Billyonaire:

The concept of abortion and the illegality of it, is not necessarily about doubts of the existence of soul. It has more to do with knowing when life starts, when soul enters the baby's prama. It has also to do with understanding the composite of oxygen, its animating effect.

I understand that.
That too is a mystery for me...
I was debating the notion that there is no such thing as a soul.

Anyway...i was checking out this site earlier:

http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-week-by-week

i think people should check it out first before speaking on this issue.
what i got from it is that the human baby's organs are not fully developed prior to the first month with the exception of the heart which will beat by week 9.

Now as you said we don't know when the "soul" enters the body and that is the troubling part.

*Kails*:
To those who are debating whether or not the soul exists..
please don't kid yourselves. The soul is very real.

[size=18pt]Right now I am typing to you and thinking of each word inside of my head before and as I type them[/size]. I can have conversations with myself and premeditate my actions before doing them (plan).

If someone, some accident, or disease were to kill me..I would no longer have this ability.

People will say "well Kails, your body is made up of organs and muscle, you see THAT is what keeps you alive and allows you to do all of the above"...

WELL to whom it may concern, I could have part of my brain removed and still think. I could have a heart transplant, lung removed, 90% of my entire face could be gone.... I could literally be a torso with just my head attached and so on, so on....but unless that inner breath in me(soul) is still within my body...I am still here. Once THAT is gone...then I am no more.

Think of it as a car with no battery. I could have my timing belts, my gas pedal, my front/tail lights, could have my brake fluid reservoir, my radiator, my alternator etc...but if I don't have my BATTERY to put it all in motion...I would be of no use. I wouldn't be able to serve my purpose.

Don't get me started on emotions and the voids many feel within themselves which further proves the soul exists...And God...**COUGHS**
Because that is for another topic.

Are you telling me that so-called soul has supplanted the functions of your brain? Let me tell you; if something happens to your brain and knocks off its functions, you will have no soul to converse with.

[img][/img]
Abortion is Evil.
Abortionists are murderers.
The worst thing to happen
to any Man, Woman, Girl or Boy
is to lose his or her Soul.
Do not do it.
Do not partake in it.
Do not encourage it.

ACM10:
What I explained above is the repiratory physiology of foetus and newborn babies. This is not biology.
You can proceed with the concept of soul. I will be mot willing to learn.

Good, so we are clear, I am ready to learn from you and I will implore that we keep an open mind so we can address each questions as they come. The tripartite nature of living things are real, both plants and animals. While the physical body is just made up of earth materials, soul is purely ethereal but spirit is energy component of all things both living and non-living. During pregnancy, the foetus shares fluids and major functions with the mother and is indeed much more of an organ of the woman connected via the placenta and getting all vital nutrients through same mode. It is not a separate entity until child birth, soul pervades space, so at child birth, at first breath of oxygen, the air via the longs animates the brain and the 5 chakras of the body which are the tendons of soul to the physical body and put the foetus on life-mode, and the body of the child is jump started just like starting a car, this body will vibrate every 4 seconds until Death as we know it, So in essence, all living things has inner vibrations that keeps it roaring as far as soul resides in there. It is at first breath of air, which contains oxygen that a child becomes different entity from the mom. It is after breath of first breath that someone can be accused of murder if that child is killed. So in essence, if doctors can convince me that the foetus they abort breaths during the abortion then its murder, but in all cases, abortion occurs before such a time that the respiratory organs of the foetus is fully formed, so in essence, no life is lost, cos the foetus was not alive as an independent entity but as an organ of the mother.

ACM10:
Are you telling me that so-called soul has supplanted the functions of your brain? Let me tell you; if something happens to your brain and knocks off its functions, you will have no soul to converse with.

lol obviously. We were but fragile beings designed to use our heads but that does not change the fact that our soul is required for our existence. I could have a hemispherectomy (partial brain removal) and STILL be alive my dear. Right, Left, Frontal or rear why do you think that is?

wiegraf:

So because he put it in there he has the right to tell her what she should do with it?

I leave something in your car, I now have the right to tell you where you go, how you service the car, etc?

The only person (I would suggest) she has to consult, supposing she's not a minor, is a qualified physician (or sadly, some sort of board, as there are doctors know to be unprofessional because of their religious beliefs). He would ascertain that no harm would come to her and should also make sure she's aware of all the options available (like say adoption, test tubes, whatever)


Random and irrelevant, as this issue really is solely about the woman and it being her body:
I think the golden rule is flawed, but that's another story. Quite a few people wish they had never been born, or would if they knew better. Who are you to speak for them?
And even for late terms, when does a baby begin to show signs of any self-awareness? Even if it might sound harsh, it's certainly not at birth. At that stage it's no different than a goat. In fact, certain full-grown primates would qualify as more 'human' than the baby. So it's not like the baby can 'choose' to live. If it has a soul, pls show it to me? As we obviously have to draw a line somewhere birth is acceptable.

thank you. Even me sef don sincerely challenged my mama before say why she no abort my pregnancy. She com born me for inside dis damn world of confusion. Haba!

ACM10:
What I explained above is the repiratory physiology of foetus and newborn babies. This is not biology.

You can proceed with the concept of soul. I will be mot willing to learn.

look, whether you do biology or mamalogy no concern us, logic senior your biology. So, is the foetus ever conscious of its life?

idtreasures: [img][/img]
Abortion is Evil.
Abortionists are murderers.
The worst thing to happen
to any Man, Woman, Girl or Boy
is to lose his or her Soul.
Do not do it.
Do not partake in it.
Do not encourage it.

sharaap there hound!

Lord Babs: look, whether you do biology or mamalogy no concern us, [size=18pt]logic senior your biology[/size]. So, is the foetus ever conscious of its life?

LOL!!! Thank you!!

I hate when people act like that. "Well I studied so and so.." "I have a degree in that and that"...but don't have a lick of common sense!

(btw ACM10...im not saying you don't have commonsense but he is right...when it comes issues of morality..credentials/subjects are null and void.)

ACM10:
Are you telling me that so-called soul has supplanted the functions of your brain? Let me tell you; if something happens to your brain and knocks off its functions, you will have no soul to converse with.

I think you are mixing up a lot of things. The brain in its physical form, I know you understand the components of the fore brain, the hind brain and the central part of the brain. You are simply dwelling on the physical part of the brain. Have you pondered on the role of brain as function of the mind ? Although that is like derailing this thread, I can throw some lights on the brain as a function of the mind and its relationship to the soul.

Lord Babs: thank you. Even me sef don sincerely challenged my mama before say why she no abort my pregnancy. She com born me for inside dis damn world of confusion. Haba!

wow...you sound ungrateful.
you know how many people were robbed of their lives and here you are wishing your mom aborted you?

na wa for some ppl sef!!

When ur in the hospital and u can see ur baby's arms, legs, movements. When u can your baby kick, stretch, push, become restless when the weather is hot, u will know that the baby is not just an organ

Billyonaire: I think you are mixing up a lot of things. The brain in its physical form, I know you understand the components of the fore brain, the hind brain and the central part of the brain. You are simply dwelling on the physical part of the brain. Have you pondered on the role of brain, the mind ? Although that is like derailing this thread, I can throw some lights on the brain as a function of the mind and its relationship to the soul.

^^^ thank you.
the brain is there to help guide us in controlling our functions and sending information to the body but parts of the brain can be removed and we will STILL be alive and conscious!

The brain is ANOTHER ORGAN...period.

musKeeto:
I taya... just had to ignore that part.. thanks..

No taya ooooo! I'm learning free of charge from u all. Abi make i send lucozade boost for u. Lol

*Kails*:


wow...you sound ungrateful.
you know how many people were robbed of their lives and here you are wishing your mom aborted you?

na wa for some ppl sef!!

That is not true, no soul has ever been lost. If his soul was not born by his mom, he would have been born by someone else. Energy can not be created nor destroyed. Theory of reincarnation proves this 100%

Shokoloko: When ur in the hospital and u can see ur baby's arms, legs, movements. When u can your baby kick, stretch, push, become restless when the weather is hot, u will know that the baby is not just an organ

awe man...
that's a beautiful post right there.

Billyonaire:
That is not true, no soul has ever been lost. If his soul was not born by his mom, he would have been born by someone else. Energy can not be created nor destroyed. Theory of reincarnation proves this 100%

GEEEEZE!!!!

I was trying to make a point here! lol.

*Kails*:


^^^ thank you.
the brain is there to help guide us in controlling our functions and sending information to the body but parts of the brain can be removed and we will STILL be alive and conscious!

The brain is ANOTHER ORGAN...period.

Ofcourse brain is just an organ. But there is a control center between the Soul Body and the Physical Body. It is called the MIND in that context, I guess thats what ACM10 confuses the brain with.

Billyonaire: Ofcourse brain is just an organ. But there is a control center between the Soul Body and the Physical Body. It is called the MIND in that context, I guess thats what ACM10 confuses the brain with.

I like the way you think.
I am interested in learning more about your theory.

Billyonaire:

Good, so we are clear, I am ready to learn from you and I will implore that we keep an open mind so we can address each questions as they come. The tripartite nature of living things are real, both plants and animals. While the physical body is just made up of earth materials, soul is purely ethereal but spirit is energy component of all things both living and non-living. During pregnancy, the foetus shares fluids and major functions with the mother and is indeed much more of an organ of the woman connected via the placenta and getting all vital nutrients through same mode. It is not a separate entity until child birth, soul pervades space, so at child birth, at first breath of oxygen, the air via the longs animates the brain and the 5 chakras of the body which are the tendons of soul to the physical body and put the foetus on life-mode, and the body of the child is jump started just like starting a car, this body will vibrate every 4 seconds until Death as we know it, So in essence, all living things has inner vibrations that keeps it roaring as far as soul resides in there. It is at first breath of air, which contains oxygen that a child becomes different entity from the mom. It is after breath of first breath that someone can be accused of murder if that child is killed. So in essence, if doctors can convince me that the foetus they abort breaths during the abortion then its murder, but in all cases, abortion occurs before such a time that the respiratory organs of the foetus is fully formed, so in essence, no life is lost, cos the foetus was not alive as an independent entity but as an organ of the mother.

Billyonaire, you are talking philosophy. Philosophy bores me. I expect you to prove to me of the existence of soul. This is not logic. One thing I learnt in science is that logic sometimes does not apply.

Pregnancy lasts for 40 weeks. The respiratory system is the last organ to mature. It matures between 37 - 38wks. But a foetus can be delivered alive at 21wks in US and 28wks in Nigeria. You can see that your concept of soul at birth has been seriously challenged. So, how can you explain the birth of a baby before the respiratory organs are fully formed? Since your concept of soul is tied to the respiratory organ, breathing and oxygen. Let me remind you that most of those babies survive.

ACM10:
Billyonaire, you are talking philosophy. Philosophy bores me. I expect you to prove to me of the existence of soul. This is not logic. One thing I learnt in science is that logic sometimes does not apply.

Pregnancy lasts for 40 weeks. The respiratory system is the last organ to mature. It matures between 37 - 38wks. But a foetus can be delivered alive at 21wks in US and 28wks in Nigeria. You can see that your concept of soul at birth has been seriously challenged. So, how can you explain the birth of a baby before the respiratory organs are fully formed? Since your concept of soul is tied to the respiratory organ, breathing and oxygen. Let me remind you that most of those babies survive.

Soul enters @ birth? ACM has a good point here.

lol No offense Billyonare but it would make a hell of a lot more sense that the soul enters the body PRIOR to birth. Mind you the baby can blink, kick and feel emotions while in the womb bro.

Lord Babs: look, whether you do biology or mamalogy no concern us, logic senior your biology. So, is the foetus ever conscious of its life?

YES! There are signs which indicates that foetus is conscious of its life. Some of them are:

foetal heart rate

foetal kicks

etc.

But we should not attach sentiment to the issue of abortion. The issue should be left for women to decide. Cos women will ultimately bear the brunt of raising the kid.

*Kails*:


Soul enters @ birth? ACM has a good point here.

lol No offense Billyonare but it would make a hell of a lot more sense that the soul enters the body PRIOR to birth. Mind you the baby can blink, kick and feel emotions while in the womb bro.

Funny that a thread on abortion(directed at atheists) descends to an argument about souls.. Since y'all seek to derail the thread, I'd oblige. At over 140 posts, the thread may well have....

Alright @billyonaire: Could you define a soul?
Sorry if you've defined it before. The thread's a bit cluttered with random randoms right now... thanks..

ACM10:
Billyonaire, you are talking philosophy. Philosophy bores me. I expect you to prove to me of the existence of soul. This is not logic. One thing I learnt in science is that logic sometimes does not apply.
Pregnancy lasts for 40 weeks. The respiratory system is the last organ to mature. It matures between 37 - 38wks. But a foetus can be delivered alive at 21wks in US and 28wks in Nigeria. You can see that your concept of soul at birth has been seriously challenged. So, how can you explain the birth of a baby before the respiratory organs are fully formed? Since your concept of soul is tied to the respiratory organ, breathing and oxygen. Let me remind you that most of those babies survive.

I made it clear that we need to keep an open mind. Lecture burdens everyone. So let me make it simple. Soul enters a foetus at delivery at first breath of oxygen. And foetus becomes a child. But if for any reason, doctors decide to take the foetus out of the mother's womb, the first port of call is the Oxygenated life-support machine which is actually nothing more than a respiratory aid machine with pure oxygen going into the foetus, nature is purely scientific so I know more science than you actually give me credit for. Whether oxygen is breath naturally by a mature foetus at 9 months or its aided into the lungs at 5 months using life support machine then that foetus is alife and has soul. But abortions are not aided with life support machine, so the foetus are just not alive and has no soul. I hope you understand my explanation.

*Kails*:


wow...you sound ungrateful.
you know how many people were robbed of their lives and here you are wishing your mom aborted you?

na wa for some ppl sef!!

lol! One spectacular quality about we atheists is that we hardly vie to greedily grasp life, inspite that we don't believe in hereinafter bliss. Ironically, the theists who believe in afterlife and always crave for life eternal ahead, exude this ginormous greed to live, and at all cost. The funny naija pastors went further to install security gadgets, upon bokoharam threats, and start frisking worshippers before entering church premises. They call it 'security consciousness'. What an awful gimmickry! Some of these pastors even have personal security details...to guide and guard them from enemies. What happens to their assigned holy spirits and malaikas? Are all these a good emblem of a good morals(at least christian-wise)? Shît happens indeed!

ifeness:

to hell with the bible! abortion is a thing of choice,after all ur bible god killed several first born,including babies.

what is this idiott sayin? How is your comment related to my view on abortion? Well, foolish man, check the question again and reply.

Burch:

No taya ooooo! I'm learning free of charge from u all. Abi make i send lucozade boost for u. Lol

buy me vodka or bourbon instead. Na small pikin dey gorge lukewarmzade.

Billyonaire: I think you are mixing up a lot of things. The brain in its physical form, I know you understand the components of the fore brain, the hind brain and the central part of the brain. You are simply dwelling on the physical part of the brain. Have you pondered on the role of brain as function of the mind ? Although that is like derailing this thread, I can throw some lights on the brain as a function of the mind and its relationship to the soul.

Now, I want you to prove beyond doubt of the existence of soul by quoting any scientific literature or providing a proof.

musKeeto:
Funny that a thread on abortion(directed at atheists) descends to an argument about souls.. Since y'all seek to derail the thread, I'd oblige. At over 140 posts, the thread may well have....

Alright @billyonaire: Could you define a soul?
Sorry if you've defined it before. The thread's a bit cluttered with random randoms right now... thanks..

You mention that foetus kicks when in the womb, you are right, just like my stomach convulses when I drink too much beer, and just like people experience muscle pull after muscular activities. It is not any way an indication that the foetus is independent individual. It is just part of the mother connected via the placenta.

musKeeto:
Funny that a thread on abortion(directed at atheists) descends to an argument about souls.. Since y'all seek to derail the thread, I'd oblige. At over 140 posts, the thread may well have....

Alright @billyonaire: Could you define a soul?
Sorry if you've defined it before. The thread's a bit cluttered with random randoms right now... thanks..

Lol even if I created a thread directed to women, I couldn't possibly expect the male readers to not comment. That's life. And this topic is about abortion which is well off the charts in its controversy. It could not be discussed by atheists ONLY especially since their disbelief in God would mean there is no belief in a soul which would be used to justify the support of abortion .

Judging from your question to Billyonaire I think I am spot on.

Lord Babs: lol! One spectacular quality about we atheists is that we hardly vie to greedily grasp life, inspite that we don't believe in hereinafter bliss. Ironically, the theists who believe in afterlife and always crave for life eternal ahead, exude this ginormous greed to live, and at all cost. The funny naija pastors went further to install security gadgets, upon bokoharam threats, and start frisking worshippers before entering church premises. They call it 'security consciousness'. What an awful gimmickry! Some of these pastors even have personal security details...to guide and guard them from enemies. What happens to their assigned holy spirits and malaikas? Are all these a good emblem of a good morals(at least christian-wise)? Shît happens indeed!

Lol and...what does that tell you? Those pastors and church/mosque/synagogue go-ers are as anti-theist are you all are. The ones who truly do not believe in God the most are behind the pulpit and the fo0ls who take their every con and speech as gospel but will kill/hurt/insult someone who do not share their views.

The good thing about us simple theists is that we don't support atheism but we definitely have no affinity or relationship with these highly hypocritical religious folk.

it is wrong it is taking a life that can't speak up for itself yet.

ACM10:
Now, I want you to prove beyond doubt of the existence of soul by quoting any scientific literature or providing a proof.

And I want you to prove there is no such thing as a soul.