idiopathic:


>Africa made two mistakes: (1) Expelling whites; and
>(2) adopting Socialist type models.
>

Jenifa_:

^ colonization is never positive.
but of course your colonizers will always tell you that it's good for you.

no Asian Tiger country will tell you today that colonization was a good experience for them. at least the smart individuals from those countries. Yea some overcome in the end etc but that doesn't mean colonization was justified/positive. it never is.

AjanleKoko:

Hmm.
I think it did present some opportunity, albeit at a high cost, the cost of freedom.
A nation like Nigerian could never have pulled together by common agreement. We look at ourselves as poor achievers, but truth be told, we are a reasonably solid model for development in the African context. We were actually progressing at some point before we had major political setbacks like the military returning to power in 83, and IBB taking over.

Jenifa_:


yea there wouldn't be a Nigeria without colonial rule. but I think there would have been a better Africa.

lekside44:

the invasion of libya, is that not another colonisation?

Banderas:

Colonialism was a blessing. Colonialism (and it's attendant oppression) is a force of Nature and development. There isn't a single civilisation that has ever risen up without experiencing one form of oppression or colonisation.

AjanleKoko:

I kind of agree. Though we only look at Western colonization. The Arabs might well have overrun sub saharan Africa. Speaking of Arabs, they were also colonized, ironically. Ditto most of Asia. Colonization is relative. Modern Britain has a Norman, Saxon, and Roman colonial past.

Jenifa_:

the way you guys post, if Britain comes back tomorrow and tries to legally colonize Nigeria, no one will resist.
we seem to have a subservient mentality.

PhysicsMHD:

People who keep saying colonialism was a blessing are forgetting the example of Japan, which was able to modernize after exposure to the outside world without being economically exploited, invaded, or mentally and culturally degraded.

AjanleKoko:

I'm sure the Brits have a lot more to worry about these days

But seriously. [b]Nobody deludes themselves that colonization was a blessing. [/b]My opinion is, it was inevitable.

AjanleKoko:



The Japanese learned very fast from the Europeans and the Americans that showed up. They're also very smart and individual people. with strong ties to their culture. I'm no expert on Japanese history, but from what I have read it seemed the entry of the foreign'colonialists' presented a unique opportunity for the strongest feudal lords to unite the country, modernize and adopt European-style systems of government, technology, etc. So they kind of grasped the opportunity of foreign intrusion, and discarded their previous isolationist approach.

Also, I am not sure, but I think Japan is not heavy on mineral resources like an India, or most African countries. If Japan had been awash in some needed raw materials, don't you think the foreign powers would have upped the scales from trading to an all-out conquest? From Africa to Asia, all the way to South America, raw materials have always been the key driver for colonization.

Jenifa_:

I can't tell you if colonization was inevitable or not but I guess what has happened has happened. I think we are still sort of being colonized in a way and we're letting it happen. is the situation we are currently in now (poverty etc) also inevitable?

AjanleKoko:

Definitely not. In my opinion, yes, the foreign powers want oil, etc., but nobody is paying the rent-seeking Nigerian elite to deliberately impoverish their people. Far from it, according to Wikileaks. They all seem scared that the country might eventually descend into anarchy and jeopardize their investment, hence their eagerness to compromise and turn to any willing strongman to stabilize things. The elite, who are full-time rent-seekers who just want to get paid for being in power, cannot just find the balls to seize the economy by its britches and force it into the 21st century. Though some like Fashola are trying though.

They all seem scared that the country might eventually descend into anarchy and jeopardize their investment, hence their eagerness to compromise and turn to any willing strongman to stabilize things.

archive:

,  we can never know what africa would have turned out like without colonialism. ,

Jenifa_:

didn't the British also rule through our own chiefs and rulers? ,

AjanleKoko:


, unfortunately, people still look to strong men to save them, ostensibly from their own naivete and laziness,

lekside44:

it is not that we are lazy, but we have not achieved the technological breakthrough required. the blame should be on our leaders who either have no vision, or have no interest in achieving these great task. there are many blue prints eg the 6334 system that was to transformed the countries educational systems in achieving the neccessary technological transformation.

AjanleKoko:

lekside,
Far from it. I think people are lazy. Your comment regarding 'our leaders' even confirms it. The average Nigerian, nay African, appears to be waiting to be told what to do by a 'leader'. We have a leadership crisis in Nigeria primarily because nobody sees themselves as leaders. People sit and dream of a utopia that they expect a leader figure to provide, rather than than them rising vertically where they are.

For example, you hardly see a plumber putting everything into his plumbing profession, till he rises above other plumbers. Instead what you see is a plumber who prefers to maintain status quo, and when things go sour, blame someone else or even blame the plumbing profession. In Africa, you hardly see consistency. What you see is people stubbornly sticking to doing the same thing the same way year in year out, and when things go sour, they blame everything under the sun.

It's part of why I said earlier that colonialism was inevitable for Africa. The West needed resources, they turned to Africa, and deployed the only tool at their disposal - brute force. We were not ready, so we couldn't protect our motherland.

AjanleKoko:

lekside,
Far from it. I think people are lazy. Your comment regarding 'our leaders' even confirms it. The average Nigerian, nay African, appears to be waiting to be told what to do by a 'leader'. We have a leadership crisis in Nigeria primarily because nobody sees themselves as leaders. People sit and dream of a utopia that they expect a leader figure to provide, rather than than them rising vertically where they are.

For example, you hardly see a plumber putting everything into his plumbing profession, till he rises above other plumbers. Instead what you see is a plumber who prefers to maintain status quo, and when things go sour, blame someone else or even blame the plumbing profession. In Africa, you hardly see consistency. What you see is people stubbornly sticking to doing the same thing the same way year in year out, and when things go sour, they blame everything under the sun.

It's part of why I said earlier that colonialism was inevitable for Africa. The West needed resources, they turned to Africa, and deployed the only tool at their disposal - brute force. We were not ready, so we couldn't protect our motherland.

AjanleKoko:

lekside,
Far from it. I think people are lazy. Your comment regarding 'our leaders' even confirms it. The average Nigerian, nay African, appears to be waiting to be told what to do by a 'leader'. We have a leadership crisis in Nigeria primarily because nobody sees themselves as leaders. People sit and dream of a utopia that they expect a leader figure to provide, rather than than them rising vertically where they are.

For example, you hardly see a plumber putting everything into his plumbing profession, till he rises above other plumbers. Instead what you see is a plumber who prefers to maintain status quo, and when things go sour, blame someone else or even blame the plumbing profession. In Africa, you hardly see consistency. What you see is people stubbornly sticking to doing the same thing the same way year in year out, and when things go sour, they blame everything under the sun.

It's part of why I said earlier that colonialism was inevitable for Africa. The West needed resources, they turned to Africa, and deployed the only tool at their disposal - brute force. We were not ready, so we couldn't protect our motherland.

archive:

well some will moan and whine about it, just like (i think) seun said, we can never know what africa would have turned out like without colonialism. what i do know, however, is that we cant blame colonialism for the state of africa. africa is in the state it is because of the people and the government. we are the ones who can change our fate - as soon as we stop blaming everyone else and develop some pride and ambition, africa can truly prosper.

stillwater:

Well we could use those indigenous tribes such as the Andamanese people in India, Bushmen of Namibia, even the Koma people of Nigeria as a case in point. That is how most of Africa would still look like till date.

Jenifa_:

I don't know what you mean by laziness being our problem.
I think lack of vision is a better term like lekside said.

a slave could be the most hardworking slave in the world while his master may be the most lazy in the world. but that doesn't change the power structure. it's not that much about laziness than it is about purpose/vision etc.

for me, I know that our governments know exactly what's going on. In fact, I really agree with lekside esp. giving the example of gadaffi, saddam Hussein, Mugabe etc. These are leaders that try to take control and free their country from the west/white rule. but the west always want to hold on to power so they attack back.

I bet if jonathan goes against obama's wishes today, the punishment will be great. so our leaders are in essence sometimes unwilling puppets. but I do agree that they do some of these things out of personal greed as well.

ex. the structural adjustment programs implemented in Nigeria and many african countries in 70s and 80s is an example of how the west (IMF etc) were running our nations through our leaders. but then our leaders can't do anything about this because we owe them money in loans! if we went against their wishes, loan will be defaulted.

so the question of whether the situation we are in right now is inevitable or not is really up for debate.
is there a way that our leaders can try to work toward the progress of Nigeria but at the same time not upset the western powers?
is it a zero sum game where what's good for us is bad for the west and vice versa?

ex. china's rise has contributed to huge financial deficit for US. so what was good for china is kinda bad for the US. and I'm sure if china were a small country or less powerful country, it would have been a war zone a long time ago/ or problem solved with some covert CIA operation.etc

so is it really our leaders that's keeping us down? or the west? or a combination of both. how can our leaders rise up to the challenge successfully? what would you do if you were president?

Jenifa_:

AjanleKoko,

I think there is contradiction in your post. on one hand, you say somethings are just inevitable. on the other hand, you say it's a lack of action (laziness). what makes a situation inevitable and what makes it evitable? What's the criteria for judging an outcome as inevitable or not?


IMO, terrorists in Khyber pass learning to create bombs over internet can only be compared to yahooze nigerian guys scamming people on the internet. nothing all that groundbreaking about that. But it shows how people use resources to create opportunities for themselves even if illegal or against ethical standards.

I think the kind of technological advances lekside is talking about will be limited by the capitalist system. Stuff like state of the art artillery, pharmaceuticals, manufacturing etc (if we can't create our own/ are importing, then we really have no control over it) In this way, we really can't create technological breakthrough easily because there is NO WAY we can compete with outsiders. and there are such things as property and intellectual rights unless you go by illegal means to which there are repercussions. It's like starting a race with your opponent miles ahead of you. how do you win that one?

I agree with your points about the dictators. Yea they deserve to be removed and all that but why is it always the west interfering in the global south's politics all the time? The whole paternalistic behavior of "I know what's best for you and your country."
Even the US govt advices GEJ on economic, political and even social matters.
This hasn't helped us one bit and it will never help us. To me, the key to development is to be removed from the reins of the west and that's going to be the biggest challenge.

what are concrete ideas you think are key to Nigeria's development? How do we become "hardworking" to develop ourselves? and what models are you judging this idea on?