The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian - Religion - Nairaland
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How To Receive HOLY GHOST Baptism / It Hurt My Spirit When I See Christains Celebrating Christmas. / Disgraced Bishop, Eddie Long Finally Quit New Birth Church!!! (2) (3) (4)
| The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 10:33pm On Apr 21, 2013 |
First of all, I’ve lost my taste for complicating simple things about Christ. I am convinced that the best walk is the simplest one. Scriptures say that if we believe, we will be saved. So if you're seeking the salvation of Christ, all the Lord requires of you is that you believe. If you are in doubt or uncertain of your salvation, Scriptures say that if we ask and keep on asking, the Lord will give His Spirit to the one who asks. Also, we may be sure that if we believe, we will be saved because it is the promise of the Gospel. However, because of the high cost of presumption in spiritual matters, I am starting this thread to explain what the Scriptures say about when a man is born again or anew or of the Spirit, to explain about the moment when one has been saved. On another thread, I had been taken to task about the difference between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the actual moment of conversion. I hope to encapsulate in this thread all that I said there and make the matter properly clear as well, but it is not actually the focus of this effort. Who is the Christian? Romans 8:9 if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. That is, simply put, who a Christian is. As another bit of Scripture confirms, he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17). When does a Person become One? Ok. What do the Scriptures say about when one receives the Spirit of God? Acts 11:15-17 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? I strongly suggest that any reader of this post take their time to read the story of Cornelius's conversion and compare it to the experience of our Lord's first disciples. Now, some of us believe that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is a different thing from being saved. However, consider the following witness: John 3:3-6 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Now, I think that nobody ordinarily is confused about the meaning of "born of water", I'm quite sure that we all understand it to mean "baptised in water". We take that for granted, but we get all strange and somewhat confused about "born of the Spirit", it doesn't seem as easy to accept that to mean "baptised in the Spirit". Now, why is that? Before, we go on to consider why, let us see how the Scriptures above help us so far to know when a person becomes a Christian. 1. Jesus says that to become a part of the Kingdom of God, one must be born of water and of the Spirit. 2. Cornelius and his household were baptized in the Holy Ghost (or the Holy Ghost fell upon them, which both mean the same thing) as Peter preached. As a result, Peter asked for water to baptize them as well. 3. From all the foregoing, Cornelius and his household became Christians because of the baptism that they received. What about the First Disciples that were with Jesus before His Death and Resurrection? Ok. A lot of us believers are stuck here. The question we ask is whether the disciples were not saved since they believed in the Lord Jesus as the following Scriptures affirm John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. Acts 16:30-31 Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. It is a good question, I'll grant. Let us look at the Scriptures. Romans 8:9 states clearly that those who belong to Christ have His Spirit, it does not confuse words saying so. No one, no matter who they are, can claim membership of the Family of God if they do not have the Spirit of Christ. So, did the disciples of Christ have the Spirit of Christ before Jesus went to the Cross? In answer to that our Lord Himself said before the Cross in John 14:17, "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." And after the Cross, our Lord, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Between the two speakings of the Lord, one shortly before He went to the Cross and the other shortly after He had risen from the dead and was about to ascend to our Father, we do not know of any outpouring of the Holy Spirit or any kind of indwelling of the disciples by Him, so we may conclude that the disciples still did not have the Spirit of Christ even as at Acts 1. Important to note is John 7:31 But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified. Apparently, the Holy Ghost would be given only after Jesus was glorified. So when was He glorified? In John 13:31, Jesus speaks of a moment when He is glorified saying, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. However, why does He later say that the Spirit was yet to indwell the disciples? Because our Lord was speaking of a moment yet in view. He was speaking of the fruit of His travail, seeing it before it came. Our Lord was glorified when He ascended to the Father and sat down at His Right Hand. It was as God's King that He poured out the Holy Spirit on them that believed on Him. All of this means that the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit within them (if you like to say "upon", it's alright, we would still mean the same thing spiritually) until the day of Pentecost after Jesus had ascended to the Father. Thus, technically speaking, they were not born again or saved or born of the Spirit until that day. However,... TBC 1 Like |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 10:37pm On Apr 21, 2013 |
What about Faith? Was it not said that if we believe, we will be saved? Did the Scriptures not say in Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation? What part does faith play then? Is it not when we believe that we are saved? Well, again, let's see the Scriptures. First, our brother Peter says something very interesting in Acts 15:8-9 God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. The spotlight is the underlined. But we will return to it in a moment. First, it is worthy of note that Peter describes God's act of giving the Holy Spirit as an act of testimony to the purity of the heart of the one to whom He gives the Gift. This is very important to keep in mind. Now, let us look at another bit of Scripture to see if it will help us together with the underlined. Titus 3:5 according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; The underlined in the above relates to purification, I am sure that's obvious. It also relates to another a few other bits of Scripture which we shall see right now. Ephesians 5:26 sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word Romans 10:17 faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God So, there is a purifying, a washing, and a cleansing and these three words stand out in connection to these activities (which are one): faith, regeneration, and the word. Obviously, as Romans 10:17 shows, faith is vitally linked to the word and could not exist without it, but where does regeneration fit? What is regeneration at all? Well, the word itself means to restore, to generate again, or to bring something back. So, there must be something that used to be that is brought back when it is regenerated. And it is the act of regeneration that is refered to as "washing". That is, this regeneration that happens is a washing, a purification. Now, it is easily supposed and, in fact, is a popular sentiment that salvation is wholly a regeneration of a human being. This is not entirely true. There is more to salvation than a regeneration, there is something totally new and original that didn't used to be that happens in addition to a regeneration when one is saved. The Bible says that the first man was a living soul, but the second Man was a life-giving Spirit (1 Corinthians 15:45). In other words, they were different beings altogether. Adam and Christ are not the same at all. With that pretty much everybody would agree, but what some of us may not fully appreciate is that even the pure Adam before the fall is a completely different being from Christ. And that is a really big thing to say. You see, it means that when we become Christians, we are not merely restored to a pre-Fall Adamic state, we are made something entirely different from what Adam without sin was. But if that is so, what does "regeneration" mean? What was regenerated as part of the package of salvation? Well, we were. Adam, before the Fall, was pure, sinless and innocent, but not holy. There's a difference. Holiness is a bias like sin. As holiness is unto the Lord, so is sin unto ourselves. Holiness means that we belong to the Lord and are enemies of all interests that compete with His. Sin means that we are hostile to all the Lord's interests and care only for our own interests. Adam was created neutral, neither holy nor sinful. In that state, it was his choice whom to serve. We know that Adam fell, that he chose himself over the Lord and claimed sovereignty over himself and his destiny. We know that that was the fate of all his children as well by reason of competent representation and substitution. But do we realize that no one born of Adam can cross from sin into holiness without passing through neutrality again? That is what regeneration is about: a restoration to that initial purity and innocence and neutrality that Adam had before his choice. It is the gift of the Gospel. When the Gospel really comes to a child of Adam who is shackled in sin and held down by the weight of his own self, the first thing that happens is that the chains are broken, the prison gates are thrown open and the guards are subdued. He is set free immediately to choose once again whether to subject himself to the bondage that his father had sold him into or to arise and depart out of it. The "washing of water by the word", "purifying the heart by faith", "washing of regeneration" all mean the same thing: that the word of the Gospel restores us to a state of freedom to choose again whom to serve. I should point out that I am aware that the first of the three named here was directed at the Church which is already saved, but it is important to remember that salvation is both an event and an unfolding process, so I am not misusing that bit of Scripture. 2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire I urge you to read the whole of the chapter from which the above is taken. I am interested in the sow that was washed. Again, I say that the Gospel comes to wake us from the death-sleep of sin, to wash us from its filth and give us another opportunity to walk free. The action of faith is to take hold of that opportunity, to take the option that Adam had rejected and trust God with our whole being and our destiny. Once that is done, then it is God's turn to respond to that faith. But that faith in and of itself is not entirely what saves, it is that with which we accept God's Salvation and God must wait until we are willing to receive it to give it to us. He must wait for our hearts to be purified by faith before He can pour out His Spirit upon us. That outpouring is His seal of approval, His seal of acceptance upon the heart that He comes into. If we reject the Gospel, we only turn back to our chains, to our burdens and continue to revel in the filth like swine. It is evidence of a lack of faith that we do, evidence of a heart that would rather remain impure that we do. Faith, then, is the preparation of the heart. (EDIT) TBC 1 Like |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 10:45pm On Apr 21, 2013 |
What does one do then to become a Christian? Obviously, believe the Gospel, nothing more. If we believe that what God is offering in Christ is real, that we need it and that He indeed wants to give it to us, we will automatically ask for it and keep asking until we get it. It's that simple. It may take time because some of us have so much baggage that God must deal with to bring us down to the simple Gospel. I, for one, took nigh on twenty years to finally hear the Gospel although I practically lived in church and ate the Bible for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Or, we may hear the Gospel once and really hear it and in believing it, we are saved. When you have believed the Gospel, the Lord will pour out His Spirit upon you. And when He has, you will have within you all that it takes to live Christ in this world. Until He has, it will be a terrible fight attempting to live the Christian way. I emphasize that to be a Christian one must be given the Spirit of God. And that God is so desirous to give it that He will give it upon the smallest flicker of faith in the heart of a given human being. He will not keep even the smallest hint of faith waiting as He evidenced with Cornelius and his household. What then about the Baptism of the Holy Ghost? I suspect that the teaching of a separate baptism resulted from the loss of much of the Gospel in the course of history. There was a time that man appeared to have lost completely even the consciousness that Salvation is a gift of God, that eternal life could not be earned, but must be asked for and received as a gift from the Lord. It took Martin Luther to wake the world up to its reality again. Of course, it was not completely lost, for everything the Lord does lasts forever. It was obscured by those who preached the Gospel for gain for very long, but the Lord preserved it through and in the lives of many of His quiet children. The same thing happened with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The amount of confusion in the Church is responsible for misunderstandings like this. Much of the time, those who would interpret the Scriptures take dangerous liberties with them. There is no real reason to separate God's outpouring of the Holy Spirit as His method of birthing new Christians from the baptism of the Holy Spirit except perhaps for the need to appear peculiarly gifted with deep mysteries of the Kingdom. There are a few arguments made for the separation of actual conversionn from the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I have mentioned the disciples of Jesus and Cornelius's house. There is also the disciples in Acts 19. These ones are argued to have been Christians before Paul preached Christ to them and laid his hands on them on the strength of the fact that that portion of Scripture called them believers. However, there is no evidence that they had the Spirit of Christ at all and very strong evidence that they did not. You see, Paul had to preach Christ to them in the first place since all they had was John's baptism. And upon their hearing the Gospel, they believed and were baptized into Christ as well. Then, Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost. It's really tough to see why anyone would argue that they had been born again in the face of Romans 8:9. Did they have the Spirit of Christ before they met Paul? If anyone were to say yes, why do they say so? Because they believed? Well, Peter said that they, the first disciples, received the Spirit of God as a token of God's approval of their faith. So it does seem that the Gift of the Spirit followed faith, they were not concurrent. And, in fact, the language of Scripture suggests that they are not concurrent at all. For instance, we are told that if we believe, we will be saved, not that our belief is our salvation, but that our salvation comes because we believe. Finally, we are given a promise that if we believe the Gospel, God will not fail to save us. If we hold onto the Gospel as true, the Lord will pour out His Spirit. This is true in the first instance of receiving the New Birth. It is also true in the unfolding of our journey with the Lord. Always only believe and prove the truth of your faith by the measure of the Spirit that you have, for God cannot force upon us what we lack capacity to receive. And if you're wrestling with assurance of salvation, all you need do is keep in mind that God's salvation is sure and unchanging. If you are not sure that you have received it, continue to ask Him to reveal what your true state regarding it is. I assure you that He will. He did with me and Paul and a bunch of others  Grace be with all God's children. 1 Like |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Goshen360(m): 10:47pm On Apr 21, 2013 |
Haven't read & digest properly but by glancing through, this is a good stuff. I will contribute more later bro. Good & great job. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 4:23am On Apr 22, 2013 |
I tend to agree with somethings here and disagree in others..lemme point them out. Ihedinobi: Now, some of us believe that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is a different thing from being saved.Which i strongly believe it is. Between the two speakings of the Lord, one shortly before He went to the Cross and the other shortly after He had risen from the dead and was about to ascend to our Father, we do not know of any outpouring of the Holy Spirit or any kind of indwelling of the disciples by Him, so we may conclude that the disciples still did not have the Spirit of Christ even as at Acts 1.Apparently, the Holy Ghost would be given only after Jesus was glorified. So when was He glorified? In John 13:31, Jesus speaks of a moment when He is glorified saying, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. However, why does He later say that the Spirit was yet to indwell the disciples? Because our Lord was speaking of a moment yet in view. He was speaking of the fruit of His travail, seeing it before it came.the disciples were a timid bunch of unlearned people. The pharisees sat in moses seat and were intimidating for they feel they were custodians of the law.The disciples were well aware that Jesus was always at loggerhead with them.Hence they needed power to witness.Remember peter who was afraid spake boldly when the enduement of power came from on high.Every born-again believer has the Holy Ghost in a measure through the new birth (John 3:5-8;John 4:14). But this is not the same as the baptism in the Holy Spirit — the enduement of power from on High that Jesus talked about in Luke 24:49, Acts 1:8, and John 7:38. Just because someone is born again doesn't mean he is filled with the Holy Spirit. All of this means that the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit within them (if you like to say "upon", it's alright, we would still mean the same thing spiritually) until the day of Pentecost after Jesus had ascended to the Father. Thus, technically speaking, they were not born again or saved or born of the Spirit until that day. However,...You still did not put this scripture into consideration "And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit".John 20:22.Are you saying the disciples did not receive a measure of the Holy Spirit before Christ ascended? |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by dagr8(m): 5:39am On Apr 22, 2013 |
[size=15pt] @Ihedinobi...gr8 one...i av not been able to read through..but at least i know the msg  ...will get back when am free...meanwhile Bidam u spoke my mind  [/size]Bidam: I tend to agree with somethings here and disagree in others..lemme point them out.Which i strongly believe it is. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 5:46am On Apr 22, 2013 |
Ihedinobi:but scriptures are clear on that no?lemme quote an excerpts from hagin who had an experience in these things. "These Full Gospel folks preached something else I couldn't quite accept — the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. I believed in the Holy Ghost and in the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I knew I hadn't received the baptism in the Holy Ghost, but I believed in it. But that "tongues" business — that was a bitter pill for me to swallow. I had been warned against speaking with tongues. But fellowshipping with Full Gospel people who did speak in tongues was kind of like one fellow down in East Texas said: "It's like a slippery creek bank. You keep fooling around it long enough and you'll slip in." As a young boy preacher and pastor of a community church, I meditated and thought on the scriptures concerning the Holy Spirit, and I came to the conclusion that these Full Gospel folks were wrong about tongues. I concluded that tongues weren't necessary; they weren't for us today. I decided that believers could receive this enduem ment of power — the baptism in the Holy Ghost — without speaking in tongues. That was my own opinion, of course. It certainly wasn't Scripture.I said to the Lord in my heart, "Lord, I know these folks are good people. They are thoroughly saved — born again — and they knew about divine healing when my church didn't. I certainly do believe in the Holy Ghost. And I believe in the infilling of the Holy Ghost, the enduement of power from on High. Then I said to the Lord, "I sense a lack of power in my own life, and I know I need the infilling of the Holy Ghost. And I expect to receive, all right. But I am of the opinion that tongues don't go along with the baptism in the Holy Ghost, and that they are not for us today." Immediately the Lord spoke to my heart. I knew it was the Holy Spirit speaking through the Word of God. That same still small voice that had brought me off a bed of sickness and into divine healing asked me, "What does Acts 2:39 say?" I quoted the scripture, "For THE PROMISE is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39). Then the still small voice said, "What promise is that?" I said, "The last part of Acts 2:38 says,'. . . and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.' So the reference here is to the promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost." Then I hastened to add, "But, Lord, I believe in the Holy Ghost. It's tongues I am not sure about." (I had changed it a little bit this time to "I'm not sure." The Holy Spirit always leads us in line with the Word of God. The Word and the Spirit agree (1John 5:7,  . I am not in favor of just following voices, because you can go wrong following voices; you can follow the wrong voice (1 Cor. 14:10). But you can never go wrong following the voice or the leading of the Holy Spirit because He will always lead you in line with the Word of God (John 16:13; 1 John 5:6-.Jesus said, ". . . he [the Holy Spirit] shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you" (John16:14). There are a few arguments made for the separation of actual conversionn from the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I have mentioned the disciples of Jesus and Cornelius's house.The cornelius connection actually demonstrates God's sovereignty to gentiles who are the wild olive branch.God is no respecter of persons. He only respect his principles. There is also the disciples in Acts 19. These ones are argued to have been Christians before Paul preached Christ to them and laid his hands on them on the strength of the fact that that portion of Scripture called them believers. However, there is no evidence that they had the Spirit of Christ at all and very strong evidence that they did not.John the baptist who was the fore runner of Christ was actually preaching the message pointing to Christ.He called Jesus the LAMB OF GOD.John 1:29 New King James Version The Lamb of God 29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! So to say John disciples did not receive Christ is NOT true because John's testimony bear witness to that light. infact some of John's disciple left him to be with Jesus.Another point to consider is that John told anyone who cared to listen that he wasn't the messiah. John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. John 1:22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. John 1:24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; John 1:27[b] He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose. [/b] It's really tough to see why anyone would argue that they had been born again in the face of Romans 8:9. Did they have the Spirit of Christ before they met Paul? If anyone were to say yes, why do they say so? Because they believed? Well, Peter said that they, the first disciples, received the Spirit of God as a token of God's approval of their faith. So it does seem that the Gift of the Spirit followed faith, they were not concurrent. And, in fact, the language of Scripture suggests that they are not concurrent at all.stop complicating and confusing issues bro..he that comes to God automatically receives the Spirit of God. it is by FAITH and FAITH IS IN MEASURES.Every believer grows in grace in his consistent walk with Jesus.God has TO TAKE YOU THROUGH THE PROCESS BEFORE HE RELEASES HIS GLORY TO YOU. IT DOES NOT COME CHEAPLY. Finally, we are given a promise that if we believe the Gospel, God will not fail to save us. If we hold onto the Gospel as true, the Lord will pour out His Spirit. This is true in the first instance of receiving the New Birth. It is also true in the unfolding of our journey with the Lord. Always only believe and prove the truth of your faith by the measure of the Spirit that you have, for God cannot force upon us what we lack capacity to receive.SOME PEOPLE'S CONVERSION COMES EVEN WITHOUT THE GOSPEL BEING PREACHED TO THEM.PAUL CASE WAS THAT ILLUSTRATION. HE SAID WHO ART THOU LORD? HOW DID PAUL KNEW TO CALL HIM LORD? I BELIEVE IN PREDESTINATION. 2 Likes |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 8:00am On Apr 22, 2013 |
Bidam: I tend to agree with somethings here and disagree in others..lemme point them out.Which i strongly believe it is. I have no quarrel with what anyone may choose to believe, my brother. The only trouble is whether it is true. That is why I have put out this study for everyone to reexamine what they believe and hold fast the true. the disciples were a timid bunch of unlearned people. The pharisees sat in moses seat and were intimidating for they feel they were custodians of the law.The disciples were well aware that Jesus was always at loggerhead with them.Hence they needed power to witness.Remember peter who was afraid spake boldly when the enduement of power came from on high.Every born-again believer has the Holy Ghost in a measure through the new birth (John 3:5-8;John 4:14). But this is not the same as the baptism in the Holy Spirit — the enduement of power from on High that Jesus talked about in Luke 24:49, Acts 1:8, and John 7:38. Just because someone is born again doesn't mean he is filled with the Holy Spirit. I will quote each of the passages you mentioned here. "We receive the Holy Ghost in a measure through the new birth" (for the record, I know that we are given the Holy Spirit in a measure unlike our Lord Who received the whole bag, in a manner of speaking, but I think you mean something else which I encourage you to show from the Scriptures you mentioned.) John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Indeed the other Scriptures you mentioned spoke of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, but what they do not show is how it is different from the New Birth. Acts 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. As I already asked, do these Scriptures suggest that there is a difference between the New Birth and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost? If you think they do, how do they? You still did not put this scripture into consideration "And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit".John 20:22.Are you saying the disciples did not receive a measure of the Holy Spirit before Christ ascended? Ok. There is one question to ask here: had Jesus been glorified when He did that? But so that it does not seem that I would take away the merit of a part of the Word of God, I point out another portion of Scripture that I pointed out too. It was during the last supper, after Jesus had sent Judas to do his betrayal that Jesus said, "now is the Son of Man glorified..." Did He mean that moment, that instant in time or was our Lord speaking of an hour that went beyond that immediate moment? I agree that Jesus, by doing what He did in John 20:22 here, gave them the Holy Spirit just as it was in that hour that He spoke at the last supper that He was glorified. I only point out that we are speaking of the original caller-forth of those things that be not as though they were. Our Lord could breathe upon His disciples and speak in that manner as a symbol of what would yet happen. It would not be out of character at all for Him to do so, in fact, it would be typical of His Ways. EDITED. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 8:37am On Apr 22, 2013 |
Bidam: but scriptures are clear on that no?lemme quote an excerpts from hagin who had an experience in these things. You see, the problem with the above is that you say that the Scriptures are clear on the matter, but I don't see you showing this clarity. I don't mind an appeal to the experiences and persuasions of other people or believers, but sometimes we may get so hung up on these things and lose sight of what the Scriptures themselves say. Now, what exactly did Hagin say up there to show how the Scriptures are clear that the New Birth and the Baptism are different? And I did read it all. The cornelius connection actually demonstrates God's sovereignty to gentiles who are the wild olive branch.God is no respecter of persons. He only respect his principles. I agree, but you are not suggesting that it is not always a demonstration of God's sovereignty when the Lord saves anybody, are you? John the baptist who was the fore runner of Christ was actually preaching the message pointing to Christ.He called Jesus the LAMB OF GOD.John 1:29 I agree. But what really is your point? stop complicating and confusing issues bro..he that comes to God automatically receives the Spirit of God. it is by FAITH and FAITH IS IN MEASURES.Every believer grows in grace in his consistent walk with Jesus.God has TO TAKE YOU THROUGH THE PROCESS BEFORE HE RELEASES HIS GLORY TO YOU. IT DOES NOT COME CHEAPLY. Ok. But do the Scriptures say that "he that comes to God automatically receives the Spirit of God"? I have endeavored to keep things rather simple and easy to follow. With each point I have made, I have shown how I am only speaking the Scriptures, linking one to another. So, I would be much happier if you told me how I am complicating and confusing issues and I think you would be better served thus doing too. About the rest of what you have said, I'm not sure that it was in contradiction to anything that I said. But maybe I am not understanding it properly. SOME PEOPLE'S CONVERSION COMES EVEN WITHOUT THE GOSPEL BEING PREACHED TO THEM.PAUL CASE WAS THAT ILLUSTRATION. HE SAID WHO ART THOU LORD? HOW DID PAUL KNEW TO CALL HIM LORD? I BELIEVE IN PREDESTINATION. What was Paul persecuting Christians for? |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 8:40am On Apr 22, 2013 |
dagr8: [size=15pt] @Ihedinobi...gr8 one...i av not been able to read through..but at least i know the msg Will look forward to your inputs then. However, if Bidam spoke your mind, you should make sure to read my response to him. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 8:42am On Apr 22, 2013 |
Goshen360: Haven't read & digest properly but by glancing through, this is a good stuff. I will contribute more later bro. Good & great job. Looking forward to sharing with you, my brother. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by debosky(m): 8:56am On Apr 22, 2013 |
Very interesting topic - I agree that you do need to have the Spirit of Christ to be saved, however, not all 'receive' the 'fullness' of the Spirit the moment they are saved. Nevertheless, ALL who believe and call on Jesus immediately have the Spirit of Christ. For some people, there will be a distinct, separate time at which they receive the fullness of the Spirit, which is often called the Baptism. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 9:17am On Apr 22, 2013 |
^^ 1. My submission is that having the Spirit of Christ is itself the meaning of being saved, not merely that one needs the Spirit of Christ to be saved. 2. I'm not sure that I get the part about the fullness of the Spirit. What is the fullness of the Spirit? Why do some receive it in the moment of salvation and others don't? 3. Just to be clear, is believing and calling on Jesus the same as having the Spirit of Christ? |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by debosky(m): 10:18am On Apr 22, 2013 |
Ihedinobi: I agree and that is what I intended to convey. Even the man who invented Grammar struggles to express himself at times.
The latter is an interesting question that I cannot answer definitively - what I do know is that the 'experience' of the Spirit differs from individual to individual.
Yes they are, but I do. However, not all receive what I call the 'fullness' of the Spirit (as evidenced e.g. by tongues) at the moment they are saved. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 1:00pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
debosky: Lol. Alright, bro. The latter is an interesting question that I cannot answer definitively - what I do know is that the 'experience' of the Spirit differs from individual to individual. Ok. Perhaps if you described this difference a little or how you know it, we'll be able to work toward answering it. Yes they are, but I do. However, not all receive what I call the 'fullness' of the Spirit (as evidenced e.g. by tongues) at the moment they are saved. I think that I made some argument against this describing what faith does and that it is different from what it makes possible - that is, the outpouring of the Spirit. What do you say to it? Whyy do you think that believing is the same as having the Spirit of God? |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by debosky(m): 1:20pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
Ihedinobi: Ok, I will try. Firstly, those who are 'just' saved (i.e. without the fullness of the Spirit) have, nevertheless, had their Spirit transformed and given life. This life can only be given by the Spirit of Jesus coming to live in that person. This is different, in my opinion (but can happen simultaneously and most often did in the NT records), to receiving the 'fullness' of the Spirit, as demonstrated by speaking in tongues.
Once you believe, your spirit is transformed and is no longer dead - in that sense, believing equals receiving that life into your own spirit, which can only come about by the Spirit of Christ. That, as I explained above, is different from the 'outpouring' of the Spirit, which may happen at the same time, but is a distinct element. I'm not sure if I've added any clarity, but hopefully I can do more when I get off work. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 2:19pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
debosky: I think we'd better talk when you're in from work and have studied my opening posts. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 3:01pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
It is the Holy Spirit who imparts eternal life to the unregenerated spirit of the sinner (Titus 3:5-7). It is the Holy Spirit who recreates the sinner's spirit and makes him a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17). It is the Holy Spirit who bears witness with the spirit of the born-again one that he is a child of God (Rom. 8:16). But this is not the same as the infilling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1: , or the enduement of power from on High, even though the Holy Spirit is present in the life of the born-again believer .Jesus illustrated the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation for us very beautifully in the Gospel of John. In chapter 4, Jesus was talking to the woman of Samaria at the well about salvation.Salvation: The Well of Water. JOHN 4:13,14 13 ... Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of THE WATER that I shall give him shall never thirst; but THE WATER that I shall give him shall be in him A WELL OF WATER springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE. Here we see that Jesus was speaking of the well of water or the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation. Jesus referred to salvation as the well of water. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Rivers of Living Waters In the following verses, Jesus was talking about the rivers of living water which characterize the work of the Holy Spirit in the infilling or the baptism of the Holy Spirit. JOHN 7:37-39 37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow RIVERS OF LIVING WATER. 39 (But this spake he of THE SPIRIT, which they that believe on him should receive; for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) The water in both John 4:13,14 and John 7:37-39 is a type of the Holy Ghost. But notice that two different experiences are mentioned: salvation and the infilling of the Holy Spirit. First, to the woman at the well of Samaria, Jesus said, ". . . the water that I shall give him shall be in him a WELL OF WATER springing up into EVER-LASTING LIFE" (John 4:14). This is referring to the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation or the new birth. In John 7:37-39, the reference is to "rivers of living water." Jesus said, ". . . out of his belly [or innermost being] shall flow rivers of living water" (John 7:38). This is referring to the experience of the infilling of the Holy Ghost in the life of the born-again child of God. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 5:18pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
@Bidam So how do you know that the two passages in John arr talking of different experiences? Is it only because one says "well" and the other says "rivers"? PS. Did you actually read my opening posts? Did you really read them? |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Zikkyy(m): 6:06pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
@oga Ihedinobi, i don't understand this ya long post o! are you saying receiving the spirit of Christ must be just as in Acts Chpt. 2? or as with Cornelius? is it not possible for peeps to have received the spirit without any razz-matazz? |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 6:45pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
Zikkyy: @oga Ihedinobi, Oh my God!  It didn't occur to me at all that anyone would read it that way at all.No o, there isn't necessarily the same drama as there was in Acts 2. Perhaps the new believer will spontaneously speak in new tongues or prophesy upon the event of the Baptism. But, I can't say that it must happen. There is no record that Paul spoke in unknown tongues or prophesied when he received the Holy Ghost although we know that he had the gift of tongues. See Acts 9:17-19. I don't even remember if I started speaking in tongues when I was born anew. I just remember the joy that surged like a mighty flood through me and which has always felt like it's a quiet ocean inside me ready to erupt at any moment. It's probably different for others. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by dagr8(m): 8:59pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
[size=15pt] Kai...me no know where to start typing from sef... ...whether from the head or the neck or from d leg Meanwhile, i do respect OP's versed knowledge of the scripture (i envy u ) .I do appreciate the in-depth explanations you also provided. Honestly, i av learnt one or two things... I do believe the purpose of this thread is for us to exhort one another, look at the Scriptures together concerning this issue and learn from each other...so we would allow the scripture to be our guide... I choose to bring dis post from where we started d same discussion...to make things clearer [/size] Ihedinobi: I have therefore decided to start a thread specifically to explain the matter at length, but it will not be now. For now, however, I will provide a few points that I think are salient to the issue. [size=15pt] I posted something in the initial thread which helps us to understand d distinction between the two experiences... I will re-post d same with little modifications I want us to look at the scenario in Acts 8:4-17. Acts 8:12 (KJV)... says..." But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus ...they were baptized, both men and women" We can quickly run to Romans 10:9, Mark 16:16; John 3:15 ...to know if these guys are saved or not. Verse 14-15...tells us that the Apostles( Peter and John) had to come all the way from Jerusalem, of course not by plane or any kind of automobile, so you can imagine the time lapse.. Assuming one of them by name Mrs Ihenidobi (who have received the gospel and believed), had gone to the market to buy guguru or ewedu , when the Apostles came around and she didnt come back until the Apostles had left. Do you know Mrs Ihenidobi would not have experienced what happened in Acts 8:17, until perhaps another time.so we have a case at hand: 1.Is Mrs Ihenidobi saved or not?[/size] |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Zikkyy(m): 9:05pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
Ihedinobi: Now you know |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Zikkyy(m): 9:08pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
Ihedinobi: Okay. No wahala. Thanks for the clarification. though am not so sure I agree with some stuff in the OP. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by dagr8(m): 9:10pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
[size=13pt]You made mention of the case of the disciples Were the disciples saved before Pentecost? In your explanations they were not. Let's look at it together from the scripture I did make mention of John 17:8 related it with Mark 16:16, John 3:15; Rom 10:9 [/size] Ihedinobi: For instance, we are told that if we believe, we will be saved, not that our belief is our salvation, but that our salvation comes because we believe.[size=13pt] Your statement above makes all d scriptures earlier mentioned on believe less relevant... So we quickly turn to John 6:47….to get a clearer view of the other scriptures John 6:47: “ Verily, Verily, I say unto you. He that believes on me has everlasting life." Mind you, not “will have,” but “Has” Everlasting life(eternal life) means Life of God, life given by the Spirit when we are Born again…John 1:12-13. Rom 8:9 By Scripture I will say Mrs Iheniobi in our above example was saved. The disciples were saved too when they believed ( Jihn 6:47 makes us understand they re saved). We all Know they Believed John 17:8 and it serves as confirmation to the statement of Jesus in Luke 10: 20. I went ahead to make mention of Matthew 16:17 and related it with I Corinthians 2:14...as evidence of d disciples been born again ( as a result of their believe in the gospel) and later got baptised ( Acts 2:1-4) [/size] |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 11:15pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
@Zikkyy No one is required to believe or accept the op, my brother. You're only required to examine it and your own self. @dagr8 When God makes a promise, can we treat it like a current reality, like something that is already done? In other words, can we take God's promises like a check to the bank. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Nobody: 11:18pm On Apr 22, 2013 |
Ihedinobi: @Zikkyy Of course you cannot take a blank cheque to the bank. |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Kobojunkie: 8:06pm On Apr 24, 2023 |
First of all, I’ve lost my taste for complicating simple things about Christ. I am convinced that the best walk is the simplest one. Scriptures say that if we believe, we will be saved. So if you're seeking the salvation of Christ, all the Lord requires of you is that you believe. If you are in doubt or uncertain of your salvation, Scriptures say that if we ask and keep on asking, the Lord will give His Spirit to the one who asks. Also, we may be sure that if we believe, we will be saved because it is the promise of the Gospel.Man was born flesh and blood from his mother's womb. Jesus Christ told you this in His Gospel, affirming what God said in the beginning when He pointed out that man was made from the clay of this earth, not spirit - Genesis 2 vs 6 - 7. So in order to become a citizen of the Kingdom of God, a Kingdom where only those who are born of spirit can gain access, a first step in becoming a Son of God and eventually a partaker in the blessings and rewards of the Kingdom of God, one must first be born-again. And as broken down carefully in His Gospel by Jesus Christ, one must first be born-again before one can then become a citizen of the Kingdom of God. 1 There was a man named Nicodemus, one of the Pharisees. He was an important Jewish leader.○ Born of Water — Is an acknowledgment of the message spread by John the Baptist whose call for repentance as found in Matthew 3 vs 2 Jesus Christ was reiterated beginning at the start of His own Kingdom mission, "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand" found in Matthew 4 vs 7 & Mark 1 vs 15. As John explained in his conversation with the Pharisees, to be born of water — baptized — there is a need for repentance, a visible transition from following God's Old Law of Moses to following God's New agreement of peace —Jesus Christ. In verse 8 of the passage below, John instructs the Pharisees to change their hearts and show by the way that they live that they have in fact changed from following the Old Way to following the New way — Jesus Christ.  7 Many Pharisees and Sadducees came to where John was baptizing people. When John saw them, he said, “You are all snakes! Who warned you to run from God’s judgment that is coming?Suffice to say, the kind of repentance God desires is not simply an abandoning of one's sinful ways but more importantly, an abandoning of the hold the Old Law had on one to embrace instead a full commitment to following and abiding by the direct teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ alone. Once one is baptized in water after this, one is said to have concluded the work of obedience necessary for one to be Born of water. ○ Born of Spirit(Eternal Life) - In John 3 vs 16, Jesus Christ elucidated that all those who believe in Him will receive Eternal Life in place of the condemnation of Death which they formerly lived under as a result of God's judgment against sinners of Old - Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20. The Spirit of Eternal life, the spirit those who are in fact born again are born of, as described by Jesus Christ in the context of John 3 vs 1 - 21 is not a passive spirit. Rather, He is an uncontrollable invasion of those of the individual who is born of Him — a possession so to speak. This can be vividly seen in what Jesus Christ said of those who are born of the Spirit of Life in John 3 vs 5 - 8 7 A woman from Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink.”In the above passage, Jesus Christ equally describes the Spirit of Eternal life as living water on the inside of those who drink from Him again implying that one does not get a passive spirit but a conscious spirit wielding power inside of them when born of Spirit. The born-again process is clearly not of the mind but of acts of obedience and also of invasion by the controlling power of the Spirit of Eternal Life who then guides one into the Kingdom of God where eventually — if one continues in submission and obedience — one is able to become a son of God, moving on to attain righteous by seeking first the Kingdom of God(holiness) and God's righteousness as commanded by Jesus Christ. However, none of this will be possible if one is not first born-again. So, ask yourself today, are you born-again? Can you confirm today that the Spirit of Eternal life has invaded your person and is actively working in you pushing you in whichever direction He chooses? or are you pretending to be born again in order to fit into the religious circles of men? |
| Re: The New Birth And The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit - When One Becomes A Christian by Kobojunkie: 5:02pm On Apr 25, 2023 |
■ What does one do then to become a Christian? Obviously, believe the Gospel, nothing more. If we believe that what God is offering in Christ is real, that we need it and that He indeed wants to give it to us, we will automatically ask for it and keep asking until we get it. It's that simple. It may take time because some of us have so much baggage that God must deal with to bring us down to the simple Gospel. I, for one, took nigh on twenty years to finally hear the Gospel although I practically lived in church and ate the Bible for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Or, we may hear the Gospel once and really hear it and in believing it, we are saved. When you have believed the Gospel, the Lord will pour out His Spirit upon you. And when He has, you will have within you all that it takes to live Christ in this world. Until He has, it will be a terrible fight attempting to live the Christian way.1. It seems your practical experience as far as Jesus Christ is concerned began an ended with church doctrines, as all you spew is taken directly from the general script spewed from pulpits the world over. |
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