I dont know why i ended up reading the story of the Noah's Ark recently but honestly this is most disjointed and hopelessly unbelievable story that has ever been written and to make matters worse, its in the bible and christians say the bible is the word of god which in turn makes the bible more unbelievable every given moment.

For a refresher course, i have to recite what god wrote:

Noah's flood is described in the Bible's book of Genesis, chapters 6 through 9. Here are two quotes from these chapters that touch on the high points:

[b]So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark-you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."
Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

And:
On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark. The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the Lord shut him in.
For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. Every living thing that moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days. [/b]

Does this story make sense? Did this really happen? Did 8 people really build an Ark that is 450 feet long and 75 feet wide? Did an omniscient God write this story, or did primitive cattle herders make it up out of thin air? Let's think it through using common sense and realise that these passages are make belief stories that have been embellished in the consciousness of man for a while but honestly its time to wake up from this slumber, Haba! I dont know how a rational human or christian would be able to honestly explain this biblical gaffe!

You're very welcome, Sun God.

Anyway, because you Sun god cannot build an ark doesn't mean Noah and his sons with determination cannot accomplish a task that looks insurmountable to you probably due to lazyness and lack of skills on your part. Noah's ark wasn't a day's job but one that took decades to finish, fyi.

Since you are looking for something to spice up your life you can join this thread "the daily contradictions of the bible," I think you would feel very at home here. It will help remove the frustrations that drove you to nairaland Take care

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112751.0.html

Heheheeheeeeee! I knew it was just a matter of time before the DELUSIONAL CHRISTIAN SQUAD throws out one of its errant body guards and guess what its a female member! Its makes it more palatable to verbally rape you and throw you back to your delusional squad and help you and your fellow christian cohorts to come back with a more plausible argument.

[Anyway, because you Sun god cannot build an ark doesn't mean Noah and his sons with determination cannot accomplish a task that looks insurmountable to you probably due to lazyness and lack of skills on your part. Noah's ark wasn't a day's job but one that took decades to finish, fyi.

Hmm, laziness and lack of skills huh! and also determination on the part of 8 people huh!

Rubbish

The ship was stated to be 450 feet long and 75 feet wide and 45 feet high? right! now see the idiocy of your claims of dtermination and skill!

1. Wood is not structurally stong enough to build a vessel of that size. Even iron and bronze are too weak. You have to have modern steels to build a ship that big that won't break in half at the first wave. Even the navy's of the world tried building larger wooden ships in the early 19th century and proved by experiment that they aren't sound talkless of 8 people in 4,350 B.C. Besides how many FORESTS not bushes did Noah and his 3 sons have to have destroyed to build this gigantic thing?

2. The Bible tells us of the way humanity was rescued from the flood by a man called Noah, who was forewarned of the flood by God, and was instructed to build a large boat, or Ark, in which he should carry two (or more) of every kind of living thing. (Genesis 6:9 et seq.). The Bible also tells us the dimensions of the Ark; "This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks." (Genesis 6:15-16). We are also told that the rain lasted for forty days and forty nights, after which the flood waters lasted a further 150 days. That makes a total of 190 days for which Noah and the animals were living inside the Ark.

Let us examine this account, and see if it is plausible. Firstly we will examine the case for building such a vessel, and then we shall examine the plausibility of gathering and storing all these animals at the story claims.


Boat building is a very difficult and skilled discipline. The Bible does not say if Noah had any profession, or indeed if he had any previous experience at boat building, but let us assume for sake of argument that he was fully proficient.

Building a boat of that size on his own would have been quite a task. Let us assume that his 3 children also helped too, reducing the time by a factor of four. Sadly the Bible doesn't tell us how long it took to build the Ark ( Contrary to stillwaters claim that it took decades)  , (Another silly example of how christian apologists fabricate stories and facts and if left unchecked for the next 20 years could find its way into the bible, lol)  but we could at least estimate it. Bear in mind that Noah would not have had access to any sort of advanced tools, probably not even a saw.

Now this boat has to be strong enough to hold elephants and the like. Let's estimate how much wood this would take.

Well the boat was 450 feet long. Let's assume an average tree is 30 feet tall and three feet thick. That means that, just to build the outside of the boat we would require over two hundred tree trunks. That's assuming they just use the tree trunks without splitting them - remember we're dealing with elephants here so the wood needs to be pretty strong. Now Noah didn't have modern tools, so we could probably say that it would take him the best part of a day to chop down a tree, chop off all the side branches, neaten it up and carry it back to the Ark. That means he's spent two thirds of a year just chopping down trees. That's ignoring the fact that moving all that wood a significant distance is going to become prohibitively difficult. Trees weigh an awful lot.

Building a modern ship takes years. The QE2, for example, took over two years to build in a large commercial dockyard employing thousands of people with modern equipment. Here we're considering one man and his three sons without so much as a screwdriver to their name. This is going to take an extremely long time. During that time the Ark would have needed to be waterproofed, protected from the many different kinds of problem to which wood is susceptible such as woodworm and mildew, and also protected from vandals and troublemakers intent on destroying Noah's project.

Furthermore, wood is not a particularly strong material, compared to modern ship-building materials such as steel. To build a boat of the dimensions indicated in the Genesis story seems impossible without some sort of metal framework holding it together.

Finally, the largest wooden ship ever built was the US.S. Wyoming, built in the first decade of the twentiath century with modern shipbuilding methods. It was more than 100 feet shorter than Noah's ark is claimed to have been. This ship represented a tremendous feat of engineering, and posed several substantial construction problems. Most notably, it required large iron strapping for support, just to hold the boat together. There is no possible way Noah could have built a boat 450 feet long which held together under its own weight, let alone also carried hundreds of thousands of animals, and floated on the tempestuous seas of the Biblical flood!

As an very amusing illustration of how difficult it would be for Noah to have built a boat of the dimensions given in the Bible, this page describes a modern attempt to rebuild the Ark according to its given dimensions. Note the following requirements;


3,000 tons of cement
Five bulldozers
76 cement pillars
34 sway-brace pillars
4-foot high, 9-inch wide foundation wall
Steel reinforcement rod
Anchor bolts
Substantial steel superstructure

This will take at least 29 years to construct. Then how on earth did Noah and his 3 kids plus women, heheehe construct this ark especially bearing in mind that slob Noah was probably getting old?


As you continue thinking about it, the questions keep coming.

For example, how did Noah build the boat? How could four men and four women find, harvest, season, transport, cut, shape, assemble and seal all of the trees needed for a ship 450 feet long and 75 feet wide? That is a huge ship. For comparison, the Mayflower (which brought the Pilgrims from England to America) was only about 95 feet long, 25 feet wide and displaced 180 tons. [ref] The Mayflower was a big boat able to hold over 100 people, but it was a tiny dot compared to the ark.

Using the simplest multiplication, the ark would encompass about 14 Mayflowers, and would therefore weigh at least 2 1/2  million Kilograms. However, because the ark is so much larger, it would have to be far stronger than the Mayflower, making it far heavier. The very largest ships built at the height of the wooden shipbuilding era (the late 1800s) had a maximum keel length of about 250 feet, and the ark is nearly twice that big. This was an amazing vessel. And it was all built by four men and four women.

It is impossible to imagine that eight people could build a boat that big. It is also impossible to imagine a 450 foot long wooden vessel.

The most idiotic aspect of this story has to do with the age of Noah at that time.

The first solution can be found with Genesis 5:32
And Noah was five hundred years old and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Unless Noah had triplets we can look at this passage and determine that Noah began to have the first of these three (important) sons at the age of 500.

We can determine that Noah did not have triplets from Genesis 10:21

And children were born also to Shem, …,the brother of Japheth the elder.

The above can also be translated as ",the older brother of Japheth."
So we don't know for certain if Shem was the oldest, middle, or youngest. We do know that there was an age gap between at least two of the brothers mentioned in 10:21

We could conclude from the data that Shem was born when Noah was 502 years old, and Japheth or Ham were born when Noah was 500 years old.

Imagine a 500 YEAR OLD MAN BUILDING AN ARK THAT BIG

C'mon this has to be the greatest hocus pocus ever told to man kind and the worst part is that i havent even dwelt on the number of animals and space it would require to hold 2 animals of all kind and the feeding!

So much for still water and her laziness and determination.

Better go back to your pastors, priests or motivational speakers or who ever to educate you more and provide more ammunination to back up this biblical fallacy because so far, your embarrassing your christian community when you cant even defend what your faith preaches, lol

there is another problem of VENTILATION, the ark only had one window, 

Gen 6:16, you shall make a window for the ark,

whoever wrote or redacted that silly Noahic story was delusional

IDINRETE:

there is another problem of VENTILATION, the ark only had one window,

Gen 6:16, you shall make a window for the ark,

whoever wrote or redacted that silly Noahic story was delusional

Haaaaaaaaaaaa

And to think Billions of christians world wide actually believe in such insanity speaks alot about their state of mind and grandiose delusions.



The best part of it is that whenever something embarassing springs up from the bible that is unexplainable, they quietly withdraw to their shells and say "god know best" "we shouldnt question his work or story" even if the story is too unbelievable to be true and the height of mumbo jumbo!

Shame on you christians, shame on you!

Wow, someone is ready for a fight, such energy and long speech, you must have prepared hard .

Heheheeheeeeee! I knew it was just a matter of time before the DELUSIONAL CHRISTIAN SQUAD throws out one of its errant body guards and guess what its a female member! Its makes it more palatable to verbally rape you and throw you back to your delusional squad and help you and your fellow christian cohorts to come back with a more plausible argument.

I knew it was just a matter of time your true colors would outshine your initial post of trying to be sarcastic but meanwhile you were desperately trying to have a moment of fame. I have given you the opportunity, now you can begin dancing your native dance with your traditional costume. First of all I'm nobody's bodyguard. To each his own. Secondly I find it detestable you used such words at me for being female. You might think yourself funny or rather sound intelligent but never you stoop to the lowest of words in reference to my answers to your points in future.  My gender should not be a yardstick to resort to insolence in order to relay your point. I detest the word rape no matter the context of it being used. If you hate christianity, do not make it into a subject to demean my sex. That I will most definitely not take kindly with you, ok.

Delusions *yawns* the usual atheist rabble and antagonistic word to make them feel rational. Lmao. Come up with another word please. That one has lost its savor . As I said earlier on, since your lazy butt cannot imagine a ship made of wood that is far beyond your understanding, spare me your myopic state of mind and join the thread I referred you to earlier on and spew your logical mind to us once more. I enjoy knowing you can't deny the fact you never heard of Jesus. Cheers and have a jolly ride on your ark.

stillwater:

Wow, someone is ready for a fight, such energy and long speech, you must have prepared hard .

I knew it was just a matter of time your true colors would outshine your initial post of trying to be sarcastic but meanwhile you were desperately trying to have a moment of fame. I have given you the opportunity, now you can begin dancing your native dance with your traditional costume. First of all I'm nobody's bodyguard. To each his own. Secondly I find it detestable you used such words at me for being female. You might think yourself funny or rather sound intelligent but never you stoop to the lowest of words in reference to my answers to your points in future. My gender should not be a yardstick to resort to insolence in order to relay your point. I detest the word rape no matter the contest of it being used. If you hate christianity, do not make it into a subject to demean my sex. That I will most definitely not take kindly with you, ok.

Delusions *yawns* the usual atheist rabble and antagonistic word to make them feel rational. Lmao. Come up with another word please. That one has lost its savor . As I said earlier on, since your lazy butt cannot imagine a ship made of wood that is far beyond your understanding, spare me your myopic state of mind and join the thread I referred you to earlier on and spew your logical mind to us once more. I enjoy knowing you can't deny the fact you never heard of Jesus. Cheers and have a jolly ride on your ark.

This is definately the height of idiocy. You really cannot even offer a whimper of hope to your fellow christian army by coming out with a tangible defense to negate this grossly unbelievable story of Noah's Ark, instead you choose to beat around the bush by talking about sexism and being a female blah blah blah as if that has got anything to do with the lies that christians spew out everyday.

What is more reprehensible is the way you choose to dodge the bullet with innuendoes like dancing with native costumes and only imbecilic minds can stoop so low to try and reverse a topic that doesnt even show an iota of intelligence in your supposedly impeccable gift of christian garb!

Besides your poor knowledge of the English language should also be likened to the primitive goat herders that wrote the bible. if i remember correctly i said i would "VERBALLY RAPE YOU" I choose my phrases correctly and if you don't understand what it means, then i can safely conclude that your from the poor school of knowledge just like your biblical authors.

Anyway staying with the topic at hand, you actually are a very very poor imitation of a christian apologist. For you to confirm that a ship that large can be made with wood alone without it posing any difficulties really shows how dense you are just like your biblical authors. With the over whelming evidence to show how impossible and implausible it is, you still retirate such banalities which much aplomb, lol, How laughable!

Also talking about being delusional is something you should consider very very seriously. I have said you and all the christian apologists are delusional to buy into such mumbo jumbo like the ark and the burden of proof is on you to tell me am wrong and point out how delusional i am in my thinking, but instead, you go down without a whimper of a fight and give me the most ridiculous answer ever conjured by a christian before and you still expect me not to believe that your an upgrade in delusional matters?

Also i have heard of jesus, buddah, janus, venus and a host of imaginary pagan gods and the fact that you asked me whether i have heard of him still makes me wonder if you just read your bible like a zombie without asking any rational questions? I have more than enough proofs to show jesus doesnt exist just like leprechauns, zombies, vampires and Santa Claus. So if your telling me whether i have heard of jesus, i really have to question your state of mind and probably pass you off as a nut -job!     

Once again grow out of your ignorance and explain why the ark is not the most senseless story you have ever heard instead of beating around the bush aimlessly and taking that ever tired christian excuse of ignoring the question when you don't have a plausible answer to defend a faith you so hypocritically love to expound to people just as ignorant as you!

Psssssssssssfffffff!

p:s:I Am still waiting for the threat that you said you won't take kindly with me! Anyway i wont be suprised. Its a christian thing. Remember god said "Vengeance is mine"

Well not all christians are literal believers in the Bible. There are a lot of Christians that take stories such as Noah's Ark as largely metaphorical. It should be possible to pass the message of Christianity - love for it other and belief in God - without insisting on a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Tasma:

Well not all christians are literal believers in the Bible. There are a lot of Christians that take stories such as Noah's Ark as largely metaphorical. It should be possible to pass the message of Christianity - love for it other and belief in God - without insisting on a literal interpretation of the Bible.

METAPHORICAL!

I wonder what the pope, pastors or church ministers would say after reading your post

I guess that sums it up nicely to say the whole bible is just a literal piece of fiction or unrefined senseless garbage that shouldnt be taken seriously since it is largely filled with metaphorical stories that would largely confuse your head if you for one minute think of it as a true life story. The story of Noah's Ark is just a classic example of how extreme man kind has been bamboozled to believe such hypocrisy by christians and pointing it out seems to embarrass them even more especially when no one ( Not even the self professed Jehovah witnesses, pentecostal fundamentalists, catholic rabble rousers or white garmenters, lol, May be Imams have a better explanation for this since it totally devoid of logic) can come up with such a tangible defense.

Am glad some christians can actually speak the truth for once no matter how hard it might seem and painful to christian apologists.

The bible can be likened to the Charly Boy Show's slogan which says "If you believe anything that is in there, you definately must get your head Checked"

Hello my little grammar fairy. How cute your wings are Have you actually finished venting, I hope not . Don't worry stillwater is here to keep you company. By the way who brought gender into this. Certainly not me . Let me retrace your steps to your earlier post

Heheheeheeeeee! I knew it was just a matter of time before the DELUSIONAL CHRISTIAN SQUAD throws out one of its errant body guards and guess what its a female member! Its makes it more palatable to verbally rape you and throw you back to your delusional squad and help you and your fellow christian cohorts to come back with a more plausible argument

.

Would it have made it less palatable to use the phrase verbally rape if it were male, please do tell

Mock me all you want as a christian I was clearly ascertained of that and it would take more than the usual delusional mode of escape of an atheist to ruffle my feathers concerning my faith. Cheers, Please make your next post longer, you kind of slowed down on the last one, cheers See you soon.

do you know Sun God, IMHO, if u lived in Noah's time, you certainly would have missed the ark and drowned!!!

@Sun god
Am not a christain but you're very wrong if you think the earth was not drowned, or there was no ark built but a mere mythology.
I believe in bibical stories especially the one that is comparable to the Qu''ran itself. According to the Qu'ran, Noah(p.b.u.h) was building the ark because his people were rebellious and All'ah justified His wrath upon them by causing the earth to shower rain from the heavens and from itself. The like of two creatures were taken, people who believed with him; BUT his son was not saved because
Noah said:"O my son, come and sail with us";
The son said:"I will stay high above and I will not be of those drowned"
Noah said:" This day none will be saved except whom my Lord have had mercy"
So he was of the drowned.
Whether you believe it or not is your choice, there are many doubters of the Scripture (Qu'ran) but[b] in the end they will [/b] blame none except themselves (says All'ah) for the disbelievers We have prepared a shameful punishment.

And you will know who is deluded, us or you! This is not support or against Christains but rather an attestation of the Scripture.

@ Sun God,
funny enough a lot of church priests and scholars - even in the Catholic church - have reservations about some of the stories in the Bible. All you need to do is discuss with someone who has actually been to a seminary or studied Bible theology. If you discuss this topic with many members of "new" churches you probably will not get insightful discuss.

In summary like I said I think the message of Christianity should be seen in the life and lifestyle of the Christian and not in endless argument about literal meanings to Biblical stories.

@frizy

Haaaaaaaaaaaaa! Coming from someone that believes in 72 virgins waiting for you in heaven is arguably the biggest joke of the day! I purposely refuse to indulge in the issue of the quoran or mohammed or the grand delusions of the the quoran because its more laughable than the christians to say the least. Your shameful plagiarism of the christian faith is even more appalling and i dont have time to deal with the plagiarizers. I rather deal with the real authors of the hog-wash called the bible. So dont even bother to engage me in an atheist/ islamic discuss because i dont believe in virgins talkless of 72 of them all waiting for me!  

Anyway to the topic at hand. The grand delusion of the noah's ark

According to the Qu'ran, Noah(p.b.u.h) was building the ark because his people were rebellious and All'ah justified His wrath upon them by causing the earth to shower rain from the heavens and from itself. The like of two creatures were taken, people who believed with him; BUT his son was not saved because

When they say common sense is not that common, i strongly believe you fall under that category of gullible religious apologists. For even coming out to defend such psycho-babble that even christian apologists cannot even raise a wimper of their voice to defend such absurdities shows how easily you would love to the sacrificial lamb of the christian apologists.

How can you open your mouth and proclaim that Allah Justified his wrath upon them by raining showers and to put it more succiently the christians would have it, "made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights to kill and wipe out a generation"

How can you turn a blind eye to the monsterous atrocities of this. Killing a whole generation of thousands or millions of people just because he was angry? how can you not see the genocide or pogrom commited by one the christians or even you call as allah as so loving, forgiving and merciful? Does this act of cowardice, destruction or dispeakable act of wickedness justify someone to worship such a callous monster?

While it might sound right to only look at noah and read the passage passively, you should also look at the meaning of the wrath and havoc god caused on mankind by the killing and senseless murder by god. No one who ever existed and wielded such power can be this evil. Even Hitler would look back at his crimes and say "Well god murdered more people than me so why are you castigating me?"

Did you for once think of the babies and pregnant women that god killed in their thousands? Babies and little children that couldnt differentiate between right and wrong! Rwanda genocide, Saddam's chemical weapons, sierraleone and liberia wars, bosnia wars, the biafra wars are childs play compared to the mass destruction perpertuated by god or allah! Babies Haba!

This seems an incredibly complex way to go about ridding the world of sinners, doesn't it? Not only that, it doesn't seem to have actually worked. If God intended to re-breed the human race from the pure and virtuous Noah, why do we see so much "sin" in the world today? Surely God would have foreseen the outcome? I suppose it could be argued that the troubles in the world today are as nothing compared with that in Noah's time, but I don't think the people around Noah had problems with drugs, schoolchildren with assault rifles, and weapons of mass destruction (apart from God, of course). If the world today is at least as bad as Noah's world, why did God bother? Maybe he cannot see the future?

So dont even come here and try and justify such atrocities and worship such a monster because no one capable of such evil is worth respecting or being treated as a living god. No sane and rational mind can comprehend such a a diabolical being as something that i should pray too.

[color=#006600][/color] Do you guys know the said Noah was an albino? I think there's a priory of sion member here and i think it's Sun God,kinda strange username and strange topic to begin which concerns the concept of Christainity and the sovereignity of the bible.

@still water

Mock me all you want as a christian I was clearly ascertained of that and it would take more than the usual delusional  mode of escape of an atheist to ruffle my feathers concerning my faith. Cheers, Please make your next post longer, you kind of slowed down on the last one, cheers   See you soon

You remind me of all those little sunday sunday girls that wear their sunday best and carry a 2b note book and look all that holy and innocent on a sunday morning that would probably sit in the front row in church, sing the loudest and pray the hardest for all to notice and jot down everything pastor lagbaja has said and ponder on it so seriously in church that you would even be one day short of being an usher or assistant minister but outside the church, your an embarrasment to your faith because you cant even defend what your pastor taught you. You can even dub from your 2b notebook of jottings to even defend your faith because you know it bullshit and your lack the understanding of what you preach. But when they ask you are you a born again, You will be the first person to say "I have accepted jesus as my lord and saviour" but you dont even know how to defend what you accept.


Just shows how delusional, obtuse and irrational you can be. All i asked was to justify the story and give it some credibility but all you have done so far is dodge the bullet and make matters worse for more atheists to laugh at the imbecility of christians.

Once again thanks for being an embarassment to the christian community. We love to pick on little hypocritics like you

Carlosein:

do you know Sun God, IMHO, if u lived in Noah's time, you certainly would have missed the ark and drowned!!!

@carlosein

Your probably right. Since god had a strong bias for young men under the ages of 500 like Noah or his sons who were around 100 and something. There was no way a young man either good or bad would have escaped into the ark. Lets not even think of the over 4,000 species of animals in the ark that finally made it almost impossible for anyone to enter.

Even if jesus was around then, he would have still massacred him too. jesus was definately less than 100 years. It was just a plain bias again old men V youthful trendy and urbane young men and women. Talkless of the infanticide that he commited against babies, Pheeew, What a repugnant god to follow!

Sun God:

@frizy

Haaaaaaaaaaaaa! Coming from someone that believes in 72 virgins waiting for you in heaven is arguably the biggest joke of the day! I purposely refuse to indulge in the issue of the quoran or the great prophet or the grand delusions of the the quoran because its more laughable than the christians to say the least. Your shameful plagiarism of the christian faith is even more appalling and i don't have time to deal with the plagiarizers. I rather deal with the real authors of the hog-wash called the bible. So don't even bother to engage me in an atheist/ great religious discuss because i don't believe in virgins talkless of 72 of them all waiting for me!  

I can see you're (very2X) ignorant. The Qu'ran seems to delude many who don't believe the message. The Qu'ran, Torah and Gospel(given to Jesus) were messages from Moses, Jesus and inspired in Mohamme'd. God is the author of the Qu'ran, for every single thought you may have against it, it answers for itself.  The Qu'ran is not a plagiarised copy of the Bible rather a Confirmation of whatever Scriptures that came before it. Use your wits if God relates a message will He not take in record the events of that has happened in the past? Or is the Qu'ran written in the biblical way of the saying: There lived. . . Son of this . . . Son of that.
Though you may critize the Qu'ran can the head of your atheist movement write a book with no detect/conflict or errors in his philosophy. Muhamme'd was an illerate and no scholar/writer can write its like. Never

You don't have to believe in 72 virgins waiting for you, you should be expecting 19 guards of Hell to keep you in.

The grand delusion of the noah's ark

The grandiose delusion is only on one who feels his believe is right when he is very incorrect.

When they say common sense is not that common, i strongly believe you fall under that category of gullible religious apologists. For even coming out to defend such psycho-babble that even christian apologists cannot even raise a wimper of their voice to defend such absurdities shows how easily you would love to the sacrificial lamb of the christian apologists.

This is simple, am not defending christains, am only proving that the Noahs' story is true. Christian scholars may not have prove because their concerned more about the teaching of Paul. For Mus'lims the prophet Muhamme'd explains what was inspired so Musli'ms scholars have sound evidences which cannot be falsified, if you read tasfirs(commentaries) of the Qu'ran you will know that it is true.

How can you open your mouth and proclaim that God Justified his wrath upon them by raining showers and to put it more succiently the christians would have it, "made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights to kill and wipe out a generation"

As unbeliever like you, do you think God doesn't requite the wrong of people?He can do all things, and His mercy has over come His anger. When people do evil things hurricanes,sunami,earthquake occurs. There are so many verses in the Qu'ran make Mus'lims know. But the Believers are saved. The reason why Nigeria has no such thing despite of great sins is that they are still some people God loves living there or God may command it one day( I pray not).

While it might sound right to only look at noah and read the passage passively, you should also look at the meaning of the wrath and havoc god caused on mankind by the killing and senseless murder by god. No one who ever existed and wielded such power can be this evil. Even Hitler would look back at his crimes and say "Well god murdered more people than me so why are you castigating me?"

Hilter is different and am sure he is regretting it already in this grave.God has the right to do His wish, none can change it, but not unjustly, He is best of those who are Just.Their punishment was justified.

Did you for once think of the babies and pregnant women that god killed in their thousands? Babies and little children that couldnt differentiate between right and wrong! Rwanda genocide, Saddam's chemical weapons, sierraleone and liberia wars, bosnia wars, the biafra wars are childs play compared to the mass destruction perpertuated by god or god! Babies Haba!

Unborn/unmatured children there is no sin. Muhamme'd the greatest man ever on earth explained how God will deal justly among them on the day of judgement.

This seems an incredibly complex way to go about ridding the world of sinners, doesn't it? Not only that, it doesn't seem to have actually worked. If God intended to re-breed the human race from the pure and virtuous Noah, why do we see so much "sin" in the world today? Surely God would have foreseen the outcome? I suppose it could be argued that the troubles in the world today are as nothing compared with that in Noah's time, but I don't think the people around Noah had problems with drugs, schoolchildren with assault rifles, and weapons of mass destruction (apart from God, of course). If the world today is at least as bad as Noah's world, why did God bother? Maybe he cannot see the future?

The Qu'ran says: Get out of the ship O Noah, there will be among nations, and they will live and enjoy the earth a long-while but We will seize them suddenly for their sins. (This nations may be the present).

So don't even come here and try and justify such atrocities and worship such a monster because no one capable of such evil is worth respecting or being treated as a living god. No sane and rational mind can comprehend such a a diabolical being as something that i should pray too.

You mean punishment shouldn't exist.No Divine Laws nothing, we should just live and die?You're obviously deduled. Whether you worship God or not, God is Independent, He asks you no fees. And His reprobation is painful.

@frizy

I will try and gloss over your convoluted grammar and try to make sense of what you have just written. It may be hard sha but i go try, sigh!

The Qu'ran seems to delude many who don't believe the message. The Qu'ran, Torah and Gospel(given to Jesus) were messages from Moses, Jesus and inspired in Mohamme'd

So in a nut shell, your saying islam came last since it was the last faith to have any iota of thinking to establish its own first? Ok i will take you for your humility

And trust me, the messages passed by moses and jesus are the most primitive and grossly unbelievable messages ever trumped up anyone. Your doing your faith no good by refering to the quoran as messages from primitive goat herders.

The Qu'ran is not a plagiarised copy of the Bible rather a Confirmation of whatever Scriptures that came before it

Hmm this is also an interesting preposition, bearing in mind the christian faith is totally the king of a plagiarized version of pagan faith which actually brings nothing new in any way.

Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support their hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

While the possibility exists that an actual Jesus lived, a more likely possibility reveals that a mythology could have arrived totally out of earlier mythologies. Although we have no evidence for a historical Jesus, we certainly have many accounts for the mythologies of the Middle East and Egypt during the first century and before. Many of these stories appear similar to the Christ saviour story.

Just before and during the first century, the Jews had prophesied about an upcoming Messiah based on Jewish scripture. Their beliefs influenced many of their followers. We know that powerful beliefs can create self-fulfilling prophesies, and surely this proved just as true in ancient times. It served as a popular dream expressed in Hebrew Scripture for the promise of an "end-time" with a savior to lead them to the promised land. Indeed, Roman records show executions of several would-be Messiahs, (but not a single record mentions a Jesus). Many ancients believed that there could come a final war against the "Sons of Darkness"-- the Romans.

This then could very well have served as the ignition and flame for the future growth of Christianity. We know that the early Christians lived within pagan communities. Jewish scriptural beliefs coupled with the pagan myths of the time give sufficient information about how such a religion could have formed. Many of the Hellenistic and pagan myths parallel so closely to the alleged Jesus that to ignore its similarities means to ignore the mythological beliefs of history. Dozens of similar savior stories propagated the minds of humans long before the alleged life of Jesus. Virtually nothing about Jesus "the Christ" came to the Christians as original or new.

For example, the religion of Zoroaster, founded circa 628-551 B.C.E. in ancient Persia, roused mankind in the need for hating a devil, the belief of a paradise, last judgment and resurrection of the dead. Mithraism, an offshoot of Zoroastrianism probably influenced early Christianity. The Magi described in the New Testament appears as Zoroastrian priests. Note the word "paradise" came from the Persian pairidaeza.

The Egyptian mythical Horus, god of light and goodness has many parallels to Jesus. For some examples:

Horus and the Father as one
Horus, the Father seen in the Son
Horus, light of the world, represented by the symbolical eye, the sign of salvation.
Horus served the way, the truth, the life by name and in person
Horus baptized with water by Anup (Jesus baptized with water by John)
Horus the Good Shepherd
Horus as the Lamb (Jesus as the Lamb)
Horus as the Lion (Jesus as the Lion)
Horus identified with the Tat Cross (Jesus with the cross)
The trinity of Atum the Father, Horus the Son, Ra the Holy Spirit
Horus the avenger (Jesus who brings the sword)
Horus the afflicted one
Horus as life eternal
Twelve followers of Horus as Har-Khutti (Jesus' 12 disciples)


The mythical Messiah is Horus in the Osirian Mythos; Har-Khuti in the Sut-Typhonian; Khunsu in that of Amen-Ra; Iu in the cult of Atum-Ra; and the Christ of the Gospels is an amalgam of all these characters.

Osiris, Hercules, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus and others compare to the Christian myth andl served as pre-Christian sun gods, yet all allegedly had gods for fathers, virgins for mothers; had their births announced by stars; got born on the solstice around December 25th; had tyrants who tried to kill them in their infancy; met violent deaths; rose from the dead; and nearly all got worshiped by "wise men" and had allegedly fasted for forty days.

The pre-Christian cult of Mithra had a deity of light and truth, son of the Most High, fought against evil, presented the idea of the Logos. Pagan Mithraism mysteries had the burial in a rock tomb, resurrection, sacrament of bread & water (Eucharist), the marking on the forehead with a mystic mark, the symbol of the Rock, the Seven Spirits and seven stars, all before the advent of Christianity.

Even Justin Martyr recognized the analogies between Christianity and Paganism. To the Pagans, he wrote: "When we say that the Word, who is first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus)."

Virtually all of the mythical accounts of a savior Jesus have parallels to past pagan mythologies which existed long before Christianity and from the Jewish scriptures that we now call the Old Testament. The accounts of these myths say nothing about historical reality, but they do say a lot about believers, how they believed, and how their beliefs spread.

In the book The Jesus Puzzle, the biblical scholar, Earl Doherty, presents not only a challenge to the existence of an historical Jesus but reveals that early pre-Gospel Christian documents show that the concept of Jesus sprang from non-historical spiritual beliefs of a Christ derived from Jewish scripture and Hellenized myths of savior gods. Nowhere do any of the New Testament epistle writers describe a human Jesus, including Paul. None of the epistles mention a Jesus from Nazareth, an earthly teacher, or as a human miracle worker. Nowhere do we find these writers quoting Jesus. Nowhere do we find them describing any details of Jesus' life on earth or his followers. Nowhere do we find the epistle writers even using the word "disciple" (they of course use the term "apostle" but the word simply means messenger, as Paul saw himself). Except for two well known interpolations, Jesus always gets presented as a spiritual being that existed before all time with God, and that knowledge of Christ came directly from God or as a revelation from the word of scripture. Doherty writes, "Christian documents outside the Gospels, even at the end of the first century and beyond, show no evidence that any tradition about an earthly life and ministry of Jesus were in circulation."

Furthermore, the epistle to the Hebrews (8:4), makes it explicitly clear that the epistle writer did not believe in a historical Jesus: "If He [Jesus] had been on earth, He would not be a priest."

These early historical documents can prove nothing about an actual Jesus but they do show an evolution of belief derived from varied and diverse concepts of Christianity, starting from a purely spiritual form of Christ to a human figure who embodied that spirit, as portrayed in the Gospels. The New Testament stories appears as an eclectic hodgepodge of Jewish, Hellenized and pagan stories compiled by pietistic believers to appeal to an audience for their particular religious times.

With this in mind, i hope you frizy can comfortably say again that islam is an amalgamation of false pagan pre christian beliefs which the quoran gladly would say is a Confirmation of whatever Scriptures that came before it 

Though you may critize the Qu'ran can the head of your atheist movement write a book with no detect/conflict or errors in his philosophy. Muhamme'd was an illerate and no scholar/writer can write its like. Never

1. No atheist will be so dumb as to interpolate events that never took place and gladly hang unto straws when it is non existent. We think like rational human beings and question the veracity of claims and need evidence to suppose those claims. When it becomes imaginary or shaky, an atheist will gladly step away and not add to the controversy but when the thesist like you continue to hammer that need to follow your religion, we pick out the loop holes and expose your stupidity.

2. No atheist write books without opening the book to scrutiny and criticisms. That is the difference between atheists and religious apologists. We are open to question "how, why, when and what". Religious apologists accept the bible and quoran with such stoic and glibble stuborness that when ever they are faced with mirad of questions about their faith, they only resort to either violence, curses, false prayers, shock and disbelief and are quick to call the person a satanist, athiest, devilish, infidel, anti-christ, your hell will be hotter than the gas cooker, blah blah blah, as if that changes the question of "how, why, when and what"

3. Also am glad you confessed that mohammed was an illiterate because i have being shouting on this forum that these authors were primitive goat herders who saw the world from their very primitive state of mind and cannot be used today to justify the happenings of the mordern day world.

Besides i listen to educated men with loads of rational thinkings and not primitive illiterates like mohammed and all the writers in the bible, pfffffffss  

This is simple, am not defending christains, am only proving that the Noahs' story is true.

How can you say your not defending christians and still saying that psycho babble story of noah is true? Talk about being delusional in a tautological way!

Despite all the evidence that i have raised that no one has counter attacked, you still raise your voice to say its true. Kai!

As unbeliever like you, do you think God doesn't requite the wrong of people?He can do all things, and His mercy has over come His anger. When people do evil things hurricanes,sunami,earthquake occurs. There are so many verses in the Qu'ran make Mus'lims know. But the Believers are saved. The reason why Nigeria has no such thing despite of great sins is that they are still some people God loves living there or God may command it one day( I pray not).

Rubbish! Are you freaking delusional or what

How can you say that because people do bad things, ( hurricanes,sunami,earthquake occurs)? This is probably more senseless than what those primitive cattle rearers have written in the quoran or bible. How do you justify killing 200000 in hurricane katrina that washed away churches and mosques and destroyed temples and other so called god artifacts especially the killing of good people? Are you saying all the people that died in the hurricane were bad people? Why did pastor bimbo odukoya die in a plane crash?, hmm let me guess she was bad so god couldnt miraculously save her? Bullshit. All the typhoons, twisters, earthquakes, floods and every conceivable natural disaster is caused by god and he is mercilessly wicked to kill people during his fit of tantrums that results in these mishap and you say its because people are evil.

Hilter is different and am sure he is regretting it already in this grave.God has the right to do His wish, none can change it, but not unjustly, He is best of those who are Just.Their punishment was justified.

Nonsense!

A murderer is a murder! Both god and hitler are the same thing and he's even worse since the quoran and bible says he is well experienced in being a serial killer that massacred people for over 5,000 years or so So dont even try to pamper god over hitler or saddam or abacha. They all belong to that club of mass murders and killers!

In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes about one of his early massacres:

So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had commanded through Moses and Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died.

Here the death of the children is directly at the hand of God.

In Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word picture:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with
arrows.

They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.
What a lovely image.

In Jeremiah chapter 49, verse 20, God paints a similar picture:

Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made against Edom and the purposes which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman: Even the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away; surely their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the sound of their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of their cry shall be heard at the Red Sea.

In Hosea chapter 13, God paints a similar picture:

Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. Shocking and disgusting

In Numbers chapter 31, God paints a similar picture:

Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live? Behold, these caused the people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or, and so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Here Moses, acting as an agent of God, specifies that thousands of male babies and children be killed, as well as thousands of women. The Bible states in verse 35 that the captured women numbered "thirty-two thousand persons in all, women who had not known man by lying with him." This was not a small attack. Tens of thousands men, women and children were massacred.

In Deuteronomy Chapter 3 we find this:

Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at Edrei. The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children. But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.

They massacred all the men, women and children in 60 cities at God's request.

Then there is Noah's flood, in which God massacred every single child on the face of the earth.

It is appropriate at this point to speak to Christians, especially the "casual Christians" who go to church occasionally because it seems like the "right thing to do." Most Christians have never read the Bible. They have no idea that the God of the Bible is a huge proponent of slavery, or that God hates women, or that God finds the annihilation of small children so enthralling. Should we, as human beings living in the modern world, be worshipping a God like this? 

Doesn't it feel odd to find all of this material in the Bible? Especially the quote from Moses in Numbers 31. You may recall that the sixth commandment is, "Thou shalt not kill."

What does God have against children? Why would an all-loving, all-knowing being act in this way? In the case of Herod's massacre, a religious person might say, "God had to do it to fulfill a prophecy in the Bible." But that makes no sense, because God could have left the prophecy out.

A normal person, after reading passages like these, is left first with a deep sense of disgust. Any normal human being knows that these acts are monstrous. What we are seeing here is not a loving God, but instead a demonic executioner working at a massive scale. Why would anyone worship this appalling monster?

A normal person then asks the obvious question: Did God actually. But i guess your not normal and extremely delusional to assume god didnt do any of it. So much for a merciful god

Unborn/unmatured children there is no sin. Muhamme'd the greatest man ever on earth explained how God will deal justly among them on the day of judgement.

This is an extremely senseless post so i'll just gloss over it

The Qu'ran says: Get out of the ship O Noah, there will be among nations, and they will live and enjoy the earth a long-while but We will seize them suddenly for their sins. (This nations may be the present).

Please explain this mumbo jumbo because i dont understand a word of it except the fake allusion to noah who obviously couldnt exist at the age of 600 and still build a 5 million pound ship with only 7 more people.

And as your whining about punishment, punishment exists to correct wrongs and act as a deterrent to future wrong doers. What has wiping out a whole planet got to do with punishment? What has a senseless massacre of pregnant women and babies got to do with punishment?

Please go and throw that book away and read something more constructive  say " harry porter novels". Because you have a long way to go before you reach advanced religious books!

@son god
With all your knowledge of the world's religious history you've nothing to show. I mean please, If you think God is not worth serving, will you die one day? How do you explain your creation? Was your dad's fluid (sperm) made by any other than God? Can you create anything at all? Whatever you call rational thinking should evolve around this.
Who makes the rain to fall? Why is it that if there is drought in a land, the God-fearing ones prays and rain falls?
You may believe that there is no god, no be today- many people have said that, but they are reaping the strive of their labor. Hell will rest their case, they will burn over and over and their flesh will be renewed.

Now that you're an atheist, you mock us now, God Himself mocks the disbelievers for their unbelief. There is nothing you can hide from Him, all their thought will be searched out and the enemies of All'ah will be thrown to the Blazing Fire!
I rest my case because arguing with you is (very2X) hopeless.

SEUN PLEASE SUSPEND sun god FOR 2 YEARS UNTIL HE RETHINKS HIS IRRATIONAL THOUGHTS THAT APPEARS RATIONAL TO HIM

@son god
I commend your logical, sound, and scientific analysis of the Noah story. Unfortunately, the religious ones are already attacking rather than providing a logical counter argument. Do not let them degrade this mind stimulating tread to an arena for religious attacks.
I have points to support the story of Noah, and I will try to make my points logical, scientific and devoid of any religious persuasions. I don't belong to any religion but at the same time I don't think that all the stories in the religious books are fallacies.
There are my points:
1.) The bible has gone through so many translations and it is possible that some things were lost to translation. IE the counting system. Perhaps when the story was written their counting system was different to what it was later translated to. Perhaps what they counted as 450 feet may be only 450 inches when translated to modern counting system. This is also evident in their ages -- perhaps 500 years to them may be only 50 years when translated to modern counting system. After all, today we use the roman callender which was not yet invented during the time of Noah.
2.) Scientific discoveries today point to the fact that there was once a great flood that covered almost the whole earth. I will research on this and give you the scientific write-ups. If you watch discovery channel, they spend a lot of time investigating this great flood. Perhaps this flood was the flood that Noah experienced.
3.) So many ancient cultures of the world tells the story of a great flood that once consumed the whole earth. Although some historians think that it is the same story that was plagiarized by different cultures. But, it could have been that the flood actually happened and was experienced by other societies whose survivors later wrote the stories. This is only logical, since if the flood was worldwide, it couldn't have only happened to Noah's society.

@frizy

After reading your post, i have to say i was wrong. Wrong in the sense that i have greatly offended myself for conversing with a teenager and i would be suprised if your up to 15 years sef, sigh

Your silly questions about how man came about is definately not what this topic is all about and the fact that you have been badly battered and bruised in respect of a religion you cant defend, doesnt mean you should avoid the topic and use style style to change mouth!

Anyway to summarize your topic about the evolution of man in one sentence, i would rather ask you back this question. "Who made god?" Because rations dont equate any form of reasonableness to the beginning of mankind and it will forever be a mystery till it has been solved logically and evidentially. Thats why you dont see free thinkers postulating about what made man and what didnt make mankind.

But the problem arises when you say god made man and your trying to shove it down the throats of rations to believe such cock and bull story, then we bare our fangs and begin to ask questions to validate the authencity of the claims. The moment it cant be substantiated, then its a fraud and the more you believe in that fraud, the more we see you as been extremely delusional.

You dont see me here attacking buddists or aztec sun god worshippers because they have kept their beliefs to themselves and not over take the world with it. In return, we respect their views and keep quiet. But the loud mouthed ones like islam and christianity would definately see the louder aspect of criticisms from us.

In a nut shell, there is no conclusive evidence to support the existence of god. You might be wondering why i havent tilted towards evolution yet. Its because there are still rough edges that needs to be sorted out before we accept it wholesomely, but compared to islam and christianity, they still have an iota of evidence of the existence of mankind compared to a cock and bull story that Adam just came out from the blues, pssssf!

You may believe that there is no god, no be today- many people have said that, but they are reaping the strive of their labor. Hell will rest their case, they will burn over and over and their flesh will be renewed.

Now that you're an atheist, you mock us now, God Himself mocks the disbelievers for their unbelief. There is nothing you can hide from Him, all their thought will be searched out and the enemies of All'ah will be thrown to the Blazing Fire!

Hell, haaaaaaaaaaaaa!

let me tell you what atheists or Rationals think of hell! I have an article written by a fellow rational that describes hell and i would share it with you, lol




[size=14pt]Why would Satan want us to repent[/size]?


Would Satan really want to torture you for doing his evil work? Surely he would give you a pat on the back and a pint of cold beer, not tie you to a rock and attack you with a cheesegrater. What's he going to say? "Aha! Right, you gave in to temptation and lived a life of Sin, just like I wanted you to. As punishment for disobeying God, and doing my work instead, I'm, erm, going to torture you, er, Hang on a minute, Have I got that right?"

We are always told "If you are Good, you will be rewarded in Heaven, if you are Bad you will be punished in Hell.". Well, unless Hell is full of Angels doing the torturing, it seems like the saying should be "If you are Good, you will be rewarded in Heaven, if you are Bad you will be rewarded in Hell.". You can understand why priests never tell you this when they are ranting on about Hellfire And Damnation.

Could it be that Lucifer is working under the direct orders of God? - "Now then, Luci old pal. I want you to get some big red horns and go tempt some mortals. If you succeed, you can inflict pain on them until they repent, when they can come here with me. Oh, and be careful not to let them know I put you up to it."

It should also be remembered that the Creator is supposedly omniscient. When he created the Angel Lucifer, he knew exactly what was going to happen (how could he not, if he is omniscient?). God created Evil, and created Satan as an instrument of Evil, and us mere mortals are the ones who are on the receiving end and get all the eternal torment. Might it not have been easier to simply not create Evil in the first place?

[size=14pt]Brimstone And Sulphur[/size]


There is a special toasty corner of Hell reserved for scumbag atheists like me, or so I'm told. If that's where I'm headed then I think it's only fair to cast a critical eye over the concept.

There are various definitions of Hell according to which religion you follow, and to which sub-branch of that religion you subscribe. The Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, don't think that Hell is a place of flames and torment, but simply a place outside the sphere of God's love. When you pop your clogs, good JW's get into Heaven (which may actually be on Earth anyway), and everyone else just, doesn't. It's a bit strange and vague, but that's the JWs for you.

Most people are familiar with the common concept of Heaven and Hell. Nice people go to Heaven where they get a harp and sit on a cloud for the rest of eternity; bad people go to Hell where demons poke them with sharp sticks for the rest of eternity. Heaven is ruled by God and Jesus, Hell is ruled by Satan and his minions. Oooh, you'd better be good or you'll burn in Hellfire forever!! And you don't want that, do you?

This is all well and good, if that's where you stop thinking about it. Unfortunately, some of us have inquisitive minds and can't help but probe a little deeper into this odd aspect of Christianity.

[size=14pt]Where is Hell[/size]?




Yes, yes, we all know there are several towns called Hell or Hel, but I'm talking about the hot place ruled by the big red guy with horns.

Is it an actual physical location?

Some seem to think so. Some people believe that Hell is located at the centre of the Earth (there was even a story some years ago about Russian miners going so deep that they heard the screams of the Damned). You can understand how this belief came about - thousands of years ago, people seeing erupting volcanoes probably thought that Hell was leaking. It gave them a startling insight into the world below. This could well be how the whole Burning In Hellfire idea came about.

If there really was a huge hollow cavern in the molten mantle, I can't help but wonder why it hasn't yet shown up on geological/seismological surveys,

Others seem to think that it is on some other dimensional plane of existence - it really does exist, but not in the universe as we know it.

[size=14pt]What happens to your body[/size]?

Back to the idea of demons poking you with sharp sticks. Hell is portrayed as a place of eternal torment - every possible torture and atrocity that you can imagine will be inflicted on you, forever. You will be in constant agonising pain for all eternity (so you'd better repent, or else).

How does this happen then? When you die, your central nervous system stops functioning and your body is buried or burnt. There is a well understood process for the transmission of pain signals from your nerves to your brain. No nerve cells, no pain.

In order to be poked by demons and feel that as pain, you require a physical body with all the appropriate nerve connections. How does this come about then? Is your body mysteriously transported from your grave / cremation urn to Hell and brought back to life again? Is your "spirit body" altered to let you feel pain in the same way as your long-dead physical body used to? [/color]

What if you're a masochist and really quite like it? After all, if you don't have a real body, you could even start suggesting new and interesting tortures for the demons to try. "Hey, this pitchfork stuff is getting a bit dull, don't you have any red-hot pokers covered with ants instead? Ooh, ahh, up a bit, YES! YES!!!" [color=#990000]

It could also be argued that the threat of eternal torment loses effectiveness after a while - if a person who actually believes in Hell commits a number of serious crimes, what is to stop him from thinking "Well, I'm going to burn for eternity for killing those ten people, What's going to happen to me if I kill another ten and rob a few more banks? It can't get any worse - where's my gun?" If he commits twice the sins, he can't exactly suffer for two eternities, can he? Or would he experience double-infinite pain?

[size=14pt]How do you get there[/size]?

What you actually have to do in order to go to Hell varies wildly depending on your interpretation of scripture. For instance, some people say it doesn't matter what crime you commit - as long as you truly repent before you die you'll go to Heaven. On the other hand, some catholic nuns give the impression that you'll suffer eternal torment just for looking at them funny or making jokes about the Pope's silly hat.

All this can lead to some bizarre inconsistencies. A good example is the recent case of Karla Faye Tucker (and I mean no disrespect to the families involved when I use this as an example). This case made headline news in early 1998 - Karla Tucker had been involved in the pick-axe murder of two people and sentenced to death. During her time in prison she became a born-again Christian, turning her life over to Jesus Christ and repenting for her crime. This stirred up a hornet's nest as people like Pat Robertson suggested that she should not be executed, as she was a changed person (of course, many other people find Jesus/Allah on Death Row, but Tucker was A: a woman, and B: a christian, so she seemed to get preference in the eyes of Robertson and the like).

My point is this. Depending on your particular interpretation of the Rules Of The Afterlife, Tucker either


Went to Hell for being a drugged-up pick-axe murderer.
Went to Heaven because she repented and found salvation through Jesus.
Also


Her victims went straight to Heaven because they were innocent murder-victims,
Or, if they had not already accepted Jesus as their saviour, they went straight to Hell.
This leads to the insane possibility that the murderer went to heaven, and her victims went to Hell. Or even that they all went to either Heaven or Hell.

How many murder victims in Heaven get an unpleasent surprise when their "saved" murderer finally comes up to join them?

Who runs the place?
Easy answer: Satan (big red guy, horns, pointy tail etc.).
Tricky answer: God (old guy with beard and white robe).

"Don't be daft, of course Satan runs the place!", I hear you cry.

Really? How did he get the job, then? After The Fall, did Satan set up shop in the underworld and send an advertisement to God, touting for business -


Now Open - Underworld Torture Facility.
Let us handle the tedious work of torturing
the Damned for you.
Full Repentance Or Your Money Back!
10% discount on first million souls if you call today

So what happens when you die? Do you really go up to the Pearly Gates where Peter is waiting with his Big Book Of Your Life? Too many black marks and he sends you down to Hell,

Or is there some sort of spiritual Tug-O-War, as angels and demons fight it out over your soul?

It seems to me that God and Lucifer have some sort of deal going on here. If we succumb to temptation during our lifetime, we go to Hell where we get tortured until we repent, when we are magically transported back up to Heaven. How does that work? Does Lucifer suddenly realise that after 55,000 years of torture you've suddenly become a good person, and he is contractually obliged to send you "upstairs"? Or does God look down into Hell, notice the change and whisk you away to get your wings? "Oh Darn!", says Lucifer, "There goes another one. Why does that keep happening?"

Many people believe that once you are in Hell, you are there for good (or bad). That's it. No parole. Just eternal, searing, excruciating, agonising torture for trillions of years, without so much as a toilet break. Murderers, rapists and drug-dealers, as well as perfectly normal people who simply failed to believe, will have their skin burnt off for all eternity. All sins merit the same punishment, it would appear. If this is so then it seems to me that any God who would send people to such a place can only be described as a mindless monster. Alternatively, if God unconditionally loves everyone and has the ability to pull them out of Hell, but does not, then he is still an insane tyrant.

Ah, but (so I am told) God does not send anyone to Hell. They choose to go there by refusing to accept God. Does this make any sense to you? Just imagine : you die, and go up to the Pearly Gates. Well, gosh, it looks like I was wrong all this time! Okay, so there is a God. I pretty much have to believe now, don't I? Can I come in? What, I can't? I have to take the down-elevator? That doesn't seem right,

This idea about people choosing Hell just seems like some sort of sick joke, I'm afraid. How can it be said that a person who lives a blameless life, but (for whatever reason) does not accept J.Christ as their personal saviour, is making an active, conscious decision to suffer horrible pain for an infinite amount of time?

Hmmm, maybe the Jehovah's Witnesses version isn't so far-out after all.
You see the sort of trouble you can get into just by applying a little bit of reasoning and thought to religion?

Bottom line frizy, I am an atheist. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, demons or angels. There is no devil trying to tempt you to eat one more doughnut, drive a little faster, murder your neighbour, burn down a church or cheat on your partner. If you do something bad, it is your own fault and no-one else's.

Should we teach our children that they are under constant attack from evil, invisible demons, trying to get them to be naughty, and that if they do then they will horribly tortured forever? Or should we try to teach them respect for others and a sense of responsibility and accountability?


Accept responsibilty for your own actions.
Don't seek forgiveness from your deity - seek it from those you hurt.
The Devil didn't make you do it. You did.

Sun God:

@still water

You remind me of all those little sunday sunday girls that wear their sunday best and carry a 2b note book and look all that holy and innocent on a sunday morning that would probably sit in the front row in church, sing the loudest and pray the hardest for all to notice and jot down everything pastor lagbaja has said and ponder on it so seriously in church that you would even be one day short of being an usher or assistant minister but outside the church, your an embarrasment to your faith because you can't even defend what your pastor taught you. You can even dub from your 2b notebook of jottings to even defend your faith because you know it bullshit and your lack the understanding of what you preach. But when they ask you are you a born again, You will be the first person to say "I have accepted jesus as my lord and saviour" but you don't even know how to defend what you accept.


Just shows how delusional, obtuse and irrational you can be. All i asked was to justify the story and give it some credibility but all you have done so far is dodge the bullet and make matters worse for more atheists to laugh at the imbecility of christians.

Once again thanks for being an embarassment to the christian community. We love to pick on little hypocritics like you

Hi inu kwa Sungod
Stop deceiving yourself. what credibility were you looking for when your mind is already set to believe in what you want to believe, are you trying to tell me that my justification of the story would have turned you into a christian overnight . Tell that to little children, my rational and logical one. Stop the deceit. It has run stale for years now. Am I crying on your "pickings". "Oh please don't pick on me, I bruise like a peach" Are you jealous you never wore your pretty frocks like me to church , oh sorry boy I never knew you desperately wished to be one of us, or where you one ? mind you i never sat in the front seat--too shy for that . Laugh all you can (na today). Looking forward to your next post

@still water

**yawns very hard and feels very drowsy from the dry and boring comments from a badly bruised and embarrased christian!**

sigh!

@ poster. If it were those days, u would be stone to death for blasphemy!!!

babamutu:

@ poster. If it were those days, u would be stone to death for blasphemy!!!

Typical religious fanatic and fundamentalist that has nothing to say but encourages violence just the way the koran or bible preaches.

Am not suprised because its one of the hall marks of a religious bigot to say something mundane and not address the issues, questions and posers that have being thrown to you to verify your claims about your religion. But the moment somone askes a question about the fabricated lies that has been expounded in your widely primitive, unbelievable and imaginable holy books, you begin to think of violence as a last resort!

Pssssssfffffff! Rubbish!

P:S: Rationals dont believe in violence and blasphemy. We believe in logical thinkings and if the evidence is conclusive we give you a resounding pat on the back for a job well done but if its false, you would recieve the greatest tongue lashing of the century.

So pick your poision and tread very wisely!

lol this thread, Id really like to see "teh religious ones" counter to the implausibility of Noah's ark.

Dont mind them jayfk jare. They have being tongue tied and have all gone hiding into their shells. If the question was one that had to do with their silly night virgils or sunday sunday school headed by one fanciful pastor, they would all be running their mouths to defend the bible with so much venom. Now that kata kata don comot, them all de hide for one corner.

To even rub pepper for their eyes, i would even alledge another mythical biblical fact that totally nullifies the birth of jesus and then we know wahala don come

@ sun god
If you insist on arguing with fundamentalists and literal believers in the Bible you really will make little headway. Why? well because for a fundamentalist belief is more in important than critical analysis. For a fundamentalist the spiritual and emotional part of religion is sacred. When you point out holes in the rationality of his belief, you are threatening the core of his happiness and joy. He will then mostly react aggressively and maybe even respond to your questions obstusely.

I have given you an answer in that many Christians do not take Biblical stories literally, many are aware of the historical, cultural and mythological influence on biblical writings. Many of such Christians will not argue about the issues you have brought up because they already have similar views. However a Christian may still choose to live a Christian lifestyle for the emotional advantages - the happiness factor.

@sun god

TRUE RECORD ABOUT NOAH AND THE ARK -
GOD IS THE GOD OF IMPOSSIBLITY

Genesis 7:1
[ The Flood ] Then the LORD said to Noah, "Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be [Gen 6:9] righteous before Me in this time.

Genesis 7:7
Then [Gen 6:18; 7:13; Matt 24:38; Luke 17:27] Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives with him entered the ark because of the water of the flood.

Genesis 7:9
there went into the ark to Noah by twos, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.

Genesis 7:13
On the very same day [Gen 6:18; 7:7] Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark,

Genesis 7:15
So they went into the ark to Noah, [Gen 6:19; 7:9] by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life.

Genesis 7:23
Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only [Matt 24:38, 39; Luke 17:26, 27; Heb 11:7; 1 Pet 3:20; 2 Pet 2:5] Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.

Genesis 8:1
[ The Flood Subsides ] But [Gen 19:29; Ex 2:24; 1 Sam 1:19; Ps 105:42] God remembered Noah and all the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the ark; and [Ex 14:21; 15:10; Job 12:15; Ps 29:10; Is 44:27; Nah 1:4] God caused a wind to pass over the earth, and the water subsided.

Genesis 8:6
Then it came about at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the [Gen 6:16] window of the ark which he had made;

Genesis 8:13
Now it came about in the [Gen 7:6] six hundred and first year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the water was dried up from the earth. Then Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and behold, the surface of the ground was dried up.

Genesis 9:18
Now the sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem and Ham and Japheth; and [Gen 9:25-27; 10:6] Ham was the father of Canaan.

Matthew 24:38
"For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, [Matt 22:30] marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that [Gen 7:7] Noah entered the ark,

Luke 17:27
they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith [Gen 6:13-22] Noah, being [Heb 8:5] warned by God about [Heb 11:1] things not yet seen, [Heb 5:7] in reverence [1 Pet 3:20] prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of [Gen 6:9; Ezek 14:14, 20; Rom 4:13; 9:30] the righteousness which is according to faith.

1 Peter 3:20
who once were disobedient, when the [Rom 2:4] patience of God [Gen 6:3, 5, 13] kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of [Heb 11:7] the ark, in which a few, that is, [Gen 8:18; 2 Pet 2:5] eight [Acts 2:41; 1 Pet 1:9, 22; 2:25; 4:19] persons, were brought safely through the water.

TRUE RECORD ABOUT NOAH AND THE ARK -
GOD IS THE GOD OF IMPOSSIBLITY[b]

How?  I mean you've opened every single opportunity for this sun god to attack you now. The right phrase is "God is able to do all things". Impossibility ke? Is this how your pastors preach? That God's powers are impossible, Speak rationally.

Tasma:

@ sun god
If you insist on arguing with fundamentalists and literal believers in the Bible you really will make little headway. Why? well because for a fundamentalist belief is more in important than critical analysis. For a fundamentalist the spiritual and emotional part of religion is sacred. When you point out holes in the rationality of his belief, you are threatening the core of his happiness and joy. He will then mostly react aggressively and maybe even respond to your questions obstusely.

I have given you an answer in that many Christians do not take Biblical stories literally, many are aware of the historical, cultural and mythological influence on biblical writings. Many of such Christians will not argue about the issues you have brought up because they already have similar views. However a Christian may still choose to live a Christian lifestyle for the emotional advantages - the happiness factor.

@Tasma

I will definately accord you that respect and honour because you have at least tried to debate this issue from a rational point of view which i am interested in but there are still some flaws in the argument but just because you summarized it by pointing out the dangers of christian fundamentalists in the our mordern day society trying to distort the bible at every whimps and caprice they possess, i would buy your argument.

Rationals believe that if even christians rely on the bible, they should pick out the moral issues of making mankind a better person instead of gloating over silly things like heaven or hell or god is perfect and ominiscent and all that crap. If they focused more on values without ascribing so many false doctrines to buttress their points, Rationals wouldnt have any problem with it and just leave them alone.

But would an average christian hear that? No of course! They would disturb you with their endless preachings, televangelism, words of future doom if you dont worship the almighty and words of fear and terror to support their claims. They all tend to forget that the more they do such nonsense, the more rationals would go out and investigate their claims and when they know its game up for them, they begin to conjure up innuendoes and allegories to validate their claims and if that trick doesnt work for them, they resort to insults and more threats. So we are not bothered. All we have to do is to expose the sham and fraud being circulated by christians and make them wallow in their own shame and embarrassment.

Anyway good to hear from you and hope we can engage in a more constructive debate sometime, Cheerio!