David you are wasting time with these advocates of a plagiarised, revisionist religion tailored to achieve arab cultural supremacy.

They had to steal Abraham and co from the bible and surgically modify and attach them to Mo' to give their stories some credence.

Adam built the Ka'aba my foot. going around a stupid stone every year as a sign of religious devotion eh? Idol worship Mo stylee   

You are so funny. I can't stop laughing whenever I remember this statement of yours.

Not only did they worship black stone, they (Islamic people) also go and stone the devil ( The devil they did not see) !

My black brothers and sisters who practise this Islamic religion put on this skimpy arabic dresses and the men refuses to shave their beards.

We know its all Idolatry. That is the reason why they go on rampage whenver anyone criticises their religion.

I have always ask these Islamic people that : Can anyone (Human being ) physically defend God Almighty ? Why not call on your God ( Sorry allah) to defend himself and prove himself to his creatures.

May God help us !!!

Lol. . . @focused,

focused:

I have always ask these Islamic people that : Can anyone (Human being ) physically defend God Almighty ? Why not call on your God ( Sorry allah) to defend himself and prove himself to his creatures.

It's not 'Allah' that they are trying to defend in reality. The real figure that they try to "defend" is Muhammad.

Why do Muslims not show as much reverence for any of the prophets that they claim Islam recognizes? Afterall, Muhammad himself claimed that he was not even better than Jonah - and people have castigated Jonah till the fish were so embarrassed! Yet, Muslim reaction towards any other prophets from the more than 124,000 prophets of Islam is a mere shrug of the shoulders.

many thanks for all the enumeration.

Can anyone confidently confirm whats in the Ka'abba?

There's nothing in the Kaaba.

Its just a symbol of unity.

We face the kaaba to pray, so as not to cause confusion.

You can imagine what will happen ,if someone is facing north and am facing east while praying.

mdsocks:

There's nothing in the Kaaba.

Its just a symbol of unity.

We face the kaaba to pray, so as not to cause confusion.

You can imagine what will happen ,if someone is facing north and am facing east while praying.

I tried to imagine. I couldn't. What will heppen?

Confusion my dear.


Am facing north and you are facing south.


Try and reason with that.

There's nothing in the Kaaba.

YOu are not saying the truth.

There is an edible stone in it

Imagine people travel that far only to go and be eating stone

Last time i checked God was not stationary. He is Omnipresent. He is everywhere. It don't matter where you're facing; He hears you. I don't know what kind of God you serve sha. he only hears in one direction.

@lafile

Last time i checked God was not stationary. He is Omnipresent. He is everywhere. It don't matter where you're facing; He hears you. I don't know what kind of God you serve sha. he only hears in one direction.

When will you up and posting childish rejoinder?

@ dafidixone
While kissing that stone one of the first 4 caliphs said the words[b] that this stone cant harm me or cant bless me but i am kissing it because i saw the prophet kissing it, it all shows that there is nothing inside kaaba , and Muslims dont worship it.[/b]

Imagine people travel that far only to go and be eating stone

Ignorance,surely is a disease.

What they go there to do is for hajj.

If you might need a breakdown of what hajj means ,i will help you with that

mdsocks:

@ dafidixone
While kissing that stone one of the first 4 caliphs said the words[b] that this stone can't harm me or can't bless me but i am kissing it because i saw the prophet kissing it, it all shows that there is nothing inside kaaba , and Muslims don't worship it.[/b]

if that is not idol worship then pls wake me up. The significance of a stone is simply that the prophet kissed it?
What about the wells that "prophet" Abraham built? Is any muslim planning a pilgrimage to that well anytime soon?

mdsocks:

Ignorance,surely is a disease.

What they go there to do is for hajj.

If you might need a breakdown of what hajj means ,i will help you with that

What then is the purpose of the hajj? To go and see the sights in Saudi Arabia?

if that is not idol worship then please wake me up. The significance of a stone is simply that the prophet kissed it?
What about the wells that "prophet" Abraham built? Is any muslim planning a pilgrimage to that well anytime soon?

David, we don't just fly around.

We do things as ordered in the Holy Quran.

What then is the purpose of the hajj?

Good question.

Hajj literally means to travel (i.e., towards God) and it also means an effort to dominate something (the self, in this connection). Conventionally this term is translated as 'pilgrimage,' although this far from gives the exact significance of the word Hajj. This is the third of the religious duties of a Muslim. It is obligatory on every adult, man or woman, to go once in his or her lifetime to Mecca in order to perform there the great Effort for annihilating the ego (fana), i.e., assimilating one's self with the will of God. Those who do not possess the material means of travel, are exempted from it.

You can read the complete article here.

http://muslim-canada.org/hajj.htm

davidylan:

What then is the purpose of the hajj? To go and see the sights in Saudi Arabia?

and to acquire those fake copper coverings on their canines and parade them as "gold teeth"
and stone the devil at the wall and get a ram sacrificed to allah to cleanse their sins like Aladura people
The festival ashura is coming up,where Shittes cut themselves on the head,neck and backs with knives and bleed profusely for allah.
This maybe the sixth pillar of Islam.

back to the kaabah,who knows which kind juju dey inside,it is afterall black in color.

mdsocks:

David, we don't just fly around.

We do things as ordered in the Holy Quran.

Good question.

Hajj literally means to travel (i.e., towards God) and it also means an effort to dominate something (the self, in this connection). Conventionally this term is translated as 'pilgrimage,' although this far from gives the exact significance of the word Hajj. This is the third of the religious duties of a Muslim. It is obligatory on every adult, man or woman, to go once in his or her lifetime to Mecca in order to perform there the great Effort for annihilating the ego (fana), i.e., assimilating one's self with the will of God. Those who do not possess the material means of travel, are exempted from it.

You can read the complete article here.

http://muslim-canada.org/hajj.htm

It may interest you to note that Muhammad's pagan quraish tribe made pilgrimages to mecca to worship allah.his daughters and 359 other gods and those idols remained in that shrine you face until much later.
And until recently,a ram, was slaughtered on the kabah,now it is done behind the scenes.
Islam is "glorified paganism"
Facing a shrine and looking for the moon are classical paganistic tendencies.

[b]My God is everywhere.
Allah is limited by direction and the poor fellow doesn't even hear any language besides Arabic and you with an accent,tough luck,there are no interpreters available to him.
Try talking to him with unwashed genitals,he throws the "prayers" towards Islamabad.
face the East while defecating,it nullifies all the prayers you ever made
don't bow in unison and in crooked lines,he sends a jinn after you
Wipe your backside with your right hand, there's no telling,you may get 'used virgins' in jannat [/b]and they tell us allah is Jehovah God ?

I really hope most muslims don't lose too much, before they realise the deceit of islam and the truth of Christ.

I pray God help them , see the truth and light despite the bondage of the devil!

mdsocks:

David, we don't just fly around.

We do things as ordered in the Holy Quran.

where in the quran were u ordered to go on pilgrimage to mecca? Oya tell us.

mdsocks:

Good question.

Hajj literally means to travel (i.e., towards God) and it also means an effort to dominate something (the self, in this connection). Conventionally this term is translated as 'pilgrimage,' although this far from gives the exact significance of the word Hajj. This is the third of the religious duties of a Muslim. It is obligatory on every adult, man or woman, to go once in his or her lifetime to Mecca in order to perform there the great Effort for annihilating the ego (fana), i.e., assimilating one's self with the will of God. Those who do not possess the material means of travel, are exempted from it.

You can read the complete article here.

http://muslim-canada.org/hajj.htm

After hemming and hawing even you have no idea what the hajj is all about . . . you have to go reference a website. Its just like me giving you a website to go and read on the reason why Christ died on the cross. With my eyes closed i will take the next 2 hrs to answer that question.

I read through ur rambling and i still cant see a single spiritual benefit for the hajj. If indeed the hajj was so critical to the islamic faith then what happens to those who are too poor to travel? Will they miss the islamic heaven?
Is allah only available in mecca that you NEED to go there to "assimilate one's self with the will of allah"?

Can you urself see the emptiness of that which u practice so blindly?

You can continue your ramblings,


" In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures <Qur'an Al-Imran 3:97>

After hemming and hawing even you have no idea what the hajj is all about . . . you have to go reference a website. Its just like me giving you a website to go and read on the reason why Christ died on the cross. With my eyes closed i will take the next 2 hrs to answer that question.

I read through your rambling and i still can't see a single spiritual benefit for the hajj. If indeed the hajj was so critical to the islamic faith then what happens to those who are too poor to travel? Will they miss the islamic heaven?
Is allah only available in mecca that you NEED to go there to "assimilate one's self with the will of allah"?

Can you yourself see the emptiness of that which u practice so blindly?

A forum is not suitable to post all what Hajj is about.

How many people would read long articles to the end?

If you need a complete reading ,follow the link.


Ok?

I read through your rambling and i still can't see a single spiritual benefit for the hajj. If indeed the hajj was so critical to the islamic faith then what happens to those who are too poor to travel? Will they miss the islamic heaven?

Its an act to strengthen your faith, if you are poor to go to ecca. Then, attend atleast 20 good Jummah and the reward is the same as Hajj.

Pls lets not move from the level of intellectual discourse.
God bless.

mdsocks:

A forum is not suitable to post all what Hajj is about.

How many people would read long articles to the end?

Another deceitful cop-out. If you truly understood the very meaning and relevance of the hajj you wont need to go plagiarise another full length article from a website. We dont need a novel on all the hajj is about, we just need a few cogent points which you have exposed yourself to be ignorant about. Continue hiding behind ur fingers.

mdsocks:

Its an act to strengthen your faith, if you are poor to go to ecca. Then, attend atleast 20 good Jummah and the reward is the same as Hajj.

What is a good jummah and why at least 20? Why not 40 or 100?

mdsocks:

" In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures <Qur'an Al-Imran 3:97>

here is the problem with this vague and incoherent "verse" . . . what does it mean by "station of abraham"? The Kaaba? What of the wells of Abraham? Are they not part of his station too?
The verse talks of pilgrimage, the question is pilgrimage to where?

Have you been able to prove the lie that abraham had anything to do with the kaaba?

@mdsocks,

How body?

I just get one kweshun to ask:

WHY does anyone have to face the direction of a black stone in order for his or her prayers to be pleasing to 'Allah'?

, me , me , me,

The answer is that: Because the devil or is demons can only be at one place and at one time, hence the devil needs everbody to pay to him and bow down to him in unison and one accord (or one toyota ).

There is no problem (IMHO) with facing a particular direction for prayers. I am in no position to dispute the fact or spiritual meaning of prophets facing a particular direction to pray - as did Daniel:

Daniel 6:10
Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house;
and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled
upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God,
as he did aforetime.


Also, during the dedication prayer of Solomon, the idea of turning in prayer towards a particular direction was not strange:

1 Kings 8:44-45
If thy people go out to battle against their enemy, whithersoever thou shalt send them,
and shall pray unto the LORD toward the city which thou hast chosen, and toward the
house that I have built for thy name: Then hear thou in heaven their prayer and their
supplication, and maintain their cause.

These are issues that are clearly presented in the Bible. However, my question was about turning towards a BLACK STONE to pray - that is the core issue here, I suppose.

If we look closely at 1 Kings 8:44-45, we see two things highlighted:

~ (a) the people were to turn towards the CITY that God had chosen

~ (b) the people were to tunr towards the HOUSE that Solomon had built for His Name

When I started investigating my former religion and started reading the Bible for myself (to reject the duplicity of the ulema - Muslim scholars), I understood that the Biblical scriptures in those verses had never been changed in history!

Now my mind and heart were alert, and the questions that I had to settle were these:

1. Was the CITY in that verse the same as MECCA?

Answer: NO! Solomon did not refer to Mecca.

2. Was the HOUSE the same as the Kaa'ba?

Answer: NO! Solomon did not refer to Kaa'ba.

I stopped listening to the Islamic LIE that the Kaa'ba was the original house of God - built originally by ADAM. . . (or as others claim through Islamic "legend" built originally by Ishmael and Abraham!

None of the Biblical prophets were associated with the Kaa'ba - and even historians know that Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem is NOT the same spot as the idol house of Kaa'ba in Mecca!!

This is the reason why nwando pointed out that the sudden change in Muhammad's idea of changing from formerly facing Jerusalem towards facing Mecca is a FRAUD. There is nothing "divine" or revelatory about it other than Muhammad's sudden hatred for Jews and Christians!!

God welcomes the prayers of those who receive His love through Jesus Christ - regardless of where they are, or where they face!

pilgrim.1:

There is no problem (IMHO) with facing a particular direction for prayers. I am in no position to dispute the fact or spiritual meaning of prophets facing a particular direction to pray - as did Daniel:

An important point to note however is that at the point Daniel and the jews prayed facing Jerusalem Christ had not yet been crucified, God still dwelt in the temple at Jerusalem.

After his death and resurrection we have NO record of any of the apostles demanding that everyone pray facing Jerusalem, infact Christ said:

John 4 : 19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This then begs the question, do muslims pray towards the kaaba because Allah is there?

@davidylan,

You're absolutely spot on! Thank you for helping to round off the edges in my submission, as my rejoinder would not be complete without pointing out what you did from John 4.

mdsocks face[i]east[/i], babs787 face north, what happens? Is Muhammadu Allah a mono-directional god

allah might get confused

Quote
this allah sef . . . how did he expect the Isoko man or the bushman of Kenya to read the quran since it cannot be translated from arabic?
Every muslim HAS to pray in arabic - tower of babel all over again.


You know, English is not everbody's official language, am sure you learnt english or didnt you? Its funny but the different translation of the bible is the cause of the religious conflicts we have today. Original bible was in aramic right? then translated by a german right? o.k without saying too much let us assume the pope who was feeding the german the scripts gave him a complete script (which is soooo impossible). we all know people have different ways of translation, for example eku ijoko in youruba can be welldone, welldone for sitting down, keep sitting down, it would be translated differently by different individuals. Same way in french mon cherie would be translated as my beautiful one, my love, my dear. Also in Hausa language sannu da zuwa can be translated as welcome, sorry for coming, welcome and come. All this transformation removes the original context. IF truth be told we all know the hipocritical nature of humans, the way we all swithch context to back up our attitudes or misdeeds. In this world today, the American anglicans have accepted homosexualism as christianity and in cote " no where in the bible that it is written that homosexualism is a sin" . My people isnt this enough that a lot has been changed in the holy book. But honestly in the Quran no letter absolutely no letter or alphabet has been change till this day. the arabic language is soo unique that if an i is changed to e it could change the whole meaning. Lets not be biased, i would rather learn aramic and get the original bible than read the edited version as we all see today the way things,constitution, law and all that is changed.

@shawn123,

This is thread I was referring to just now in my reply to yours in the other thread. Relax. . . in 5 minutes I'll help you dress warm on your bloviates.

Enjoy.

@shawn123,

If you had tried to be reasonable in your post, we should have borne with you. But let me walk you through yours to show you why you need to be truly sorry for Islam before attempting to talk down Christianity and the Bible.

shawn123:

You know, English is not everbody's official language, am sure you learnt english or didnt you?

Arabic is not everybody's official language either. Earlier, we asked the question: "So, people must simply have to first learn Arabic in order to be able to PRAY to 'Allah'?" - and since we asked that question, no Muslim has come forward to proffer a reasonable answer. Asking people to learn Arabic before they can pray to Allah is spiritual confusion and hypocrisy.

shawn123:

Its funny but the different translation of the bible is the cause of the religious conflicts we have today.

The cause of religious conflicts in the world today is the direct result of the fraud in the Qur'an, especially Muhammad's denials of the Biblical narratives.

There are many different translations of the Qur'an as well, all saying DIFFERENT things in so many verses, did you know that? Yet, all these different translations have given rise to different ideologies in Islam for which Muslims have been at each other's throats.

shawn123:

Original bible was in aramic right?

The manuscripts of the Bible (OT and NT) were in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

shawn123:

then translated by a german right?

The manuscripts of the Bible have been translated by various scholars from many countries.

You may also want to acquaint yourself with Gerd Rüdiger Puin, indeed a German scholar reouted as the world's foremost authority on Qur'anic paleography.

shawn123:

o.k without saying too much let us assume the pope who was feeding the german the scripts gave him a complete script (which is soooo impossible).

Since you were only "assuming", your ideas are simply a joke. We all know as well that the Qur'an in the hands of Muslims today is not the original script; nor is it complete in its present form.

Muslims who often try to play the dubious game of attacking the Bible as an incomplete book should try and remember that the Qur'an today is the political redaction of the third Caliph, Uthman - who ordered that all the other manuscripts be burnt after his committee finished editing the Qur'an. Not only so, even the Hadiths clearly inform us without bias that a few verses of the Qur'an were lost, forgotten and cancelled while Muhammad was still alive; as well that after his death, Muslims had various Arabic versions of the Qur'an in their possession - and this was a threat to the entire Muslim world in their day.

@shawn123,

shawn123:

we all know people have different ways of translation, for example eku ijoko in youruba can be welldone, welldone for sitting down, keep sitting down, it would be translated differently by different individuals. Same way in french mon cherie would be translated as my beautiful one, my love, my dear. Also in Hausa language sannu da zuwa can be translated as welcome, sorry for coming, welcome and come. All this transformation removes the original context.

True - transformation removes context, and the result is pretext. But that is precisely what Muslim translators have done with the Qur'an. There is no single translation of the Qur'an today without a deliberate pretext of its translators; and in most cases, these pretexts have been adjudged by Muslims themselves to be misleading in their Islamic tenets. You would be amazed at the number of verses in the Qur'an that various translators have torn out of their intended contexts and wrapped around the translators' premedidated ideologies.

shawn123:

IF truth be told we all know the hipocritical nature of humans, the way we all swithch context to back up our attitudes or misdeeds.

Absolutely true - that is why we have seen how Muslims debating from the Bible have torn verses out of their contexts to back up their hypocritical attitudes and misdeeds!

shawn123:

In this world today, the American anglicans have accepted homosexualism as christianity and in cote " no where in the bible that it is written that homosexualism is a sin". My people isnt this enough that a lot has been changed in the holy book.

The sad homsexual tendencies of some wayward Anglican leaders does not "prove" that anything was changed in the Holy Book - the Bible. It only proves the Biblical FACT that man's godless nature only tends toward sin, especially under a religious garb (Romans 1:21).

The same thing is true of Muslim clerics who are homosexuals. Often, many Muslims are not aware of the fact that there are millions of gays among their own brethren - and most of them are Muslim clerics. No, I'm not going to post the ugly details (at least, not at this time - unless Muslims are rascally enough to dare me).

Yet, you would be shocked out of your socks to note that these GAY Muslim clerics see homosexuality as a positive blessing from 'Allah', and they base their convictions on the Qur'an! Should we then apply the same rule of thumb as yours - that this should be enough to hold that a lot has been changed in the Qur'an?

@shawn123,

shawn123:

But honestly in the Quran no letter absolutely no letter or alphabet has been change till this day.

My respects, but that is a hugely FALSE statement that blinds itself to the bare FACTS! There are indeed various Arabic versions of the Qur'an with alterations and avulsions - both in letter/alphabet and characters. Muslims in their malicious arguments and accusations against the Bible have often asked the hypocritic question or similar: "Is the Bible 100% complete?" My answer often times is that they drop their hypocrisies and then we can enter a genuine debate on the issue.

I think it is about time that this endlessly repeated and recycled hypocritic false assumption be exposed. Although I do not have time enough at this moment to walk you through clear CHANGES in the Qur'an, here is something that is just a tip of the iceberg for your consideration - from a non-Christian source, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an_in_the_House_of_Manuscript_in_Sana%27a]Wikipedia[/url]:

[list]
The Sana'a manuscripts—found in Yemen in 1972—represent the oldest extent version of the Quran, dated to the latter half of the 7th century. In it are textual variations from the standard Quran that is presently read throughout the world.

<<snip>>

Von Bothmer, however, in 1997 shot 35,000 microfilm pictures of the fragments, and has brought the pictures back to Germany. The texts will soon be scrutinized and the findings published freely - a prospect that pleases Puin. "So many Muslims have this belief that everything between the two covers of the Qur'an is Allah's unaltered word. They like to quote the textual work that shows that the Bible has a history and did not fall straight out of the sky, but until now the Qur'an has been out of this discussion. The only way to break through this wall is to prove that the Qur'an has a history too. The Sana'a fragments will help us accomplish this."[/list]


For now, let's just wait and see further discussions on this subject as to the fact that there are different Qur'ans. It's not my style to divulge everything all at once; but at the appropriate time and thread, this issue will be scrutinized, and it would be interesting to see your reaction following the exposé.

shawn123:

the arabic language is soo unique that if an i is changed to e it could change the whole meaning.

Even with the acclaimed uniqueness of the Arabic language, it is clear that Muslims themselves are the ones who changed the texts of the Qur'an (which we shall see later on); and for all that, whatever is left in the Qur'an you read today is said to be meaningless as soon as it is translated into another language. If a book loses its meaning on being translated into another language, then it has no meaning at all in its original language since no one would understand what you are trying to cover.

shawn123:

Lets not be biased, i would rather learn aramic and get the original bible than read the edited version as we all see today the way things,constitution, law and all that is changed.

Please look again at your last line - you have already exhibited "bias" while asking that others should not be biased! If you were open to fairness, we would not be reading your prejudice of trying to "rather" learn Aramaic instead of reading the Bible in any translation of more than 2,300 languages available today!