Lol

Howmanage: I get scared whenever i see these type of assertions that are not based on fact. Scared that it will end up in some western newspaper trying to make their readers laugh. Igbos are really Jews, Yorubas are really Egyptians, please you people should try na. Nigerians are already known as 419 capital, we don't need to add Laughing Stock of the World too... How embarassing that some dont have any self belief/esteem always got to try and tag themselves to other nations who won't touch you with a stick

So good you list everything you are not proud of here. What are you proud of as a Nigerian? There are whites that earnestly wish they were blacks from Nigeria. Don't let stupid fear of what white people will say kill your discovery, your future can be better-off if you have sound idea in this world regardless of where you are from. Suzan Wenger, Ulli Baier were whites. The world (white/black) will be willing to help you succeed if you can proof your mettles, that's it. Thanks.

ladionline:

o gba o, hnmmn... lati 'joojoyi, o sese so nkan eyokan ti mo ri pe o really make sense ni, mabinu, adupe.
But sha, ma fi itan Yoruba se weapon to maa fi fight colonial master.

eshe

Thanks for that observation. Sudan is Arabic for the sub-sahara, it has to do with vegetation, or geography. Odan also has to do with vegetation or geography in sub sahara, where Yoruba is situated. My usage of the word in this perspective is etymological, that is, how the word could have evolved from two users who were familiar with it, but later from different locations.

I agree with you that ibadan is Eba Odan, that's what we were all told to believe. But the essence of research is to go a bit deeper and see what may not be obvious. we all love to echo what we were told, but nobody stops us from being a voice rather than echo. it is a matter of choice.

Meanwhile, Ibadan is not a recent people in Yoruba history, the clan has always been, but our present collection of history can limit us, it should not however limit us, or what is the essence of research? in-gathering of forgotten facts or traditions. Is it too far fetched or anachronistic to place Ibadan at the inception of Yoruba or something, we shouldn't be limiting our self just to proof someone wrong when it may be possible.

If you assume "ijaiye" means fight to survive, you are right, but it is not the only right answer. The Yoruba talk of the fight between Olofin Ijaiye and Elekiya. It could be peoples name or historic ideal that later become eponymous. Ije [eat] in Yoruba is Du in Egun, Aye [life] in Yoruba is Egbe among the Egun. if you make Ije to become Oje in Yoruba, then it becomes Odu [Odun, something sweet in Yoruba] in Egun, and that reminds of Oduduwa.

Now some words are camouflaged, "Ai-on-gbe" is the source of the word egbe. If you stretch it, you get "aye on egbe re" meaning the "matriarch and her contemporaries." The Yoruba variant is "Aye ati-jo" meaning the matriarch and the congregation. The thought of these people have similar origin, with one seemingly relying on the thought formation of the other to stabilize or make the same point.

The Yoruba adopt 'aye', the egun adopt 'egbe' The two words come from the same phrase. the Yoruba use "Aye ati jo", the egun goes for the last word "JO" to mean "ye" or survive. So somehow the language is just like the ancients were picking the same phrase and making their coinages from it to enrich their language.

For instance, if you say "Kilo Sele", the egun says "Amu Ejo". Ejo is to explain what happen with Yoruba, "Ejo" and "sele" is like "exist" and "originate the earth" So when the Yoruba says Kilo Sele, they were also saying what originate the earth, and when the egun says the same thing in their language, they were saying what came to existence? some sort of thought sharing. What will be your conclusion if you find this out?

Egbe i.e. re - do also mean life or divison in Ekiti like Egbe Oba

tpia@:
^isnt odofin a title?

i dont think its unique to lagos.

it exist in Ekiti.

PLEASE IT WILL BE GOOD TO ALSO LOOK INTO OTHER YORUBA TRIBES SUCH AS EKITI; FOR EXAMPLE ABBA MEANS FATHER BOTH IN HEBREW AND EKITI-YORUBA A TRIBE

I think using OYO Yoruba as the basis for history itself limits our scope. Having read all these posts, ,I found out that Eastern parts of Yoruba may be the eye opener because the ancient Ife kingdom may have lots in connection with those places more so many of those Hebrew or kemet words I have read before are much closer to their dialects than the Oyo - Yoruba.
Of importance to ur scholarstic knowlege are these ancient Kingdoms:
1. The Ooyelagbo or Agboniregun era
2. The Obatala , Oduduwa, Orisha ,Olokun,Oluweri etc era
3. The Ogun, Oranyan era
4. The ancient Ijebu kingdom
The ancient Ugbo Kingdom
5. The Ekiti euology that says omo owa(the child of owa), omo ekun(son of warrior)(see Sasha rap song).The question is who was that Owa?this is also the popular title of many Ekiti town
6. Adimula of Ife. was that the real name of King Oduduwa? if true that can make Oduduwa a title

mandarin: I think using OYO Yoruba as the basis for history itself limits our scope. Having read all these posts, ,I found out that Eastern parts of Yoruba may be the eye opener because the ancient Ife kingdom may have lots in connection with those places more so many of those Hebrew or kemet words I have read before are much closer to their dialects than the Oyo - Yoruba.
Of importance to ur scholarstic knowlege are these ancient Kingdoms:
1. The Ooyelagbo or Agboniregun era
2. The Obatala , Oduduwa, Orisha ,Olokun,Oluweri etc era
3. The Ogun, Oranyan era
4. The ancient Ijebu kingdom
The ancient Ugbo Kingdom
5. The Ekiti euology that says omo owa(the child of owa), omo ekun(son of warrior)(see Sasha rap song).The question is who was that Owa?this is also the popular title of many Ekiti town
6. Adimula of Ife. was that the real name of King Oduduwa? if true that can make Oduduwa a title

I get your point here. I just thought about this too....many words from Eastern Yoruba axis that begins with 'U' were transcribed to 'I' in the Western and Central Yoruba axes. For example, Ule/Ile, Ufe/Ife, Ubo/Ibo e.t.c.

Could it be that the Yoruba at the Eastern Axis retained the original essence of Yoruba language? Were these people the most ancient? Did the earliest Yoruba ancestors spread out from this axis into Ife and Oyo? These questions require indepth studies because it appears not much was documented on the Eastern Yoruba peoples in research.

740megawatts:

I get your point here. I just thought about this too....many words from Eastern Yoruba axis that begins with 'U' were transcribed to 'I' in the Western and Central Yoruba axes. For example, Ule/Ile, Ufe/Ife, Ubo/Ibo e.t.c.

Could it be that the Yoruba at the Eastern Axis retained the original essence of Yoruba language? Were these people the most ancient? Did the earliest Yoruba ancestors spread out from this axis into Ife and Oyo? These questions require indepth studies because it appears not much was documented on the Eastern Yoruba peoples in research.

What we need is a baseline. What is your minimum claims for these truths? We would like to explore the minimums and build upon them as additional truths are revealed. If they cannot sustain then they are invalidated.

What Eastern Yoruba oral histories would you like us to look at? Start from the beaded crownhead.

MetaPhysical:

What we need is a baseline. What is your minimum claims for these truths? We would like to explore the minimums and build upon them as additional truths are revealed. If they cannot sustain then they are invalidated.

What Eastern Yoruba oral histories would you like us to look at? Start from the beaded crownhead.

People from that side should kindly furnish us with some eulogy/oriki of towns and palacesbut I know the Ekiti are generally omo owa omo ekun( and I know a family that is...omo olodo ide lapo okun eyeeyo, omo ogede abula, omo adijo sannu....translations? don't know if am right but will be something like.... child of the seeker, child of warrior ...am lost, sorry)

Most times, i do come to this sort of crossroad. How do i solve the riddle? i will often gloss over both meaning, but i usually prefer to use or subscribe to the Yoruba interpretation over foreign match because i use to belief that first, my subject is Yoruba and the other language in consideration is the mirror of my idea of an interpretation. It often work perfect.

The mirror helps you to dress the word or idea with flowery language or imagery of the contemporary time even when what you are dealing with is ancient. Your need is, you must make the idea presentable in words, but you must as well be very responsible as not to throw caution to the wind, so the user can as well be pleased to find more of such by themselves and more so, you have the need to make your word sell, you shouldn't just fail at this as a writer or a researcher.

On Olodumare, my interpretation was Olodu-mare. I know some scholars and Yoruba speakers would say "Olodu omo are." That is a glaring stretch of the original. My interpretation was helped in this respect by my knowledge of the Ogu language. how? in that language, you have a kind of paraphrasing what the Yoruba idea express in the given word is. i don't know who is borrowing.

Their own version of Olodu-mare is Whenrhen-ghantoh: it means "struggling for survivors" literally. The words are wheren: struggle, ghan: survive, toh: father, person or people. Altogether it means one who strive to sustain the living. That at the background, you can understand when i find the courage to conclude that Olodumare is a match: Odu: struggle, mare:keep going, or continue. that to me is "One who strive to sustain continuity."

“Olodumare“----“eni to ni odu ti n re“ (He who have the unending oracle.. that which you can't find out)

740megawatts:

I get your point here. I just thought about this too....many words from Eastern Yoruba axis that begins with 'U' were transcribed to 'I' in the Western and Central Yoruba axes. For example, Ule/Ile, Ufe/Ife, Ubo/Ibo e.t.c.

Could it be that the Yoruba at the Eastern Axis retained the original essence of Yoruba language? Were these people the most ancient? Did the earliest Yoruba ancestors spread out from this axis into Ife and Oyo? These questions require indepth studies because it appears not much was documented on the Eastern Yoruba peoples in research.

In short, yes. Most Yoruba linguists would agree that central and eastern Yoruba is an older variant than the innovating "western" Yoruba of Oyo.

TerraCotta:

In short, yes. Most Yoruba linguists would agree that central and eastern Yoruba is an older variant than the innovating "western" Yoruba of Oyo.

Correct. I use to thing some languages are closer to the original language that Yoruba had long adumberate.

MetaPhysical: Allright, so we keep moving on.

We started out with the objective to useletters, sounds and oral history to trace roots and origins. We have made tremendous progress and the inputs are challenging but very insightful and educative. Let's keep the tempo going.

Next stage for me is to explore the functional meanings and significance of the sounds in the term "owuro".

What is the function of "ro", and what is the function of "wu"?

“Owuro"---morning
“owu"---cotton
“o ro“---soft

Meaning that which cushions the day..

mandarin:

Egbe i.e. re - do also mean life or divison in Ekiti like Egbe Oba

More like it, igbesi, as in igbe-si-aye also has the tact word gbe- lives or lift.

'Nobody' I've been trying to connect you but seems to be a problem here. I found something on "Arts in Ancient Ife, Birthplace of the Yoruba" (Suzanne Preston Blier)and found a whole lot as interesting.
My interests are:
1. The pre- Oduduwa times of Obatala(possibly the title of the Kingship thrones of the time)
2.Agboniregun - May be the name of the progenitor of the ancient land owners of which Obatala was the King or the royal house.
3. Obatala & oduduwa story like Esau and Jacob also looked like the taking over of headship position in forming a kingdom which may be after the reign and passage of Oduduwa passed again to Obatala lineage may be through civil strife and later the coming of Oranmiyan and was may be faced stiffed opposition after he was returning from may be battle of throne in Bini and founded the Oyo dynasty(just trying to link all these fragments)
I think the Ife Kingdom has to do with the Eastern half of Yoruba land of present northern fring of Ogun east ,Osun, Ekiti, Ondo and parts of Edo Delta and Kogi going by names mentioned which include the Igala areas. In Yoruba mythologies, places located within these axis were mentioned including migration patterns and orders of the Irunmoles
Places west of Yoruba land which formed the larger parts of the Oyo empire were in the latter parts of the Yoruba history while i think the eastern parts were more ancient.
I also think the Orisa and Oduduwa story may have to do with how Oduduwa overtook the era of the Orisha people or the Irunmole's through the palm wine drunken tales?
Now here is the weird thought :
I think Oduduwa was a concept of an era of merger of ideas, religion and groups and Oduduwa personae must have been the leader of the era just like the Obatala must have been the pre Oduduwa leader or ruler. Going by these names of Yemoja, Oluweri(seafearer?),Olokun showed that Yoruba may have had some sea fearing groups.
The final thought is, have we ever sat down to think about an ancient empire extending through the Sahara to Egypt as part of the old Kemet empire?
Please enlighten me

Well with all sense of humility, I can do what 'nobody' can do. While there is limit to what I will want to share right now, when i'm back in the evening, I will upload vital info on belltwelf OBATALA KING OF IGBO thread. I have it in my offline folda. I will simplify some of the puzzles, God willing to the best of my knowledge.

As for Orunmila*, this is what I have learn from Peter Fatomilola: "Orunmilala baba agbonmiregun, omo inajoko majerun" This simply means orunmila ... son of the fire that burn bush without consummation" Does that sound familiar?


Ifa's great icons
and their memorial titles:

Odu is Odu eleyinju ege
Orunmila is Orunmila baba Agbonmiregun,
Olokun is Ifa Olokun Asorodayo (omo inajoko majerun)
Agbonmiregun is ...Ewi nle Ado, Okikin tii meyin erin-ifon.

Edited.

ladionline: As for Orunmila, this is what I have learn from Peter Fatomilola: "Orunmilala baba agbonmiregun, omo inajoko majerun" This simply means orunmila ... son of the fire that burn bush without consumation" Does that sound familiar?

If you can supply the info now it will be to my pleasures.
Orunmila- what is the meaning?
He is the father or founder of Agbonmiregun, now what is Agbonmiregun? I know 'Ogbon' could means district or section in some dialects?
Could Orunmila also be the Ela?
I need more info please

ladionline: As for Orunmila, this is what I have learn from Peter Fatomilola: "Orunmilala baba agbonmiregun, omo inajoko majerun" This simply means orunmila ... son of the fire that burn bush without consumation" Does that sound familiar?

This is about Moses in the Bible. could he be the son of God who was in the fire or Moses who saw the incidence? I think Yoruba have a way of ascribing powerful energy comparison to their leaders e.g. omo ekun did not mean the person was a child of tiger but in comparison to the force of tiger. What's your take?

mandarin:

This is about Moses in the Bible. could he be the son of God who was in the fire or Moses who saw the incidence? I think Yoruba have a way of ascribing powerful energy comparison to their leaders e.g. omo ekun did not mean the person was a child of tiger but in comparison to the force of tiger. What's your take?

Well this exactly how fatomilola put it: ifa olokun asorodayo, eleri-ipin,... omo inajoko majerun. The witness of that event is Olokun, hence the name Olokungbajo, meaning "Olokun saved his contemporary" Now the people of ipetu-ijesha would say: awa la njudi nigba Olokun, awa lonje abori jagajigi. Awa londani ti ale eni nkoni, elegbe wa maitu o, aya gbogbo nso kule-kule.

.

ladionline: Well this exactly how fatomilola put it: ifa olokun asorodayo, eleri-ipin,... omo inajoko majerun. The witness of that event is Olokun, hence the name Olokungbajo, meaning "Olokun saved his contemporary" Now the people of ipetu-ijesha would say: awa la njudi nigba Olokun, awa lonje abori jagajigi. Awa londani ti ale eni nkoni, elegbe wa maitu o, aya gbogbo nso kule-kule.

You are so deep but translation will help me. Ifa olokun - corpus of the ocean diver or farer the witness of fate i guess!
warrior eulogy of the Ipetu Ijesa love that!
So what about Agboniregun and could Agboniregun be the aborigine of the Yoruba country who was the originator of Ifa while from your assertion, olokun could be Moses because he was carried from the sea!
Am kind of confused, more info pls

mandarin:

You are so deep but translation will help me. Ifa olokun - corpus of the ocean diver or farer the witness of fate i guess!
warrior eulogy of the Ipetu Ijesa love that!
So what about Agboniregun and could Agboniregun be the aborigine of the Yoruba country who was the originator of Ifa while from your assertion, olokun could be Moses because he was carried from the sea!
Am kind of confused, more info pls

Well thanks, the eulogy of Olokun is from the work of Mr. Ogunjulugbe, in the history of ipetu-ijesha. The Yoruba of old, the founding fathers were literates, but a time of decadence followed after the epoch of the ancestors. Meanwhile the indiginous scholars convert their written material to oral. They honor their hero Moses with the name of their sacred record, Ifa (drawn) Olokun (submerge or divide the sea), Asorodayo (who brought the word to rejoice with). The Yoruba migrated at the epoch of Orunmila, who a contemporary of Oduduwa. Now, Oduduwa was literate in Ifa.

Ifa has her own reformers after Olokun. Wait, Olokun is said to be 'eleri-ipin'. This means 'one who witness the division'. What division is that? If we understood Oluweri to mean the 'Lord of the sea', we wont have problem with '-eri' being sea (or river). Eleri-ipin may be another cryptic verbal picture for (Olokun)-ipin, that is 'eleri' is feedback from 'Olokun', and that both words mean the same thing. Ipin in this colocation is different from it regular usage, to mean lot or fate. Here it means 'division'. Right, eleri ipin is owner of sea-parting. This shows cognitive projection of a remote scholarstic tradition upholding its source to the third millenia. See also, Proverbs 616-19), 20-22.

740megawatts:

I get your point here. I just thought about this too....many words from Eastern Yoruba axis that begins with 'U' were transcribed to 'I' in the Western and Central Yoruba axes. For example, Ule/Ile, Ufe/Ife, Ubo/Ibo e.t.c.

Could it be that the Yoruba at the Eastern Axis retained the original essence of Yoruba language? Were these people the most ancient? Did the earliest Yoruba ancestors spread out from this axis into Ife and Oyo? These questions require indepth studies because it appears not much was documented on the Eastern Yoruba peoples in research.

The myth of ekiti states that Orunmila left Ife and was the founder of Ekiti, he had 16 children before going back to heaven.

That's why the patron Orisha of Ekiti is Orunmila.

If we take a look, Orunmila lived on earth many years before Oduduwa.

ladionline: Ifa has her own reformers after Olokun. Wait, Olokun is said to be 'eleri-ipin'. This means 'one who witness the division'. What division is that? If we understood Oluweri to mean the 'Lord of the sea', we wont have problem with '-eri' being sea (or river). Eleri-ipin may be another cryptic verbal picture for (Olokun)-ipin, that is 'eleri' is feedback from 'Olokun', and that both words mean the same thing. Ipin in this colocation is different from it regular usage, to mean lot or fate. Here it means 'division'. Right, eleri ipin is owner of sea-parting. This shows cognitive projection of a remote scholarstic tradition upholding its source to the third millenia. See also, Proverbs 616-19), 20-22.

Epic fail.

Orunmila is eleri-ipin and no one else

mandarin:

This is about Moses in the Bible. could he be the son of God who was in the fire or Moses who saw the incidence? I think Yoruba have a way of ascribing powerful energy comparison to their leaders e.g. omo ekun did not mean the person was a child of tiger but in comparison to the force of tiger. What's your take?

Omg! Ladi's statement has nothing to do with Moses.
I get how people's mind would be drown to Moses but it's just ridiculous to say Orunmila is Moses

In essence, Ifa is an attempt by the founding fathers of Yoruba to make compact the details of their oddysey through their quest for upland and rivers. They did have their recorder, the mouthpiece of the search party.

The mouthpiece of the search party in Yoruba is 'enu-owa', which is synonymous with eru-owa (Ijesha). Remember, Yoruba history is adapted to 'JOURNEY SYSTEM' The movements, i.e. 'irinkerindo' or igboke-gbodo. Ifa present this as 'owoh' (rovers) or 'owon-rin' (awon orin: meaning the emigrants). Ultimately, the precept of creation of 'Yoruba world' is recorded under the heading, 'IWORI-MEJI'. The main actors were OLODUMARE, (the Creator) ORUNMILA and, OKOKO-NIYELE.

mandarin:

If you can supply the info now it will be to my pleasures.
Orunmila- what is the meaning?
He is the father or founder of Agbonmiregun, now what is Agbonmiregun? I know 'Ogbon' could means district or section in some dialects?
Could Orunmila also be the Ela?
I need more info please

Orunmila means heaven-rumble-open or heaven opens
Ela is given as Ela omo Oluorogbo. or Ela Omoloju-Olodumare.
Another variant is Ela-Iwori. Ela is the child of Moremi, anyway.

That makes Moremi identical with Oluorogbo in Yoruba tradition.
Oluorogbo simply means Olu oro gbo: Eminent thinker of old.

Thanks.

ladionline: The mouthpiece of the search party in Yoruba is 'enu-owa', which is synonymous with eru-owa (Ijesha). Remember, Yoruba history is adapted to 'JOURNEY SYSTEM' The movements, i.e. 'irinkerindo' or igboke-gbodo. Ifa present this as 'owoh' (rovers) or 'owon-rin' (awon orin: meaning the emigrants). Ultimately, the precept of creation of 'Yoruba world' is recorded under the heading, 'IWORI-MEJI'. The main actors were OLODUMARE, (the Creator) ORUNMILA and, OKOKO-NIYELE.

Kings in Ekiti are called Owa, i mean titles. Now this Orunmila, what can you say about him?
what are the differences between Olokun, Yemoja, Oluweri and what about Obatala and who was Adimula of ancient Ife?
From your story its looking like the story of Moses for Olokun who witnessed ina to n jo ti ko jerun! was he called olokun because he was found on the sea and he parted the sea?
Please also expatiate on these three forces you mentioned