tpia@:


just seeing this.

my post you quoted, was for kwangi.

i am so sorry dear brother,

the response is energy filled, i thought i have lost you already. i had been expectant. the mix-up made me felt like "all labour lost" if one of my co-discussants suddenly see reason with a cynist after all we have both uncovered right from my day-one on nairaland. It can really feel terrible to lose a close ally on a course like this so sudden.

i don't enjoy the guy [kongi], not because he shared different view as mine, but he see everything from a very different perspective altogether, he prefer the Yoruba bashing by the Igbo to sharing "traditional intelligence" for us to see what could be possible. Yoruba bashing can not replace "Igbo history," of course i know everyone would not become traditionalist, albeit young mind should engage productive ends, and where other tribes are involved it should be more of building bridges and not lending voice for hate going on.

Meanwhile, i don't see the Igbos bashing Yoruba offline, they all co-habit like normal human being as "neighbours" and "customers" and even if they insult one another in their languages, it is in the passing and perishable, it is not recorded anywhere it is a private affair and should be understood as healthy gossip, everybody does that.

but when Yoruba bashing becomes timeline game of comradeship, you will expose your hate for your neighbour and you are not really secure doing that. you cause your neighbour to hate an innocent Igbo/Yoruba person entirely instead of an "invisible" you who is the cause of another person's suffering. I'm sorry to say this, someone was angry because Igbo flaunt money, is it every Igbo that does that? Even there are Yorubas who admire Igbo for doing that and we have someone who dislike Igbos on that.

I don't however think those people were speaking for the Igbo race, they were only exposing their frustrations, personal vanities or qualities. Such bring you to the mud like them, you frustrate them when you are not like them since that's their game.

once again am sorry for the mix-up, meanwhile you miss a lot along the line, metaphysical and myself had been slugging it out and he has accepted that not only were the ancient Yoruba Hebrew speakers as he has he earlier opined, but they were of Hebrew or Israel descent as were Canaanites. the crux now is the Apex race that he has introduced, it's deja-vu all over again, let's be prepared to start over again. May you live in an interesting time.

Oh, I might be wrong about the Bini attire then.

I never said the attire and linguistic influence are evidence that there was some 'interbreeding'. The 'interbreeding' part of my comment was an independent observation. There is some evidence that slaveship crewmen 'bedded' women on the coast. In some places, like bonny, the offspring were killed. In some places, they were apparently allowed to live.

And at least one itsekiri king fathered a child with a Portuguese woman.

So yes, I think there was some interbreeding. On a very small scale though.

Radoillo: Oh, I might be wrong about the Bini attire then.

You are.

I never said the attire and linguistic influence are evidence that there was some 'interbreeding'.

I guess you didn't mean to say that, but the way your post was written, it comes across as if that is what you were saying. But thanks for clarifying.

So yes, I think there was some interbreeding. On a very small scale though.

I don't doubt that there was a little bit of that, but wearing a European hat (all sorts of objects obtained in trade were worn by some groups without any "interbreeding" being necessary) or borrowing a European word isn't evidence of that. Even some of the usage of European names has completely different origins than one might think (I'm not saying that some of these names aren't due to "interbreeding" - some of them are - but others were adopted for different reasons).

To everybody who has been posting continually in this thread, I recommend reading from page 269 to page 273 of the 1857 book Central Africa: Adventures and Missionary Labors in Several Countries in the Interior of Africa, from 1849 to 1856 by Thomas Jefferson Bowen. The book is easily findable online for reading or download with a simple search. I recommend reading that section because it might become clearer after reading some of the linguistic "correspondences" that Bowen describes between the Yoruba language and random words from an array of very diverse languages that most of the apparent linguistic connections you guys have been putting forward are mere coincidences, and that one could do the same thing that you guys have been doing (finding some corresponding words) with other languages that are not in any way "Semitic", "Afro-asiatic", Greek, or Latin, if they had sufficient knowledge and time to do so.

Although Bowen takes a stance that is somewhat similar to that of some posters on this thread (but his stance is colored by racial biases and a racially based "Hamitic hypothesis" view of Africa) about non-African origins for some aspects of Yoruba societies, when one ignores that author's bias/outlook, and looks at some of the far flung examples he gives of correspondences on their own merits, I think it becomes obvious that many of these correspondences are mere coincidences that have no deep linguistic significance, and are not evidence of a real/significant connection. I'm not saying that there aren't a few legitimate/real correspondences - there probably are - but it seems that most really are just coincidences. In that small section of his book, Bowen did much of what is now being done on this thread, but he extended his gaze over a wider selection of languages than only Semitic, Afroasiatic and Mediterranean ones and was still able to find the same kinds of supposed linguistic "correspondences" and "connections" merely by trying hard enough.

That said, while several of the ideas/claims discussed in this thread come across as somewhat outlandish (just my personal opinion, I mean no offense), some of them are intriguing regardless and the thread has been an interesting read.

Exactly! if one looked hard enough, one would find enough linguistic (even cultural) 'evidence' to link Ibibios to the Chinese, the natives of Alaska and the aborigines of Australia!

And if Ijebus are descendants of the Jebusites, anf the Igala descendants of the Gallas of Ethiopia, perhaps the Ngwa came from Ngwa in Guangdong province in China. *shrugs* Who knows? Its all about similarity in names, yea?

prexios:

meanwhile you miss a lot along the line, metaphysical and myself had been slugging it out and he has accepted that not only were the ancient Yoruba Hebrew speakers as he has he earlier opined, but they were of Hebrew or Israel descent as were Canaanites.

true, i missed a lot of the discussion because i didnt really read the posts, but i dont usually get involved in "hebrew" arguments since its not something i've looked at.

i prefer viewing the ancient middle east context as a whole demographic, not just a particular one. However, thats just me, and i admit i really dont know much about that school of thought.

MetaPhysical:

No i was not pointing fingers, sorry the example is too direct.

Prexios, what is IWA? Let's start from there.

Iwa means way, character or manners.

Physics and Radoilo,

Before reading the suggested book, in response I would like to say that these correspomdences are far too close in spelling, meaning and sense to be dismissedbas "accidental". These are evidences of functional contacts in an ancient past not attributable to trade or religious adventure of Europeans on African coast.

Gelede is a cult in Yorubaland, but it also a theatrical play. If you screenwrite the drama andstory of Gelede and its counterpart Efe and you put on stage it could be mistaken for a borrowed Greek theater play. I point tobthis to illustrate that its not just words and sounds and letters but even in cultural rites.

I will readvand respond onbthe book and more on whatvyou said later.

topic contd

The Yoruba adopt 'aye', the egun adopt 'egbe' The two words come from the same phrase. the Yoruba use "Aye ati jo", the egun goes for the last word "JO" to mean "ye" or survive. So somehow the language is just like the ancients were picking the same phrase and making their coinages from it to enrich their language.

yoruba is a tonal language, but the usage of multiple meanings for words with the same spelling is rather intriguing.


for example,

aye is earth or world/society, could also mean life, lifespan, generation, etc.

compare to greek aion [eon] which is currently used to mean a billion years, but in ancient greek, means life or lifespan

aion as a noun:

Aion (Greek Αἰών) is a Hellenistic deity associated with time, the orb or circle encompassing the universe, and the zodiac. The "time" represented by Aion is unbounded, in contrast to Chronos as empirical time divided into past, present, and future.

He is typically in the company of an earth or mother goddess such as Tellus or Cybele, as on the Parabiago plate.


Roman Empire

This syncretic Aion became a symbol and guarantor of the perpetuity of Roman rule, and emperors such as Antoninus Pius issued coins with the legend Aion, whose female Roman counterpart was Aeternitas. Roman coins associate both Aion and Aeternitas with the phoenix as a symbol of rebirth and cyclical renewal.

Aion was among the virtues and divine personifications that were part of late Hellenic discourse, in which they figure as "creative agents in grand cosmological schemes." The significance of Aion lies in his malleability: he is a "fluid conception" through which various ideas about time and divinity converge in the Hellenistic era, in the context of monotheistic tendencies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aion_(deity)

while we're on this, we should also look at why the yoruba words for within and outside, are similar to the english form. Are they loan words from english?

yoruba: inu meaning in or within


yoruba: ita meaning outside, as in ex/extra. Note, yoruba language does not have the letter X.

MetaPhysical: Physics and Radoilo,

Before reading the suggested book, in response I would like to say that these correspomdences are far too close in spelling, meaning and sense to be dismissedbas "accidental". These are evidences of functional contacts in an ancient past not attributable to trade or religious adventure of Europeans on African coast.

Gelede is a cult in Yorubaland, but it also a theatrical play. If you screenwrite the drama andstory of Gelede and its counterpart Efe and you put on stage it could be mistaken for a borrowed Greek theater play. I point tobthis to illustrate that its not just words and sounds and letters but even in cultural rites.

I will readvand respond onbthe book and more on whatvyou said later.

Based on other information in his book, I'm sure Bowen would have agreed with you (regarding the statement about cultural rites), were he alive - although of course he probably would have opted for the (much simpler) explanation of saying that these resemblances and functional contacts were brought about by a few Semitic adventurers, rather than suggesting that the Yoruba migrated en masse from somewhere outside of Africa. But of course I am not really convinced by his arguments, and not in any way endorsing his arguments. I'm only pointing out that, in the course of his analysis of actual and supposed linguistic correspondences, Bowen inadvertently reveals something about this linguistic correspondence game - if one wants to, one can even find correspondences (in spelling, meaning and sense) with words used by groups as far off as Scandinavia, India and the Americas. This makes it obvious that this word correspondence approach probably isn't the most useful one to take to find "evidence" of the alleged non-African roots of the Yoruba culture or language. Constructing a convincing narrative where Semitic & Mediterranean word correspondences are proof of Middle Eastern or other non-African origins seems more difficult once one considers that one can find the same word correspondences with much further away and (more obviously) culturally distant linguistic groups - if one has the knowledge and time to do so.

tpia@:
while we're on this, we should also look at why the yoruba words for within and outside, are similar to the english form. Are they loan words from english?

yoruba: inu meaning in or within


yoruba: ita meaning outside, as in ex/extra. Note, yoruba language does not have the letter X.

Interestingly, mputa in Igbo is outside. Any connections with Yoruba ita and English extra?

Onunu in Igbo means a depression, the inside of a ditch. Any connection with Yoruba inu and English in or within?

[quote
author=Radoillo]Exactly! if one looked hard enough, one would find
enough linguistic (even cultural) 'evidence' to link Ibibios to the
Chinese, the natives of Alaska and the aborigines of Australia!

And if Ijebus are descendants of the Jebusites, anf the Igala
descendants of the Gallas of Ethiopia, perhaps the Ngwa came from Ngwa
in Guangdong province in China. *shrugs* Who knows? Its all about
similarity in names, yea? [/quote]

Thank you, my brother. They are just deceiving themselves. Instead of making Nigeria better, they are looking for coincidental similarities btwn the yorubas and the mediterreneans. Greek ko, Jebusite ni. I no blame una, na ASUU strike cause am.

[quote
author=MetaPhysical]Physics and Radoilo,

Before reading the suggested book, in response I would like to say that
these correspomdences are far too close in spelling, meaning and sense
to be dismissedbas "accidental". These are evidences of functional
contacts in an ancient past not attributable to trade or religious
adventure of Europeans on African coast.

Gelede is a cult in Yorubaland, but it also a theatrical play. If you
screenwrite the drama andstory of Gelede and its counterpart Efe and you
put on stage it could be mistaken for a borrowed Greek theater play. I
point tobthis to illustrate that its not just words and sounds and
letters but even in cultural rites.

I will readvand respond onbthe book and more on whatvyou said later.
[/quote]

As a christian, i beg to differ. Weren't all humans together before God confused their language?
If you don't want to look at it from a biblical perspective, all humans irrespective of race or skin colour belong to the same specie. If you are familiar with geography, you will discover that all humans live together before the oceans starting creating large divides btwn landmasses.

Radoillo:


Interestingly, mputa in Igbo is outside. Any connections with Yoruba ita and English extra?

Onunu in Igbo means a depression, the inside of a ditch. Any connection with Yoruba inu and English in or within?

You can start a thread on the subject, for people to look at that with you.

tpia@:


true, i missed a lot of the discussion because i didnt really read the posts, but i dont usually get involved in "hebrew" arguments since its not something i've looked at.

i prefer viewing the ancient middle east context as a whole demographic, not just a particular one. However, thats just me, and i admit i really dont know much about that school of thought.

it did exist, and it is one of the earliest guesses of native Yoruba dating back to Crowther. commentators on vocabulary of the Yoruba by crowther equally speculates similarity between Yoruba poetic formation and that of Hebrew in the 19th century, all these claims have been around before our time, but it has not really been particularized as such.

MetaPhysical:

Prexios,

Would you like us to explore the root of Hebrew from its Biblical occurrence?

The Bible opens with the Hebrew word "BERE". In KJV this was translated to mean "IN THE BEGINNING".

Now, you say that Hebrew is derivative from "IBRI".

I want you to examine the root letters in both words, in other words, strip their vowels and leave just the two remaining consonants, B-R.

Lets step away from this root for a moment, we will come back to it. You are forcing me to dance too close to the threshold here.

Science says matters are divided into "living" and "non-living" things. Thats because science is yet to acknowledge the primal essence of creation - duality, paired and opposite.

Everything is alive and animated. All matter posess the flash of God. Everything must be two, only GOD can be ONE!

Only things that are dead are those which cannot be transformed to change state. There is nothing created by GOD which has been decreed to stay unchanged. Look to the sky, look to the sea, look on earth and look beneath earth, every matter is ordained to follow a orbit and a cycle of its own creation nature. Therefore science seeks to mislead when it teaches that all matter are either living or non living.

So what is matter?

Matter is anything which posesses in its integral form the privilege to exist within the full spectrum of the orbit assigned to it in creation.
Therefore, it doesnt matter how fierce a lion is its fierceness has an envelope and a signature. To tame a lion and subdue it you must first recognize its signature, but you cannot use its signature to bring it under control you must use a OPPOSITE of its signature to control it.

You dont use fire to tame fire, you use wind to tame fire. Similarly you use earth to tame water. This is the law of paired opposites.

Hyena has a bite jaw pressure per pound inch greater than any beast, yet people tame and domesticate it. There are certain things you can do with dog tongue and no dog will ever bark at you again.

So how do these things work?

We must go into the alchemy of "fire" and "stone". Im not going to talk about that but suffice to say that FIRE is the transformer or change agent and STONE is the transformed or change. I want you to always hold this thought in the back of your mind.

Lets go back to the roots of B and R.

B is nothing by itself but when animated to produce a spark or fire it goes into orbit. Whatever it touches multiplies.

R is also nothing alone, only GOD can exist alone and encompass all. Everyother thing must have a pairing. So it enters into orbit.
Whatever orbiting R touches is self-willed.

BR therefore will take the flavor of an intended or purposeful expansion.


In Yoruba,

Aburo - sibling (one's kins)
Abere - needle (pointer or guide to join more than one)
Ibere - beginning (self-start or creativity)
Ibere - question (self-inquiry or quest)
Obirin - female gender (self-split)


From Bible, each one of the following coincides with a purposeful era or regime of one entity pioneering an expansion.

Abram
Eber
Deborah
Hebrew


The BR in Hebrew has a far deeper and occultic meaning than what it appears to represent in literal value. One is expansion, the other is contraction.

Science will express this as a neutral effect, one cancels the other out! Again, thats because science is limited in its understanding of nature of creation.

Music will express it as a harmony, a beautiful union.

In esoteric arts its called a state of bliss, the point at which ying and yang lose material consciousness and is able to master and tame the beast within. This is the point where if you sit stirring into the flame of a burning candle you become the flame yourself and you are immune to the sensation of the flame touching on your skin.

This is the miracle of Abraham when he was thrown into fire by Nimrod but God shielded him and he came out whole, unburnt.

Ive stepped beyond my threshold, i need to retract my steps and stay a safe distance from these stuffs.

i have to say that's some sort of esoteric artistry.

I will keep the opposites at heart and the natural elements of fire and element you talk of, are fire and stone, you ask me to keep this at the back of my mind. that's quite an instruction, i will keep it someplace safe. And i know definitely that there are opposites.

But sharing valuable insight will not take you out of threshold. i consider your view as my "apologetic" since you are my alter ego. Your presentation is my presentation. our exchange point come to an intersection.

tpia@:



Iwa means way, character or manners.

thats said, iwa also mean existence, and other tone it means driving and digging, it can also mean front, as in siwa-seyin, that is back and forth.more so it can mean coming and another word for quest.

PhysicsQED:

Based on other information in his book, I'm sure Bowen would have agreed with you (regarding the statement about cultural rites), were he alive - although of course he probably would have opted for the (much simpler) explanation of saying that these resemblances and functional contacts were brought about by a few Semitic adventurers, rather than suggesting that the Yoruba migrated en masse from somewhere outside of Africa. But of course I am not really convinced by his arguments, and not in any way endorsing his arguments.

the Yoruba regarded themselves as migrants, they claim that they came from Orun, in their own native traditions. were they migrants? the answer is yes. Often, we don't approach the story from external source, we allow the words to point us to a fact. what is migration in Yoruba? Irin-Ajo. who are migrants? "O-rin" then how is Yoruba history connected to "irin"? we have it as "Owonrin", which is awon-orin, meaning "the emigrants." then in Yoruba traditional record, owonrin is Ifa precept, and if you find out more about it, it tells you of Yoruba ancestors.

PhysicsQED:
I'm only pointing out that, in the course of his analysis of actual and supposed linguistic correspondences, Bowen inadvertently reveals something about this linguistic correspondence game - if one wants to, one can even find correspondences (in spelling, meaning and sense) with words used by groups as far off as Scandinavia, India and the Americas. This makes it obvious that this word correspondence approach probably isn't the most useful one to take to find "evidence" of the alleged non-African roots of the Yoruba culture or language.

the Yoruba did not just invent their words based on whims and caprice of God-know-who, the Yoruba words are describing things they identify. You have not heard that from anywhere before, its my own scientific discovery. Yoruba describe everything it identifies. As such, it is not a game per se, because if you fail in one slot of a game, the whole thing fall like house of cards. frustration set in.

omi- it breaths, shakes vibrates, unstable.[water]
emi - beathing, breath, life, shaky.
Eja- it is brittle, fall apart, cuts easily[fish]

A lot of things have to be wrong before Yoruba word is proved wrong as not identifying what it identifies. this language has been around before our time, it is the witness we have of our past, and i believe in its efficacy. it is an "evidence" to me and some of its words are codes. it is my cultural bible/history book. what are we going to use when we write off the most readily available resource as language?

Because Bowen was wrong doesn't mean i am already wrong or will be wrong with Yoruba lexicon, maybe Bowen was not Yoruba. then i am Right than Bowen was as a native user of Bowen polemics. i can see clearer than he does of tendencies of my mother tongue.

PhysicsQED:
Constructing a convincing narrative where Semitic & Mediterranean word correspondences are proof of Middle Eastern or other non-African origins seems more difficult once one considers that one can find the same word correspondences with much further away and (more obviously) culturally distant linguistic groups - if one has the knowledge and time to do so.

of course that is possible, but when you have like torrents of information that point straight to some explicit traditions that are foreign, what do you do? for instance, the Yoruba regard ifa as "omo inajoko-majerun" [Peter Fatomiloa]. the user of that phrase was not its originator, in fact he may never has examine what it means, but if you attempt splitting it, it simply means "son of a fire burning bush not consumed" this is not a case of "word match word" scenario,it is idea match idea and thats something very different.

It is a description of a familiar story. if the storyline happens to be your book and someone use it this way, wont you be tempted to sue such for copyright? before you sue such a person, you will fist do some due dilligence investigations. now that's all that allies on this thread were doing.

You find that it is the available cultural information that establish the tendencies, and not the wishes or deception of those on this thread that was at work as chiamaka01 suspects. You can't help but think likewise when the information at your disposal is of such orientation. the thing is, Yoruba by itself have indigenous interpretations of what we claim as having Mediterranean correspondence, not matchmaking of similar words per se, but similar thoughts trhat forms the identiy of some ancient people.

PhysicsQED:

Based on other information in his book, I'm sure Bowen would have agreed with you (regarding the statement about cultural rites), were he alive - although of course he probably would have opted for the (much simpler) explanation of saying that these resemblances and functional contacts were brought about by a few Semitic adventurers, rather than suggesting that the Yoruba migrated en masse from somewhere outside of Africa. But of course I am not really convinced by his arguments, and not in any way endorsing his arguments. I'm only pointing out that, in the course of his analysis of actual and supposed linguistic correspondences, Bowen inadvertently reveals something about this linguistic correspondence game - if one wants to, one can even find correspondences (in spelling, meaning and sense) with words used by groups as far off as Scandinavia, India and the Americas. This makes it obvious that this word correspondence approach probably isn't the most useful one to take to find "evidence" of the alleged non-African roots of the Yoruba culture or language. Constructing a convincing narrative where Semitic & Mediterranean word correspondences are proof of Middle Eastern or other non-African origins seems more difficult once one considers that one can find the same word correspondences with much further away and (more obviously) culturally distant linguistic groups - if one has the knowledge and time to do so.

Physics,

Thank you for introducing it into record but the purpose of this thread is completely different from what you have pointed out in Bowen's book.

Bowen is talking about literal meanings. In other words, if I use the Yoruba word "bimo" (childbirth) in a statement, it can be expected to be the cognate of "bibi" in Fulani, or "bin" in Semitic tongues. Bowen has taken a linguist approach to explain it. He concludes that the words carry the same sense, which is a cognitive response and therefore conceptual. His narrations, comparisons and conclusions left out the functional aspect of the letter-combinations and their spiritual applications in the native culture.

Some of his word are comparisons are as far-off from their mark as Dierk Lange's attempt in matching Oyo kings with Assyrian Kings.

For example, in one of his comparisons he tells us "ehin" in Yoruba is "back" in English. That's inaccurate.

English has back, behind, past, aft to express events which in relationship to "time" and "space" is swept away. It is also used anatomically for parts of body that in relationship to the "vision" cannot be eyeballed.

Yoruba has ehin and ikoja to express relativity of "time" and "space" to real time opportunity and application. Ehin is used exclusively in anatomical reference.

In his interpretation of "ehin", it corresponds correctly with "behind" and incorrectly with "back". This is a technical error and I wonder if it had a religious bias since Bowen was doing missionary work and could perharps here had intended to lay a standard for a more sinister intent in Biblical contexts when converted or interpreted into Yoruba language. Similar to how Esu was standardized as attributes for negative virtues in character.

Another example to highlight that the direction and intent here on this discussion thread is totally different from Bowen's and, by extension, your stance on language correspondence is his comparison and interpretation of Yoruba "eiye" to mean English "bird".

I don't know how much I can stress this that English language is dimensionally abstract, it is applied conceptually to everything. What I mean by this is that English language gives to its speakers and natives an interface or a portal through which their humanity can observe, analyze, utilize and record everything outside the self.

On the other hand, Yoruba language is dimensionally concrete. It is functional and real. Yoruba gives its natives and speakers the embodiment to feel, see, hear, smell and taste nature within their humanity. There is no separation between self and nature, we are one with nature. The thought of observing, analyzing, utilizing and recording nature is foreign to us. We only need to study the self and we understand nature.

What we are doing here is examining the contexts of Yoruba letters, the words, sounds, and because we are speaking English not Yoruba, it is difficult to fully express the intended meaning in the spirit of the words. Our reference to Greek and Latin cognates seem to work in closing the gap in attenuation so that Yoruba words can be expressed in writtenbEnglish for better understanding. A very good example of that is Agboniregun and Aboregene/Aborigene or Owuro and Aurora. Afterall English itself evolved out of Roman, which came out of Greek/Latin. So we went to the root!

If our exercise here is merely to find correspondence in words, West Africa is sufficient for us to get a full list. The objective is different from that.

I do want to go back and share knowledge on the eiye/bird mis-application.

Eiye in Yoruba should be equivalent of Eye in English, and not bird as Bowen concluded.

Chiamaka01:

As a christian, i beg to differ. Weren't all humans together before God confused their language?
If you don't want to look at it from a biblical perspective, all humans irrespective of race or skin colour belong to the same specie. If you are familiar with geography, you will discover that all humans live together before the oceans starting creating large divides btwn landmasses.

This knowlege is a constant, Yoruba philosophy ackwoledges the universality of mankind.

We are discussing variables on this thread. Yoruba has a signature brand which no other ethnic group in sub-sahara posesses. It's a differentiator and is valuable economically, politically, culturally and ecologically. Where did this brand come from? This is our pursuit.

You might counter and say every other ethnic group can make the same claim. True. Then they should open their own thread to explore that interest. This one is specific to Yoruba, not the entire humanity.

"If our exercise here is merely to find correspondence in words,
West Africa is sufficient for us to get a full list.
The objective is different from that."

-metaphisical.

That's the simplest possible explanation.
The elders have spoken.

MetaPhysical:

This knowlege is a constant, Yoruba philosophy ackwoledges the universality of mankind.

We are discussing variables on this thread. Yoruba has a signature brand which no other ethnic group in sub-sahara posesses. It's a differentiator and is valuable economically, politically, culturally and ecologically. Where did this brand come from? This is our pursuit.

You might counter and say every other ethnic group can make the same claim. True. Then they should open their own thread to explore that interest. This one is specific to Yoruba, not the entire humanity.

this shows that knowledgeable people are involve, this may be their mouth piece to a deep seated quest and one can not just wish their quest away as wasteful engagement after all. Is it a sin to argue what is inconceivable to another person?

prexios:

i have to say that's some sort of esoteric artistry.

I will keep the opposites at heart and the natural elements of fire and element you talk of, are fire and stone, you ask me to keep this at the back of my mind. that's quite an instruction, i will keep it someplace safe. And i know definitely that there are opposites.

But sharing valuable insight will not take you out of threshold. i consider your view as my "apologetic" since you are my alter ego. Your presentation is my presentation. our exchange point come to an intersection.

Lol.

Radoillo: You all want to hear the truth? Here it is:

No ethnic group in Southern Nigeria can trace its origin to anywhere north of the West African Sahel region. If any Semitic trader/explorer ever wandered as far south as Yorubaland, it is highly improbable that they came in numbers large enough for us to speak of Yoruba origins and culture in terms of immigration of Semitic-speaking peoples. Any Semite who managed to have wandered into the area probably found Yoruba-speaking people already well-entrenched there, and simply disappeared in the mix.

How did you conclude that your position is the truth? Were you around at the said time? how did you find your answer? you can always have direct ready answer as long as you allow your emotions to do the work. then its just ayes or no question, no details around right or wrong to determine what is truth. Meanwhile it is no longer tenable as proof as long as you can allow any Semite to ever wander into the area. by that one drop, you accept the position of others who agreed that such happened, although you are only making minor what others claim to be major.

[quote author=Radoillo]
But there's no evidence that a Semite ever came so far south!

so all we have been sharing were figment of the imagination? how then would anyone ever be able to make sense of fact stuck in rubbles? brother all we have been sharing are traditions around Yoruba origin, nothing more.

Radoillo:
There are undeniable evidence of Afroasiatic influence on Yoruba culture and language. But it is more likely that they came from Islamised people from Hausaland and Nupe, and not from any Canaan. Hausas still speak an Afroasiatic language, anyway.

How did Hausa came to speak Afroasiatic language? if you have come to agree with this, it is your responsibility to do little expositions to trace how the language evolve from its Afroasiatic origin.

Mind you, the Hausa tradition is not complete without reference to its primordial link to Yoruba in its "Hausa Bokwoi, Banza Bokwoi" tradition. It may not be acceptable account in Yoruba, but the tradition strive to tell you the historian that Hausa have common origin as Yoruba.

However, that does not mean the Yoruba did not pick some words from the Hausa, such as albassa, Tatase, etc. the Yoruba don't often naturalize their borrowed words, they only nasalize it or except they have their contributions in the word formation.

Radoillo:
Most of the 'linguistic' 'evidence' that has been advanced on this thread would simply be laughed at by professional linguists. (Obatala is Oba of Atlantis, etc etc. LMFAO! WTF)

That does not mean you don't have a gem shared by each and everyone sometimes, if you have an assumption and you are afraid to share it, it serves you no purpose, in fact it slow down your memory needed for other profitable issues. But when you are courageous enough to share, you learn something totally different. If the linguist is laughing, what is his work? "Baa ba radan, aa fodide soro" if our linguists are laughing, then we are working already.

Radoillo:

Let's consider this picture:

Europeans came to parts of Nigerian Coast between 15th and early 19th centuries to trade in slaves. There's evidence that there was some 'interbreeding'. Some Kalabari and itsekiri people among other groups carry portuguese, dutch, french and british blood from that era. Portuguese Catholic influencence is still evident in the attire of the Bini nobility. Portuguese words still occur in the Itsekiri language. The Ijaws and the Efiks still bear Anglicanized names from that Period. Briggs and Blue-jack. Pepple and Allison. Duke and Henshaw. Bassey and Cobhams. European hats are still ubiquitous throughout the Delta as part of the traditional dress.

Now imagine that someone assembles all these 'evidence' and postulates that the Nigerian Coast was peopled from Europe between the 15th and the early 19th centuries. Would that someone be correct?

If the names of the people such as briggs and henshaw and bassey and cobhams confirms they were Europeans who discover a virgin coast and colonize such places in some remotest past, i.e. 3000 years ago, it would be useful to postulate that as evidence of migration, after all, people have always existed alongside the coast and mariners have been known as far back as the time frame, and such concept was not really foreign to the source claimed.

The imaginary limit of someone who have contrary opinion may not really hold waters except better explanation is found for reasons why seafaring or names and thought system with affinity to what was claimed still exist. these names are function of culture which is ingrained in the peoples way of life.the same way of life is what make them different from others, can one borrow from others what make him difference?

for instance, the Yoruba have a prayer point that says,

"wa shegun ota wa reyin Odi"

what this mean is you will be victorious against your enemy and you will see the destruction of wall of fortification. where did the Yoruba pick that idealization of a man having victory and crushing the wall of fortification at the same time? was it copied from the Hausa or one wandering Semite told them people live in wall cities and to finish them, you have to crush the wall?

If you think it is possible, then the Yoruba normally refer to outskirt of a town as "eyin Odi", meaning behind the walls, meanwhile there were no wall in the most ancient Yoruba towns, meaning they have an idea of walled cities, where their ancestors came from, but in Yoruba land, they have no enemy to hide from, so they don't border create one. if you now assume or proclaim that Yoruba has once witness the fall of a wall of Jericho, is it going to be far fetched? the language made all the propositions possible.

.

Most of the 'linguistic' 'evidence' that has been advanced on this thread would simply be laughed at by professional linguists. (Obatala is Oba of Atlantis, etc etc. LMFAO! WTF)

this "la" in obatala needs further study.

@ topic

does the "la" refer to deliverance, salvation, or divide?

eg igbala- deliverance vs la omi- divide or open

tpia@:




this "la" in obatala needs further study.

@ topic

does the "la" refer to deliverance, salvation, or divide?

eg igbala- deliverance vs la omi- divide or open

Obatala is a contemporary of Olokun, according to Eji Onile, an Ifa verse. Obatala means, oba ti ala, meaning "white tunic king" Obatala is like Aron and Olokun is like Moses. The La you talk of rather applies with Olokun.

i dont see how la would apply to olokun because olokun is olu okun, not ola okun (?).

can you explain how you arrived at your conclusion?

descriptions of obatala list him as a contemporary of oduduwa (thats the version on wiki).

although, i havent studied the legends in depth.

oba ti ala would mean a king who we saved, or a king who saves/delivers.

could also mean a king who we divided.

ala can mean white tunic, granted.

^^^

Prexios,

I want to share a knowledge with you but it might be unecessary I suppose knowing that you are not a newbie to online forums and the intrigues but please pardon the redundancy anyway.

You have initiated and continously fed this thread so far now in its 11th page. Radoillo has nothing positive to contribute here, neither does Physics. We are engaged in an exercise which is beyond their comprehension. It takes somebody with a firm grip on Yoruba sounds, letters, oral history, myths and culture to get a hint and appreciate what is going on here. These people want to contain this work within the framework of language study, what we have here is far above and beyond what linguists can understand.

Radoillo opened with "you all want to hear the truth?"; and he pretty much wrapped his truth up in language assimilation, ignoring arts, rites, sound, cults, manuscripts and myths.

Its like dipping hand in a treasure chest and pulling out a dead toad and thereby condemning the whole vault to destruction.

They see a dead toad, thats how far their insight can carry. The contributors on this thread see treasures worth cleaning up and salvaging for future use.

You have my encouragement and support to continue on this quest. Trust me, we have not even scratched the surface yet, there are far more materials uncovered than what has so far been shared. When we get to looking at common sounds and letters between Hausa and Yoruba I will disclose, with proofs, that Yoruba did not borrow words from Hausa.

There is a belief because of proximity and the fact that Islam flowed North to South, that the Arabic sounds in Yoruba were loan words from Hausa. Im here to burst that long held belief.

I will advise you do not entangle yourself with Radoillo or Physics. Give them one or two responses and end it. It is not difficult to ignore unproductive posts.

We must move on...