But @Oyb, if you consider communistic countries that we know of today, we see that it is not really a choice that was made by the people. The People in most of those countries did not come together to vote to have communism, it was FORCED upon them. Sort of like what we have had in Nigeria from dictator after dictator for so many years now. Even now that we say we can elect leaders, we practically can not object to anything they do. They claim we voted them in but the information we have says otherwise. Are you sure communism is not what we have right now that you are complaining of?? Core Values of Nigerians has absolutely nothing to do with what Nigeria has been dealt with over and over now. Nigerians can believe anything they want but at the end of the day, they have to deal with what is forced upon them by government and our recent history shows us that we may been in this for a while longer if we choose not to do anything about it and fast too.

Really? do westerners that practice democracy have a choice in what their governments do? I am not sure Americans wanted to be in Iraq last time I checked,rather, it was Halliburton that desired to be there.

We are far from capitalism, socialism AND communism. Your point is true that government does control our parastatals - but the people see no benefit - so we cannot really class it as communism. We cannot be communist because we privatise our industries - the only difference is that OBJ and his cohorts buy up all our industries at knockdown prices. What we practice is a mixture of tribalism, nepotism, big manism and thuggism.

Lol, good one!

Kobojunkie:


aaarrgggh, do you know how frustrating it is to debate intellectually with you anti-west types?? So suddenly your definition of capitalism and your deeming it as the problem stems from your delusion that the oil companies in Nigeria are controlled by the US government and hence defacto we have capitalism in Nigeria.

If you really look at the definition, Communism already came to Nigeria and is still in the fabric. From when we had dictators who ran an almost communistic nation back in the days to a country with majority of infrastrutural development and economy still controlled by government. We are still far from capitalism or socialism regardless of what individual Nigerians believe.

Needlelady, can you see what I am talking about. This lady's language is not that of a Nigerian or even an African. A common theme runs through her posts, that is strange for someone who only arrived in America 10 years ago.

Also note that while studies have shown Nigerians to be very individualistic even more than capitalist nations since 1960s, Kobojunkie, could not resist to make an outlandish connection between Nigeria's woes and commmunism, once she saw capitalism (which is connected with her non-Nigerian heritage and exported to other nations) was questioned as a root cause of Nigeria's problems. Again, if this is not an foreign agent, I don't know what is.

The fact remains Nigeria is practising an exploitative form of capitalism with a rich few giving an undue edge in the Nigerian market. Communism will mean Obasanjo uses the same car as the street hawker, rather than Obasanjo flying with an helicopter to avoid lagos traffic.

Communism will mean Obasanjo uses the same car as the street hawker, rather than Obasanjo flying with an helicopter to avoid lagos traffic

Are you for real?

stillwater:


Are you for real?

Well, explain communism for me. I was giving the a simplistic and obvious explanation on the effect of communism on the societal hierarchy vs what we have in Nigeria.

Even when you post the clear meaning of these things for people to freely read and learn of their own. They seem to skip it and continue instead to argue blindly. What good is that

Needlelady:


Really? do westerners that practice democracy have a choice in what their governments do? I am not sure Americans wanted to be in Iraq last time I checked,rather, it was Halliburton that desired to be there.

Look, I know you do not like the fact that we went to war from over here. But guess what majority of americans made the decision for this war based on what we knew back then. It has been 5 years now and we have learned much. Playing the blame game over and over and over for years has yet to bring them back or deal better with issues. At least you would do better to move out of America if you really feel bad about it . I don't know what good it does you to continue WHINING about what IS instead of accepting it IS and dealing with it as IS. You may claim you did not vote for but if you look back to the polls, it was almost sanctioned by the people of america. A Democracy !!

Communism is wonderful, great and the best - but that's just on paper.
A classless society cannot and will never be achieved, rather a state that creates a possibility of any individual to rise from the peasant to the buorgeoise to the proletarait
The concept of Communism was coined naively, it excluded the most important factor - people and their lust for power, Imagine a country were all resources(oil), services are controlled solely by the government < a few elected or appointed representatives of the people>. Nigerian oil sector is a perfect example - the embezzlement, power lust, corruption in the sector are all the things that come with communism. A Capitalist sector the Communication sector Improved greatly when it was transformed into capitalist sector compared to when it was soley controlled by NITEl. Futhermore Cuba, Russia, China are the leading Communist state and are all countries with infamous human rights violations.
I dont think that is worth emulating.

I guess we need more definitions and explanations of what communism really is for those who seem not to understand how it may not be good for africa.

ayanfe:

Well, explain communism for me. I was giving the a simplistic and obvious explanation on the effect of communism on the societal hierarchy vs what we have in Nigeria.

Communism-- a system of government in which a single totalitarian party controls all means of production and distribution of goods and services. I really don't think it's that simple.

Playing the blame game over and over and over for years has yet to bring them back or deal better with issues. At least you would do better to move out of America if you really feel bad about it . I don't know what good it does you to continue WHINING about what IS instead of accepting it IS and dealing with it as IS. You may claim you did not vote for but if you look back to the polls, it was almost sanctioned by the people of america. A Democracy !!

Almost sanctioned?, does the word 'almost' mean a thing to you? there you go again. I just cited an example on your faulted argument that the people make all the decisions in a democratic govt and decided to veer into the forest and how patriotic you are. You are not more patriotic than we Americans that still speak against the war. The war decision was not a unanimous one and many Americans were against it before the onset so don't blame them for a mistake made by a select few. I also hope you know that even the American president is not actually selected by the populace,it's only a decision of a select few in the electoral college.  Go and  confuse kids with your jokes abeg.

I guess we need more definitions and explanations of what communism really is for those who seem not to understand how it may not be good for africa.

What about socialism? Libya has been practicing socialism from time immemorial and you don't look better than them especially in the looting department. I think Cuba is following suit and drifting towards forming a socialist state under the younger Castro.

Needlelady:

Almost sanctioned?, does the word 'almost' mean a thing to you? there you go again. I just cited an example on your faulted argument that the people make all the decisions in a democratic govt and decided to veer into the forest and how patriotic you are. You are not more patriotic than we Americans that still speak against the war. The war decision was not a unanimous one and many Americans were against it before the onset so don't blame them for a mistake made by a select few. I also hope you know that even the American president is not actually selected by the populace,it's only a decision of a select few in the electoral college.  Go and  confuse kids with your jokes abeg.

None of what I posted has anything to do with patriotism here. I helped you understand that your claim is not based on fact since again, majority did vote for the war back then even if you want to claim otherwise now.

Needlelady:


What about socialism? Libya has been practicing socialism from time immemorial and you don't look better than them especially in the looting department. I think Cuba is following suit and drifting towards forming a socialist state under the younger Castro.

Well, It is ok if you want socialism cause you know it works, but wanting it cause you associate CAPITALISM with the west which you seem to be against is a different. I suggest you at least spend some time living in Libya or Cuba before making up on these ideas.

So Needlelady conflates communism with libertarianism? Talk of encyclopedic ignorance.

ayanfe:

Needlelady, can you see what I am talking about. This lady's language is not that of a Nigerian or even an African. A common theme runs through her posts, that is strange for someone who only arrived in America 10 years ago.

Also note that while studies have shown Nigerians to be very individualistic even more than capitalist nations since 1960s, Kobojunkie, could not resist to make an outlandish connection between Nigeria's woes and commmunism, once she saw capitalism (which is connected with her non-Nigerian heritage and exported to other nations) was questioned as a root cause of Nigeria's problems. Again, if this is not an foreign agent, I don't know what is.

The fact remains Nigeria is practising an exploitative form of capitalism with a rich few giving an undue edge in the Nigerian market. Communism will mean Obasanjo uses the same car as the street hawker, rather than Obasanjo flying with an helicopter to avoid lagos traffic.

@ayanfe,
That was strong!

Keep educating NLers! That Kobojunkie character is likely the most irritating of all the "I worship the West" crowd in here in Nairaland. She shares similar views with arch tyrants like Dick Cheney and the rest of the "We shall kill for a profit" crowd.

LASIEFAIRE:

Communism is wonderful, great and the best - but that's just on paper.
A classless society cannot and will never be achieved, rather a state that creates a possibility of any individual to rise from the peasant to the buorgeoise to the proletarait
The concept of Communism was coined naively, it excluded the most important factor - people and their lust for power, Imagine a country were all

FIAM!!!!!!!

Some definitions from Wikipedia:

Capitalism refers to an economic and social system in which the means of production are predominantly privately owned, are operated for profit, and in which investments, distribution, income, production and pricing of goods and services are determined through the operation of a market economy. It is usually considered to involve the right of individuals and corporations to trade, using money, in goods, services (including finance), labor and land.

Socialism refers to the goal of a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community. This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils—or indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by state, worker, or community ownership of the means of production, goals which have been attributed to, and claimed by, a number of political parties and governments throughout history.

Communism is a socioeconomic structure that promotes the establishment of a classless, stateless society based on common ownership of the means of production. It is usually considered a branch of the broader socialist movement that draws on the various political and intellectual movements that trace their origins back to the work of theorists of the Industrial Revolution and the French Revolution. Communism attempts to offer an alternative to the problems believed to be inherent with capitalist economies and the legacy of imperialism and nationalism. Communism states that the only way to solve these problems would be for the working class, or proletariat, to replace the wealthy bourgeoisie, which is currently the ruling class, in order to establish a peaceful, free society, without classes, or government. The dominant forms of communism, such as Leninism, Trotskyism and Luxemburgism, are based on Marxism, but non-Marxist versions of communism (such as Christian communism and anarchist communism) also exist and are growing in importance since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Libertarianism is a broad spectrum of political philosophies, each sharing the common overall priority of maximum limitation of government combined with optimum possible individual liberty. Its goals, though often varied in detail, prioritize freedom of speech and assembly, freedom to bear arms, freedom of and from religion, Press freedom, economic freedom, and freedom of ownership. Libertarianism rejects the compulsions of socialism and communism, upholding, by contrast, private property, whether held on an individual or group basis. It promotes personal responsibility and private charity, as opposed to welfare statism.

So Needlelady conflates communism with libertarianism? Talk of encyclopedic ignorance.

Mumu, i promulgated libertarian communism. Go and check the meaning.

Needlelady:


Mumu, i promulgated libertarian communism. Go and check the meaning.

I smell an oxymoron somewhere

By RichyBlack,
@ayanfe,
That was strong!

Keep educating NLers! That Kobojunkie character is likely the most irritating of all the "I worship the West" crowd in here in Nairaland. She shares similar views with arch tyrants like Dick Cheney and the rest of the "We shall kill for a profit" crowd

.
I am confused. Is Kobojunk a man or woman?

doyin13:

I smell an oxymoron somewhere

You beat me to it , but then again, this is NeedleLady here. By the way @NeedleLady, don't mean to go off topic but how many SoftPads have you sewn and are ready to ship to the gals in SA and Kenya?? Any Progress on that end?? LMAO!!!

Libertarian Communism  is actualy a form of state capitalism, where the government, not the working people, controlled all property and production.

more info:
Libertarian communists are also called anarchists. Anarchists are opposed to capitalism and the state, and they believe the working class must organize to overthrow capitalism and replace it with an egalitarian, libertarian system where each person's autonomy and individuality is fully realized and allowed to flourish, and human community and solidarity is fully realized. Three simmilar movements are known as council communism, autonomism (autonomist marxism) and the Situationist International. All of these movements advocate the self-emancepation of the working class, and are opposed to using the electorial process to gain political power, prefering revolution.

Needlelady:

Libertarian Communism is actualy a form of state capitalism, where the government, not the working people, controlled all property and production.

And this is better than what we have now because?

And this is better than what we have now because?

Because you don't know the meaning of Oxymoron. I bet you thought it meant a slowpoke that needs oxygen.

Needlelady:

Libertarian Communism is actualy a form of state capitalism, where the government, not the working people, controlled all property and production.

more info:
Libertarian communists are also called anarchists. Anarchists are opposed to capitalism and the state, and they believe the working class must organize to overthrow capitalism and replace it with an egalitarian, libertarian system where each person's autonomy and individuality is fully realized and allowed to flourish, and human community and solidarity is fully realized. Three simmilar movements are known as council communism, autonomism (autonomist marxism) and the Situationist International. All of these movements advocate the self-emancepation of the working class, and are opposed to using the electorial process to gain political power, prefering revolution.

Funmilayo baby. . . . . , ,

As cerebral as she is sexy

Needlelady:

Because you don't know the meaning of Oxymoron. I bet you thought it meant a slowpoke that needs oxygen.

hehehehehehehe. . . . . , . Moderator, you really need to start banning people oo.

You are so soft. . . . , i am now beginning to believe the rumblings that you are from Congo not Naija

Needlelady:

Because you don't know the meaning of Oxymoron. I bet you thought it meant a slowpoke that needs oxygen.

Well,  I am glad I am don't have the issues you have but the questions stands. It is better than what we have now HOw

doyin13:

Funmilayo baby. . . . . , ,

As cerebral as she is sexy

hehehehehehehe. . . . . , . Moderator, you really need to start banning people oo.

You are so soft. . . . , i am now beginning to believe the rumblings that you are from Congo not Naija

LMAO!!! I actually believe in freedom of speech, no matter how ridiculous. I am thinking Seun might end upfiring me soon as I am quite liberal when it comes to allowing people debate their ideas and delusions. LMAO!!!

Well, I am glad I am don't have the issues you have but the questions stands. It is better than what we have now HOw

What do you have now? Do you even have an economic system in Nigeria? I dream of a day when every mortal will be equal with no creme de la creme, the state will be there for everyone and there will be no need to take advantage of the poor masses.

Needlelady:

What do you have now? Do you even have an economic system in Nigeria? I dream of a day when every mortal will be equal with no creme de la creme, the state will be there for everyone and there will be no need to take advantage of the poor masses.

You must have Gabrielle's Dreams on Repeat in your player

Needlelady:

What do you have now? Do you even have an economic system in Nigeria? I dream of a day when every mortal will be equal with no creme de la creme, the state will be there for everyone and there will be no need to take advantage of the poor masses.

I have already explained over and over what we have now in Nigeria and how it is so close to what you have been asking for before this new revelation of yours. If you do not want to read those threads to get an idea of what we have now, I see no reason why we should go back to that line again.

Well, it is good to dream but I prefer dreams that are close to reality. Do you know of any "Classless" utopia such as the one which you dream of?? Let me repeat a line from the award winning broadway show and movie,  "Jesus Christ SuperStar",  "Surely, you're not saying we have the resources, to save the poor from their lot. There will be poor always, " . LMAO!!!

No matter how you cut it, you have to come back to reality sometime soon and accept that we will never have paradise on earth here and I say that cause no matter what you do, there will always be those who your idea of paradise is hell for.

Needlelady:

What do you have now? Do you even have an economic system in Nigeria? I dream of a day when every mortal will be equal with no creme de la creme, the state will be there for everyone and there will be no need to take advantage of the poor masses.

Funmi, shoot all em illiterates down! We are watching this thread carefully and support your position! You're doing great. FYI Kobojunkie is a woman.

From Wikipedia:

Left-libertarianism is usually regarded as doctrine that has a strong commitment to personal liberty and has an egalitarian view concerning natural resources, believing that it is illegitimate for anyone to claim private ownership of resources to the detriment of others.[1][2] Most left-libertarians support some form of income redistribution on the grounds of a claim by each individual to be entitled to an [size=14pt]equal share[/size] of natural resources.[3] Left-libertarianism is defended by contemporary theorists such as Peter Vallentyne, Hillel Steiner, and Michael Otsuka.[4] Geolibertarians are considered left-libertarians. The term is sometimes used as a synonym for libertarian socialism.[5] Noam Chomsky refers to himself as a left libertarian.[6]


@Needlelady, your point is made!

RichyBlacK:

From Wikipedia:

Left-libertarianism is usually regarded as doctrine that has a strong commitment to personal liberty and has an egalitarian view concerning natural resources, believing that it is illegitimate for anyone to claim private ownership of resources to the detriment of others.[1][2] Most left-libertarians support some form of income redistribution on the grounds of a claim by each individual to be entitled to an [size=14pt]equal share[/size] of natural resources.[3] Left-libertarianism is defended by contemporary theorists such as Peter Vallentyne, Hillel Steiner, and Michael Otsuka.[4] Geolibertarians are considered left-libertarians. The term is sometimes used as a synonym for libertarian socialism.[5] Noam Chomsky refers to himself as a left libertarian.[6]
@Needlelady, your point is made!

Did you graduate from the University of Wikipedia? Libertarianism cannot be conflated with communism notwithstanding what an article from Wikipedia tells you.

Not that the article in question explicitly conflates the 2 terms(libertarianism and communism) anyway but the idea that state control of all means of production is compatible with libertarian principles is preposterous.