Ihedinobi:

Lol. I'm yet to hear what challenges you mean. Funny thing is that when you reopened this conversation with me I'd forgotten that I'd already answered the question that you were repeating.

You can go on imagining those challenges, if you wish. I don't much care.

Translation: I'm going to wallow in my own bs regardless of what the bible actually says. Ok.

Ihedinobi: Hi TV It's wonderful to hear from you again.

How far? I trust you are journeying well.

Ihedinobi: Briefly, God meant marriage for man. The proper definition of man is that which is in the Image of God. The only One Whom we know is that Image is the Man Jesus Christ. And Christians are all men and women who are in Him. Thus, marriage is meant for Christians alone.

This still sounds somewhat forced, kind of assertive imho. It begs an endless number of questions. Especially in real life. Please think about this. Further, are we saying that any scripture which makes reference to a "wife" - not specific people i.e. Rachael wife of Jacob - is only speaking to believers?

Ihedinobi: However, His rain falls on the just and the unjust. He will acknowledge (perhaps not the best word to use) alliances made by unbelievers and make of them the same demand that He makes of alliances between believers: a holy seed. That which fails to meet the demand will be uprooted and thrown into the fire as a lie.

Same here. So many questions; what demands, how can unbelievers match believers, let alone grasp and meet the demands of God.

I'd like something clearly underpinning this claim.

Best
TV

m.k.o2005:

Concerning marriage bein made for mankind,i asked again,what was the original intention for God making man in his own image and likeness ? May be to be disobedient and become God's enemy !

I don't think any one is making this claim.

m.k.o2005:

Concerning believers having certain mores to follow,wouldn't it hav been perfect if all were believers so we just follow and not to have certain mores to follow ?

This point doesn't buttress your claim, as one day we will all be, but guess what? marriage will no longer be, having been done away with.

m.k.o2005:

All perfect gift come from God and marriage is not an exception !God intended for man kind to be perfect and received one of the perfect gifts(marriage)from HIM. BUT WHAT HAPPENED ? Did God withdrew the gift of marriage from HIS creation ? NO! Because HE knows there will be a plan B to bring mankind back into HIS embrace !

Gods concept and institution of marriage remains perfect - I argue that fact day in and day out here - it's men and women that fall short. And as above, with full restoration, marriage will become a moot point.

m.k.o2005:

When you say there were no believers at that time,i began to wonder who Adam/Eve were while in the garden before the deception of the devil(serpent)Don't you know that there was an instruction regarding do's and dont's ? They were keeping off the fruits of those trees becos God gave an instruction and THEY OBEYED-making them BELIEVERS. When the serpent came,deceived them,they ate from that tree,thereby DISOBEYING GOD-making the UNBELIEVERS ! So why are you saying that there were no believers then ? Do you think God placed curses on them for OBEYING HIM ? NO,it was because of their DISOBEDIENCE.The relationship with God was immediately severed ! Belief was in view hence the blessing of the marriage union !

Please re-read, I said no such thing. And made the point that as marriage was given before unbelief became an issue, why force the point that marriage is not meant for unbelievers.

m.k.o2005:

Concerning what sin -disobedience did to marriage,it brought curses(hard labour in child bearing & hard labour in surviving ! Just to mention a few) into the marriage BUT left the initial blessings of God(fruitfulness,subdue and the rest)in the marraige.

I humbly disagree. Sin did not affect marriage, it affected mankind and their ability to correctly apprehend it. Marriage remained the perfect gift - as you stated - bestowed by God.

m.k.o2005:

I repeat,i am not saying that unbelievers should not marry,neither am i saying that [b]GOD SAID [/b]they shouldn't,all i'm saying is that the original plan of God for marriage was for mankind who were made to be in the image & likeness of God to be OBEDIENT(believers)of their maker,GOD !

How about God did not have a plan for marriage, he had a plan for mankind. Marriage was something given to mankind. You appear to elevate what was made for man over man. The gift over whom it was given too.

m.k.o2005:
God help us

Amen

Best
TV

TV01:
How far? I trust you are journeying well.

I am, my dear brother, by His tender mercies. I hope you are too.

This still sounds somewhat forced, kind of assertive imho. It begs an endless number of questions. Especially in real life. Please think about this. Further, are we saying that any scripture which makes reference to a "wife" - not specific people i.e. Rachael wife of Jacob - is only speaking to believers?

Pardon me, but I still do not get your objection. Is there something false in what I said? Or are there closer meanings for the concepts I mentioned than the ones I offered?

About your question, we are saying nothing of the sort. The issue is for whom marriage is meant. In fact, in the next portion of my post which you addressed below, I made clear that even though marriage is meant for Christians alone, non-Christians are allowed to share in it, in a manner of speaking.

Same here. So many questions; what demands, how can unbelievers match believers, let alone grasp and meet the demands of God.

I'd like something clearly underpinning this claim.

Best
TV

I don't understand.

Mark 10
New King James Version (NKJV)
Marriage and Divorce

10 Then He arose from there and came to the region of Judea by the other side of the Jordan. And multitudes gathered to Him again, and as He was accustomed, He taught them again.

2 The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.

3 And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”

4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”

5 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 [b]Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

The Master himself did not attribute marriage to any group of people. Here He tells us quite plainly marriage is meant for man and woman, your "salvation condition" not withstanding. The simple requirement for marriage is male and female which He stated quite plainly.

If the Master the very Cornerstone of salvation when speaking of such an important topic did not credit marriage to the state of one's soul whence the argument?

Lord_Reed:

The Master himself did not attribute marriage to any group of people. Here He tells us quite plainly marriage is meant for man and woman, your "salvation condition" not withstanding. The simple requirement for marriage is male and female which He stated quite plainly.

If the Master the very Cornerstone of salvation when speaking of such an important topic did not credit marriage to the state of one's soul whence the argument?

You guys like to take people back ! How about the ones the Master gave a nod to,do we follow HIM ?

God help us

Ihedinobi:
I made clear that even though marriage is meant for Christians alone, non-Christians are allowed to share in it, in a manner of speaking.

This is a contradiction - it cannot be meant for Christians alone if others can partake/share in it. God cannot and will not endorse a counterfeit.

Marriage is meant for man - all men - since all men are created in God's image. Granted we cannot fully 're-attain' the fullness of that image till we accept Christ, but fundamentally, all human beings possess the ability to 're-attain' it, unlike say another species like the goats or cows who cannot, no matter how hard they try or want to.

Unless a man/woman was not created by God, marriage is meant for him/her.

m.k.o2005:

You guys like to take people back ! How about the ones the Master gave a nod to,do we follow HIM ?

God help us

Taking you back how? We are talking about marriage so I don't know which "ones" you are referring to.

Lord_Reed:

Taking you back how? We are talking about marriage so I don't know which "ones" you are referring to.

Should we start all over ?

God help us

m.k.o2005:

Should we start all over ?

God help us

Have I posted this scripture before?

Ihedinobi:
I am, my dear brother, by His tender mercies. I hope you are too.

Pardon me, but I still do not get your objection. Is there something false in what I said? Or are there closer meanings for the concepts I mentioned than the ones I offered?

About your question, we are saying nothing of the sort. The issue is for whom marriage is meant. In fact, in the next portion of my post which you addressed below, I made clear that even though marriage is meant for Christians alone, non-Christians are allowed to share in it, in a manner of speaking.

I don't understand.

If what you are postulating is that only believers can truly fulfill Gods purpose for marriage, then I won't quibble. And that is not to say I would totally agree, but I could better understand that view. That does not mean that marriage is not "meant for all mankind", or that unbelievers cannot have blissful/blessed unions.

I guess the "objection" is that "Marriage" scripturally prescribed as good for man(kind) and instituted as male/female. Any other slant is an assertion. There is no where it states that is is predicated on belief or a requirement for salvation.

I just need to see a succinct scripturally based outline.


TV

TV01:


If what you are postulating is that only believers can truly fulfill Gods purpose for marriage, then I won't quibble. And that is not to say I would totally agree, but I could better understand that view. That does not mean that marriage is not "meant for all mankind", or that unbelievers cannot have blissful/blessed unions.

I guess the "objection" is that "Marriage" scripturally prescribed as good for man(kind) and instituted as male/female. Any other slant is an assertion. There is no where it states that is is predicated on belief or a requirement for salvation.

I just need to see a succinct scripturally based outline.


TV

Marriage is not a requirement for salvation and never had it been ! The questions to be answered before we finally reach a consensus on this issue if we truly wish to are below :

1.Why was Adam & Eve made ?
2.Who were Adam & Eve before the commandment of marriage was given by God ?
3.Did Adam & Eve fulfill their cause as planned by God in the garden of Eden before their eviction?

If we can [b]sincerely[/b]answer the above questions,i think there will be no need to continue following this thread !
God help us

m.k.o2005:

Marriage is not a requirement for salvation and never had it been ! The questions to be answered before we finally reach a consensus on this issue if we truly wish to are below :

1.Why was Adam & Eve made ?
2.Who were Adam & Eve before the commandment of marriage was given by God ?
3.Did Adam & Eve fulfill their cause as planned by God in the garden of Eden before their eviction?

If we can [b]sincerely[/b]answer the above questions,i think there will be no need to continue following this thread !
God help us

1. Adam and Eve were created to be progenitors of God's family on Earth.

2. The statement of marriage came immediately after Eve's creation so that question is moot however it can be said that Adam and Eve were "co-fellowshipers" or worshippers of God.

3. No, Adam and Eve did not fulfill God's design for them as they aborted the plan due to disobedience.

So what point are you driving at?

debosky:

This is a contradiction - it cannot be meant for Christians alone if others can partake/share in it. God cannot and will not endorse a counterfeit.

I don't believe I even implied that God endorses the marriage of unbelievers. I explained what I meant by pointing to Jesus's statement about God's rain falling on the just and the unjust. I am not very much inclined to detailing my position all over again, that's why I hoped that that statement would be enough.

Marriage is meant for man - all men - since all men are created in God's image.

What then is the difference between Adam and Christ?

Granted we cannot fully 're-attain' the fullness of that image till we accept Christ, but fundamentally, all human beings possess the ability to 're-attain' it, unlike say another species like the goats or cows who cannot, no matter how hard they try or want to.

"Re-attain"? I don't think you have the right word. Nevertheless, only in Christ are we truly or, in your own words,"fully" human. Until we are, we cannot rightly claim that which is meant for the fully human, can we? I mean, you just said that marriage is meant for that which is in God's image which sounds just like saying that it is meant for those in Christ the Image of the Invisible God. Unless of course you consider man's current state identifiable with the Image of God.

Unless a man/woman was not created by God, marriage is meant for him/her.

Ok. In pretty much the same way, true humanity is meant for every man and woman and only in that condition is any man and woman entitled to anything that God has provided for human beings.

TV01:


If what you are postulating is that only believers can truly fulfill Gods purpose for marriage, then I won't quibble. And that is not to say I would totally agree, but I could better understand that view. That does not mean that marriage is not "meant for all mankind", or that unbelievers cannot have blissful/blessed unions.

I guess the "objection" is that "Marriage" scripturally prescribed as good for man(kind) and instituted as male/female. Any other slant is an assertion. There is no where it states that is is predicated on belief or a requirement for salvation.

I just need to see a succinct scripturally based outline.


TV

My brother, I've given my argument in exhaustive detail already. I did as you requested and gave a brief summary. I am not arguing whether or not unbelievers can have blissful/blessed unions. I've maintained that the relationship was designed for Christians and I've given a clear reason why I think so. The following is the scriptural layout of my argument:

1. Marriage was designed for man

2. Man is that which is in the Image of God

3. Adam's children are not in that Image, they're damaged

4. Christ is the Image of the Invisible God

5. Christians are those in the Image of the Invisible God

6. Marriage was designed for Christians.


TV, I'm confident that you know the Scriptures involved. I'm unable to produce them now because I'm a bit rushed. I will offer them later for the benefit of other readers without as much scholarship as you, sir.

Lord_Reed:

1. Adam and Eve were created to be progenitors of God's family on Earth.

2. The statement of marriage came immediately after Eve's creation so that question is moot however it can be said that Adam and Eve were "co-fellowshipers" or worshippers of God.

3. No, Adam and Eve did not fulfill God's design for them as they aborted the plan due to disobedience.

So what point are you driving at?

1. Adam and Eve were created to be progenitors of God's family on Earth.-It is true that we are progenitors of God's family here on earth amongst other things.But not created to be but already are becos HE (God)created us ! Isaiah 43:7 made it clear that man was created for the glory of God ! Now the big question is this; Will God be glorified in our disobedience and sin ? The answer is No ! We saw God's stand on this when man disobeyed HIM and how HE got annoyed with man and place a curse on man !So,man was created for the glory of God and this is evident in righteousness and obedience!
2. The statement of marriage came immediately after Eve's creation so that question is moot however it can be said that Adam and Eve were "co-fellowshipers" or worshippers of God.-They were co-fellowshippers or worshippers because they believed i guess !This was evident in their adherence to the instructions/commandment of God before they were tempted by the devil.Since the statement of marriage came immediately after Eve's creation like u rightly put it & the statement of marriage did not come after they disobeyed God,this goes a long way to tell us that these co-fellowshippers or worshippers like you called them,were never encouraged to be married or received the blessings of marriage beos they were sinners or disobedient but becos they were obedient hence bein co-fellowshippers or worshippers of God !

3.No, Adam and Eve did not fulfill God's design for them as they aborted the plan due to disobedience.- If Adam had disobeyed God before the making of Eve,do you think Eve would had come through Adam ? If you say yes,this means that God has got no problem with sin when committed by man and would had allowed them to remain in the garden after they sinned after all HE doesn't care.But if you say no,then that goes again to show us that if Adam & Eve had sinned before the promises and blessings of marriage,God wouldn't hav commanded and blessed marriage. God designed marriage for HIS very own to HIS own glory.However,the command and promises therein had already gone forth before the fall of man & God never takeS back HIS gift to mankind.-Romans 11:29 ''For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.''

GOD HELP US

m.k.o2005:

1. Adam and Eve were created to be progenitors of God's family on Earth.-It is true that we are progenitors of God's family here on earth amongst other things.But not created to be but already are becos HE (God)created us ! Isaiah 43:7 made it clear that man was created for the glory of God ! Now the big question is this; Will God be glorified in our disobedience and sin ? The answer is No ! We saw God's stand on this when man disobeyed HIM and how HE got annoyed with man and place a curse on man !So,man was created for the glory of God and this is evident in righteousness and obedience!
2. The statement of marriage came immediately after Eve's creation so that question is moot however it can be said that Adam and Eve were "co-fellowshipers" or worshippers of God.-They were co-fellowshippers or worshippers because they believed i guess !This was evident in their adherence to the instructions/commandment of God before they were tempted by the devil.Since the statement of marriage came immediately after Eve's creation like u rightly put it & the statement of marriage did not come after they disobeyed God,this goes a long way to tell us that these co-fellowshippers or worshippers like you called them,were never encouraged to be married or received the blessings of marriage beos they were sinners or disobedient but becos they were obedient hence bein co-fellowshippers or worshippers of God !

3.No, Adam and Eve did not fulfill God's design for them as they aborted the plan due to disobedience.- If Adam had disobeyed God before the making of Eve,do you think Eve would had come through Adam ? If you say yes,this means that God has got no problem with sin when committed by man and would had allowed them to remain in the garden after they sinned after all HE doesn't care.But if you say no,then that goes again to show us that if Adam & Eve had sinned before the promises and blessings of marriage,God wouldn't hav commanded and blessed marriage. God designed marriage for HIS very own to HIS own glory.However,the command and promises therein had already gone forth before the fall of man & God never takeS back HIS gift to mankind.-Romans 11:29 ''For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.''

GOD HELP US

Listen the title of this thread is not "marriage was designed for believers" it is "Marriage Is Meant For Believers Only" which is present tense as in NOW. We all agree that God's plan for man crashed becuase of disobedience but you and others are saying the things God gave to mankind are not for mankind if they are not saved which is a contradiction in itself as those gifts are evidently with mankind NOW.

To reiterate if you are saying "marriage was designed for believers" I agree in totality but if you are saying "Marriage Is Meant For Believers Only" then I believe you are denying the very evidence before you.

Also these things will not count at the judgement: who and if you married, how many children you had, what type of food you ate, how many lands, houses cars and so on you had, how many places you visited in the world. All these things God has freely given to all of mankind but do not add or subtract from salvation.

Lord_Reed:

Listen the title of this thread is not "marriage was designed for believers" it is "Marriage Is Meant For Believers Only" which is present tense as in NOW. We all agree that God's plan for man crashed becuase of disobedience but you and others are saying the things God gave to mankind are not for mankind if they are not saved which is a contradiction in itself as those gifts are evidently with mankind NOW.

To reiterate if you are saying "marriage was designed for believers" I agree in totality but if you are saying "Marriage Is Meant For Believers Only" then I believe you are denying the very evidence before you.

Also these things will not count at the judgement: who and if you married, how many children you had, what type of food you ate, how many lands, houses cars and so on you had, how many places you visited in the world. All these things God has freely given to all of mankind but do not add or subtract from salvation.

Thank you so very much Lord_reed for the correction ! I started this thread but i can admit/agree in totality that the thread should have been titled; 'marriage was designed for believers[/b]and not the controversial '[b]marriage is meant for believers only ! Thank God there is some one(persons) who understands what i have been trying to explain. And i also want to believe that 'flesh and blood'did not reveal it to you but the holy spirit did reveal to you what i meant or was meant to buttress !& HE(Holy spirit) helped me to see reasons with your correction as regards the title of the tread not minding what or how anyone feels here !
Thank u lord_reel and may [b]THE GOOD LORD[/b]bless you !
God bless us all

Ihedinobi:
My brother, I've given my argument in exhaustive detail already. I did as you requested and gave a brief summary. I am not arguing whether or not unbelievers can have blissful/blessed unions. I've maintained that the relationship was designed for Christians and I've given a clear reason why I think so. The following is the scriptural layout of my argument:

I grasp what you "maintain", I'm just not sure I get it? I simply see marriage as something bestowed by God creationally. To bless mankind without distinction. It's as summarised below right?

Ihedinobi:
1. Marriage was designed for man

2. Man is that which is in the Image of God

3. Adam's children are not in that Image, they're damaged

4. Christ is the Image of the Invisible God

5. Christians are those in the Image of the Invisible God

6. Marriage was designed for Christians.

So as marriage was given to man prior to the fall, it is only for those that have been restored to that state?

I believe in end-to-end doctrine. This means not just the spirituality or theory, but also the practical outworking.

Would it be fair to say then that any marriage between two "restored" Christians cannot fail or be barren. Or conversely, if a marriage fails or is barren it cannot therefore be between two Christian? What if it contains just one believer? The bible even talks about one believing spouse sanctifying the other and making their seed holy.

I honestly don't get it. And can think of a number of questions that make this view jar with other parts of the scriptural narrative.

Ihedinobi:
TV, I'm confident that you know the Scriptures involved. I'm unable to produce them now because I'm a bit rushed. I will offer them later for the benefit of other readers without as much scholarship as you, sir.

I've joined the discussion late, but I would appreciate the outline and inferences clearly detailed. In your own time of course. Appreciate how busy we all are. Indeed,I may not know the scriptures, have the same take on them or indeed been blessed with the same revelation. But I'm all ears.

Best
TV

Lord_Reed:
To reiterate if you are saying "marriage was designed for believers" I agree in totality but if you are saying "Marriage Is Meant For Believers Only" then I believe you are denying the very evidence before you.

I'm not even sure I can agree the "designed for believers claim"

At best it's a standoff. One can argue that only believers existed when it was instituted, therefore it was designed for believers. But equally, one can argue that it's designed for mankind. Or even that belief was not in view, a condition or a prerequisite, and therefore does not come into play.

God saw man as lonely and needing a suitable helpmeet. It had narry to do with belief, holiness or righteousness, or salvation.

Although God given, it's an earthly institution to meet a human need. It's why there will be no marriage in heaven.

Marriage was designed for mankind imho. But I stand to be corrected if it can be shown otherwise.


Best
TV

TV01:

I'm not even sure I can agree the "designed for believers claim"

At best it's a standoff. One can argue that only believers existed when it was instituted, therefore it was designed for believers. But equally, one can argue that it's designed for mankind. Or even that belief was not in view, a condition or a prerequisite, and therefore does not come into play.

God saw man as lonely and needing a suitable helpmeet. It had narry to do with belief, holiness or righteousness, or salvation.

Although God given, it's an earthly institution to meet a human need. It's why there will be no marriage in heaven.

Marriage was designed for mankind imho. But I stand to be corrected if it can be shown otherwise.


Best
TV

I agree because it is similar to the powers of the enemy. His powers were designed for Angels but even in his fallen state he still has them. Marriage was designed for God's family on Earth but its a gift which like other God's gifts doesn't get taken away from those it was bestowed upon.