Image123:
The implications that we should cast away Jesus? That He is not our perfect example?

No sir! I'm glad you're the only one who ask questions from me to amplify whatever I say. I'm sure it's because you and I are used to one another. My statement was NEVER to cast away Jesus and as a matter of fact, I was pointing that scriptures to explain that, there's difference between the JESUS christ and CHRIST jesus whenever used in scriptures and it was Apostle Paul that did such job very well - REVEALING the CHRIST of Jesus.

Remember, he wasn't born Christ, he was born Jesus BUT he CAME as Christ from above. Christ is the divine and Jesus is the earthly if I may so say. Jesus is human, Christ is divine as we know. Hence, the Pauline epistle REVEALED the Christ that was first mentioned by Apostle Peter and you could remember, it was on that revelation that Christ said, "I WILL BUILD my church...".

What am I saying, we accept JESUS as our Lord BUT the Saviour is in the CHRIST, that is the RISEN Lord & the Messiah. A woman or anyone can call her husband lord BUT none calls others Saviour of their soul. Therefore, when we accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour, it is done ONCE and it becomes the foundation on which the epistles build on. Make I no talk too much, e don do

New International Version (©2011)
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have--Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:11

Therefore, Christ is FIRST and FOUNDATION of our Christian life and on that is what we build on THROUGH the Apostolic teachings - the ones Christ himself chose to build on his foundation. Therefore, this statement (below) is TRUE!

okeyxyz:

If you don't follow Paul, then it's impossible to follow christ, because Paul's letters were the revelation of christ, his parables and the prophesies.

Tgirl4real: Goshen,

Soft peddal with dis ur msg endorsement.

"Looking unto Jesus, the author and the finisher or our faith"

My sister @ the top,

I know you've left milk of the word and on the meat but now, It's time for the bone. Abi if that your egusi soup with the amala (represent the word) and better brokoto jam each other, if you chop finish, you no go crack bone ni? especially if na so called biscuit\soft bone? Abeg relax make you hear explanation joor....

Ihedinobi:

There is a subtle untruth in this post. It actually is the corruption of a truth. True enough, the believer is no longer a slave to the law but it is entirely untrue to continue from that into "therefore there is no law anymore." That is a terrible lie that makes the Cross of Christ of none effect.

My friend, there is most definitely a law still and it is a far stronger one, a more perfect one than the Law of Moses. In fact, it is actually the Perfect Law which Moses's tried to copy. And this Law is within the Christian. It is such a strict Law... For instance, where Moses says not to commit adultery and is silent on fornication, it says to not even so much as look at a woman with desire in your heart. It is an impossible Law to obey unless it is within the believer and forms new desires and wishes for him.

#Yes, there's a different law, brought about by christ's death and resurrection and it is called the law of liberty. It's sole purpose is to liberate us from the law of Moses. The law of liberty is not to perfect the law of Moses as some christians affirm. True that the laws of moses attempt to imitate god's nature but fails woefully at it, completely misunderstands/misrepresents god's nature and has become an absolute lie. Anybody who upholds this laws of Moses, thinking they represent god's nature misses the way completely. Like I said before: the purpose of the law is to manifest and reinforce sin, therefore, it's aim is to steal, kill and destroy. The law itself is the sin and anybody who subjects himself to observe this law makes himself a sinner.

Every believer is one because they have that law within them directing every move of theirs. When they step out of line, I can assure you that they are always in a hurry to find the line again...there's really nothing so terrible as fighting a civil war with yourself

Anyway, the point is that Jesus brought a New Law, in fact, the Original Law that Moses's aped. And His Death was meant to scatter It into as many lives as would receive it. Moses's Law is useful to comprehend just how much this new Law encompasses. Moses's Law is always pointing on to this Law, so when, for instance, it talks about Sabbath, it seems to say something more to the Christian. It seems to say, "the Lord". When it says circumcision, it points to the Cross.

#Yes! every human has the law in their hearts(whether they be jews, christians, moslems, buddists, atheists, etc),the law is in fact the human nature\morality. This law was actually the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that adam consumed back in eden and it has become human nature since. The presentation by moses was only a formalization of Adam's choice and fall in eden. Just analyse it: The law is about do's and don'ts; the tree is about knowledge of Good(do's) and evil(don'ts). But scripture tells that all that god created is good, yet this tree tells you that some things are created good and some things are created evil, just as the law says some things are good(do's) and some are evil(don'ts). Ultimately adam's fall brought sin and death and this sin & death is the law:

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law(1 Corinthians 15:56 );

No sir, we are not free entirely from law, rather we have been saved from an impotent law by a really potent one that is able to do what the impotent one failed to do: to actually destroy the power of sin.

Well, The law promised wisdom and life;
"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."(Genesis 3:5 )

but it was was a lie. What it delivered was death and Jesus proved it by becoming the personification of this law and was condemned to death,
for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."(Genesis 2:17 ). (To eat means: to abide by..; to keep this law.)

Thus proving it to be a lie and promptly abolished.

Bro Goshen, first I'm sorry if my denunciation of @okeyxyz's post appeared to be a denunciation of you as well. The problem is that his post contains a very subtle but powerful lie. That lie attacks the very work of the Cross and it can very easily take in the untrained amongst us. And your endorsement of the post without qualification, that is, pointing out what parts you endorse and what parts you don't only increases the potency of the lie for Nairaland believers who follow your work.

Now as for the Christ in Paul's letters, believe me, He was not different from the Jesus of the Gospels. Jesus was born under the Law for the sole purpose of replacing it. He Himself was the Original Law that Moses was commissioned to make a copy of. So, just like the shadows of the night disappear under the rays of the morning sun, the law vanished upon the emergence or incarnation of its original. This is why the experts in the law felt that Jesus was breaking the law and still couldn't quite cite which one(s) He indeed broke. He "broke" the Sabbath, for instance, but they couldn't show how He did and He did that quite a number of times and in divers ways. Many of His stories are like that.

Nobody could convict Him of sin because He embodied the true meaning of the Mosaic law. And it is because He was the Law that the Mosaic law sought to copy. If He was guilty of breaking the law, they shouldn't have needed to find bearers of false witness to accuse Him. And if He hadn't transcended the law, they wouldn't have been so ticked off at Him. That was Jesus before the Cross.

After the Cross, we still have the same Jesus. The only difference is that He is no longer alone. His Life has been scattered abroad and many abound who carry this Original Law within them. That was the Purpose of His Birth, the Kingdom for which He came, the Mission for which He was anointed. From birth, He was the Anointed One, the Messiah, God's King in Zion. It wasn't some time later that He became the Christ.

Note also that the Name Jesus itself means Savior. It is Jesus Who is Christ. They are not two separate entities or callings. Jesus the Christ was God's Choice for the Throne and through Him God was going to build a Kingdom, a Family. In Him, the Creator became one with His Creation. That is Who the Christ Whose Name is Jesus is.

However it is completely true that Paul was particularly blessed with the deepest revelations of Christ. But it is not such that he says something different from the other witnesses, no. He just has a great deal more detail of the same picture. If a man finds Paul's letters in conflict in any way with Luke's Gospel or John's Revelation, there is something wrong with him.

Suffice it to say that Paul never spoke of Jesus difderently than Matthew, he merely elaborated on the same Jesus and made Matthew even more worth reading.

The Lord bless you, bro.

okeyxyz:

If you don't follow Paul, then it's impossible to follow christ, because Paul's letters were the revelation of christ, his parables and the prophesies.

I've explained the above statement in my response to Image123. Please refer to it above.

okeyxyz:

Christians are continously trying to imitate the Jesus who walked amongst us over 2000 years ago, but that was the jesus who represented the law instead of the jesus who represented grace. His representation of the Law(sin) was the reason he had to die so that the law(sin) could be legally abolished, but christians still subject themselves to this same law by using that Jesus as a standard for morality and imitation.

The above statement is TRUE and 100% CORRECT. Lemme try and do an expansion to the above statement.

Now, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are NOT the New Testament. They are the Gospel that records the lives and teachings of Christ. This teachings are FOUNDATIONAL to the New Testament that will effect AFTER his death. The birth of Jesus DID NOT START the New Testament BUT his DEATH.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15

The promise of eternal inheritance is NOT by the birth of Christ; it was BY MEANS OF DEATH. The new testament could have start until after his death and could not have been under the new testament in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; it has to be AFTER his death.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. Hebrews 9:16-18

English Standard Version (©2001)
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Galatians 4:4

Now, we need to understand two things were going on in Matthew, Matthew, Luke and John. 1. Christ was establishing teachings to his 12 Apostles and these teachings are what is carried on into the new testament and were foundations for the new testament that will effect after his death. 2. Christ came to fulfill and bring an end to the era of Moses' law. To do this, Christ had to represent the law in order to fulfill it and become the sin that is in the law of Moses so he can set us free from the law of SIN and DEATH by becoming SIN for us who knew NO SIN.

okeyxyz:

1. You have to cast away that Jesus and put on the new, resurrected christ that is dead to the law and therefore free from it and no longer bound to observe the moralities of the law.

2. Therefore you cannot continue to define right and wrong based on how the law defines them.

3. The law reinforces sin but a true christian CANNOT sin because the law is null and void to him.

1. TRUE and CORRECT. Because the Jesus that represented the law had to died to fulfill the law, Christians need died to the law of Moses that they might live in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. The law of the Spirit of life is not obeyed by the Christian himself BUT it is being lived out by the Christian. It is the Spirit of life in such Christian that gives the empowerment to fulfill this law of the Spirit, the believer ONLY yields to the Spirit to fulfill or obey this new law.

2. Defining rights and wrongs based on how the laws of MOSES defined them is what is meant by this statement.

3. With the law (of Moses) is the conscious of sin BUT with the law of Spirit of life is the consciousness of Christ who now lives us by the Spirit of life. Yes, a Christian can fall or commit a sin and becomes condemn by the conscious of the law which condemns to death BUT yielding to Spirit of life, a Christian CANNOT sin and if he does, yielding to the flesh, the Spirit of life doesn't condemn such Christian unlike the law of sin and death.

4. What shall we say in all these, shall we continue in sin because we are under Grace or that Grace may abound? CERTAINLY NOT! But "if" it does happen, we have an advocate with the Father. There's a big difference between CONTINUE to sin thinking that the Grace is there AND "if" we sin, we have an advocate with the Father. The former is an abuse of Grace while the later is a function of our advocate with the Father.

JeSoul:
I follow the one who actually gave His life as a sacrifice to redeem my soul, I follow Jesus Christ. And I recognize those who also follow Christ. I ascribe them their due honor but always remember that they were/are human and therefore subject to human limitations just like the rest of us - whether they are bible authors or not.

True!! You "follow" the one who actually gave his life.., but do you actually know him? Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, which means this jesus was of the law and not of grace? Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables? His parables were actually the only time he spoke "truth" but he hid them because it was not yet time for the revelation of truth, while the law was still legally standing. It's obvious the law and truth cannot coexist in the same era, the law(Jesus) has to die first before truth is made manifest. So when you idolize the Jesus who fulfills the law, then you miss the jesus who is free from the law...

@ okeyxyz,

Try as much as you can, when you write, be specific to differentiate what law you talk about whenever you mention law. It appears that many readers might not know the difference in your writings. For instance, when you mean that law of Moses and when you mean the natural law and when you mean the law of the Spirit etc.

Okey, send me email now please. Thanks

@ Ihedinobi,

I will respond to your post again later. But before then, kindly digest what okeyxyz wrote again. It's the same Jesus or Christ as we may want to call him BUT the dimension or revelation of the same person is different. It's like saying, Jesus is the lamb, Jesus is the door, Jesus is the way, Jesus is the truth, Jesus is the life. etc. Same person BUT different dimensions\revelation. I will respond to you post later.

MrBible: They do not truly follow Jesus Christ or Paul the Apostle so who are they truly following?

Today's Christians are opposite to the Christ they claimed to follow That is why we ask them;"what would Jesus say about Homosexuals"?

Ihedinobi:
Now as for the Christ in Paul's letters, believe me, He was not different from the Jesus of the Gospels. Jesus was born under the Law for the sole purpose of replacing it. He Himself was the Original Law that Moses was commissioned to make a copy of. So, just like the shadows of the night disappear under the rays of the morning sun, the law vanished upon the emergence or incarnation of its original. This is why the experts in the law felt that Jesus was breaking the law and still couldn't quite cite which one(s) He indeed broke. He "broke" the Sabbath, for instance, but they couldn't show how He did and He did that quite a number of times and in divers ways. Many of His stories are like that.

Nobody could convict Him of sin because He embodied the true meaning of the Mosaic law. And it is because He was the Law that the Mosaic law sought to copy. If He was guilty of breaking the law, they shouldn't have needed to find bearers of false witness to accuse Him. And if He hadn't transcended the law, they wouldn't have been so ticked off at Him. That was Jesus before the Cross.

##I'm actually impressed that you understand that Jesus was the embodiment of the law. That's nice. But you fail to realise that the law itself is the sin that needs to be taken away(just as you said: replaced). This is why Jesus had to die, because he assumed the personality of the law. You say he broke the sabbath day? No he didn't.., He simply demonstrated that he understood the law better than any man, explaining that the sabbath was made for man rather than man made for the sabbath. So who has a perfect understanding of the law if not the one who is the personification of the law? When ever jesus spoke truths, he spoke them in parables because these truths were actually against what the laws say, therefore it was necessary to hide truth in parables until the era of the law was over(after his death).

After the Cross, we still have the same Jesus. The only difference is that He is no longer alone. His Life has been scattered abroad and many abound who carry this Original Law within them. That was the Purpose of His Birth, the Kingdom for which He came, the Mission for which He was anointed. From birth, He was the Anointed One, the Messiah, God's King in Zion. It wasn't some time later that He became the Christ.

##The Jesus of christianity spoken of by Paul was totally different from the jesus of the gospels(mathew, mark, luke, john) just as you are different from your former self before you were born again. Though you are the same person but you have now taken up a new value system(or spirit) and have renounced your old ways.
After the cross, we recognize a totally different jesus by not observing the value systems of the old Jesus. Rather we take up the new jesus whose value systems were spoken of in parables that are now revealed. We must cast aside the "good"(according to the law) old Jesus and follow the true and free new jesus. Paul emphasizes this message:

Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer(2 Corinthians 5:16 ):

you can read to the end. Flesh here means: the law; human nature/morality.

^ lovely. The cross was the great divider between the old and the new; between the Jesus of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and the revealed Christ of the New Testament.

@Goshen360

I think you should pay careful attention to what Ihedinobi is saying. What the scriptures, the apostles, the early Christians and 'church fathers' all repeatedly refer to is ---- Jesus Christ. I do not think the effort to make a distinction between 'Jesus' and 'Christ' is sustainable at all.

^ I'm not that making too much distinction of the same person of Jesus Christ. I'm only making distinction of the dimension(s) of the same person. If you follow all the epistles and the context with which it was written, you often find Paul use "Christ" first before "Jesus" as in Christ Jesus; and in some case, "Jesus" before "Christ" as in Jesus Christ. It's an allegory that belongs to the Apostolic works, so to say. I believe that's what okeyxyz was trynna point out for us.

^^ No problem, bros. How is Yank land?

^ Good bro. I need your contact please. I will email you now.

JeSoul: Honestly, I find this gospel...complicated - to put it diplomatically. If you have the time, I'd like to see what scripture verses in context you'd use to support the many points you've made here. Cheers.

#Okay. I'll explain better, with scripture reference:

okeyxyz::
If you don't follow Paul, then it's impossible to follow christ, because Paul's letters were the revelation of christ, his parables and the prophesies.

#Like I said before, The Jesus who walked the earth is not the true model to be followed because his purpose was to fulfill/become the law. So he was not of Grace.
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill(Matthew 5:17 ).
And we know that his mission was to come and die, therefore dying is fulfilling this law..,

Christians are continously trying to imitate the Jesus who walked amongst us over 2000 years ago, but that was the jesus who represented the law instead of the jesus who represented grace. His representation of the Law(sin) was the reason he had to die so that the law(sin) could be legally abolished, but christians still subject themselves to this same law by using that Jesus as a standard for morality and imitation. You have to cast away that Jesus and put on the new, resurrected christ that is dead to the law and therefore free from it and no longer bound to observe the moralities of the law. Therefore you cannot continue to define right and wrong based on how the law defines them.

#His truths were spoken of in parables(hidden) delibrately because it was not yet time to reveal them. And the truths of God has always been hidden until the appointed time and for the ones who are elected to see it. Christians make the mistake of thinking that god's truth are plain in the bible and are demonstrated by the lifestyle of jesus himself. But Paul lets us know that god's truths are hidden and needs inspiration to be understood, if so. then this this truth cannot be according to the jesus the whole world(secular, religious, and the devil) knows:

but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory(1 Corinthians 2:7 )

that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints(Colossians 1:26 )

the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;(1 Corinthians 2:8 )

From the above verses, it is obvious that ture christianity cannot be according to the law of moses because these laws have always been known, not just to jews but to all humans. These laws are written in our hearts and have formed our human morality. So jesus cannot be bringing us what we'd always known and practiced. The law is not new but as old as humanity itself all the way from eden.

The law reinforces sin but a true christian CANNOT sin because the law is null and void to him.

A true chritian cannot sin because he is dead(through christ) to this law. Just like a dead man is unaware of anything going on around him, a true christian is also unaware of the law and it's doctrines, he has no conscience of them and therefore is not subject to and cannot be judged by them. He has transcended to liberty. While the law condemns(thou shalt not...) the man for being himself through the things he's naturally supposed to use and enjoy(food, drink, beauty, music, pleasure, art\science, knowledge, etc)

FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.(1 Corinthians 10:26 )

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--(Colossians 2:16 )

who are these guys exactly, your exposition fit turn Paul head sef if he no careful. Jesus remains the same yesterday, today and forever no matter the logical spin employed. Hopefully, i should be better chanced next week.

okeyxyz:

#Yes, there's a different law, brought about by christ's death and resurrection and it is called the law of liberty. It's sole purpose is to liberate us from the law of Moses. The law of liberty is not to perfect the law of Moses as some christians affirm. True that the laws of moses attempt to imitate god's nature but fails woefully at it, completely misunderstands/misrepresents god's nature and has become an absolute lie. Anybody who upholds this laws of Moses, thinking they represent god's nature misses the way completely. Like I said before: the purpose of the law is to manifest and reinforce sin, therefore, it's aim is to steal, kill and destroy.The law itself is the sin and anybody who subjects himself to observe this law makes himself a sinner.

The bold is the summary of your argument here and it is a bald-faced lie. The Scriptures say, Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. That's Romans 7:12.

However, the law that Jesus brought was indeed a law of liberty. But its purpose was most definitely not to free us from Moses's law per se, it is to accomplish what Moses's law couldn't, viz, break the hold of sin over us.

#Yes! every human has the law in their hearts(whether they be jews, christians, moslems, buddists, atheists, etc),the law is in fact the human nature\morality. This law was actually the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that adam consumed back in eden and it has become human nature since. The presentation by moses was only a formalization of Adam's choice and fall in eden. Just analyse it: The law is about do's and don'ts; the tree is about knowledge of Good(do's) and evil(don'ts). But scripture tells that all that god created is good, yet this tree tells you that some things are created good and some things are created evil, just as the law says some things are good(do's) and some are evil(don'ts). Ultimately adam's fall brought sin and death and this sin & death is the law:

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law(1 Corinthians 15:56 );

This is a very bad twisting of the truth, my friend. "The power of the sin is the law" is not at all the same as "sin and death is the law". No doubt there is a "law of sin and death" but it is by no means the same as the law of Moses. Says Paul, "for I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." The law (or nature, that is the more correct term) of sin is that within us that pulls us toward all the wrong things. The law of Moses is a different thing altogether. It was a "handwriting of ordinances that was against us".

That handwriting condemns the sinner. It says unequivocally that man is a miserable sinner with no hope of saving himself. The law of Moses was God's tool for showing man how bad his condition was. Only such a man as has realized how desperately evil he is can seek help.

Well, The law promised wisdom and life;
"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."(Genesis 3:5 )

but it was was a lie. What it delivered was death and Jesus proved it by becoming the personification of this law and was condemned to death,
for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."(Genesis 2:17 ). (To eat means: to abide by..; to keep this law.)

Thus proving it to be a lie and promptly abolished.

My friend, you're mixing things up very badly. The law was given by God to man through Moses to acquaint him with his terrible condition and teach him to look for help outside himself. The law of Moses had nothing to do with the tree of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil except in exposing what it had done to man in making him through and through a rebel against God.

Well done Ihedinobi. How Gosh will still make attempts to defend this is indefensible.

They follow daddy and mummy G.O.

Image123: Well done Ihedinobi. How Gosh will still make attempts to defend this is indefensible.

Bros, you sef. Na wha for you. Wait lemme and Ihedinobi talk to ourselves and siddon dey look, you hear.

@ Ihedinobi, please be patient, I will attend to you. We might not necessarily agree but at least, we have fellowship and learn from one another.

okeyxyz:

##I'm actually impressed that you understand that Jesus was the embodiment of the law. That's nice. But you fail to realise that the law itself is the sin that needs to be taken away(just as you said: replaced). This is why Jesus had to die, because he assumed the personality of the law. You say he broke the sabbath day? No he didn't.., He simply demonstrated that he understood the law better than any man, explaining that the sabbath was made for man rather than man made for the sabbath. So who has a perfect understanding of the law if not the one who is the personification of the law? When ever jesus spoke truths, he spoke them in parables because these truths were actually against what the laws say, therefore it was necessary to hide truth in parables until the era of the law was over(after his death).

My friend, your "Gospel" is a very curious one. Upon the entrance of Christ Jesus upon the scene, the law of Moses immediately faded back into its Original. He was the Meaning of the Law, that to which it had always pointed.

And the "broke" was in quotes just like the one in this sentence for a reason. He did not break the Sabbath, He showed its true meaning.

Now feel free to show where in the Scriptures the law was called the sin that needed to be taken away.

##The Jesus of christianity spoken of by Paul was totally different from the jesus of the gospels(mathew, mark, luke, john) just as you are different from your former self before you were born again. Though you are the same person but you have now taken up a new value system(or spirit) and have renounced your old ways.
After the cross, we recognize a totally different jesus by not observing the value systems of the old Jesus. Rather we take up the new jesus whose value systems were spoken of in parables that are now revealed. We must cast aside the "good"(according to the law) old Jesus and follow the true and free new jesus. Paul emphasizes this message:

Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer(2 Corinthians 5:16 ):

you can read to the end. Flesh here means: the law; human nature/morality.

My word! This is a lot of nonsense, my friend. First of all, "flesh" there does not mean the law at all. And human nature/morality id not interchangeable with the law.

Jesus did not change after the Cross. He Himself said that except a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone, but if it does, it produces a great many more like it. He said that about His Death. Does anything in those words suggest that the Cross changed Christ? Nothing in all the New Testament testifies that Jesus transformed at all.

The Cross was all about spreading His Life into as many people as would believe in Him so that they would live like He did as the Gospels described.

Goshen360:

Bros, you sef. Na wha for you. Wait lemme and Ihedinobi talk to ourselves and siddon dey look, you hear.

@ Ihedinobi, please be patient, I will attend to you. We might not necessarily agree but at least, we have fellowship and learn from one another.

Its not about the points, it's about the simple basics. And if the foundations are wrong, i verily doubt that the righteous can do much as it were.

okeyxyz:

#Okay. I'll explain better, with scripture reference:



#Like I said before, The Jesus who walked the earth is not the true model to be followed because his purpose was to fulfill/become the law. So he was not of Grace.
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill(Matthew 5:17 ).
And we know that his mission was to come and die, therefore dying is fulfilling this law..,

So which Jesus was the One by Whom Grace and Truth came?

Regardless, the word, fulfill, also means 'to perfect', 'to complete'. Jesus being the antitype of the Law perfected it. He took it out of the realms of externals into the realms of the spiritual. According to the Fulfillment of the Law, it is not physical circumcision now that counts but the heart which chooses it. According to the Perfection of the Law, it is no longer a question of percentages of your income and to whom you pay, it is a question of who in fact owns you yourself. According to the Completion of the Law, it is no longer "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not" but "thou wouuldest" and "thou wouldest not", or, in today's English, "you want" and "you don't want". The law is no longer an obligation that we cannot hope to satisfy, it has become the desires on the inside of us to do that which is well-pleasing to God.

Jesus's mission was to complete the task of the Law which was to make men holy. He fulfilled it, as you said, by dying. His Death made His Perfect, well-tested and proved Life available to all who believe so that they now have a new nature within them that makes them want to please God. They are not stuck on the ceremonies of the Mosaic Law because they now possess within them the meaning of those ceremonies.

#His truths were spoken of in parables(hidden) delibrately because it was not yet time to reveal them. And the truths of God has always been hidden until the appointed time and for the ones who are elected to see it. Christians make the mistake of thinking that god's truth are plain in the bible and are demonstrated by the lifestyle of jesus himself. But Paul lets us know that god's truths are hidden and needs inspiration to be understood, if so. then this this truth cannot be according to the jesus the whole world(secular, religious, and the devil) knows:

but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory(1 Corinthians 2:7 )

that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints(Colossians 1:26 )

the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;(1 Corinthians 2:8 )

From the above verses, it is obvious that ture christianity cannot be according to the law of moses because these laws have always been known, not just to jews but to all humans. These laws are written in our hearts and have formed our human morality. So jesus cannot be bringing us what we'd always known and practiced. The law is not new but as old as humanity itself all the way from eden.

The Law of Moses itself was a parable so the fact that someone knew all of its tenets and requirements does not at all mean that they understood its mystery. For instance, all those sin offerings were types of the Cross. Had Satan and his hierarchy recognized that, they would not have killed Jesus and yet those sacrifices were never made in hiding.

Besides, even those things that have now been revealed and are preached and taught right on this forum are still locked away in the spirit and cannot be understood by any intellect but rhe spiritual. It has always been that way. Even back in the days, God didn't take pleasure in the mere keeping of the externals of the law, and He always said so. He has always been calling men to come within the veil and all those that pleased Him were those who could, with the eyes of faith, see through the externals of the Mosaic Law to what God was really saying.

So, no, the law has not been known for ages any more than Jesus's parables were understood.

A true chritian cannot sin because he is dead(through christ) to this law. Just like a dead man is unaware of anything going on around him, a true christian is also unaware of the law and it's doctrines, he has no conscience of them and therefore is not subject to and cannot be judged by them. He has transcended to liberty. While the law condemns(thou shalt not...) the man for being himself through the things he's naturally supposed to use and enjoy(food, drink, beauty, music, pleasure, art\science, knowledge, etc)

FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.(1 Corinthians 10:26 )

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--(Colossians 2:16 )

Finally, the destination of the war against law: LICENCE. No surprise there.

Consider that Paul, the author also of the letter to the Colossians, said in another letter, "for, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not your liberty for an occasion to the flesh." And, oh, he also lists the works or manifestations or products or fruits of the flesh in the same chapter of this latter letter. You should look it up. The portion of Scripture is Galatians 5.

A true believer can falter and fall, because he is learning to synchronize with his new nature. He is not amoral. There is a new law, or rather, nature which makes demands on him. It teaches him what is profitable and God-glorifying and strengthens him to pursue it. It teaches him what is harmful and enables him to resist it. It makes a solid moral character out of him, a brilliant star in the firmament.

okeyxyz:
A true chritian cannot sin because he is dead(through christ) to this law. Just like a dead man is unaware of anything going on around him, a true christian is also unaware of the law and it's doctrines, he has no conscience of them and therefore is not subject to and cannot be judged by them. He has transcended to liberty. While the law condemns(thou shalt not...) the man for being himself through the things he's naturally supposed to use and enjoy(food, drink, beauty, music, pleasure, art\science, knowledge, etc)

FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.(1 Corinthians 10:26 )

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--(Colossians 2:16 )

... and your original post which has already been contested by two or more other people ....

---------------------------

How many xtians today are true xtians? Many xtians are still on the journey to getting to the place where they overcome sin by grace. Many xtians still wallow in sin, and the law is the only guide that sets them right because they are still deaf to hearing the spirit of God. Many xtians do not know the power they carry inside them and as such still have to rely on the law to point them in the right direction. A little child (xtain) does not know that it is unacceptable to lie or to steal until you (The law or the Holy Spirit) tell them it is not acceptable.

Are you saying that Christians who have been sent to prison for fraud, abuse etc have committed no sin? Do you know that some victims of the catholic sekz abuse were told by their abusers that they (the priests) could do no wrong?

If we cannot sin, why does the bible tell us to flee from all unrighteousness? When we say a Christian cannot sin, we need to make it clear that what a xtian has through Christ is the grace (power) not to sin; we can still sin by choice and get rewarded accordingly for our deed. We have very clear examples all around us of xtians who chose to sin and are publicly paying the price for it.

1 Corinthians 10:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Temptation comes to us all but we as xtians have the grace through Christ to tell it where to go! While grace and forgiveness abounds, there is no liberty to sin or wallow in sin in Christ. Sin does not become righteousness just because you are a Xtian.

@ Ihedinobi,

You guys have said so many things that I do not know where to come into the discussion anymore. However, lemme pick from here asking you these questions. I hope to know your stance on this subject from the answers you provide.

1. When did the Old Covenant\testament ended?

2. When did the New Covenant\Testament began?

3. In Acts 15:5,10-25. What is the "content" or "scope" of the law of Moses that was discussed among the Apostles? That is, does the law of Moses in context include ALL or SOME aspect(s) of the law of Moses?.

I hope I have time for us to build our discussion from here. Thank you.

striktlymi:

Good morning Ihedinobi,

The post above is just too much and I agree with it totally.

i too must agree, the law of moses was decleared void. But an even more perfect law now operate.
The believer is not a sinner may sound true after d sematics has been done, but "a christian doesnt sin" is a untruth.

Goshen360: ^ I'm not that making too much distinction of the same person of Jesus Christ. I'm only making distinction of the dimension(s) of the same person. If you follow all the epistles and the context with which it was written, you often find Paul use "Christ" first before "Jesus" as in Christ Jesus; and in some case, "Jesus" before "Christ" as in Jesus Christ. It's an allegory that belongs to the Apostolic works, so to say. I believe that's what okeyxyz was trynna point out for us.

my dear there is no point there, at time d translator translated anointed saviour, other times saviour anointed.
I difference u see seem to be self created.
Watch it.

Ihedinobi:

The bold is the summary of your argument here and it is a bald-faced lie. The Scriptures say, Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. That's Romans 7:12.

However, the law that Jesus brought was indeed a law of liberty. But its purpose was most definitely not to free us from Moses's law per se, it is to accomplish what Moses's law couldn't, viz, break the hold of sin over us.



This is a very bad twisting of the truth, my friend. "The power of the sin is the law" is not at all the same as "sin and death is the law". No doubt there is a "law of sin and death" but it is by no means the same as the law of Moses. Says Paul, "for I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." The law (or nature, that is the more correct term) of sin is that within us that pulls us toward all the wrong things. The law of Moses is a different thing altogether. It was a "handwriting of ordinances that was against us".

That handwriting condemns the sinner. It says unequivocally that man is a miserable sinner with no hope of saving himself. The law of Moses was God's tool for showing man how bad his condition was. Only such a man as has realized how desperately evil he is can seek help.



My friend, you're mixing things up very badly. The law was given by God to man through Moses to acquaint him with his terrible condition and teach him to look for help outside himself. The law of Moses had nothing to do with the tree of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil except in exposing what it had done to man in making him through and through a rebel against God.

ofcourse, if okey knows his onions he will still be able to defend his position. While i disagree with okey, i think know d position he seems to enspouse. Its calvinism, d part where d calvinist doctrine beats the lutherian one.
Expect d legal buhaha,

Goshen360: @ Ihedinobi,
You guys have said so many things that I do not know where to come into the discussion anymore. However, lemme pick from here asking you these questions. I hope to know your stance on this subject from the answers you provide.

1. When did the Old Covenant\testament ended?

2. When did the New Covenant\Testament began?

answers to both.
On the cross.

3. In Acts 15:5,10-25. What is the "content" or "scope" of the law of Moses that was discussed among the Apostles? That is, does the law of Moses in context include ALL or SOME aspect(s) of the law of Moses?.
I hope I have time for us to build our discussion from here. Thank you.

actually it was mostly d ceremonial laws in dat passage. But if he read paul, he doesnt specify, he talks of d fault of d whole law of moses and argues that d law has been brought to completion in christ. Not so much by work of flesh but by grace.
On another note, paul actually taught a part of d law eg thou shall not steal, though as a part of d new covenant not the old.

Ubenedictus: i too must agree, the law of moses was decleared void. But an even more perfect law now operate.
The believer is not a sinner may sound true after d sematics has been done, but "a christian doesnt sin" is a untruth.

Thank you bro. God bless you for the above.