NUC think they can solve it by making Ph.D every where.

It is helpful to see this as a turf war between interest groups.
On the one hand doctors who previously have been entitled to Lecturer jobs with Fellowships and others who required a Phd
To a large extent it can be debated that a lot of teaching in medical schools is not lecturing but training.
Since a lot of what is imparted is skill acquisition.

Clinical students travel to Yaba Left,igbobi Orthopaedics or Lagos Island maternity for postings.

They will not meet a single Phd there.

What happens if Consultants in those places disengage from medical students

If only you know what it takes to be a consultant,then you will know that getting a Ph.D is unnecessary and far below the residency fellowship program that makes the consultant who he/she is. Consultancy is not a title earned but a product of rigorous 6-8 years academic/professional training. It's plain ignorance and politics that NUC and the rest are displaying. Please keep urging NUC on while doctors continue to move out to other countries. Las las who go suffer am?.

obi4eze:


Maybe NUC actually goofed by allowing them lecture and become Professors without PhD in the past but it seems they realized their error.

The consultants want to continue becoming Professors without PhD. I laugh! Do they actually know the rigors of becoming a PhD holder?
They are not bigger than NUC that regulates them so if NUC says they cant become Professors without PhD then they should either join their colleagues who go on to acquire PhD or get out.

1StopRudeness:


U haven’t answered the question “how do u guys become professors”

basic medical/Dental Degrees(equivalent to Masters degree), 6 years residency plus 3 years fellowship=9
Then numerous published articles in both local and international journals.
This is exactly what is practiced abroad. In America, using basic medical/dental degree to apply for a lecturing job(Faculty Job) qualifies you for the position of Assistant Professor. Are you cleared now?

blowjohn:


It's still half the same thing.
Cos one half of the doctors we have are already into teaching.
They fail to understand that teaching in medical school especially after 300 level is more of what the students see.
So far av not come across inefficient teaching methods from any doctor, cos in medical school, even if a doctor's style of teaching is archaic or something, u have more than 2 doctors teaching u that course.

Doctors in academics should go do PhD. Forget story!

GerogeI:


Bottom line, NUC is wrong!!!
You can look for novel, independent research and documenting ur findings, in Engineering, Chemistry, Education, etc. Not in Medicine where human lives are directly concerned.

Medicine and Surgery is area based on sustaining what is known to work. Any experimentation is done at seems length and subjected to years of tests before being applied to human beings. What has novel experimentation got to do with teaching new Doctors how lives were saved in the past?

You are funny man...independent research isn’t for medicine ?? Medicine is based on what is known to work??
So research is only about cellular level or mouse model Experimenting?? And later you will say Africa is backward....

From the area of saying NUC is wrong...if there’s anything good that will come out of this, there will be some order...cos I still wanna know how u people get ur professor title

1StopRudeness:


U haven’t answered the question “how do u guys become professors”

In the best universities in the world the format is basically the same.

1) Medical degree, then

2) Specialization in your field which would include clinical research, then

3) Taking a leadership role in clinical teaching of medical students, mentoring junior colleagues during their residency i.e specialization training, then

3) Publication of your work in recognized outlets e.g reputable journals or books.

PhD is not compulsory in clinical medicine. It is only important in pre-clinical courses without established residency programs like Biochemistry, Physiology, Microbiology e.t.c . In clinical fields it is inferior to specialization.......WORLDWIDE.

See doctors all over this thread, as if they are doing surgical operation.....

NUC have spoken, if you are a medical doctor and wants to lecture is the University go and obtain your PhD, it's not by force.

For those medical doctors that are not that smart enough to do PhD or value their fellowship that much, they should continue practising their medicine.

How can you compare fellowship to PhD (known and Unknown)

We not talking about "equivalence". The question is that is it PhD degree? Simple! If you like do fellowship for 50 years.

@1StopRudeness Are all these justifications really coming from our medical doctors!!!

afrodoc2:


In the best universities in the world the format is basically the same.

1) Medical degree, then

2) Specialization in your field which would include clinical research, then

3) Taking a leadership role in clinical teaching of medical students, mentoring junior colleagues during their residency i.e specialization training, then

3) Publication of your work in recognized outlets e.g reputable journals or books.

PhD is not compulsory in clinical medicine. It is only important in pre-clinical courses without established residency programs like Biochemistry, Physiology, Microbiology e.t.c . In clinical fields it is inferior to specialization.......WORLDWIDE.

But u guys keep saying number 2 isn’t feasible in Nigeria....because I know many medical professor with little or no clinical research to their name..
Meaning there’s a part of these above criteria that isn’t or totally fulfilled..Hence, there’s abuse somewhere or non-standardization
if u guys are not subject to any form of educational system that will handle the these criterias,i.e a medical degree ( atleast u guys all get ur degree from a university not the NMA), several clinical research, and publications.....at some point, anyone can claim professor.....

obi4eze:


Maybe NUC actually goofed by allowing them lecture and become Professors without PhD in the past but it seems they realized their error.

The consultants want to continue becoming Professors without PhD. I laugh! Do they actually know the rigors of becoming a PhD holder?
They are not bigger than NUC that regulates them so if NUC says they cant become Professors without PhD then they should either join their colleagues who go on to acquire PhD or get out.

What is this one saying. The fellowship certificate that a consultant holds is far superior than a PHD.

Before you can become a consultant in the medical field, you will have to train for 3 years. Then you go and write your part 1 exams. After passing your part 1 exam, you train for another 3 years, in which you must submit your dissertation and sit for another exam called part 2 exam. After passing your part 2 exam, you become a fellow (consultant, for easy understanding). That means, for a doctor to become a consultant, you must have spent a minimum of 6 years in training (including writing papers). Minimum I said, because in some areas you spend 7 years or more.

How many years do you spend to get your PhD?

Let me stop here. But don't ever equate lecturing in the medical field and other fields because lecturing in medical field requires clinical experience which you don't need your PhD to get.

I don't expect you to understand. This matter is deeper than you think

yinchar:
See doctors all over this thread, as if they are doing surgical operation.....

NUC have spoken, if you are a medical doctor and wants to lecture is the University go and obtain your PhD, it's not by force.

For those medical doctors that are not that smart enough to do PhD or value their fellowship that much, they should continue practising their medicine.

How can you compare fellowship to PhD (known and Unknown)

We not talking about "equivalence". The question is that is it PhD degree? Simple! If you like do fellowship for 50 years.

@1StopRudeness Are all these justifications really coming from our medical doctors!!!

Keep consoling yourself.


The status quo is that
a Phd is employed as Lecturer 2

A doctor with Fellowship is employed as Lecturer 1

That is how it has always been and continue to be.
In clinical medicine

Fellowships are higher than Phds

yinchar:
See doctors all over this thread, as if they are doing surgical operation.....

NUC have spoken, if you are a medical doctor and wants to lecture is the University go and obtain your PhD, it's not by force.

For those medical doctors that are not that smart enough to do PhD or value their fellowship that much, they should continue practising their medicine.

How can you compare fellowship to PhD (known and Unknown)

We not talking about "equivalence". The question is that is it PhD degree? Simple! If you like do fellowship for 50 years.

@1StopRudeness Are all these justifications really coming from our medical doctors!!!

I really don’t know, it’s a faceless forum... anyone can be a doctor here...it’s allowed.
one of them even said research isn’t needed in the field of medicine so PhD isn’t applicable to them....my intended response to him would have been really hurtful ...so I changed my mind

0m0nnakoda:

Keep consoling yourself.


The status quo is that
a Phd is employed as Lecturer 2

A doctor with Fellowship is employed as Lecturer 1

That is how it has always been and continue to be.
In clinical medicine

Fellowships are higher than Phds

A PhD holder isn’t a lecturer 2 ooooo....

danilmo:


PHD in pathology kwanu??

seems u don't know what it takes to b a pathologist .. lol..

lemme tell u.. Pathology is divided into 4. a pathologist is a consultant, before u b a consultant pathologist, u most have ur MBBS degree, do ur residency for 5+ years before u become a pathologist, and these are the ones that tech medics..

OK??..

Oga I've seen pathologists with PhD though not in Nigeria
You'll see Danilmo, O. MD, PHD.

The NUC just adopted the American format, not because you are a consultant you'll start to lecture Medical students. If you don't have a PhD please stay in the clinic.