frosbel: I was shocked in another thread when . . .

And then our Trinitarian brother said Jesus existed as the second part of the trinity before he came to earth.

This brought fear and tears to my eyes. . . .

2. If Jesus Christ existed as second person in a Trinity, then the whole purpose of the gospel is defeated because it means that the word of GOD did not become flesh and this in my opinion is wrong.


Brethren, what is so hard in accepting that God begat a Son in the flesh through his Word , this Son scarified his life for you and me through the Spirit , died , rose again in bodly form and now has the keys of hades and death to give eternal life through the Spirit to all who will place their faith in him.

Why are we following the doctrines of men through the teachings of our institutions.

Consider this , please do, let us not be part of the apostate church .

thanks.

Enigma:

Is this taking things to a whole new level?

Could you please clarify what exactly you mean? Especially:

- when did Jesus first come into existence or began to be?
- was it when He was conceived of the Holy Spirit or when He was born?
- or did He exist before He was conceived and born?

Clarification will help to understand you and not misrepresent what you are trying to say. Thanks.

frosbel:

It was when he was conceived of the Holy Spirit through the WORD of GOD.

Enigma:

Thanks.

Kyrie Eleison.

- God ( Father ) conceived GOD ( Son ) through GOD ( Spirit )

Ihedinobi: . . . . @Enigma, what does the expression mean?

Ihedinobi: Awesome, Frosbel. This is getting very bad, brother. Very very bad. Jesus was not pre-existent? I am just tired

Enigma:

It means "Lord have mercy"!

frosbel:

A thousand years of 'church' apostasy does not take 1 week to debunk

In John 5:30 Jesus repeats again, "I can of mine own self do nothing." Could Jesus do anything of Himself alone? He said He could of His own self do nothing.

Did God ever do anything by Himself? In Isaiah 44:24 it is said of God, "I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself."

Many say that Jesus helped to create the earth or that He was the Creator, but here the speaker said, "I stretched forth the heavens alone and spread abroad the earth by myself." Jesus said, "I can of mine own self do nothing." The disciples of Christ knew full well that Jesus was not God, neither any part of a trinity Godhead, but was the Son of God, begotten by the Spirit and power of God according to the Word of God born of the virgin Mary. Born - really born - not incarnated, but born!

I would like to say here that the words "pre-existent" , "trinity" , and "incarnate" are nowhere found in the Bible. They are terms put to use by the satanic host to deceive ministers and churchgoers and to rob them of ever knowing the real Son of God. This is what Peter had reference to in 2 Peter 2:1 when he said, "There shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

Friends, do you deny the Lord that bought you? Do you know which Lord bought you? It could not be God Himself, for God cannot die. It cannot be a trinity Christ, for He would be equal with God. Since God cannot die, neither could a trinity Christ. The Scriptures declare that Christ died for our sins. (1 Cor. 15:3) According to the Scriptures, the Son of God, born of a virgin, brought into existence by the power of God, being anointed with life from God, power and authority from God, died for our sins, thus giving His entire life for us. But, thanks be to God, He raised Him up from the dead.

The world, by accepting the pre-existent theory and the doctrine of the trinity, deny the flesh and bones that God caused to be born to be our Savior. Dear friends, if you deny the flesh and bones that God caused to come forth to life from Mary's womb, you deny the Lord that bought you. This is what Jesus had reference to when He said that many false Christs would arise and deceive, not a few, but many. Today more people believe and pay tribute to and glorify and pray to a false Christ, who never did die for them, than they that accept a flesh-and-bones Savior who died on Calvary. The false Christ is the pre-existent Christ, the trinity Christ, the Christ that is said to be God Himself. The true Christ is the Son of the living God and the anointed of Him.

In John 6:57 we find, "As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father." Notice that the living Father sent the Son. Could one God be equal with another when one was sent of the other? Notice also Jesus said, "I live by [and through] the Father." Without the Father, Jesus never would have existed and had life.

In John 7:16 Jesus said, "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." If Jesus were God Himself or a part of a trinity God, how could He say, "My doctrine is not mine" ? If Jesus were equal to the Father and the doctrine He was giving was not His, d[b]oes Jesus have a doctrine just as equal and powerful and strong as the doctrine of His Father?[/b] And does the Holy Spirit also have another doctrine? Would their doctrines be the same or different?

Jesus gave us to know that He had nothing to do with the origin of the doctrines which He spoke. They originated with the Father, and the Son merely spoke the doctrines of the Father. In John 7:28 Jesus said, "Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not." If Jesus were God Himself, would He not have had to send Himself? He said, "I am not come of myself." Friend, did you or I come of ourself? We had nothing to do with it. We did not come into existence by our will, for we had no will, no life, no intellect, until we were born. The same is true of Christ. Jesus did not come of Himself, but God sent Him. If there were three equal Gods, why would one God send another one of the other two to die? If one could send one of the other two to die, would not the one that had power to send be greater?

In John 8:28 Jesus said, "I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." When one God has to be taught of another God, the God that does the teaching would be the greater. If Jesus were co-equal with God and co-existent with Him, He would not have to be taught from the Father.

Again, Jesus said in John 8:42, "I proceed forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." Jesus told us in John 10:18, "I have power to lay it [my life] down, and I have power to take it again. " Where did He get this power? He said, "This commandment have I received of my Father." When one person gives another person commandments, one is supreme to the other. Jesus said in John 10:29, "My Father ... is greater than all."

Friends, do you not understand that Jesus is the anointed flesh and bones which God brought forth to life by His Holy Spirit, His own power, and that there is no other Savior of truth who could die for us? First John 2:22 says, "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Anointed One?" Friend, if you contend that Jesus is God Himself, or a part of a trinity God, or a pre-existent Jesus, with power to create before He was born, then He could never be anointed by the Father.

Understand this, "He is antichrist that denieth the Father and Son." The Father is God and Jesus Christ is His Son, born of the virgin by the power of God. They are two separate and different beings. Anyone who denies this is antichrist. Which side are you on?

May God help you to believe in His Son, even as the Ethiopian eunuch, who said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Source

Enigma:

Is this taking things to a whole new level?

Could you please clarify what exactly you mean? Especially:

- when did Jesus first come into existence or began to be?
- was it when He was conceived of the Holy Spirit or when He was born?
- or did He exist before He was conceived and born?

Clarification will help to understand you and not misrepresent what you are trying to say. Thanks.

frosbel: But how can you use the analogy of one Molecule of water to explain the trinity , surely that is a desperate attempt

aletheia:
H₂O is one substance and yet to us on occasion is
1) ice (solid),
2) water (liquid - it's most common presentation) and,
3) steam (gas)

To the uneducated, this would appear to be 3 different substances, but we know it to be all H₂O.

Similarly to pagans like you, God would appear to be three, but to His Children, He is One.


God has revealed Himself to man in a progressive fashion, making his attributes known to us. He has been active throughout history as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit even right from Genesis 1.1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:1-3)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Joh 1:14)

Your confusion arises from thinking Spirit is like Flesh. Will you now reject the witness of John.
1. The Word was with God shows that the Word is somehow separate from God.
2. The Word was God shows that the Word is God
Indeed it was a mystery only revealed in Jesus that the Word is God and yet separate and distinct, something clearly shown in the Revelation of Jesus:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (Rev 4:2-3) From Ezekiel, we know that what John saw here is "the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD" as Isaiah also saw. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Rev 5:6)
3. The Word was made flesh - God was made flesh.

And so. . .
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6)

Notice the parallelism of the verse above similar to others that occur throughout the scripture:
1. . . there is but one God, the Father cf. one Lord Jesus Christ
2. of whom are all things cf. by whom are all things
3. and we in him cf. and we by him

frosbel:
But you are using all sorts to explain the trinity , no ?

My question is how you can ever call 3 Distinct persons as ONE, even though Jesus called God ONE !

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." - Mark 12:29

3=3 and 1=1

frosbel:
I am non-denominational , so your tag will not stick

I confess that the messiah came in the Flesh,begotten of Father God through his Spirit, while you confess he came in the spirit and not in the flesh, so judge for yourself who is anti-christ.

frosbel:
Pharisee you, you are blinded to the truth and leading others into a ditch but trying to make a simple concept of GOD Being ONE into a mathematical complexity, you will not let others enter into the kingdom .

I am:
1. A Son
2. A Husband
3. A Father

So let's see. . . Me = A Son + A Husband + A Father = One Man. Does Me = A Son + A Husband + A Father = 3 Men. . .?
You see your absurdity in trying to use arithmetic to explain God? You are using the wrong frame of reference. Might as well try to pour the ocean into a cup. Futility.

frosbel:
You said he was a spirit as the last Adam, while the first Adam was a MAN.

frosbel:
So how many spirits do we now have according to you

3 , right ? plus the Father and Son making it 5 gods you believe in .

So says, Frosbel, the Muslim wannabe.

H₂O is one substance and yet to us on occasion is
1) ice (solid),
2) water (liquid - it's most common presentation) and,
3) steam (gas)

To the uneducated, this would appear to be 3 different substances, but we know it to be all H₂O.

Similarly to pagans like you, God would appear to be three, but to His Children, He is One.


God has revealed Himself to man in a progressive fashion, making his attributes known to us. He has been active throughout history as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit even right from Genesis 1.1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:1-3)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Joh 1:14)

Your confusion arises from thinking Spirit is like Flesh. Will you now reject the witness of John.
1. The Word was with God shows that the Word is somehow separate from God.
2. The Word was God shows that the Word is God
Indeed it was a mystery only revealed in Jesus that the Word is God and yet separate and distinct, something clearly shown in the Revelation of Jesus:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (Rev 4:2-3) From Ezekiel, we know that what John saw here is "the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD" as Isaiah also saw. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Rev 5:6)
3. The Word was made flesh - God was made flesh.

And so. . .
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6)

Notice the parallelism of the verse above similar to others that occur throughout the scripture:
1. . . there is but one God, the Father cf. one Lord Jesus Christ
2. of whom are all things cf. by whom are all things
3. and we in him cf. and we by him

Synonymous parallelism. A line strengthens, develop, reinforces or repeat the line before it.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find;
knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth;
and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (KJV)

Isaiah 44:22a

I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,

your sins like the morning mist.(NIV)

frosbel:
The Spirit of God is GOD , his presence in the world and filling of the universe, not seperate from him, how on earth can you separate your spirit from your body and call it a different being ?

frosbel:
So what did Jesus Christ exist as prior to coming to earth

frosbel:
If our Lord overshadowed Mary with the Spirit and Christ was Spirit are we not talking of 2 spirits here ?

frosbel: Who is the beginning and end of God's creation , the Alpha and Omega, the very Word of GOD.

frosbel:
This is the KJV cult translation, the correct translation as all other bibles state from the more reliable manuscripts is :

"6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son." - 1 John 5:6-9

frosbel: The SON came to reveal the father and he did that 1000% very well. He is the express IMAGE ( not PERSON ) of GOD.

aletheia: Why follow frosbel on his endless circular journeys that end in nowhere. . .there will be nothing said here that hasn't been said on this other thread, for example:

---

frosbel:

To suggest otherwise is to try and explain the impossible.

Which is :

- God ( Father ) conceived GOD ( Son ) through GOD ( Spirit )

A number of problems with this.

1. God is a Spirit, so this means automatically that 3 Spirits were involved.
2. God is supposedly one but 3 persons , So one person was missing after this exercise.


- When Jesus was born as a baby , he had GOD in him, which is to say the second person of the trinity was in a baby, and yet this same baby knew NOTHING , had to learn the scriptures, had to be nurtured, had to be anointed by the so called Third person of the Trinity.


It all starts to get messy from here.

Let us stay simple with the pure and unadulterated scripture.

Mr_Anony:
frosbel, would you be willing to have a phone conversation concerning this?

frosbel:

We can setup a room on Pal talk and invite all and sundry.

Giving out my number is an issue , a security issue.

Throughout my time on Nairaland I have only ever spoken to Goshen and that was because he gave me his number , which I dialled anonymously.

frosbel:
Here comes the Christian 'snider' if there is such a word.
I tried to read your comment, but got tired at the first line.
Many , in these last days seem to be operating under an anti-Christ spirit.
God help us.
"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible." - Matthew 24:24

Mr_Anony:
cool, I can give you my number if you want. By the way, what's pal?

aletheia:

But of course, you would get tired at the very first line. Such lazy scholarship is revealed by your penchant for cut-and-paste jobs instead of disciplined and prayerful Bible study.

I can see you are still hurting. . .eeyah sorry. Try to address the issues you yourself raised. Hypocrite. Always quick to call others names. Yet feeling aggrieved when they return the compliment.

frosbel:

hurting

Wow !! You lost me with this one, anyway I don't blame you , Nigerian mentality on display

aletheia:
Now this is an interesting reaction! Frosbel seems to have lost his "cool" just because aletheia commented.

And just what exactly is "Nigerian mentality"? The sort of mentality displayed by frosbel who himself is a Nigerian? You keep uttering nonsense. I repeat: Try to address the issues you yourself raised. . .and stop demonstrating your innate insecurity. . .the other day you claimed you were being persecuted on this anonymous online forum. What absurdity.

haibe:
If jesus didnt ressurect bodily, how can thomas touch him?
There is a spiritual body that Jesus ressurected in, not a corrupt body(flesh and blood used to mean sinful or corrupt body), thats the same body that saints will be ressurected in, the corruptible body puts on incorruptible.

frosbel:
Wow !! You lost me with this one, anyway I don't blame you , Nigerian mentality on display

frosbel:
I might be a Nigerian in 'skin' but I AM very much English in mentality and reaction. !

btw, notice the bolded words above , it's me not someone else !!

aletheia:


Your underlined statement above reveals quite alot about your state of mind. You sly suggest that having an "English mentality" is innately superior or better than having a "Nigerian mentality"? How truly deluded and confused you are. That's what comes from copying-and-pasting rather than engaging in disciplined and prayerful Bible study.

Here are some scriptures for you to meditate on 'English man':

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
(Heb 11:13-16)

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
(1Co 2:16)

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
(Col 3:2-3)

P.S. You can call yourself I, Robot, for all I care, it makes not one difference to Jesus' direct and unambiguous claims to be God.

ijawkid: Frosbel I need ur sincere exegesis on 1 peter 3:18....

The witnesses didn't reach that conclusion based on d fact that we know it all....

In order for scriptures to rhyme,we drew that conclusion......

Many say Jesus is with flesh in heaven,but JW believe Jesus is a spirit person right now in d heavens just as d angels are......

Why??

Because FLESH and blood or FLESH does nt live in heaven....