Ubenedictus: my dear there is no point there, at time d translator translated anointed saviour, other times saviour anointed.
I difference u see seem to be self created.
Watch it.

No bro, there's no repetition of words with God when the Holy Spirit used Holy men to penned the word. Do you know even in our modern days says for instance, your first name is XYZ and your lastname is ABC. If you write\enter your lastname in a form in place of your firstname, do you know you're mistaken for another person?

Ubenedictus: answers to both.
On the cross.

actually it was mostly d ceremonial laws in dat passage. But if he read paul, he doesnt specify, he talks of d fault of d whole law of moses and argues that d law has been brought to completion in christ. Not so much by work of flesh but by grace.
On another note, paul actually taught a part of d law eg thou shall not steal, though as a part of d new covenant not the old.

Thanks for the answers. I appreciate it bro. However, Lemme wait for Ihedinobi to come up with his answers. And let's take it up from there.

^ Oh sister, that was too harsh please. Let's do it in a Christian way please. Thank you and God bless you!

^ Okay. Let it go please. I stand between y'both and say peace in Jesus name.

Goshen360: @ Ihedinobi,

You guys have said so many things that I do not know where to come into the discussion anymore. However, lemme pick from here asking you these questions. I hope to know your stance on this subject from the answers you provide.

1. When did the Old Covenant\testament ended?

2. When did the New Covenant\Testament began?

3. In Acts 15:5,10-25. What is the "content" or "scope" of the law of Moses that was discussed among the Apostles? That is, does the law of Moses in context include ALL or SOME aspect(s) of the law of Moses?.

I hope I have time for us to build our discussion from here. Thank you.

For #1 and #2, it was at the Cross like @Ubenedictus said.

#3. The whole of the law of Moses.

Goshen360:

I've explained the above statement in my response to Image123. Please refer to it above.



The above statement is TRUE and 100% CORRECT. Lemme try and do an expansion to the above statement.

Now, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are NOT the New Testament. They are the Gospel that records the lives and teachings of Christ. This teachings are FOUNDATIONAL to the New Testament that will effect AFTER his death. The birth of Jesus DID NOT START the New Testament BUT his DEATH.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15

The promise of eternal inheritance is NOT by the birth of Christ; it was BY MEANS OF DEATH. The new testament could have start until after his death and could not have been under the new testament in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; it has to be AFTER his death.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. Hebrews 9:16-18

English Standard Version (©2001)
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Galatians 4:4

Now, we need to understand two things were going on in Matthew, Matthew, Luke and John. 1. Christ was establishing teachings to his 12 Apostles and these teachings are what is carried on into the new testament and were foundations for the new testament that will effect after his death. 2. Christ came to fulfill and bring an end to the era of Moses' law. To do this, Christ had to represent the law in order to fulfill it and become [size=20pt]the sin that is in the law of Moses[/size] so he can set us free from the law of SIN and DEATH by becoming SIN for us who knew NO SIN.




1. TRUE and CORRECT. Because the Jesus that represented the law had to died to fulfill the law, Christians need died to the law of Moses that they might live in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. The law of the Spirit of life is not obeyed by the Christian himself BUT it is being lived out by the Christian. It is the Spirit of life in such Christian that gives the empowerment to fulfill this law of the Spirit, the believer ONLY yields to the Spirit to fulfill or obey this new law.

2. Defining rights and wrongs based on how the laws of MOSES defined them is what is meant by this statement.

3. With the law (of Moses) is the conscious of sin BUT with the law of Spirit of life is the consciousness of Christ who now lives us by the Spirit of life. Yes, a Christian can fall or commit a sin and becomes condemn by the conscious of the law which condemns to death BUT yielding to Spirit of life, a Christian CANNOT sin and if he does, yielding to the flesh, the Spirit of life doesn't condemn such Christian unlike the law of sin and death.

4. What shall we say in all these, shall we continue in sin because we are under Grace or that Grace may abound? CERTAINLY NOT! But "if" it does happen, we have an advocate with the Father. There's a big difference between CONTINUE to sin thinking that the Grace is there AND "if" we sin, we have an advocate with the Father. The former is an abuse of Grace while the later is a function of our advocate with the Father.

My dear brother, I'm very much aware of and indeed understand what you are fighting for, but in the battle for Life, the enemy of the enemy of Christ is not necessarily a friend of Christ's. It is possible to attempt to substitute the shadow for the Reality and give Christ's Place in a believer's life to a Law that has been removed and many have done it to their hurt. But, it is also possible to discount the existence of a Place at all. And, that is far worse for it nullifies the work of the Cross altogether.

And, as the Scriptures warn, a little leaven leavens the whole lump. And there is a little leaven in your post up there which has already contaminated a bit of the Gospel you carry. It is the highlighted part. It is necessary that you be careful of your alliances in the wars of Christ. The enemy's whole effort is to deceive us into thinking we're of one interest and color with him. If you're not conscious of this, you could waste a lot of energy in your fight.

Please, I beg you, look at the implications of imputing sin or offence to the law and you will understand the reason for the antagonism I'm exhibiting against @okeyxyz's posts. Study this situation carefully, my brother.

ifeness: Today's Christians are opposite to the Christ they claimed to follow That is why we ask them;"what would Jesus say about Homosexuals"?

Mark 10: 6 - 8
Jesus would reply:
6“But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.
7: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8: and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh.

Goshen360:

Thank you bro. God bless you for the above.

you're welcome, amen and amen!

Ihedinobi: Bro Goshen, first I'm sorry if my denunciation of @okeyxyz's post appeared to be a denunciation of you as well. The problem is that his post contains a very subtle but powerful lie. That lie attacks the very work of the Cross and it can very easily take in the untrained amongst us. And your endorsement of the post without qualification, that is, pointing out what parts you endorse and what parts you don't only increases the potency of the lie for Nairaland believers who follow your work.

Now as for the Christ in Paul's letters, believe me, He was not different from the Jesus of the Gospels. Jesus was born under the Law for the sole purpose of replacing it. He Himself was the Original Law that Moses was commissioned to make a copy of. So, just like the shadows of the night disappear under the rays of the morning sun, the law vanished upon the emergence or incarnation of its original. This is why the experts in the law felt that Jesus was breaking the law and still couldn't quite cite which one(s) He indeed broke. He "broke" the Sabbath, for instance, but they couldn't show how He did and He did that quite a number of times and in divers ways. Many of His stories are like that.

Nobody could convict Him of sin because He embodied the true meaning of the Mosaic law. And it is because He was the Law that the Mosaic law sought to copy. If He was guilty of breaking the law, they shouldn't have needed to find bearers of false witness to accuse Him. And if He hadn't transcended the law, they wouldn't have been so ticked off at Him. That was Jesus before the Cross.

After the Cross, we still have the same Jesus. The only difference is that He is no longer alone. His Life has been scattered abroad and many abound who carry this Original Law within them. That was the Purpose of His Birth, the Kingdom for which He came, the Mission for which He was anointed. From birth, He was the Anointed One, the Messiah, God's King in Zion. It wasn't some time later that He became the Christ.

Note also that the Name Jesus itself means Savior. It is Jesus Who is Christ. They are not two separate entities or callings. Jesus the Christ was God's Choice for the Throne and through Him God was going to build a Kingdom, a Family. In Him, the Creator became one with His Creation. That is Who the Christ Whose Name is Jesus is.

However it is completely true that Paul was particularly blessed with the deepest revelations of Christ. But it is not such that he says something different from the other witnesses, no. He just has a great deal more detail of the same picture. If a man finds Paul's letters in conflict in any way with Luke's Gospel or John's Revelation, there is something wrong with him.

Suffice it to say that Paul never spoke of Jesus difderently than Matthew, he merely elaborated on the same Jesus and made Matthew even more worth reading.

The Lord bless you, bro.

Very well said!

@ Adebeke,

Whatz dat? Obviously, ur action here speaks for itself. U just showed exact same reason why u were banned.

When u wanted to report a post, u could mail ryt? U got banned now, ur courtesy suddenly disappears

*SMH

Goshen360:

My sister @ the top,

I know you've left milk of the word and on the meat but now, It's time for the bone. Abi if that your egusi soup with the amala (represent the word) and better brokoto jam each other, if you chop finish, you no go crack bone ni? especially if na so called biscuit\soft bone? Abeg relax make you hear explanation joor....

I only chew meat from God's word and donot entertain extra biblical teachings. Any message contrary to d gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ as presented by the scriptures is another gospel.

Interesting thread!
Seems to have diverged from the initial reasoning of the OP but expository enough.

@Ihedinobi, I agree with quite a number of things you said. Jesus showed the real meaning of the law that is why he explained that adultery is not just the act but the action of the mind. That is why He said hate can be likened to killing as well as people can kill their brothers in their mind without the physical act.

He explained this law so that sin would not take occasion of the law to wrought all manner of evil works in the life of the believer.

When Jesus told the woman about to be stoned to go and sin no more that was GRACE. How some term grace as lawlessness still beats me. Christ interpreted the law as it should be done that is why the bible says the letter killeth, till the true meaning of the law is understood, some will still be living the wrong notion that Gods law are not applicable today.

Goshen360: New Living Translation (©2007)
Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
We know that whatever is in Moses' Teachings applies to everyone under their influence, and no one can say a thing. The whole world is brought under the judgment of God.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
We know that ·the law’s commands [ what the law says] are for those who ·have [are under/subject to;  are in] the law. This ·stops all excuses [ silences every mouth] and brings the whole world under God’s judgment,

Romans 3:19

Thanks @Goshen, you just posted scripture that nailed what I was saying. Those under law read the letter of the law and this letter killeth, while those in Christ continually have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in them through Christ Jesus.

Moses law said 'Do not commit adultery', Jesus gave the perfect righteous, spirit-led interpretation of the law 'Do not even look lustfully at a woman as that is the source of adultery'.
Matthew 5:28

Sin used the heart to get man to disobey God's laws as the carnal man could not fulfil the righteousness of the law.

Moses law said honour your father and mother including not disrecpecting them, Jesus perfectly interpreted it to the Pharisees that dishonour covers making vows to God of that which should be given to parents and even telling them about it. Mark 7:10-11

And he perfected His word by saying:

Hebrews 7:15
It’s not what goes into your body that defiles you; you are defiled by what comes from your heart.

Verse 20-22
And then he added, “It is what comes from inside that defiles you. For from within, out of a person’s heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.

Jesus interpretations dealt with the Spirit, Moses law covered the actions most times.

Snowwy,

The letter killeth IS NOT ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE LAW ITSELF - Read other translations. It is the law of Moses that kills, the written law. And you cannot say Jesus was showing the true meaning of the law while he himself say he came to fulfill it.

Also, the context of Matthew 5 is not Jesus showing the true meaning of the law, it's introducing the 'law of the Spirit' and hereby setting aside the 'law of Moses' - both will not take effect until after his death.

Snowwy:

Thanks @Goshen, you just posted scripture that nailed what I was saying. Those under law read the letter of the law and this letter killeth, while those in Christ continually have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in them through Christ Jesus.

Moses law said 'Do not commit adultery', Jesus gave the perfect righteous, spirit-led interpretation of the law 'Do not even look lustfully at a woman as that is the source of adultery'.
Matthew 5:28

Sin used the heart to get man to disobey God's laws as the carnal man could not fulfil the righteousness of the law.

Moses law said honour your father and mother including not disrecpecting them, Jesus perfectly interpreted it to the Pharisees that dishonour covers making vows to God of that which should be given to parents and even telling them about it. Mark 7:10-11

And he perfected His word by saying:

Hebrews 7:15
It’s not what goes into your body that defiles you; you are defiled by what comes from your heart.

Verse 20-22
And then he added, “It is what comes from inside that defiles you. For from within, out of a person’s heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.

Jesus interpretations dealt with the Spirit, Moses law covered the actions most times.

I very much agree with what you said, by the time of Jesus, the great moral principles God had given to Moses in the Ten Commandments had been turned into hundreds of ceremonial rules. People thought they were living holy lives if they just obeyed all those rules. But many people found enough "loopholes" to obey all the rules and still live wicked and greedy lives (Matthew 23:23-28).Jesus said that was not at all what God had intended. Jesus did not abolish the moral and ethical laws that had been in effect from the time of Moses (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 16:16-17). He affirmed and expanded upon those principles, but He said obedience must be from the heart (attitudes and intentions) rather than just technical observance of the letter of the law (Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 38-42, 43-44, etc.).

@Bidam,
Basically you got it. The law that killeth became the perfect law of liberty when Jesus came. The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus set us free from the law of sin and death. We follow the law of God after the inward man as we walk in newness of the spirit against oldness of the letter as the law is Holy. Romans 7:22-25. It takes grace to understand this.

Goshen360: Snowwy,

The letter killeth IS NOT ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE LAW ITSELF - Read other translations. It is the law of Moses that kills, the written law. And you cannot say Jesus was showing the true meaning of the law while he himself say he came to fulfill it.

Also, the context of Matthew 5 is not Jesus showing the true meaning of the law, it's introducing the 'law of the Spirit' and hereby setting aside the 'law of Moses' - both will not take effect until after his death.

My brother, you might be saying exactly the same thing as Bro Snowwy.

Just to help us all along, imagine the law of Moses to be a candlelight and the Perfect Law of Liberty to be the Sun. However hard the candlelight may try, it cannot end the night, it can only push back the shadows enough to help the watcher survive till morning.

Upon the break of dawn, the light of the candle's flame begins to fade into the sunlight and soon enough becomes completely unnoticeable unless you actually look for it. So it is with both laws. The law of Moses faded away into Christ Who became the New Law for the believer.

If that is so, it doesn't quite follow to assume that there is no law anymore. There is a law and it is a higher one than Moses's being of a higher character and purpose than it. If we keep that in mind and remember that Moses's law was a derivation from it, in a manner of speaking, we will be able to consider that an examination of Moses's law will aid us in comprehending it.

In other words, Christians are not bound by Moses's law, but they most certainly are bound by the Law of Liberty. And this Law of Liberty is most definitely a Law even if it is one of liberty. As such, it is possible to go contrary to it which contrariness is called Sin. And it is much easier to offend than Moses's law because it affects a lot more than external conduct. But it is also much easier to keep because it is within as Nature rather than a code without. And no, its requirements are not the same as Moses's because its purpose is different.