My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? - Religion - Nairaland
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| My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by keenn: 6:03pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
As regards the surety for the existence of a creator, I am not certain. Nevertheless, is it not probable to think there is or was once a God? What if the whole distraction , world event, wars, human suffering, illogical religious ideas...that instigated inquisition for skepticism was all a detour? That said, there is a trend I have noticeD in my life that I would like to share with u. Ever since I have stopped praying or hoping for God intervention in my life...that means, planning my life as if it all depends solely on my actions and inactions, I have made progress. I make everyday worth it...it could be my last, I try to help the weak even at my detriment as much as I can knowing no help comes from above. If there is a God, people are in pains in hospital. Pls help them 8 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by NiceHans: 6:18pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
As an intelectual, logic is critical to reasoning. Sir, doing evidenced based studies, a study population of 1 is inconsequential and as such not valid, just as you describe yourself and idiosyncrasy above concerning your believe in God. What about the other side, the billions of people on the otherside i.e who believe in God, which have evidences, their thoughts couldnt be discarded as being untrue or inconsequential 7 Likes |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by keenn: 6:43pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
NiceHans: Study of 1 inconsequential? Really!!! Is that a premise/logic for an argument? Gallelio heliocentirc exlpanation of earth rotation was 'a study of 1'....so we might as well call it 'inconsequential!' Can u help me out here, why not spill the evidences? 1 Like |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by johnydon22(m): 7:38pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
[b]Look around you, there is nothing to suggest that there is anything anywhere that cares for the well being of humans. Babies are still dying in their millions, hunger and famine still hold sway on the lives of millions. One cannot help but wonder how Hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamis, earth quakes that kill in their millions in this planet is the design of an intelligent being who loves this planet, then i think that being have no idea what love is. in our delusion many have died in their attempt to please these Gods humans have assumed up and yet this being was no where to be found in these time of tragedies. Is it aware of such tragedies but didn't want to help? then why disturb yourself over what doesn't care about you and this factor murders the attribute of all loving. Is it aware and wants to help? then why didn't it help. Is it aware but unable to help? this murders the assumption of all powerful. Is it not aware? this murders the assumption of all knowing. In the burden of human weakness and in our moments of realizing how vulnerable we are, we have assumed up help from the skies, deities that are meant to help us, Gods that are meant to care, but one look at the world shows you that the assumption of these figments of our imaginations do not help in anyway. We only have ourselves and this planet. For since these deities and Gods humans have come up with seems incompetent and clueless just like us who invented them. Isn't it right to conclude that only us can either help or mar ourselves. Since these Gods has shown to be nothing more than wishful thinking, isn't it a more nobler thing to know we only have an obligation towards ourselves and others around us. [/b] 22 Likes 10 Shares |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by Antiparticle(m): 8:43pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
@OP: I have no certainty about the existence of a creator either. But if there is one, he/she/it is definitely not the God of the Bible or Koran or any of the religions marauding themselves as truth. This is not to say I hate religion. I don't. Religion can be good for people if and only if it helps them become better people and lead better lives. Unfortunately, almost every religion claims that it is its own truth claims that are correct, and in order to ensure followership from the masses, most religions use fear and extortionist tactics to suppress questions and critical thinking. This is what I have my biggest problem with. Religion in Nigeria (particularly Pentecostal Christianity which I was once an avid part of), unfortunately has created a people who prefer superstition over science and elevate prayers over hard work. Also, if God exists, he/she/it wouldn't make it so hard to find him/her/it. It makes no sense for a God to make so many threats against unbelievers yet refuse to provide clear, convincing, unfakeable, and unquestionable evidence to prove his/her/its existence. My conclusion is thus: 1. If the Abrahamic God exists, and "He" indeed plans to punish me for not believing in "Him" (in spite of "His" refusal to provide me unfakeable evidence to pacify my earnest search for "Him" ), then "He" is a psychopathic entity that I wouldn't want to worship anyways. Think about it, does it make any sense that most Christians in the world today (including in Africa, South America, and even many European countries) are so solely because their ancestors were conquered by murderers, enslavers, colonialists, and tyrants? 2. If certain populations would go to hell because they aren't Christians (e.g. because their ancestors weren't conquered by other Christian nations), then either the Christian God (who supposedly is a God of justice) is not just or He doesn't exist. Either way, I'm not interested in worshiping an unjust entity or a nonexistent God. The preponderance of evidence points to the likelihood that a personal & interventionist God (a la the Bible or Koran) doesn't exist. 3. The Bible, both in the Old and New Testaments, speaks of an interventionist God. I used to be a passionate Christian. But as a science-oriented analytical thinker, from observation I have now realized that miracles do not happen. Jesus said those that follow him would perform similar miracles and signs and wonders as he did. There hasn't been any unquestionable miracle (e.g. growing back of amputated limb). The only "miracles" I hear of are miracles that could equally be attributed to coincidence or placebo. Prayers, too, don't get answered... it took me a while to figure this one out too... the only prayers that get answered are for the things that one didn't need prayer for in the first place. Sigh. If the Christian God exists, then "He" is not even following his own standards as laid out in the Bible therefore he is not all-powerful which implies he is either a liar, a weakling, or doesn't exist. I don't worship liars. If a creator exists, I don't think he/she/it cares about us. Or maybe he/she/it is dead. Or maybe there is no metaphysical anthropomorphic personal interventionist God in the way that we think about it. I could go on and on and on.... 25 Likes 9 Shares |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by An2elect2(f): 9:06pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
What if  LMAO You got it all wrong, durhhh.1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by menesheh(m): 9:09pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
keenn: Any intellectually sincere person should know that he can be wrong in one way or the other. That's where skepticism start playing a role. here is this god that knew our inner mind and the reasons for the cause of our actions. Such god should know about gullibility and irrationality. He should should be aware of the existence of superstitions and myth created by human mind. He should know we are intellectually honest with our position as atheist. He should know that we are trying so hard to distinguish between facts and fantasy, and that the method and link he established for communicating with us is so vague and lack evidence and justifications. He should know that the concept he brought to us falls under the same category with the likes of leprechaun, unicorn, amazioha and so many of such imagery concepts. Hopefully, such god should know that his concept is as silly as other superstitious concepts. If am allowed to ask him only one Questions, i will ask him, "why did you choose to convey such precious message via text of which lacks all possible evidence'' " i will like to know why he choose faith base instead of evidence based knowing fully well that we live our everyday life with the application of inference and induction. If Such god knew about all these flaws and still decided to punish me, i will be very glad to receiving such punishment ten fold. I will be very happy knowing fully well that am intellectually and morally superior to such god. 13 Likes 4 Shares
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| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by KingEbukasBlog(m): 9:12pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
Antiparticle: Honestly , these are conclusions a 5 yr old kid should come up with . WTF 4 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by An2elect2(f): 9:26pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
KingEbukasBlog: 5 yr old kids are smarter. LOL...Cant believe someone came up with a junk like that. Anyway that's what we expect from a brain devoid of sound reasoning  2 Likes |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by onetrack(m): 9:37pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
And what if there is a god and he allows only atheists into heaven? What then? 5 Likes |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by Antiparticle(m): 9:43pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
What if you got it wrong? There are hundreds of thousands of gods that have been worshiped throughout world history, so your probability of worshiping the right God is less than 0.001%. How do you feel certain in spite of this low probability? Not trying to fight anyone... just having an honest debate here. An2elect2: 3 Likes |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by freecocoa(f): 9:44pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
An2elect2:Sound reasoning indeed. Babe you are the funniest on here. 12 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by Antiparticle(m): 9:45pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
Glad to hear your insightful and mature thoughts. KingEbukasBlog: 12 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by freecocoa(f): 9:47pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
If there's anything I'm sure of, it is that even if there's a god anywhere, he isn't the one of the bible and all those other religions that support the idea of hell. I am also certain I have nothing to lose by not believing in such gods. 18 Likes 3 Shares |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by johnydon22(m): 9:52pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
An2elect2:Lmao why not tender a rebuttal to his posts, why not teach him what sound reasoning really is here because just saying it is just a very laughable claim. The joke here is on you. . . Ad hominems only betray a mind insecure in it's self to infer a reasonable reply to opposite ideas. I will like to see you take him up and refute his posts, because this poor clutch at ad hominem doesn't speak well to prove your point of possessing a sounder reasoning ability than him. will like to see you try.. 14 Likes 3 Shares |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by johnydon22(m): 9:57pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
Antiparticle:You have just earned my respect with this mature reply in the face of childish ad hominem. My respect sir!!! 11 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by bstringz(m): 10:01pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
Hey @antiparticle and the rest of the atheists here... Am glad u guys could come here and bring up sound reasoning it's good and it's not wrong I would really love to chat with u guys so we could have a meaningful conversation. Hey @johnnydon I sent u a pm, and I asked for u to add me on whatsapp My number is 09026526548. The atheists here Can add me on whatsapp let's have a meaningful conversation |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by johnydon22(m): 10:13pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
bstringz:Sorry sir haven't checked my mail today. . Anyway just so you know i do not argue about religions on whatsApp, my whatsApp is for chats and catching up and when i want to argue i do it here in an open ground for all to see. So if you have an argument or discussion you would want us to discuss i would rather we do it here on Nairaland where it is open for all. I will add you on whatsApp but just in case i only argue or discuss extensively about religions when i come to NL |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by Antiparticle(m): 10:20pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
@johnydon22... thanks mahn. I appreciate your intellect and clarity in communication. The problem with many theists (though not all) is that instead of legitimately listening to the honest arguments of theological skeptics, they quickly become hostile and launch ad-hominems. If this were four hundred years ago, I bet some of these angry theists would murder us on sight... after all, this was standard practice at the time. I love @menesheh's post that "[God] should know we are intellectually honest with our position as atheist. He should know that we are trying so hard to distinguish between facts and fantasy, and that the method and link he established for communicating with us is so vague and lack evidence and justifications." The problem is that many theists, particularly Christian and Muslims (though not all), think that atheists are atheist for undeclared dishonest motives. This is probably what sucks to hear from friends/family -- that they think one is skeptic/atheist/agnostic because of an ulterior motive. When I was Christian, I used to listen patiently to my atheist/agnostic friends and we didn't get into any theological fights in spite of our debates (they made some good points that I acknowledged I didn't have the answer to, and they made some points that I also strongly but amiably disagreed with). I figured that was what Jesus would want me to do. Many of the Christians on the Nairaland religion section respond to non-theists with so much bile, in a way that the Jesus they worship would not endorse. Funnily, I think Jesus (if he existed) was a good guy though I obviously don't think he was divine. lol. 15 Likes 4 Shares |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by Nobody: 10:23pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
bstringz:mind u atheism is not a religion or society. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by Antiparticle(m): 10:25pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
Bro, sorry o but I mostly only debate theology/theism/religion with close friends (and on Nairaland). Also, I did lots and lots of research and reading before I became a theological skeptic... funnily, I did all the research because I wanted to understand God better yet it led me to a Pandora's Box! Edited: If you are a theist hoping to convince me: I really doubt you would tell me something new... but I'm open so you are welcome to cogently respond to my post and provide any countering evidence on this public thread. If you are skeptic/atheist looking to think through some things together, sure... being a new skeptic comes with its bag of issues to sort out, especially being from a highly religious (though ungodly) nation as Nigeria. Yet, we can have the conversation on this public forum as well. bstringz: |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by An2elect2(f): 10:34pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
Antiparticle: Dear, i will be a fool and a miserable fellow if i worship the Sovereign God based on probability, even as high as 99.999% No way! That thing that gives me absolute surety is beyond the maximum amount that your brain can carry. Yes. It will make no sense to you because your senses cannot be stretched farther than knowing a God exists at least. I know that Jesus is the only true God not because i was indoctrinated or born into a catholic home, but because i have been blessed with THAT WISDOM that no man has except it be given to him/her. I might give you 1000 reasons why the Christian God is the true God, but it will do you no good cos someone with more enticing words of men's wisdom might swindle you with what appeals to your limited senses. Without THE HIDDEN WISDOM, you will always swim in uncertainty and nobody is comfortable in those troubling waters. Well, and of course, someone will scream hallucination! Lol. Do i blame you who have no eyes to see or ears to hear. When you are dead to God, every truth about God ceases to make sense to you. But O'well, i am being deluded, i forgot. How can something as true as this, be delusions? Only to the wise and prudent of this world of course! Lol Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. 7 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by bstringz(m): 11:02pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
You know why I needed to add you guys on whatsapp was so we could chat live back and forth consistently without barriers. Cos most times am not always on nairaland. I have been keenly following you guys for sometime and feel I should get in touch with you. Too the guy who said that atheism is not a religion or society, I quite agree it's not. It's a choice and a conviction. But hey, do u know what? So is Christianity. Christianity is not a religion I think that's where I would start from. Christianity is a way of life. The bible tells us that the men at Corinth saw the LIFESTYLE of the followers of Jesus and said this men behave like christ and hence called them Christians. Please I need you guys to disregard some of the things you read on the old testament. If that was a definition for who God is, I wouldn't have also worshipped him. Please, take some Time to read through the new testament with an open heart and follow the life of Jesus christ and his teachings, and to would see that many things he taught are the basis for good living today. Christianity is not conformity to any set down rules or guidelines. No. Christ defined Christianity in the golden rule of loving others as much as we love ourselves and even sometimes more than we love ourselves. I believe many of you were once Christians and you have an objective mind. Go through the life of christ objectively. The old testament is not a basis for living. The life of christ is. He dwelled among us so we could see how possible it is for us to live a good life,devoid of sin. I know I didn't address some issues. I just started with this. If you have any topic u want us to talk about bring it up and let's talk. No insults please. Let's use our heads cos we are young and reasonable people. Thanks 2 Likes |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by keenn: 11:02pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
An2elect2: I thought jesus was a god and not God, '...my father is greater than I am...' I av always use the sun/gravity as absolute certainty of awareness, no sane person argues about their existence. You talk about this God as if u know for sure. This is a platform, u don't need to spill 1000 reasons as u claim, 5 should do. Pls 4 Likes |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by BeastOfNoNation(f): 11:19pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
Antiparticle: Oh my goodness! I agree with you 100% You've summed up so much of what I've felt about the Abrahamic Gods for some years now.  Religion and spirituality are beautiful in their own right and I encourage everyone to be spiritual but I personally do not believe in the Abrahamic religions. I feel they are all hypocritical in their teachings at times and that always threw me off I'm an agnostic myself because I just admit that I don't know whether there is a supreme deity or not. There are things that are just too complex to understand right now3 Likes |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by bstringz(m): 11:24pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
keenn: Jesus=God. God=Jesus Jesus came to earth as God-man. He was God but in human form. When he made that statement he wasn't saying it from the God Point of view. He was saying it knowing he was a man here on earth. The sun and gravity which u make reference of was made by God. So the sun is as certain as God is. Yes, she speaks of God Cos she has encountered him. I don't know you now cos I haven't had an encounter with you. Until I seek an encounter with you, I won't know you. So why don't u seek an encounter with God. Then that way u would know him. If u honestly and open mindedly seek he would reveal himself to you, he wants to. He loves you even if you don't love him he still loves you. So am by evidences concerning the existence of God. But lemme wait for her to share some with you and I would also share mine. Cheers. 3 Likes |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by BeastOfNoNation(f): 11:31pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
bstringz: But every other religion says the same thing. I could replace 'God' with 'Alla'h and all the Muslims will agree. I could go to a Jew and he may tell me that I cannot find God through Jesus. I could go to a traditionalist and they may tel me that the traditional gods are the way forward How do I know that the REAL religion is not some unidentified one in some village in Mongolia? The problem with religion is that all of them need you to rely on faith as opposed to evidence. If ANY faith provided pure evidence of a God (as in I met the God myself), then I would believe wholeheartedly1 Like |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by Nobody: 11:36pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
keenn:God is a fairy created by primitive human beings. There is not evidence it exist somewhere, anywhere or will ever exist. It is purely a lie to control and deceive people and possibly the lack of ability to understand the physical phenomena. |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by keenn: 11:58pm On Sep 30, 2015 |
bstringz: '...if u honestly and open mindedly seek he would reveal himself to you...' The above quote is used by Grail messengers, muslims, Christian churches that profess contrary doctrine and claim their calling is the true one...funny enough, each converted member will claim devine guidance as regards their new found faith. Lol About the sun, That is what the bible said, others believe RAH created the sun. So real was Rah's presence that his worshiper throw victim of sacrifice into fire alive and bring them out only to cut out their beating heart and raise it to the sun as homage to god Rah. Let me create a scenario. I have this little friend called Edet, Edet was abandoned at the age of 4 by his parent in the hospital ward because he was physically challenged. I now ask, who should look for who, Edet or the parent 4 Likes 6 Shares |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by bstringz(m): 12:29am On Oct 01, 2015 |
@keen, @beastofallnation You both, made the same point in how I know "My God" is the one true God. Now, do u believe in the existence of the Devil? I doubt if you don't believe in the existence of a God you would believe in the existence of the devil. That's why some of the things I would say now to you may sound posposterous just as the concept of God also sounds like that to you. Now when the Muslims and traditionalists tells you Allah or Amadioha is the one true god. Don't throw it away yet. Pick up the quaran, pick up the bible(preferably the new testament), pick up also the Jewish Torah. Now do a study and ask the one true God to reveal himself to you. As you read them The devil manipulates nature, if u read the Bible and some studies you would find out that the devil was thrown out of heaven due to his disobedience and when he fell he took with him about 1third of the angels and they became demons. Now the devil rules the earth, hence the need for the second coming of christ. Devil and his demons has so much manipulated human beings that the devil had made people worship all sort of things (gods). This doesn't make them GOD. HENCE the numerous gods we have today. They are all manipulations of the devil. The devil craves worship, he wants to be worshipped like God but I bet if he comes in his true form and character, nobody would worship him so he disguises in form of sango, Amadioha, e. t. c and does "good" and people worship hereby decieving people Even Jesus tells us that we should be beware that Satan can come in form of an angel of light. Don't be deceived all this other gods are not God. The human mind loves to work and so the the need to create this things. But in the spiritual anything we attach any form of worship to becomes a god. Humans started attaching worship to stones, birds and the devil sees this as an opportunity to be worshipped. Christian origin stated from the roman empire spread down to the geeks and spread further in Europe. So don't u think it's only normal for the white men to have brought us Christianity. Though their motives were not pure. But christ sees this as an opportunity to reach out to the black men who were busy worshipping stones and rocks. There is only one God. And that God is the God of the bible. Not Allah, not Amadioha. You can only reach God through Jesus Christ because he is God. To your question @keen. The boy is physically challenged. So he's parents should seek for him if they love him The human challenge is sin and do u know that God has already seek for you, he came down and died for you, felt what u felt went through the same challenges as you so he could understand you. Ain't that seeking? He's made himself available. He's already at the hospital bed (if he were the boys parent) standing next to the bed. The boys part in the seeking is just for him to open his eyes and see Jesus standing next to him So keen Jesus has already seek you by dying for you, your part in the seeking ain't hard just accept him and that's all... Bam!! So easy and your automatically a friend of God. Christ doesn't want to "rule" you. He wants to be your friend. You have nothing to lose if at the end christ is myth (he's not) if u accept him. But think of just what if Christ (God) really exists (He does) what would u have to say. You have everything to lose Cheers. 1 Like |
| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by Nobody: 12:30am On Oct 01, 2015 |
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| Re: My Fellow Agnostic And Atheist, What If We Got It All Wrong? by bstringz(m): 12:49am On Oct 01, 2015 |
all4naija: If the God you are talking about here is the God of the bible who is Jesus christ... Then he's not fairy. However if your talking of Amadioha, Allah, sango e. T. C then I can't speak for them I don't think you have really searched for God he's evidence is everywhere. Maybe you should try searching for the devil maybe wen u see how real he is you would understand how real God is. Try joining an occult I mean a really deep one and you would see devil and demons in action and you would know that it ain't magic. The devil has power so does God but he's is greater. But I advice you, pick up a bible and u would see how available God is. What are the odds that if an atomic bomb goes off in Nigeria today that order and life would be created out of chaos(Basis of the Big bang theory) . Chaos only creates chaos. Look at the star, look at yourself do u honestly think u Came from a lizard, who evolved till it became an ape?? Only a higher being could av done all this wonder not some atomic reaction. Only the one true God. Yes human beings tend to admit to something higher wen dey don't understand something that's the way our minds were created to work. The physical phenomena can never be understood completely this is irrefutable evidence that some thing greater is at work Am sure you have not and won't understand everything that happens around you, so why don't u seek something higher so u cud understand it better. I now understand so many things because I now know Jesus Cos he's word tells us that we shall understand it better by and by... Note :I don't believe in Jesus cos I was born into a believing family. In fact at a point I nearly became atheistic, cos I searched answers to so many things. And I questioned my faith. But I found my answers by patiently, diligently seeking answers open mindedly. Notice the word patiently. I know some of us may say "ppft, lemme give this a try" and you ask God for a sign by praying. It may not happen immediately please be patient and be alert so u can know wen it has happened God bless you. Cheers. Goodnight, we would talk more tomorrow 1 Like |
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