PBundles:

That something is seen happening DOESNT MAKE IT LEGAL even if its done with officials. What I find strange and actually amusing is that you are arguing something that is KSA LAW! Its in their constitution! Must I, a non muslim tell you that the Basic Law as observed in KSA is based on the Qur’an and the Sunma which forms their constitution. Are you ashamed that its so, otherwise whats the big deal in saying its so, its not my fault. I a muslm but I dont have the responsibility of overseeing what a whole countries does. The mere fact that you fail to see or want to see what is a fact only confirms to me that in your HEART OF HEART know that its not right otherwise you wouldn’t be defending a lie tooth and nail.

There is NO separation of religion and state. The government restricts the establishment of places of worship and public training of non-Sunmi clergy. That the public ( mind you public) education system enforces the teaching of Islam and the textbooks are intolerant of Christianity and other religions. Must I as a non Muslim tell you what the job is of the mutaww’in. Why do the mutaww’in have as one of the duties the confiscation of Bibles and other Christian symbols. Must I really school you, really? You should be schooling me. Instead you are sending links and films not authorised by KSA.

WHY NOT DO WHAT I DID IF YOU REALLUY WANT TO GET EDUCATED AND CALL THE EMBASSY AND ASK THE SIMPLE QUESTION: ARE BIBLE BANNED? And you will hear what I heard: following the law strictly YES! But if you dont go about parading it in the open you should (he said to me should , but couldn’t guarantee) have no problem. I cant guarantee that you will be allowed to bring other religious material in though including bibles. Soon you will try and convince me I didnt have the conversation.

I know your argument is that there are Christians living there, but its tolerated. The true letter of the law according to the constitution is it ILLEGAL.

The truth is that KSA on one hand abide by it when its good for them ( do you know the business dealings they have with the western world, which makes it all the more hypocritical when they arrest and persecute Asian (mainly Filipino, Indian, Sri Lanka etc) workers for breaking these religious laws and dont say anything to a Brit or American.

By the way, the below mentioned was on Wikitravel. I would recommend that you send an email QUICKLY to the KSA embassy informing them about the blatant lie mentioned so they can rectify asap. We wouldn’t want people to think that they KSA actually enforce the below mentioned.

Religious items for religions other than Islam, including Bibles, crucifixes and any religious literature, are technically forbidden, although these days items for personal use are generally ignored. However, anything that hints of proselytism is treated very harshly, and the muttawa often bust illicit church assemblies and the like.Public observance of religions other than Islam is technically a crime in Saudi Arabia.

Something tells me though, you wont. I wonder why. Just because one stands by a false fact and screams and stamps their foot, doesn’t make it true. Sometimes the truth hurts, so what, just live with it. We didnt make the rules, we just have to abide by them.

PBundles: If this is true, that other religions are to be respected, then WHY ARE BIBLES NOT
ALLOWED IN CERTAIN ISLAMIC COUNTRIES (ie
The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia). I may be
wrong but is there any country that bans the
Quran?

PBundles:
This is interesting but Im sorry to burst your
bubble, but its illegal in KSA. I would rather you
quote the KSA government and not an
unauthrised website and YT film.Freedom of religion is neither recognized nor protected
under the law and is severely restricted in
practice. According to the 1992 Basic Law,
Sunni Islam is the official religion and the
country’s constitution is the Qur’an and the
Sunna (traditions and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad). Just because something is tolerated doesnt mean its allowed.

sino:

Sir, i don't really see the lie i am defending here, personally, i have a lot of issues with KSA and the way they practice the sharia, i am not hiding from the fact, i guess you do not understand my stance so i'll try and reiterate my position.
Initially you said this
Which i respond to with a link showing that indeed you can bring in the Bible without hassle here is the link again
http://
www.muslimspeak./2008/07/16/
muslim-urban-legends-the-saudi-bible-ban/

On your second question about Qur'an ban, i'm also not sure, but the french placed a ban on the face veil in public places, hijab/headscarfs in public institutions and wants to broaden it to headscarfs in private sectors too. Here is the link
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/01/french-veil-ban_n_2992642.html
Can you call this freedom of religion? Are they being respectful to Islam? Are they being tolerant?

Thereafter, you came up to post the saudi constitution(i guess) which you didn't provide a link to(although i think it's from wiki) and posted this:

If this is the constitution you are alluding to, then it doesn't in any way ban the bringing in of the Bible. Please help me out, provide proof for the explicit banning of bringing in the Bible for personal use since you know the constitution of KSA more than i do. If you tolerate something, then you've allowed it na
Is Freedom of religion ristricted? Yes, can you bring in the Bible for personal use? Yes, can you bring in the Bible for proselytising? No.

Hope you can understand my stance now?

Dewze:

you only posted alink about someone's opinion and interpretation of that KSA law. This interpretation is a bit skewed because it is clearly stated there that the bible is prohibited, just like narcotics and small arms. Does it then mean tht if you want to bring in narcotics and small arms for personal use it ll be allowed? Pls make it clearer for me if there is something I am mistaking here.

I suppose If it is allowed by law to bring in the bible for personal use it ll be stated in a clause in their constituition. Constitutions as I know it try to avoid ambiguity as much as possible for the sake of personal interpretations, like the one I see here.

Paschal007: It makes no sense. I don't see the reason why anybody should be jailed for burning a piece of book.

PBundles: dont feel like calling the embassy huh? Wouldnt that have been the easiets thing to do and prove me wrong?

PBundles:
To save us the back and forth all you have to do is call. Call the embassy and ask the very simple question like I did. I was told ITS AGAINST THE LAW TO BRING A BIBLE and then relay to us what you are told. Also from a legal standpoint if you tolerate something, NO you are not allowing it especially if there is a law about it. Ask any lawyer, if there is a law broken and authorties choose not to enforse ( hence tolerate) its doesnt mean the law doesnt exist, which is your point and i wrong.

PBundles:
I can truly understand your confusion, as many Muslims whom I work with also didnt know. They said the said thing, but I see Christians in KSA etc etc. Then I say the same thing just call the Embassy. Later I see them stating that they frankly didnt know. Im still surprised that a confessed Muslim as yourself doesnt know that the constitution of KSA is the Qur’an and the Sunma. Your asking me to provide a link Your Imam wouldnt be happy with you as you should know this as a fact. I challenge any muslim on this forum to prove otherwise. The link as I mentioned is unauthorised.

Ok you are afraid to call, lets do something else: Show me a citation or statement from any KSA official stating you are free to bring Bibles into KSA and that will settle it, ok. A statement ot link, not a film or link from an unauthorised person. YOU WONT FIND IT. IT DOESNT EXIST.

PBundles:
On the French issue, correct me if Im wrong but they banned the veils NOT THE QURAN and by the way you still havent told us if any country bans it. Um but you also know that its banned in Turkey to wear such in banks right, even for Muslims. Ive been to Turkey for a period for my work. I dont agree with teh French banning, as I feel that everyone has the freedom to wear what they want, but since you rose the question, may my wife a non muslim wear what she wants in KSA or anyother muslim country: NO. Every muslim country has as its base Sharia and the women who are guests must abide by their rules and dress codes. This is from first hand information as I travel frequently with my wife. If one argeues that well these countries are Muslim, why the fuss when Christian counries say in these countries you must abide by our rules. Lets imagine for a second that Christian dominted countries all imposed a dress code and said to Muslim women, when here dont were anything on your head because we have as base the Bible, what would be your reaction. I have nothing against you or your religion, so lets get that straight, but is the hypocrisy that I have a hard time swallowing. You insisit that your rules are followed at your domains, OK, but when the other side wants to impose their wishes ( which are not that strict when you compared them to the what Muslim countries impose on non Muslims) you scream foul. I have long wondered, if you are unable to practice your religion in the way you see fit then why even think of going to these countries? Why go to France, the US, UK etc. everyone knows that the Middle East is richm why not simply go there? I ask this in respect and not to disrespect you in any way.

sino:
Well i just finished speaking with a representative in Abuja KSA embassy, when i asked her if i could bring in my Bible to KSA, she replied(and these are her words, "definitely you can, why not?" then i further said i have been hearing confilicting report on that on which she told me to wait so as to confirm, she spoke to another person in arabic(which i overheard) and the person said "injeel, it's one of our books" she also told me same thing. I hope that has cleared the air?


Yes, i called i confirmed, it is tolerated, allowed, you can bring it in, it's not illegal!


One thing i know for sure is that, if the saudi constitution is based on the Qur'an and sunnah, then you cannot find anywhere written which would prohibit the ahlu'l kitab from bringing in their scriptures or banning them from practicing their religion. From history of the prophet(SAW) he lived with christians and jews in medinah...Muslims are instructed to protect their house of worship even during war etc.

Allah (SWT) says, "let there be no compulsion in religion..."(Q2vs256)
Also He(SWT) says "...to you your religion and to me my religion"(Q109vs6).
So bra, i find it queer that you are insisting that the constitution of KSA is the Qur'an and Sunnah hence the ban on bringing in a bible.

I said also that i am not sure of any Qur'an ban as well.
What is the hypocrisy there? KSA has rules and regulations, they say this is what they want and allow in their country if you can tolereate it then come, if you can't then look for some place else!
The hypocrisy i see here is the westerners and the french who claim freedom of this and that and then turn around to restrict the freedom of Islam. Homos are free to get married and adopt a child while a muslim woman cannot put on a veil or headscarf to work and in public places?! A woman can put on provocative cloths(mini skirts and tight blouse) to work while a muslimah cannot put on what she feels comfortable in to work?! If you can't see the hypocrisy in that then...

And FYI, the bible encourages the hijab and modest dressing...you are at liberty to go confirm

sino: ^ I didn't ask for a name, what do i want to do with her name...

This is the number, you can call too...+2347098221442, my call time was, 10.26am, 2mins 56secs

hikmoj: im afraid,4 such a filthy tin should come out of u.in case of moses story, dat one is found in christians'book we neva beliv in dat.all d messengers 4rm Allah hav grades & musa (moses)was among d highest grade.we didnt beliv he could descend so low 2 d extent of smashing d precious laws Allah gave him.may God 4giv u & everyone of us

PBundles: If this is true, that other religions are to be respected, then WHY ARE BIBLES NOT ALLOWED IN CERTAIN ISLAMIC COUNTRIES (ie The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia). I may be wrong but is there any country that bans the Quran?

golpen:


This is the simple illustration. You would appoint a teacher, after series of interview, who you think will teach your students the right thing. I don't know about the bible ban in Saudi, but if that's the case, Saudi-arabia is an islamic state and even the unborn knows that, so not allowing the bible into their country is their choice as an ISLAMIC state.

On the other hand, France is a secular state, an HIJAB has been banned, homo marriages have been encouraged with other inhuman acts. What is your comment on that?

sino:

In fact ehn, the concept of "thou shall not judge" in christianity is just beyond me. But Islam allows killing of people in d name of Allah as a quick way to enter heaven and be rewarded wit 70 virgins

Another example is a woman who is provocatively dressed, they tell you, christianity is in the heart, "thou shall not judge"... A woman who is dressed Islamically, they say, they are pretenders, they do a lot of bad things and they go on to give you their personal experiences...

To me, it's just one word; HYPOCRISY!

Instead of them to acknowledge the sentence as a welcome development and a deterent to others, they are here spewing rubbish.

We muslims hold in high esteem our Religion, we are advised to respect other people's beliefs and to deal with people justly.

Dewze:

my own opinion is this.
If you choose to conveniently give excuse for KSA by asking others to accept the fact that it is an Islamic state, then it is fair tht you should also accept the fact that France is a secular state and shld not condemn their homosexuality laws.

golpen:


This is the simple illustration. You would appoint a teacher, after series of interview, who you think will teach your students the right thing. I don't know about the bible ban in Saudi, but if that's the case, Saudi-arabia is an islamic state and even the unborn knows that, so not allowing the bible into their country is their choice as an ISLAMIC state.

On the other hand, France is a secular state, an HIJAB has been banned, homo marriages have been encouraged with other inhuman acts. What is your comment on that?

golpen:

I am not condemning their homo laws because it is compatible with some religion aside with Islam, but I'll condemn it with my words because it is anti-Islamic. Anyway, encouragement or banning of homo acts is their choice as a country, benefiting some set of people or religions. The question is; Why should Muslims be prevented from wearing what is compatible with their own religion in a secular state of high democracy?

golpen:

I am not condemning their homo laws because it is compatible with some religion aside with Islam, but I'll condemn it with my words because it is anti-Islamic. Anyway, encouragement or banning of homo acts is their choice as a country, benefiting some set of people or religions. The question is; Why should Muslims be prevented from wearing what is compatible with their own religion in a secular state of high democracy?

Dewze:

I do sincerely appreciate your stance.

I do not know for sure why France has these laws but I personaly feel tht they are more a protectionism law than a discriminatory one. As a christian, If I had my way as a Government I will first of all ban the use of any christian symbol (be it the cross or what evr), before going to ban other religious symbols (charity they say begins at home). Christ never created the cross, the church did. I believe the use of any symbol or object in worship is pure idolatory.

N.B. The cross has also been banned in government offices and public places in France. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

golpen:

I'm sure you went to look the word 'secular' up in the dictionary, forgetting the use of words sometimes go beyond the literary dictionary meanings.

Secularity in this sense meaning non-religious is a state formed NOT on religious basis, therefore several religion is allowed to be practised and according to the definition of democracy and fundamental human right, a man in such a place has a right to his religion. Nigeria for example is a secular state and what would be your reaction if churches are banned in Nigeria.

I think you should be the one to check your words very well before submitting it. If reading it slowly is what you do before understanding your own written words, then I'll guess you did not go through that routine on this.

If you ask muslims to stay away from france because you think they may feel not accepted, then are you definitely requesting muslim french go on EXILE?...

I think you need help!!!

PBundles: No I didnt look it up to be frank. I took a poli science/ethics class way back when to complete my minor credits during my undergrad in 95, but thats a different matter. Secular doesnt mean religons livig together as you put it but the fact that the state seperates religion and doesnt use it as its basis for governing, primarily to ensure that ppl are given the freedom to be free and NOT fall under any religous stipulations.

No one is asking you to be exiled as to be exiled would be for one to be bannished, but simply if you have issues with certain cultures or governments, whereas you have the freedom to live where they would be respected, the choice seems clear. The French govermnent as a government has a right to impose laws that they feel protect their views and culture just like KSA does. An old student chap of mine, who converted to Islam did just that. He didnt like the situation he was living in the UK and moved to Dubai where he is more than happy.

golpen:


What I mean is that because the french state is secular (not founded or governed on a religious basis), you'll agree with me that we have different people of different religions living together in negligible rations, unlike places like the vatican or an islamic state where you tend to have vivid ratio of some particular people religious wise to some very minute set of people practising the other religions. In that words, being free in a secular state, stretches to freedom of practising one's religion of choice. I would also condemn the act, if churches are banned or nuns are banned from walking on the streets, claiming it is protectionism. The 'freedom' as we put it has been denied some set of people, ragarding their religion.

But the question is; how do you ask a female citizen of france to leave her country of birth for another land unplanned, because she is denied to wear what comports with her religion?!! Isn't that EXILE?

PBundles: I guess the same way you would ask a christian born Saudi to get with the program or leave (or arent they also citizens), capiche. Probably not. Others must conform to your understanding, pray tell if you would try and conform to anothers. and that my friend is the problem that is being seen with Muslims and non muslims. I dont know how much you have travelled, but I have been around mainly due to my work and it true, travel is education. You see how the other side lives and you realize its not black and white but mainly grey.

The vatican is not a country though, an Islamic state is. In terms of Ratio do you know the percentage of Muslims living in Europe that were not born there or 2nd and 3rd generation? They make up the largest. If you remove that, if im not mistaken its not even 5%. when you factor the group I mentioned in its about 15%. So in your mind it would be better if these countries simply said we are Christian states so its not allowed, then you would see it as fair? No you wouldnt, then the compliant would be why switch from secular, not that that will ever happen as Europe has seen the turmoil of Religious Dominnace ( The Spanish Inquisition). Even the US have felt the brunt of religous dominnace in the 1800 (witch hunts) and will never allow that to happen again.

I have said that religion has been the biggest cause of wars and differences and as such remains the opium of the people. You want to see peopl fight and kill themselves, throw religion in the mix.

I love the scene in X when he goes to Mecca and proclaims, wow I saw white people there but all along thought that by hating the white man I was hating the devil. The western society you put down is the same one that has given you so much too.

golpen:


Why would I ask a christian to leave the country of her birth?! Yes I'm aware the vatican is not a country, but it is the only christian religious society I know of. I don't think there's any christian country in the world, that is why I have used it as my case of study.

And yes I was aware of the RATIO when I talked about it, but the fact is that no matter how small this particular set are, since the society does not stand on a religious ground, they are allowed their own environment amidst every other of their entitlements. That is what makes the ratio negligible, compared to a society whereby you immediately feel odd no matter how many you are, once you are not of the religion the society has been founded. If the world should agree like I'll agree with you that religion, being seen as man's only way to reach his creator, continues to hold an important factor in humanity, then why is it not respected in the free state?, lke it won't be tampered with on the other side.

I really don't like to argue this over again. I'm a seafarer, so I've had a wide travel experience also.

BetaThings:

You too go and try and burn "Because i am involved" or "There was a Country" in the South East, you will be needing a requiem mass!

PBundles: I quote you: compared to a society whereby you immediately feel odd no matter how many you are, once you are not of the religion the society has been founded. so very true..... I think you have spoken for many non Muslims. For the good order I dont want you come away with any ill feelings and I dont want you to feel that Im trying to dis you im not. This is a free world and I beleive we have the right to beleive or NOT beleive in whatever we like. This holds true for Muslims, Non Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Boedhist and the Atheist. The freedom I cherish should be granted to others in the like manner and form with no prejudice. We also have the right to agree to disagree and that is what I love about the western society.

golpen: ....made them enjoy the equal civil rights entitled to the muslims. And that is how it has been everywhere where there's an Islamic system of government.

Dewze:

seriously?