"Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! - Religion (31) - Nairaland
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| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 10:52pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
benalvino:Did God create his own glory by creating man who is his glory??......... benalvino: And you forgot born,given birth,birthed..... benalvino:Lol........ How many saviours do we have??...... Is it not the Father alone??...... All glory and absolute recognition goes to the source and not the vendor.... Thank you..... benalvino: Lol...ok make I change the name......conduit,agent.....  ...benalvino:And the news is his first created son was with him before the world was born and was a master worker...... This in no way contradicts anything.... benalvino:So Jesus is and could be a servant but not an angel??.....you be mumu ooo....  ..and malachi dey wait you......keep running like a girl..... benalvino:But you yourself from your definition called Jesus an angel...abi you want make I re-paste am for you?? Your problem is you can't bear to stand the fact that Jesus is Gods messneger/angel.... ...benalvino: He is the beginning of Gods creation.....someone else created him..his Life/existence is strictly on someone.... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 10:55pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
Itsfacts: Lol..... Have you replied me on the other thread after your stark olodo brain was schooled??....  .....Ben is even trying to reason from the scriptures....as for you ,you are a non entity...... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 11:10pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
ijawkid:i can agree that you dont know what glory is... so i wont talk about this with you... lol learn it. no need to comment on second point... you still dont have case. this is not about saviors... its about contradiction thank you... the glory and whatever goes to the source fine... but the source says vendor was not there so how come vendor was there? is the source lying? your contradictions mounting you cant run away from this contradiction... there is not agent... this is not a 007 james bond case the son was with him... i agree... so the father lie when he says no one was with him? how do you solve this? up there you said only the father create... now you said the son was there... ok i pretend to agree with the other two... even if they contradict twice already... to make it trinity of contradictions from you... Did the father lie when he says no one was there? abeg moses was a servant and not an angel... lol see your self? abraham etc are all servants of god... messengers of God... but they are not an angel. dont fight it accept it... what definition? keep dreaming... lol but the bible says without Jesus not a single thing came into being... that mean he did not come into being without him... another contradiction.  |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 11:10pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
And benalvino...... Can we from the scriptures also find out if human messengers were called angels??.... Would you like to go on an exposition??.... At least let you myopic views be cleared.... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 11:22pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
benalvino:I know what glory is just as I know what wisdom is in proverbs 8:22..... ......you said Jesus is Gods inherent wisdom...I insisted capital NO!!...why??..because the wisdom under consideration was created.... You refused....then I forwarded Gods glory which is man.....if I were you I would assume man is Gods inherent glory....,No??..... benalvino:You were stunned to know that even Jesus himself has a saviour,which hit the point why the Father is recognized as the one saviour even though through out history he had appointed vendors to act as saviours.......remember....the source takes all the glory..... you can keep struggling to agree with me or not.... benalvino: Do you know that even the angels were there when God created the world??.... NO??...... An agent or vendor being recognized does not negate the Fathers right to exclusive creation of everybody and everything..... benalvino: Servant and angel which sounds more derogatory??...... Would u love to see where humans were refered to as angels??...... And once again malachi made no mistake by refereing to Jesus as MALAk which you defined well to debunk yourself.... benalvino: Please paste the same definition of angleos and malak you pasted earlier on this thread... benalvino: And who brought the Jesus into existence??... It seems the origin of Jesus' life isn't your business...... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 11:23pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
ijawkid: And benalvino...... are you saying humans will Judge Jesus? do you know we will be better than the angels? |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 11:27pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
You failed badly with the contradictions... i will give you another Go to try eliminate them. ijawkid: |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 11:30pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
benalvino: Who ever talked about angels judging Jesus....... When would you be better than angels??..... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 11:31pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
benalvino: You failed badly with the contradictions... i will give you another Go to try eliminate them. It is in your brain that it sounds like contradiction....... Was the wisdom in proverbs 8:22-31 not created,birthed or not??..... This is where your misery lies.... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 11:37pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
ijawkid: But Humans will Judge Jesus? to judge someone you have to be superior... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 11:41pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
im justback from work, lekki trafic na wah, let me go through the tread from my last post! |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 11:43pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
benalvino: Who talked about judging??...ben u sure say u no dey drink alomo dey reply?... Who talked about judging??...... Oh and that reminds me...... We could also use judging to describe what I have been trying to say....... Who is the ONE judge of all??...... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 11:47pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
ijawkid: humans are better than angels... when Jesus come... 1 Corinthians 6:3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? so if Jesus is an angel we will be Judging him? angels cant judge humans but we will Judge angels... i stand corrected... if angels can judge humans let me know. |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 11:52pm On Jul 10, 2013 |
benalvino: Which angels are we to judge??..... Please kindly tell me the angels we are to judge..... Be careful on this path of argument,because you are about to be debunked and shamed..... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 12:05am On Jul 11, 2013 |
ijawkid: when it says angels... it says angels there are thousands of angels... I dont know 10% of them... if they commit sin we will judge them.... now tell me one angel that judges humans or angels? |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 12:09am On Jul 11, 2013 |
benalvino:U said if the angels commit sin abi??... So which angels have commited sin??......kindly tell us.... And you want to know an angel who judges humans or angels??...... Arch angel micheal...... ...Please read daniel 12:1-3..... Thank you for leading us to this junction.... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 12:37am On Jul 11, 2013 |
ijawkid:[size=48pt] ZZZZZZ[/size] |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 12:41am On Jul 11, 2013 |
benalvino: Me sef sleep wan kill me.....when we wake up we continue...... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 12:46am On Jul 11, 2013 |
benalvino benalvino: ToTal CRAP!!! (1)[size=14pt]jesus appeared just the same way angels described as being made 'in flaming fire'; [/size] benalvino:Hebrews 1:7 “And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.” [size=18pt] 2 Thessalonians 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well[/size].[size=18pt] This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. [/size] benalvino :nature of Angels are savants and ministers[/b] Hebrews 1:14[b] benalvino:[/b](Regarding the angels) “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” the bold shows that the (2)[size=18pt]jesus even started the ministering for salvation before the angels[/size]; Hebrews 2:3; 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, me and you know angels are savants of God... including michael [size=28pt]lie[/size] let me blow this up very quickly just with 2 verses, ; Act 3:13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, [size=18pt]glorified His Servant Jesus,[/size] whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [Him] go. Act 3:26 "To you first, God, having raised up [size=18pt]His Servant Jesus[/size], [size=18pt]sent Him to bless you[/size], in turning away every one [of you] from your iniquities." Hebrews 2:5 states,[b] “For unto the angels [/b]hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.” (3)"unto the angels" yes, God did not commit the world to the 'angels' (plural) but a singular one 'first of' arch/chief angel. im making case of an arch/chief/angel/angel but you are quoting a verse making case of 'angels', thats different ok? so what else again? (Quote) (Report) (Like) |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by Itsfacts: 1:01am On Jul 11, 2013 |
^^monkey an archangel no be angel? |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 1:09am On Jul 11, 2013 |
benalvino we are getting closer to page50, |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 8:49am On Jul 11, 2013 |
2 Thessalonians 1:7so Jesus has the nature of angels... Cause he came in blazing fire? really? well that's not what the bible say of Jesus... jesus even started the ministering for salvation before the angels;this did not help you argument... did not say Jesus was angel Act 3:13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [Him] go.crap... phil 2 6 still stands you acts verses did not touch it. read Phil and understand it... angels include michael. if you like twist english it does help |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by truthislight: 2:39pm On Jul 11, 2013 |
BERNIMOORE: benalvino The value will only worth the effort if the person it is being expanded on is a honest person. But i dont think so with good reasons and evidence. Any way, others maybe reading. Peace. |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 3:04pm On Jul 11, 2013 |
truthislight: the biased is running through the blood... you said jesus is not God cause verse did not say the 3 are one God... am asking you biased guys to present a verse that says Michael is Jesus... or Jesus is angel yet you cant. lol talk about hypocrisy |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 12:13am On Jul 12, 2013 |
benalvino am asking you biased guys to present a verse that says Michael is Jesus... or Jesus is angel yet you cant. lol talk about hypocrisy on pg 28, when you asked me to produce a verse that jesus is the archangel, i provided 1 thessalonians for you where jesus himself shall decend with a shout using the voice that he possesed, that is the archangel's voice, definately if if he wasnt an archangel he cant use the voice. now you just adjusted your question again now to provide a verse that shows that jesus is an angel(or beign reffered as angel/messenger) i did that again on page28 (im also tagging the obvious forgery of criminally imputing (error) without the consent of the translator (as 1(#j)) you were fighting the bible! but i have discharcged my duty on providing bible verse that refer to jesus as angel in mal 3:1, im not the one that wrote it, you even went ahead to imput something not added from the author; see it again; malachi 3:1 Douay-Rheims Bible Behold I send my[b] angel[/b], and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel [/b]of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts. Darby Bible Translation Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the[b] Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts. 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 1:34am On Jul 12, 2013 |
benalvino and others reading the tread! you dont need to agree with this below, but, its the real truth; [size=18pt]Further Proofs That Shows Jesus As An Angel Before He Came To The Earth[/size] 'Thy Fellows' (definition; persons of equal ranks, position or background, a peer.) Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. obtained a more excellent name than than the angels because of inheritance, not by nature, but only by inheritance, and besides, that name was obtained, having obtained the superior name, the new name overrides the former one beign reffered to as angel, because he is been promoted Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. There Is Only One Archangel Who Was Micheal Before He Came To Be Born As Human And Inherit A Name That Made Him Better Than His Fellow Angels,(If You Doubt This, Nowhere In The Old Testament That Christ Was Called Gods Son, Even Jesus Christ Was Never Mentioned In OLD testament , Except Where it Was Decreed (in psalms)Or Predicted That 'Someone Will Be Called My Son' But That Person Identity Was Unknown) “For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee” Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? God never said in affirmation to the would-be Christ while in heaven before he came to die on earth that, “you are my son’ I begotten thee Christ then was not entitled Neither the angels and the would be-Christ(the arch angel) before he came to die on earth was qualified to be called ‘my son today I have become your father’ While in heaven before he came to die on earth, would-be Christ was reffered to by God the father himself as ‘messenger’ or angel,(malachi 3:1) which further destroy the claim that jesus was the same being that is God. It was after when the would-be Christ came to die on and during his baptism by john that the pronouncement was made that; Luke 3:22 "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." A date (today) was set on that day as to the commencement of when Christ was called by God as his son here on earth; 'You are my son; today I have become your father.”' Hence; Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Answer; To the first of the angel, who was obedient and agreed to be transformed or born to a human couple, which as at the time he was called 'my son' by his father for the 'first time ever' he was already born as a human beign on earth (having took the form of man, and cannot be reffered to as angel as at the time he was on earth even though he was before) and thereby obtain or inherit a name that is better name only during the process and the period that he was human but later died and was exaulted above his peers having obtained a name better than that of the angels his fellow peers(formally) who were later subjected to him because he was obedient to the father who appointed him 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 2:01am On Jul 12, 2013 |
benalvino now, having show all these show us bible verse that says that father, son and holy spirit are the same beigh that is God. waiting pls. |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 8:09am On Jul 12, 2013 |
BERNIMOORE: benalvino you are a JW... JWs believe Jesus is an angel... Now they try to prove it by using some bible verses... But if jesus was an angel it will be Sweet for them to translate malachi 3:1 as angel it that is what is there... But nope it is not so they put the right thing there which is messenger.... you Choose Darby bible and duay bible that made a wrong translation... its funny how your own bible that all your doctrinal beliefs are coming from and every other bible doesnt agree with the 2 bible you quote from... from the new world translation 3 “Look! I am sending my messenger,*+ and he must clear up a way before me.+ And suddenly there will come to His temple*+ the [true] Lord,*+ whom YOU people are seeking, and the messenger*+ of the covenant+ in whom YOU are delighting.+ Look! He will certainly come,” Jehovah of armies has said.+ and check every other bible... angel doesnt exist in that passage... [size=18pt]Result = fail... you fail to prove Jesus is an angel[/size] |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 10:04am On Jul 12, 2013 |
Bernimoore: you dont need to agree with this below, but, its the real truth;the statement above just shows he cant prove it... from the way he started it shows he has no strong evidence... Bernimoore: obtained a more excellent name than than the angels because of inheritance, not by nature, but only by inheritance, and besides, that name was obtained, having obtained the superior name, the new name overrides the former one beign reffered to as angel, because he is been promoted Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: By nature he is God... he wasn't a servant! He made himself nothing and took the form of a servant(MAN... not even angels) he went from the nature of God to that of humans... thy fellows are his apostles other messengers like Elijah, Abraham... Philippians shows you he is not at same league with the angels... but he took the nature of Abraham and other apostles... john 1:1-3 He was in the beginning with God... he was the word... the word was God(not an angel) his nature is firm... For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?John 1:1, 2, "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched – this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father [in the beginning] and has appeared to us." add this to john 1:1-3 then add to Philippians 2:6 where he took the the nature of a servant(Man) How did God manifest in t he Flesh... Emmanuel [God with us] you know the work of the great John the baptist (Matt. 11:9-11) the zealous and privileged messenger who was sent to prepare the way of the Messiah according to the Word of God. 4 bible verses testify to this... below "For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet, saying, 'The voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make ready the way of the Lord, make His paths straight!'' (Matt. 3:3). "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who will prepare Your way; 3The voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make ready the way of the Lord, make His paths straight,'" (Mark 1:1-3). 'This is the one about whom it is written, 'Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who will prepare Your way before You,' (Matt. 11:10). "He [John the Baptist] said, 'I am a voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way of the Lord,' as Isaiah the prophet said,'" (John 1:23). it is very clear that he(john) was sent by YHWH to make road for Christ, as all four quotes above demonstrate. and the malachi verse you bring is one of the 4 citations that testify to this along with the quotes from Isaiah... [size=15pt]so according to you john the baptist is an Angel along with Christ in that passage...[/size] [size=18pt]Again attempt to tie Jesus with Angel = FAIL.[/size] further more Isaiah 40:3, "A voice is calling, 'Clear the way for the Lord [YHWH] 1 in the wilderness; make smooth in the desert a highway for [size=14pt]our God[/size]." who is the Our God here? a clue for you is to read john 1:1-3 then also look at this verses 2 Peter 1:1 … through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ Romans 9:5 the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Titus 2:13 the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ Mal. 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send My messenger(john the baptist), and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord [adonai], whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord [Jehovah] of hosts." [/color] This is telling you that Jesus is God with us... God manifest in the flesh... "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." analysis of malachi 3:1... I know desika use this to trouble ijawkid let me show you how... Mal. 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts." concentrate on the bold quotes above, John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way for Jehovah. Isaiah 40:3 says that John is to clear the way for YHWH isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. (Jehovah). In Mal. 3:1, it is God who says that "he will clear the way before Me." yet this is fulfilled by the arrival of Jesus who is the Word and the word was God... in john 1:1 [size=18pt]You Failed Badly[/size] Isn't the Verse you are bringing proving that Jesus is God and he is not an angel? to conclude this... the Bible says that John will clear the way of God, so it is Jesus who arrives on the scene. how come? Because Jesus is God... fully divine; that is, All the fulness of deity is in him Bodily (Col. 2:9). furthermore John 1:1,14 tell us "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." The fulfillment of John the Baptist as the messenger, and Jesus as God, clears the scriptures for us to comprehend. final Part... Jesus have so many names... some are same with the father... Michael is not one of the name used to describe Jesus... Michael is one of the princes... which means there are some like him... Jesus rank is Above that... King, Lord need i say more? 3 reference to michael in the bible out of the 5 he is only prince in rank... nothing more  see how you own book mess you up here... Who is the King of God's Kingdom? Jesus Christ. Jesus as King is greater than all human rulers and is called "the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords." (1 Timothy 6:15)" ("What Does the Bible Really Teach?" Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York: Brooklyn NY, 2005, p.77. My emphasis) Heb 1:5,13 NWT. For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: "You are my son ... with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: "Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet"? (my italics). this verse and the bold shows that not any kind of the angel... even michael... this question alone eliminate all kinds of angel... or every brand of angel... the bible also stated that the World is not subjected to any Angel... Answer; To the first of the angel, who was obedient and agreed to be transformed or born to a human couple, which as at the time he was called 'my son' by his father for the 'first time ever' he was already born as a human beign on earth (having took the form of man, and cannot be reffered to as angel as at the time he was on earth even though he was before) and thereby obtain or inherit a name that is better name only during the process and the period that he was human but later died and was exaulted above his peers having obtained a name better than that of the angels his fellow peers(formally) who were later subjected to him because he was obedient to the father who appointed himThe Above is total[size=38pt]CRAP[/size] 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 10:27am On Jul 12, 2013 |
BERNIMOORE: benalvino And you couldn't do same with michael and jesus... Bible calls jesus first and last alpha and omega GOD... Rock Redeemer Shephard King of Kings Lord of Lords and more... Yet you connect Jesus with Michael with no good evidence what so ever and Michael is One of the princes... thats his highest Title... and you are here telling me to connect Jesus with God... John 1:1... and the verses from My post above mal 3:1 further proves it... You didn't show anything and you are asking me to show... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by truthislight: 11:58am On Jul 12, 2013 |
benalvino: Ignorancy is a disease. The word Angel means messenger. Smh for ignorancy. |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 12:04pm On Jul 12, 2013 |
truthislight: are you an angel if i send you message? is john the baptist an angel from heaven? look who is talk about ignorance... malak is messenger angelous is angel... thats why your bible did not use angel there... learn to accept facts... your boy has been caught are you want to justify for him lol. |
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