₦airaland Forum

olabowale:
In other words, from the arguments presented so far above, we see that the Children of Israel have not lived up to the Commandments of God who specifically chosen them and brought them out of great trials in Egypt and on to safety.

alhaji:
1. It is up to God AND NOT YOU to judge the Jews.
2. The jews are not catholic, so how do the arguments presented above concern them? Their torah has the complete commandments so of what purpose is your statement?

olabowale:
Please can such a people still continue to be the chosen

Sorry, but the covenant God has with the jews is an everlasting covenant. It cannot be broken neither will you succeed in smuggling arabs into it. It is this kind of mindset that is driving the current middle east problems today. Mu'slims feel they shld be the ones to succeed the jews by force in the Holy Land God gave to Isaac and his descendants forever.

Apologies, it aint going to happen. Let Al'lah choose mu'slims if he wants, no point struggling desperately to force urselves into the commandments and covenant of Jehova.

i have two comments to make
1. that the contribution of imotep is most apostate,as it the most appropriate answer to the poser.
2.the name imotep belongs to an anchient egyptian priest who defied the then pharaoh.he did not have a particularly good , nor godly reputation . therefore it come sas some what suprising that any one would like to adopt such an alias.

all the same your respones is most apt.

Many thanks, my dear Olaadegbu. I had no time going through that pile they call Catechism as i am only smuggling time out of my office work hours to even read and respond.

I have gone through Imhotep's links and the furtherance you gave , i.e., http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a3.htm! You can see for yourselves. Even the Vatican site corroborates my assertions! The second commandment is completely missing on the Vatican site

Imhotep, now got anything good to say now? The very link you gave nails your coffin. So what is your stance?

While this is not to be seen as a war, it should be taken that there is something fundamentally wrong somewhere within the walls of catholicism. Have you asked yourselves fellow Imhotep, ebos, oby1, ~lady~, lawyer, orobo 50cl, (all catholic friends), et al why your authorities have decided to jettison a critical part of the commandments that God Himself wrote only to put their their own thoughts to play and feed you laity with it?

Could it be that they have something up their sleeves? If they do what is it? Imhotep, if truly you are truth conscious, then you should shudder at that omission assuming this is the first time you are seeing it stare you in the face like this.

cheerio!

@Cgift: Have the protestants faired better in what you accused mother Catholics? Afterall you worship more than One God. You created a graven image and picture of the so called partnership of God. Is your own condition, after you plagerised their Bible, minus 7 books.

olabowale:
@Cgift: Have the protestants faired better in what you accused mother Catholics? Afterall you worship more than One God. You created a graven image and picture of the so called partnership of God. Is your own condition, after you plagerised their Bible, minus 7 books.

Apologies but the above is puerile rubbish.

- Christians dont worship 3 Gods, that you cant wrap your mind around the concept of ONE GOD in three manifestations should not be an excuse for you to keep peddling this falsehood.

- What graven image did we create?

- Plagiarised whose bible? If we must pander accusations of plagiarism then NO ONE but the jews shld be reading the bible as the entire old testament was written by and for jews only.
Most of the new testament letters were written for jews and for jewish churches until Paul and other apostles started carrying the gospel to the gentiles.

Honestly people, if we are to REALLY count the points of the 10 commandments, you will see that it's nt even 10 but 12.

Here is how it is listed in the Bible. I will account according to the points.

1. You shall not have other gods besides me

2. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on earth below or in the waters beneath the earth

3. You shall not bow down before them or worship them

4. You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God in vain

5. Remember to keep holy the sabbath day

6. Honor your father and mother

7. You shall not kill

8. You shall not commit asultery

9. You shall not steal

10. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour

11. You shall not covet your neighbour's house

12. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his male or female slave, nor his ox or ass, nor anything else that belongs to him.


If we are to really count the you shall or points, it will amount to more than ten.

Catholics hold numbers 1-3 to be one commandment and number 11 and 12 to be separate.
Protestants hold number 1-3 to be separate and hold number 11 and 12 to be the same.
Jews hold the preface "I am the Lord your God" to be one commandment and numbers 1-3 to be one commandment.

So you see they are the same commandment, but counted differently. The Catholic church did not overlook the commandment you speak of Cgift, it is counted as the first commandment, just as the Jews. Remember the Jews had it before us and the Catholics had it before you. I would go with that of the Jews and Catholic church. Nonetheless, it is still there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

Strife just wants to be stirred up because of hatred. Imhotep let them be, they will soon burn out their souls. Clearly having disregard for the greatest commandment "You shall love your God and your neighbour as yourself"

Cgift, JeSoul, 4Him and others, this holier than thou attitude will only lead you to darkness. Olabowale, keep out of this discussion.

~Lady~:
Cgift, JeSoul, 4Him and others, this holier than thou attitude will only lead you to darkness. Olabowale, keep out of this discussion.

my dear, you cant keep avoiding the truth by labeling others as having a "holier than thou attitude".
Sorry, catholics are already in gross darkness when it comes to unbiblical heresies like the pope (vicarius filli dei) - a flagrant disobedience of commandments 1-3 in your own post, penance, purgatory . . . such as do not exist anywhere in the bible.

Continue having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof, we already know that of such we are to turn away.

my dear, you can't keep avoiding the truth by labeling others as having a "holier than thou attitude".
Sorry, catholics are already in gross darkness when it comes to unbiblical heresies like the pope (vicarius filli dei) - a flagrant disobedience of commandments 1-3 in your own post, penance, purgatory . . . such as do not exist anywhere in the bible.

Continue having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof, we already know that of such we are to turn away.

Sure whatever. I actually thought you had a counter to my post but you don't, because you have no grounds.
Hatred leads u only to darkness.

Would be nice to know which set of 10 Commandments you guys are fighting over? Exodus 20 or Exodus 34?

~Lady~:
Honestly people, if we are to REALLY count the points of the 10 commandments, you will see that it's nt even 10 but 12.
,
Catholics hold numbers 1-3 to be one commandment and number 11 and 12 to be separate.
Protestants hold number 1-3 to be separate and hold number 11 and 12 to be the same.
Jews hold the preface "I am the Lord your God" to be one commandment and numbers 1-3 to be one commandment.

So you see they are the same commandment, but counted differently. The Catholic church did not overlook the commandment you speak of Cgift, it is counted as the first commandment,

WRONG! please re-read Cgifts challenge it is not just that the commandments are simply combined differently by the different groups, it is that portions of it are omitted by the RCC!
Since none of the caths have bothered to show us the cathechism version, I will now post it myself, along with the link from your own vatican website.


Commandments 1 & 2 from the bible:

I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out
of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments.

Commandment 1 & 2 from the RCC:
1. I am the LORD your God:
you shall not have
strange Gods before me
2. You shall not take
the name of the LORD your God in vain.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm


Now what I, Cgift, 4Him and other concerned christians want to know is why this part
[center]You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments [/center]

  is missing from the cathechism version of the 10 commandments? please note it is not just simply re-arranged or combined into another commandment, it is completely gone!

Strife just wants to be stirred up because of hatred. Imhotep let them be, they will soon burn out their souls. Clearly having disregard for the greatest commandment "You shall love your God and your neighbour as yourself"

Cgift, JeSoul, 4Him and others, this holier than thou attitude will only lead you to darkness. Olabowale, keep out of this discussion.

Cgift simply asked for a scholarly answer to a very very simple question. Your response to play the part of a victim and cry foul, accuse us of hatred and strife, call us names, when all you have to do is simply rebutt his claims with biblical evidence. Is it because you cannot biblically defend yourself that you resort to those tactics?

olabowale:
@JeSoul: How was the marathon, yesterday?

it was fun oh! I even had one of my friends running in it - to run 26 miles is not a small feat! I could not personally go and watch cos the traffic was crazy but I followed it on tv. As usual the Kenyans took over yet again.

Alhaji, I see you still refuse to let the concept of the trinity go. . . na wa for you. 4Him said it perfectly here, how hard is it to get? eh sir?

4 Him:
- Christians don't worship 3 Gods, that you can't wrap your mind around the concept of ONE GOD in three manifestations should not be an excuse for you to keep peddling this falsehood.

~Lady~:
Honestly people, if we are to REALLY count the points of the 10 commandments, you will see that it's nt even 10 but 12.

Here is how it is listed in the Bible. I will account according to the points.

1. You shall not have other gods besides me

2. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on earth below or in the waters beneath the earth

3. You shall not bow down before them or worship them



Catholics hold numbers 1-3 to be one commandment and number 11 and 12 to be separate.
Protestants hold number 1-3 to be separate and hold number 11 and 12 to be the same.
Jews hold the preface "I am the Lord your God" to be one commandment and numbers 1-3 to be one commandment.

So you see they are the same commandment, but counted differently.

Obviously this is fraudulent! Who combined it? Which of the popes? and to serve what purpose? If indeed your people have fused them together, that presupposes that you still hold the protestants #2 command, i.e., thou shalt not make any graven image , in regards right? If so, that brings up a fundamental question then:

If indeed protestants command# 2. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on earth below or in the waters beneath the earth is what it is literally, how have you guys kept it? Are you sure you have not violated it in anyway with mary's statutes being bowed to and prayed unto? Let me give my understanding of that point #2 :

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: , What is the statute of Mary doing in your cathedrals then? Whom in the bible have the Catholics done this after? Again, why bowing down to it? When it is very explicit that you should not bow down to anything made with men's hands.

Let me give you another poser! Having another god does not and cannot be grouped as bowing down to another god. You can have gods without necessarily having a physical representations for them. Hence, the clear separation of the first command. It clearly antagonizes you setting up a god different from Yahweh in your mind like we Protestants serve God with our spirits without any physical structures erected.

The second refers to the physical structures/images like you have in the catholic church and states that you should not construct them to serve them or bow down to them. Of course, they could not have erected a structure for the fun of it without wanting to serve it back then. So, you should not have separated points 2 and 3 as serving different commands. They are one and only one in my humble opinion.

I think you only try to create more confusion doing a hard job trying to separate them when they are naturally one.

Strife just wants to be stirred up because of hatred. Imhotep let them be, they will soon burn out their souls. Clearly having disregard for the greatest commandment "You shall love your God and your neighbour as yourself"

Cgift, JeSoul, 4Him and others, this holier than thou attitude will only lead you to darkness. Olabowale, keep out of this discussion.

I think you should remove that protectionist garb of yours and discuss issues. Don't raise false alarms of hatred! Again, no one hates!

cgift: Many thanks, my dear Olaadegbu. I had no time going through that pile they call Catechism as i am only smuggling time out of my office work hours to even read and respond.

I have pasted most of the Cathechism's content regarding the 'first commandment' for the benefit of those who have refused to study ---- and are busy spreading ignorance in the year 2008.

Source => http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm

ARTICLE 1
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT


I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3   (Ex 20:2-5)

I. "YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE"

2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods."5 God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.

2085 The one and true God first reveals his glory to Israel.6 The revelation of the vocation and truth of man is linked to the revelation of God. Man's vocation is to make God manifest by acting in conformity with his creation "in the image and likeness of God":


There will never be another God, Trypho, and there has been no other since the world began . . . than he who made and ordered the universe. We do not think that our God is different from yours. He is the same who brought your fathers out of Egypt "by his powerful hand and his outstretched arm." We do not place our hope in some other god, for there is none, but in the same God as you do: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.7
2086 "The first commandment embraces faith, hope, and charity. When we say 'God' we confess a constant, unchangeable being, always the same, faithful and just, without any evil. It follows that we must necessarily accept his words and have complete faith in him and acknowledge his authority. He is almighty, merciful, and infinitely beneficent. Who could not place all hope in him? Who could not love him when contemplating the treasures of goodness and love he has poured out on us? Hence the formula God employs in the Scripture at the beginning and end of his commandments: 'I am the LORD.'"8

Faith

2087 Our moral life has its source in faith in God who reveals his love to us. St. Paul speaks of the "obedience of faith"9 as our first obligation. He shows that "ignorance of God" is the principle and explanation of all moral deviations.10 Our duty toward God is to believe in him and to bear witness to him.

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11

Hope

2090 When God reveals Himself and calls him, man cannot fully respond to the divine love by his own powers. He must hope that God will give him the capacity to love Him in return and to act in conformity with the commandments of charity. Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God; it is also the fear of offending God's love and of incurring punishment.

2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:

By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God's goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.

2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

Charity

2093 Faith in God's love encompasses the call and the obligation to respond with sincere love to divine charity. The first commandment enjoins us to love God above everything and all creatures for him and because of him.12

2094 One can sin against God's love in various ways:

- indifference neglects or refuses to reflect on divine charity; it fails to consider its prevenient goodness and denies its power.

- ingratitude fails or refuses to acknowledge divine charity and to return him love for love.

- lukewarmness is hesitation or negligence in responding to divine love; it can imply refusal to give oneself over to the prompting of charity.

- acedia or spiritual sloth goes so far as to refuse the joy that comes from God and to be repelled by divine goodness.

- hatred of God comes from pride. It is contrary to love of God, whose goodness it denies, and whom it presumes to curse as the one who forbids sins and inflicts punishments.

II. "HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE"

2095 The theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity inform and give life to the moral virtues. Thus charity leads us to render to God what we as creatures owe him in all justice. The virtue of religion disposes us to have this attitude.

Adoration

2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve," says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.13

2097 To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the "nothingness of the creature" who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name.14 The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.

Prayer

2098 The acts of faith, hope, and charity enjoined by the first commandment are accomplished in prayer. Lifting up the mind toward God is an expression of our adoration of God: prayer of praise and thanksgiving, intercession and petition. Prayer is an indispensable condition for being able to obey God's commandments. "[We] ought always to pray and not lose heart."15

Sacrifice

2099 It is right to offer sacrifice to God as a sign of adoration and gratitude, supplication and communion: "Every action done so as to cling to God in communion of holiness, and thus achieve blessedness, is a true sacrifice."16

2100 Outward sacrifice, to be genuine, must be the expression of spiritual sacrifice: "The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit. . . . "17 The prophets of the Old Covenant often denounced sacrifices that were not from the heart or not coupled with love of neighbor.18 Jesus recalls the words of the prophet Hosea: "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice."19 The only perfect sacrifice is the one that Christ offered on the cross as a total offering to the Father's love and for our salvation.20 By uniting ourselves with his sacrifice we can make our lives a sacrifice to God.

Promises and vows

2101 In many circumstances, the Christian is called to make promises to God. Baptism and Confirmation, Matrimony and Holy Orders always entail promises. Out of personal devotion, the Christian may also promise to God this action, that prayer, this alms-giving, that pilgrimage, and so forth. Fidelity to promises made to God is a sign of the respect owed to the divine majesty and of love for a faithful God.

2102 "A vow is a deliberate and free promise made to God concerning a possible and better good which must be fulfilled by reason of the virtue of religion,"21 A vow is an act of devotion in which the Christian dedicates himself to God or promises him some good work. By fulfilling his vows he renders to God what has been promised and consecrated to Him. The Acts of the Apostles shows us St. Paul concerned to fulfill the vows he had made.22

2103 The Church recognizes an exemplary value in the vows to practice the evangelical counsels:23


Mother Church rejoices that she has within herself many men and women who pursue the Savior's self-emptying more closely and show it forth more clearly, by undertaking poverty with the freedom of the children of God, and renouncing their own will: they submit themselves to man for the sake of God, thus going beyond what is of precept in the matter of perfection, so as to conform themselves more fully to the obedient Christ.24
The Church can, in certain cases and for proportionate reasons, dispense from vows and promises25

The social duty of religion and the right to religious freedom

2104 "All men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and his Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it."26 This duty derives from "the very dignity of the human person."27 It does not contradict a "sincere respect" for different religions which frequently "reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men,"28 nor the requirement of charity, which urges Christians "to treat with love, prudence and patience those who are in error or ignorance with regard to the faith."29

2105 The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ."30 By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live."31 The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church.32 Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies.33

2106 "Nobody may be forced to act against his convictions, nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience in religious matters in private or in public, alone or in association with others, within due limits."34 This right is based on the very nature of the human person, whose dignity enables him freely to assent to the divine truth which transcends the temporal order. For this reason it "continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it."35

2107 "If because of the circumstances of a particular people special civil recognition is given to one religious community in the constitutional organization of a state, the right of all citizens and religious communities to religious freedom must be recognized and respected as well."36

2108 The right to religious liberty is neither a moral license to adhere to error, nor a supposed right to error,37 but rather a natural right of the human person to civil liberty, i.e., immunity, within just limits, from external constraint in religious matters by political authorities. This natural right ought to be acknowledged in the juridical order of society in such a way that it constitutes a civil right.38

2109 The right to religious liberty can of itself be neither unlimited nor limited only by a "public order" conceived in a positivist or naturalist manner.39 The "due limits" which are inherent in it must be determined for each social situation by political prudence, according to the requirements of the common good, and ratified by the civil authority in accordance with "legal principles which are in conformity with the objective moral order."40

III. "YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME"

2110 The first commandment forbids honoring gods other than the one Lord who has revealed himself to his people. It proscribes superstition and irreligion. Superstition in some sense represents a perverse excess of religion; irreligion is the vice contrary by defect to the virtue of religion.

Superstition

2111 Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.41

Idolatry

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Divination and magic

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

Irreligion

2118 God's first commandment condemns the main sins of irreligion: tempting God, in words or deeds, sacrilege, and simony.

2119 Tempting God consists in putting his goodness and almighty power to the test by word or deed. Thus Satan tried to induce Jesus to throw himself down from the Temple and, by this gesture, force God to act.49 Jesus opposed Satan with the word of God: "You shall not put the LORD your God to the test."50 The challenge contained in such tempting of God wounds the respect and trust we owe our Creator and Lord. It always harbors doubt about his love, his providence, and his power.51

2120 Sacrilege consists in profaning or treating unworthily the sacraments and other liturgical actions, as well as persons, things, or places consecrated to God. Sacrilege is a grave sin especially when committed against the Eucharist, for in this sacrament the true Body of Christ is made substantially present for us.52

2121 Simony is defined as the buying or selling of spiritual things.53 To Simon the magician, who wanted to buy the spiritual power he saw at work in the apostles, St. Peter responded: "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain God's gift with money!"54 Peter thus held to the words of Jesus: "You received without pay, give without pay."55 It is impossible to appropriate to oneself spiritual goods and behave toward them as their owner or master, for they have their source in God. One can receive them only from him, without payment.

2122 The minister should ask nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by the competent authority, always being careful that the needy are not deprived of the help of the sacraments because of their poverty."56 The competent authority determines these "offerings" in accordance with the principle that the Christian people ought to contribute to the support of the Church's ministers. "The laborer deserves his food."57

Atheism

2123 "Many . . . of our contemporaries either do not at all perceive, or explicitly reject, this intimate and vital bond of man to God. Atheism must therefore be regarded as one of the most serious problems of our time."58

2124 The name "atheism" covers many very different phenomena. One common form is the practical materialism which restricts its needs and aspirations to space and time. Atheistic humanism falsely considers man to be "an end to himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history."59 Another form of contemporary atheism looks for the liberation of man through economic and social liberation. "It holds that religion, of its very nature, thwarts such emancipation by raising man's hopes in a future life, thus both deceiving him and discouraging him from working for a better form of life on earth."60

2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.61 The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."62

2126 Atheism is often based on a false conception of human autonomy, exaggerated to the point of refusing any dependence on God.63 Yet, "to acknowledge God is in no way to oppose the dignity of man, since such dignity is grounded and brought to perfection in God. . . . "64 "For the Church knows full well that her message is in harmony with the most secret desires of the human heart."65

Agnosticism

2127 Agnosticism assumes a number of forms. In certain cases the agnostic refrains from denying God; instead he postulates the existence of a transcendent being which is incapable of revealing itself, and about which nothing can be said. In other cases, the agnostic makes no judgment about God's existence, declaring it impossible to prove, or even to affirm or deny.

2128 Agnosticism can sometimes include a certain search for God, but it can equally express indifferentism, a flight from the ultimate question of existence, and a sluggish moral conscience. Agnosticism is all too often equivalent to practical atheism.

IV. "YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . ."

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. "He is the all," but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:


Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71
IN BRIEF

2133 "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your strength" (Deut 6:5).

2134 The first commandment summons man to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him above all else.

2135 "You shall worship the Lord your God" (Mt 4:10). Adoring God, praying to him, offering him the worship that belongs to him, fulfilling the promises and vows made to him are acts of the virtue of religion which fall under obedience to the first commandment.

2136 The duty to offer God authentic worship concerns man both as an individual and as a social being.

2137 "Men of the present day want to profess their religion freely in private and in public" (DH 15).

2138 Superstition is a departure from the worship that we give to the true God. It is manifested in idolatry, as well as in various forms of divination and magic.

2139 Tempting God in words or deeds, sacrilege, and simony are sins of irreligion forbidden by the first commandment.

2140 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the first commandment.

2141 The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God. It is not contrary to the first commandment.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9.
4 Mt 4:10.
5 Deut 6:13-14.
6 Cf. Ex 19:16-25; 24:15-18.
7 St. Justin, Dial. come Tryphone Judaeo 11, 1: PG 6, 497.
8 Roman Catechism 3, 2,4.
9 Rom 1:5; 16:26.
10 Cf. Rom 1:18-32.
11 CIC, can. 751: emphasis added.
12 Cf. Deut 6:4-5.
13 Lk 4:8; Cf. Deut 6:13.
14 Cf. Lk 1:46-49.
15 Lk 18:1.
16 St. Augustine, De civ Dei 10, 6 PL 41, 283.
17 PS 51:17.
18 Cf. Am 5:21-25; Isa 1:10-20.
19 Mt 9:13; 12:7; Cf. Hos 6:6.
20 Cf. Heb 9:13-14.
21 CIC, can. 1191 # 1.
22 Cf. Acts 18:18; 21:23-24.
23 Cf. CIC, can. 654.
24 LG 42 # 2.
25 Cf. CIC, cann. 692; 1196-1197.
26 DH 1 # 2.
27 DH 2 # 1.
28 NA 2 # 2.
29 DH 14 # 4.
30 DH 1 # 3.
31 AA 13 # 1.
32 Cf. DH 1.
33 Cf. AA 13; Leo XIII, Immortale Dei 3, 17; Pius XI, Quas primas 8, 20.
34 DH 2 # 1.
35 DH 2 # 2.
36 DH 6 # 3.
37 Cf. Leo XIII, Libertas praestantissimum 18; Pius XII AAS 1953, 799.
38 Cf. DH 2.
39 Cf. Pius VI, Quod aliquantum (1791) 10; Pius IX, Quanta cura 3.
40 DH 7 # 3.
41 Cf. Mt 23:16-22.
42 Ps 115:4-5, 8; cf. Isa 44:9-20; Jer 10:1-16; Dan 14:1-30; Bar 6; Wis 13: 1-15:19.
43 Josh 3:10; Ps 42:3; etc.
44 Mt 6:24.
45 Cf. Rev 13-14.
46 Cf. Gal 5:20; Eph 5:5.
47 Origen, Contra Celsum 2, 40: PG 11, 861.
48 Cf. Deut 18:10; Jer 29:8.
49 Cf. Lk 4:9.
50 Deut 6:16.
51 Cf. 1 Cor 10:9; Ex 17:2-7; Ps 95:9.
52 Cf. CIC, cann. 1367; 1376.
53 Cf. Acts 8:9-24.
54 Acts 8:20.
55 Mt 10:8; cf. already Isa 55:1.
56 CIC, can. 848.
57 Mt 10:10; cf. Lk 10:7; 2 Cor 9:5-18; 1 Tim 5:17-18.
58 GS 19 # 1.
59 GS 20 # 2.
60 GS 20 # 2.
61 Cf. Rom 1:18.
62 GS 19 # 3.
63 Cf. GS 20 # 1.
64 GS 21 # 3.
65 GS 21 # 7.
66 Deut 4:15-16.
67 Sir 43:27-28.
68 Wis 13:3.
69 Cf. Num 21:4-9; Wis 16:5-14; Jn 3:14-15; Ex 25:10-22; 1 Kings 6:23-28; 7:23-26.
70 St. Basil, De Spiritu Sancto 18, 45: PG 32, 149C; Council of Nicaea II: DS 601; cf. Council of Trent: DS 1821-1825; Vatican Council II: SC 126; LG 67.
71 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II, 81, 3 ad 3.

Imhotep,

events have since overtaken that your submission? Why combine commandments in a bid to conceal and make room for your violation of same? Mary's image is a brazen violation of the command which says , make no graven image or likeness of anything in heaven, on earth or in the waters? Why the image of mary (of the apparition and not of the bible?)

cgift:
Imhotep,

events have since overtaken that your submission?

Ignorance can never overtake scholarliness.

cgift:
Why combine commandments in a bid to conceal and make room for your violation of same?

Study, my man, study. Don't be lazy. Its all online.

cgift:
Mary's image is a brazen violation of the command which says , make no graven image or likeness of anything in heaven, on earth or in the waters? Why the image of mary (of the apparition and not of the bible?)

The answers are staring you in the face.

adereleseg: the name imotep belongs to an anchient egyptian priest who defied the then pharaoh.he did not have a particularly good , nor godly reputation . therefore it come sas some what suprising that any one would like to adopt such an alias.

@adereleseg
The film "The Mummy" is not the only source of knowledge you know?

The REAL imhotep was an Egyptian polymath, who served under the Third Dynasty king, Djoser, as chancellor to the pharaoh and high priest of the sun god Ra at Heliopolis. He is considered to be the first engineer, architect and physician in history known by name.The full list of his titles is: Chancellor of the King of Lower Egypt, First after the King of Upper Egypt, Administrator of the Great Palace, Hereditary nobleman, High Priest of Heliopolis, Builder, Chief Carpenter, Chief Sculptor and Maker of Vases in Chief.

More here => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imhotep

olabowale: @Cgift: Have the protestants faired better in what you accused mother Catholics? Afterall you worship more than One God. You created a graven image and picture of the so called partnership of God. Is your own condition, after you plagerised their Bible, minus 7 books.

Interesting, the protestants actually deleted 7 books from the bible. I wonder what cgift and the boys have to say about this heretical act.

----------------
When Martin Luther saw that the book of James did not support his "sola fide" (by faith alone) hypothesis, he sought to remove it from 'his' bible -  but is was too late.



-----------------------------
He had a low view of Hebrews, James, Jude, and the Revelation, and so when he published his New Testament in 1522 he placed these books apart at the end. In his Preface to Hebrews, which comes first in the series, he says, "Up to this point we have had to do with the true and certain chief books of the New Testament. The four which follow have from ancient times had a different reputation."

More here => http://www.bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html



------------------------------
Martin Luther argued that this epistle (of James) was too defective to be part of the canonical New Testament. This is probably due to the book's specific teaching that faith alone is not enough for salvation (James 2:24), which seemed to contradict his doctrine of sola fide (faith alone).

See -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_James

------
Imagine the audacity of this heretic!!!

imhotep:
Ignorance can never overtake scholarliness.
Study, my man, study. Don't be lazy. Its all online.
The answers are staring you in the face.

i think you should be dismissed. I had thought you will be scholarly enough to coin your own words up and present them here. Alas! what do we find? direction and re-direction. Link this link that? You dont even have a defense for yourself for a faith you claim to hold tight unto? How many times have i or anyone directed you to go and read up some piffles coined as catechism documents? When challenged to defend, you say its online, what a way to elope Its your trademark. can you put your own analysis to test without directing us to a place where one commandment was split in two to make up for the missing one?

cgift:
i think you should be dismissed. I had thought you will be scholarly enough to coin your own words up and present them here. Alas! what do we find? direction and re-direction. Link this link that? You don't even have a defense for yourself for a faith you claim to hold tight unto? How many times have i or anyone directed you to go and read up some piffles coined as catechism documents? When challenged to defend, you say its online, what a way to elope Its your trademark. can you put your own analysis to test without directing us to a place where one commandment was split in two to make up for the missing one?

Catholic teachings are WELL documented and have remained so for over 2000 years. Read them and stop disturbing yourself.

@ imhotep
U never tire with these self righteous pricks
Maybe cgift wants to start his own church and where else to get members if not from the one denomination that has the most members. Thats how most of them started. Tell them to divulge thier own denominations and u would really have a laff at the pots that are calling the kettle black.


Bottomline: Ignore them and they would quickly run out of steam

Uche2nna:
@ imhotep
You never tire with these self righteous pricks
Maybe cgift wants to start his own church and where else to get members if not from the one denomination that has the most members. Thats how most of them started. Tell them to divulge their own denominations and u would really have a laff at the pots that are calling the kettle black.


Bottomline: Ignore them and they would quickly run out of steam

I'm actually enjoying the whole show.
Its interesting to see how  hatred, insecurity and self-doubt can lead to such blindness of spirit. Anyway, it all started with the 'jew' man Martin Luther, their oga pata pata.

@JeSoul:

it was fun oh! I even had one of my friends running in it - to run 26 miles is not a small feat! I could not personally go and watch because the traffic was crazy but I followed it on tv. As usual the Kenyans took over yet again.

Alhaji, I see you still refuse to let the concept of the trinity go. . . na wa for you. 4Him said it perfectly here, how hard is it to get? eh sir?


Quote from: 4 Him on Today at 05:40:02 PM
- Christians don't worship 3 Gods, that you can't wrap your mind around the concept of ONE GOD in three manifestations should not be an excuse for you to keep peddling this falsehood.

Don't mind David the Ijebu boy. The same David who was asking for eye witness for the Splitting of the moon over 1400 years ago! The same David who could not believe a thing apparent to others just because it happened after Jesus by Mu/hammad!

The same David who is so cynical about everything Islam! Now tell him to proof it in a way that human minds can grasp it. Afterall, God will not ask you to believe anything unless your mind can take it. There is no logic to it that God will humiliate Himself before His creations, just to save them! One would ask, what was the purpose of commandments, and obedience to Him, if he now changes his mind? Are the issues of obedience and commandments dead with the death of god? If you realise that is not the case, then you will realise that whoever dies is not God!

Ironically, Al Wadud said in His Book that He is always alive and never dead. He further stated that He is not like His creation in all forms. He is Independent from all, while all depend on Him.

Has there been anyone whoever walked this earth, regardless of conditions of birth who fits this description? None.

Let continue to talk and just maybe, I will be in Boston in June or earlier. Then we will meet.

The word 'Trinity' is not in the bible.
I wonder why cgift and his crew believe in the doctrine of the Trinity.

Commandment 1 & 2 from the RCC:
1. I am the LORD your God:
you shall not have
strange Gods before me
2. You shall not take
the name of the LORD your God in vain.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

yeah so I opened the link and clearly found where it states that you shall not make for yourself a graven image.

You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments

It's funny how these exact same words appear in the link you provided to be missing it. It is the exact same way that the Catholic church groups it together.

It seems to me you copied it from the link and pasted it here for your own use. Hypocrisy is not good.

Really JeSoul, I expected better from you. Open that link and read again, because it's in there.

Obviously this is fraudulent! Who combined it? Which of the popes? and to serve what purpose? If indeed your people have fused them together, that presupposes that you still hold the protestants #2 command, i.e., thou shalt not make any graven image , in regards right? If so, that brings up a fundamental question then:

If indeed protestants command# 2. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on earth below or in the waters beneath the earth is what it is literally, how have you guys kept it? Are you sure you have not violated it in anyway with mary's statutes being bowed to and prayed unto? Let me give my understanding of that point #2 :

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: , What is the statute of Mary doing in your cathedrals then? Whom in the bible have the Catholics done this after? Again, why bowing down to it? When it is very explicit that you should not bow down to anything made with men's hands.

Let me give you another poser! Having another god does not and cannot be grouped as bowing down to another god. You can have gods without necessarily having a physical representations for them. Hence, the clear separation of the first command. It clearly antagonizes you setting up a god different from Yahweh in your mind like we Protestants serve God with our spirits without any physical structures erected.

The second refers to the physical structures/images like you have in the catholic church and states that you should not construct them to serve them or bow down to them. Of course, they could not have erected a structure for the fun of it without wanting to serve it back then. So, you should not have separated points 2 and 3 as serving different commands. They are one and only one in my humble opinion.

I think you only try to create more confusion doing a hard job trying to separate them when they are naturally one.

Yes the books of our Bible that comprises the books of your Bible is fraudulent.

I pray thee, why do you have a picture of Jesus. Why do you have a cross?
Remove the log in your eye first.

Lady, you and Imhotep are being disingenous . . . the phrase in contention is ABSENT from the "Traditional Catechetical Formula" on the right.
What you keep bleating about is a direct quote from Exodus . . . unfortunately you cant simply delete whatever u dont like from the bible since there are billions of copies in print but you can choose to pick and choose which parts of the commandments you want to follow which is exactly what the catholic church has done.

I do not write in defence of Catholicism or any religion.
I write in defence of the Truth.
Here is how the commandments appears in the Bible:

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

If you read this carefully, you will notice that everything on red has one theme, which is "Have none other Gods but me."
Making images and worshiping them is the same as having another God. Therefore, the expression:
" Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
is only a continuation or an elaboration of the first commandment. It is still the first commandment, since it forbids worshiping another God ie an image. The elaboration tells us that having images(sculptures, status, pictures.) of earthly things is wrong when we bow down and worship them or take them to represent God or heavenly things. Other than this, it not wrong to have images as long as the images are not worshiped. Thats why the commandment is elaborated further with:"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me"


Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
This is a completely different idea and not part of the first one. Therefore, this is the second commandment.
The second commandment is not, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."


The first commandment is:

1.) I am the LORD thy God! Thou shalt have no other gods but Me!

The second commandment is:

2.) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.

There is no omition here, only a summarization.


Cgift please read deeper into things. That said, I dont agree with the precepts of catholism but in this case the catholics are not wrong.

@Davidylan: Trinity in the Bible again? lol.

justcool:
If you read this carefully, you will notice that everything on red has one theme, which is "Have none other Gods but me."
Making images and worshiping them is the same as having another God. Therefore, the expression:
" Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
is only a continuation or an elaboration of the first commandment.

This is the problem with your simplification . . . taking "have none other God's but me" without the CAREFULLY ELABORATED EXPLANATION is a subtle way of making that commandment open to several false interpretations.
Everything written in the word of God is for a specific purpose and not merely as an elaboration of another.

Look at the part you people are quick to dismiss . . . it is pregnant with meaning.

" Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

This clearly makes the worship of statues of Mary, the veneration of dead "saints" andthe worship of the crucifix unbiblical. It would also be clear to those who are not spiritually blind that to make any mortal man VICARIUS FILLI DEI (the likeness of Christ on earth) is blasphemy. You would never be able to understand this if you simply looked at "have none other God's but me".

Lady, you and Imhotep are being disingenous . . . the phrase in contention is ABSENT from the "Traditional Catechetical Formula" on the right.
What you keep bleating about is a direct quote from Exodus . . . unfortunately you can't simply delete whatever u don't like from the bible since there are billions of copies in print but you can choose to pick and choose which parts of the commandments you want to follow which is exactly what the catholic church has done.

Seriously dude, IT IS NOT ELIMINATED. IT IS THE FIRST COMMANDMENT.

This clearly makes the worship of statues of Mary, the veneration of dead "saints" andthe worship of the crucifix unbiblical. It would also be clear to those who are not spiritually blind that to make any mortal man VICARIUS FILLI DEI (the likeness of Christ on earth) is blasphemy. You would never be able to understand this if you simply looked at "have none other God's but me".

Ok dude, we don't worship Mary. I have never said "oh Mary Mother of God, I worship thee, you are my saviour" or "Saint Monica, I worship thee and you are my saviour"
I have NEVER witnessed any Catholic do so. So stop with the madness. YOU are making it what it is not. God forbid me worship Mary or anyone other than God. I don't see anything wrong in honouring.
Oh my goodness, if you have a problem with it, then protest the building of Martin Luther King Jr. Monument in Washington. He no longer walks the earth. Infact go to Naija and protest all statues, those people no longer walk the earth. Go to Ghana and protest the monument on Kwame Nkrumah. For real dude, do you know the difference between honour and worship. I doubt you do.
Stop making a false claim because you want to run your mouth.

VICARIUS FILLI DEI (the likeness of Christ on earth)

Aren't we supposed to be like Christ? Isn't that what Christianity means? Drop the term Christian.

4 Him:
This is the problem with your simplification . . . taking "have none other God's but me" without the CAREFULLY ELABORATED EXPLANATION is a subtle way of making that commandment open to several false interpretations.

I see your point but that is not enough reason to labell the elaboration a commandment. They are numbered, summarized by their main points or their themes. If somebody lets himself be lead astray by the summarization, then that is the person fault. Still that doesn't mean that " thou shalt no make image , " is the second commandment, it reamins an elaboration of the first commandment. If somebody feels that the summarization is open to false interpretations, then he should read the Scriptures where it is fully elaborated. But for the sake of memory, it is nessecary that the commandments are summarized and numbered, otherwise they will be hard to memorize.

4 Him:
Everything written in the word of God is for a specific purpose and not merely as an elaboration of another.

If this is the case then why don't you add, "And God spake all these words, saying," as the first commandment.  You cannot because it is not a commandment but rather and narrative stating that God spoke to Moses. You cant labell everything a commandment just because it is written in the Bible. Actually as you mature spiritually, you will come to the realizations that the ten commandments are actually two commandments. (1) Love God with all your might, and (2) Love your neighbor as yourself. On this I can elaborate further.

4 Him:
This clearly makes the worship of statues of Mary, the veneration of dead "saints" andthe worship of the crucifix unbiblical. It would also be clear to those who are not spiritually blind that to make any mortal man VICARIUS FILLI DEI (the likeness of Christ on earth) is blasphemy. You would never be able to understand this if you simply looked at "have none other God's but me".

Here you are right. Mary worship, the veneration of the dead and the worship of the crucifix is wrong. But the Protestants have not fared better than the catholics in this either. The protestant pastors call themselves "Gods anointed." They label everything they do with, "In the name of the Lord/Jesus" even when they are lying or not sure of what they are saying. Going to pastoral school, learning how to preach and being anointed by a church(all of which are man made) does not make anybody "Gods anointed." They should rather call themselves "self anointed." Who gave them the right to call thier Churches(which are nothing but business) names like "Christ's embassy, Church of God, Church of Jesus, and etc" All the above names are blashpemous and against the second commandment: Thou shalt not use the NAME of thy LORD in vain.

@Davidylan:

alhaji:
1. It is up to God AND NOT YOU to judge the Jews.
2. The jews are not catholic, so how do the arguments presented above concern them? Their torah has the complete commandments so of what purpose is your statement?

Weren't the first christians exclusively from the ranks of the Children of Israel? Or are they Ogun state people now, specifically the Ijebu Ode people? lol. Or me a mu/slim will have to remind you of how the associates of Jesus were called Christians? Further, if you know enough Jews, you will not be posing your question above about them to me. They do not follow Torah exclusively, contrary to what you have insuniated. The purpose of my statement, therefore is to educate you about the skiddishness of the Jews, concerning the laws/commandments, duuh. lol.

You will have to agree therefore that the complete commandments in the Torah, is nothing more than a window dressing.

Sorry, but the covenant God has with the jews is an everlasting covenant. It cannot be broken neither will you succeed in smuggling arabs into it. It is this kind of mindset that is driving the current middle east problems today. Mu'slims feel they shld be the ones to succeed the jews by force in the Holy Land God gave to Isaac and his descendants forever.

Ironic that you states that the covenant with the jews is everlasting. First, is there any conditions attached to it? What happens if there is any disobedience and disregards of any of the laws/commandments? The disobedients will not be punished? They will be rewarded with Candies and all kinds of goodies (David am sure you know that am refering to Paradise and hellfire here)? I remember that the crowd who made Golden calf were killed off and even forced to drink water laden with that gold powder from their crime. None of them saw the "promised land." Remember now? Those people were under the covenants, would they go to Jewish paradise regardless?



And if the jews have this everlasting covenant where they can do no wrong, what kind of god enters such a covenant which does give all kind of leeways for him to be abused? His laws disregarded, with such as a repremind?

By the way, if Jews are this fantastic with God, then Christians must be in the dog-house on this. For it is not possible for the Christians, the johnnie come lately between the two to be more favored by God that the "Chosen people!" Lol.

Apologies, it aint going to happen. Let Al'lah choose mu'slims if he wants, no point struggling desperately to force urselves into the commandments and covenant of Jehova.

Alleluia! Produce jehova from that. Or you wanna try Yahweh for size? Claim what you wil from now till Sunday, the fact will not change even if you denied it.

Allah says in the Qur/an that Ibrahiim was not a Jew nor a Christian, but a negator of multiple heads god belief, he was a Muslim and did not associate any partnership with One God. I guess you will try to disregard the relationship of god with Ibrahiim. It is the covenant of Ibrahiim that the Mu/slims count on. thats where we have our relationship with God. Not through the tribalistic Jews or the multple heads god worshipper Christians! lol.